Creating A Reason To Rank Up

[Wolfssenger]

To any veteran player, it's no secret that warframe has littleto to no motivationfor to offer players who have already poured a substantial amount of hours into the game. The majority of the high mastery weapons are mediocre, and past mastery 8 there is literally nothing to look forward to but trades and extra sstanding/extractors.

I can't speak for everyone else, but as a MR14, I would love to be made to WANT that next mastery rank, something that makes leveling these crappy venka or sicarus because the reward is worth it, because at the moment I have no reason whatsoever to rank up.

How do we fix it? We all know that the sentients are coming. Make them mind numbingly, gut-wrenchingly, rage inducing hard. Make it NEED four(or more, raid material?) players with weapons and possibly frames with several forma, something you cant carry a dead weight through(or if not force of numbers, force people to be cunning/cooperative to defeat this enemy). Many of us would finally like a challenge that isn't staying in a survival for 7 millennia, and this is the perfect window to do that.

What would the reward be? Something along the lines of umbra weapons( or whatever you want to call/make it), a new set of new or revamped(akin to prime, in this case, ones who don't fit the prime theme) god tier(in line with current god tier) weapons. Weapons that require a special sentient resource, blueprint, or method to make that would require a high mastery or power level to craft and acquire( say mastery 8-10 to start with some Weapons requiring mastery up to 16 or 17).

Even this wouldn't be the whole solution to the problem but it would open up a world of possibilities and solutions.

This is radical I know, and i know it doesn't do much for new players, but it already has so much to offer new players, it can afford to reward its veterans a bit for sticking so long, and motivate players to ascend.

Thanks for reading this far, tell me what you guys think.

Edited July 29, 2015 by superfishy36

[Katinka]

How would requiring multi-forma gear encourage higher mastery?  I expect Sentients to be nasty but I don't follow that logic.

[Chub_N_Tuck]

MR system needs serious glance from DE some time. I don't know how, because this also is one of the numerous things that left untouched since 2 years ago. I made it to MR 19 just thinking of using weapons and trying them out. And I totally agree there isn't any other motivations. I want high MR to be something desirable and very rewarding. It might be too late to make it rewarding, but there can be more rewards introduced for it to be relevant.

 

However, allowing more forma to be added for weapons is far too late of a change at this point. There are many players who put quite a few formas to the weapons when they're not even rank 10 or are around there.

 

Also, it adds grindwall to the grinds. It's like grinding to be allowed to be grinding. Just like the Void, some people have to grind for keys to grind in the void. You're suggesting people need to rank weapons to be allowed to forma things, it's something hard to agree.

 

I think some cosmetic items should do the trick for now, because it won't add any disadvantage to the lower MR players. DE did make mastery sigil to show the MR of players, but there should be more cosmetics and customizations. There should be various types of them. And I also want more loadout slots.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Chuck_NoMiss

[Wolfssenger]

How would requiring multi-forma gear encourage higher mastery? I expect Sentients to be nasty but I don't follow that logic.

It's not just mastery but investment in your overall power, a reason to get really strong that isn't hours of survival. Tacking on a mastery rank on the weapons adds a reason to grind through crappy weapons to get to the some of the strongest weapons

[matrixEXO]

MR system is a dead system. There currently isn't any reason to rank up more than MR15 anyway.

 

One quick and dirty way is to make each Forma increase the MR required for the selected weapon by 1. This means a Supra at MR7 with 3 forma would be MR10. Downsides are that weapons with insane forma value (10+ depending on which nutcase wanted to spam forma their gear non-stop) would have ridiculous forma requirements. Also, it limits flexibility since forma is meant to allow more flexibility while increasing the MR would inherently limit forma usage and decrease said flexibility.

 

Another way would be to release weapons that are meant to be in the MR12+ category. These weapons would obviously be overpowered compared to the rest of the non-prime weapons out there but obviously meant to fit the MR category. The downside for this is that it may blur the line between prime weapons and non-prime weapons and may lead to stuff like non-primes just way better than primes in most situations, dejecting the need to farm for prime weapons apart from being mastery fodder.

 

One last method is weapon enhancement. Each weapon enhancement permanently increases a certain selected stat by a small flat amount (avoid scaling value as it screws the balance of old vs new weapons) but adds 1 to the required MR. The way this works is technically a win-win for both ends but a massive headache for the dev team to start coding since it means each and every weapon needs to go back to the coding stage to implement such designs.

 

 

EDIT: Forgot to re-write the downsides for having high MR weapons in the game.

Edited July 26, 2015 by matrixEXO

[matrixEXO]

It's not just mastery but investment in your overall power, a reason to get really strong that isn't hours of survival. Tacking on a mastery rank on the weapons adds a reason to grind through crappy weapons to get to the some of the strongest weapons

Except the really strong ones aren't tacked with the proper mastery rank; weapons like Boltor Prime and Soma Prime.

Edited July 26, 2015 by matrixEXO

[Wolfssenger]

MR system is a dead system. There currently isn't any reason to rank up more than MR15 anyway.

One quick and dirty way is to make each Forma increase the MR required for the selected weapon by 1. This means a Supra at MR7 with 3 forma would be MR10. Downsides are that weapons with insane forma value (10+ depending on which nutcase wanted to spam forma their gear non-stop) would have ridiculous forma requirements. Also, it limits flexibility since forma is meant to allow more flexibility while increasing the MR would inherently limit forma usage and decrease said flexibility.

Another way would be to release weapons that are meant to be in the MR12+ category. These weapons would obviously be overpowered compared to the rest of the non-prime weapons out there but obviously meant to fit the MR category.

One last method is weapon enhancement. Each weapon enhancement permanently increases a certain selected stat by a small and flat amount but adds 1 to the required MR. The way this works is technically a win-win for both ends but a massive headache for the dev team to start coding since it means each and every weapon needs to go back to the coding stage to implement such designs.

The second way is basically my entire posts purpose. But more than anything I encourage everyone to speak out about this, it's the only way things will change.

[Chub_N_Tuck]

How about this? The fact that you have ranked many Warframes and weapons should mean that you have gained much knowledge of weaponry and the rewards should be something along those lines. Stat buff can come into mind, but I'm skeptical on any stat buffs relating to MR yet.

 

There could be some different animations unlocked, since you have wielded more and more weapons the higher MR you are, and it should be reasonable idea to reward players to rank the weapons. Like, more animation sets that are unlocked by MR, but this time not based on Warframe themes, but based on the weapons. For melee, possibly more stances? Stances also really needs work since a lot of them only have 1 combo and so many combos are not really great either. See? Too many stuffs to be looked at again.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Chuck_NoMiss

[Wolfssenger]

Except the really strong ones aren't tacked with the proper mastery rank; weapons like Boltor Prime and Soma Prime.

Weapon balancing has always been a problem, but having those weapons doesn't mean you'll do well, what will make you strong is investments in mods and experience. For example, I went 60 minutes in a t4 survival with no god tier weapons( closest thing was my two forma vectis[ not even finished]) by sheer coordination and teamwork because we all understood each other's role because we were all experienced( MR11-15).

Using strategies like making priority targets, reviving and providing cover as a team is what really makes this game enjoyable at the higher levels( we were not in a party by the way, we were all randoms)

I guess my point is that just having the weapon won't make you win as I've seen so many times with these newer players.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

This: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/482694-the-master-forma-solution/

[Wolfssenger]

This: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/482694-the-master-forma-solution/

I dont think Forma alone fixes it though because the only real challenge atm is going hours in a survival.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

IMO you can't give mastery any importance until it actually has meaning. Right now it means nothing besides "who ranks up the most bad weapons". Until the entire concept of mastery is changed you can't make it more important; it will just take its flaws and force them down on everyone.

[Wolfssenger]

IMO you can't give mastery any importance until it actually has meaning. Right now it means nothing besides "who ranks up the most bad weapons". Until the entire concept of mastery is changed you can't make it more important; it will just take its flaws and force them down on everyone.

If you want to bring nihilism into this, the entire game isthat meaningless besides wasting time.

But that's not the point of this post, the point is to give people a reason to keep ranking up, and an enemy to use the rewards aagainst. This game caters to new players enough already.

[Valar.Morghulis]

Right now the the number of unavailable weapons because players think event weapons should be exclusive or they are on some ridiculous cycle on the void trader is a massive problem to any changes to the mastery system.

 

A new player starting today if they leveled up every available Frame/Weapon and completed every mission in the game would come up almost 2 mastery levels short of the "Veteran Players" who have been playing since day 1 and have every "exclusive/event/Vault Frame/Weapon".

 

IMO anything weapon or frame that is not openly accessible to the player base should not give mastery rank experience.

 

There are a number of weapons that have been removed from the games loot tables or where given out as special rewards that are not available anymore. Currently there are 15 alert Weapons only 1 have made a return, 8 retired weapons (4 from Market 4 Prime), just that is 23 x 3000 =  69000MR. If you add in the founder pack that is another 12000MR and the retied Prime Warframe that May or May Not be available again is another 12000MR. Thats a Grand Total of 93,000MR that is a full Mastery Level and most of another.

 

Pretty much if DE wants to do anything with MR they have to rethink the idea of Exclusive Content. Exclusive Content cannot be both exclusive and give Mastery Rank, it is simply unfair to any players making a new account today. So the have to make a decision leave exclusive content exclusive but remove the Mastery Rank Exp from it, or make the items available is some way.

 

Right now since Mastery Rank is as you described pretty worthless and meaning less so there is no "outrage" from newer players. However if they changed Mastery Rank to add power to the character there would be massive outrage and DE would be forced to do something.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

If you want to bring nihilism into this, the entire game isthat meaningless besides wasting time.

But that's not the point of this post, the point is to give people a reason to keep ranking up, and an enemy to use the rewards aagainst. This game caters to new players enough already.

No, I meant meaningless as in it asks you to do something that's counter to progression (find the old, crappy weapons you didn't bother with before and use them now), has no relation to skill, no relation to play time, and no relation to gameplay elements. In its current state it shouldn't be used for gating anything beyond what it already does. Until it gets an overhaul so that it relates to at least one of the above (progression, skill, playtime, gameplay--preferably one of the first two) it would only hurt the game to make it more important.

[-FV-Metheria]

As a potential passive bonus, Mastery will help crafting speed. Each rank in mastery makes things build 10% quicker. So as a couple landmarks with Forma as the thing we're building. MR 0: 24hr, MR 10: 12hr, MR 20: 8hr, MR 30: 6hr. I think we can all agree this would be nice, and isn't something you'd be too pissed about if you weren't interested in ranking up.

[Wolfssenger]

Right now the the number of unavailable weapons because players think event weapons should be exclusive or they are on some ridiculous cycle on the void trader is a massive problem to any changes to the mastery system.

A new player starting today if they leveled up every available Frame/Weapon and completed every mission in the game would come up almost 2 mastery levels short of the "Veteran Players" who have been playing since day 1 and have every "exclusive/event/Vault Frame/Weapon".

IMO anything weapon or frame that is not openly accessible to the player base should not give mastery rank experience.

There are a number of weapons that have been removed from the games loot tables or where given out as special rewards that are not available anymore. Currently there are 15 alert Weapons only 1 have made a return, 8 retired weapons (4 from Market 4 Prime), just that is 23 x 3000 = 69000MR. If you add in the founder pack that is another 12000MR and the retied Prime Warframe that May or May Not be available again is another 12000MR. Thats a Grand Total of 93,000MR that is a full Mastery Level and most of another.

Pretty much if DE wants to do anything with MR they have to rethink the idea of Exclusive Content. Exclusive Content cannot be both exclusive and give Mastery Rank, it is simply unfair to any players making a new account today. So the have to make a decision leave exclusive content exclusive but remove the Mastery Rank Exp from it, or make the items available is some way.

Right now since Mastery Rank is as you described pretty worthless and meaning less so there is no "outrage" from newer players. However if they changed Mastery Rank to add power to the character there would be massive outrage and DE would be forced to do something.

Three answers

1. Notice that I only said up to 16 or 17. I'd done the math already and what between archwing, primes and new weapons that Will be released, this will be achievable by anyone.

2. This game practically revolves around collecting(if you haven't seen the trading channel) and has since the early beta when i started playing. In any collection there are bound to be exclusives, lots of them. Deal with it, somebody either put more time in or got luckier than you, that's life. I wish i had a primed chamber( and I'm a sniper main) but i don't because i wasn't there for the event, but i don't cry about it.

3. Like it or not there is and should be a pecking order, what have those who've been here for 2 weeks done to earn their right to shape the game? Not to say that they should be neglected, but they can already at mastery 0( potentially, mastery 2 realistically) have access to all but two of the warframes in the game( Rhino is mr2 locked) and at over 50% of the weapons( and a hefty chunk of god tier end game weapons) in the game, after only 2 days of maybe an hour and a half each. That's not catering to new players enough?

A large part of this community is people who have been here a while and we want a reason to keep playing.

Edited July 27, 2015 by superfishy36

[Brosephelon]

I've heard this a lot and frankly I don't really want it.  Level gating in general sucks, and I don't like the idea that I'll have to run around trying to collect random weapons/frames that I have no interest in just to level them to 30 and get rid of them just so I can get/do X that I actually want.  

 

If there is MR rewards beyond 8, then they need to be "status" rewards and not weapon access, mode access, etc.  Things like sigils, armor, color pallets things that people can live without even if it would be nice to have.  

[Wolfssenger]

I've heard this a lot and frankly I don't really want it. Level gating in general sucks, and I don't like the idea that I'll have to run around trying to collect random weapons/frames that I have no interest in just to level them to 30 and get rid of them just so I can get/do X that I actually want.

If there is MR rewards beyond 8, then they need to be "status" rewards and not weapon access, mode access, etc. Things like sigils, armor, color pallets things that people can live without even if it would be nice to have.

That's the thing, unless they make some really hard enemy, the game is literally over at MR8, you have nothing meaningful left to achieve. Aesthetics are worth about as much as the number next to your name. There needs to be a reason to play, and isn't it only right that the highest level players should have access to the highest level weapons?

Also one thing that i should have mentioned earlier, this is a grinding game, if you don't like grinding( which you obviously stated), then leave.

[Valar.Morghulis]

Three answers

1. Notice that I only said up to 16 or 17. I'd done the math already and what between archwing, primes and new weapons that Will be released, this will be achievable by anyone.

2. This game practically revolves around collecting(if you haven't seen the trading channel) and has since the early beta when i started playing. In any collection there are bound to be exclusives, lots of them. Deal with it, somebody either put more time in or got luckier than you, that's life. I wish i had a primed chamber( and I'm a sniper main) but i don't because i wasn't there for the event, but i don't cry about it.

3. Like it or not there is and should be a pecking order, what have those who've been here for 2 weeks done to earn their right to shape the game? Not to say that they should be neglected, but they can already at mastery 0( potentially, mastery 2 realistically) have access to all but two of the warframes in the game( Rhino is mr2 locked) and at over 50% of the weapons( and a hefty chunk of god tier end game weapons) in the game, after only 2 days of maybe an hour and a half each. That's not catering to new players enough?

A large part of this community is people who have been here a while and we want a reason to keep playing.

 

You gave the stereo typical "I want to be a special snowflake" anwser that we normally see out of the self entitled "Founders". The reality is that its a game not life, it should be fair for all players. If the game wants to be taken seriously it needs to accomplish 2 major landmarks, competitive PvE and Fair PvP. The thing is for either to exist the game needs to be balanced and fair, telling people "deal with it" rather then seeking an answer is the problem with this community that perpetuates why this game has been on a slow steady decline of players. If you want a better game make it more appealing to new player not less.

 

If the game was balanced and fair they could make better bosses, they could make compelling systems. With a community that is more interested in keeping their toys to them selfs and telling players "deal with it" just proves your part of the problem not the solution.

 

Here is a fact for you that more successful developers already know "Exclusive Content is good for individuals it is bad for communities", every successful game in the industry is successful because of the strength of its community. Things like exclusive content are toxic to community it dives off new players and keeps returning players away because they feel like they have "missed to much". This is why every successful game limits exclusive content to cosmetics or convenience type items. 

 

So knowing that exclusive content drives off new players and prevents old players from returning, explain to the community how exclusive content is good for the game without using an excuse that "life is not fair"?

[Wolfssenger]

You gave the stereo typical "I want to be a special snowflake" anwser that we normally see out of the self entitled "Founders". The reality is that its a game not life, it should be fair for all players. If the game wants to be taken seriously it needs to accomplish 2 major landmarks, competitive PvE and Fair PvP. The thing is for either to exist the game needs to be balanced and fair, telling people "deal with it" rather then seeking an answer is the problem with this community that perpetuates why this game has been on a slow steady decline of players. If you want a better game make it more appealing to new player not less.

If the game was balanced and fair they could make better bosses, they could make compelling systems. With a community that is more interested in keeping their toys to them selfs and telling players "deal with it" just proves your part of the problem not the solution.

Here is a fact for you that more successful developers already know "Exclusive Content is good for individuals it is bad for communities", every successful game in the industry is successful because of the strength of its community. Things like exclusive content are toxic to community it dives off new players and keeps returning players away because they feel like they have "missed to much". This is why every successful game limits exclusive content to cosmetics or convenience type items.

So knowing that exclusive content drives off new players and prevents old players from returning, explain to the community how exclusive content is good for the game without using an excuse that "life is not fair"?

You're entire rant is about exclusive content but my idea doesn't introduce any exclusive content whatsoever, EVERYONE can reach mr 17. Do you read? I'm not even a founder btw.

[Valar.Morghulis]

You clearly can't do math and do not understand the community your pitching ideas to.

 

If you come up with a system that goes to mastery rank 17 then people who are mastery rank 18+ will want something as well. Other wise you will see one of them on the forums saying that "MR18+ should have rewards to", this means your only moving the "Mastery Rank is worthless" from MR 8 to MR 17. What good is a half baked idea that is not addressing the problem only delaying it, are you tired as the rest of us of DE giving us half implemented ideas?

 

So this means you need to develop a complete solution that also means you need to address certain problems with the current game design.

 

If your going to pitch a Mastery Rank idea you have to address the problems witch i can tell you is very unpopular. Your just a "veteran player" and your hostile to the idea when you start dealing with the "Founders" they are down right refuse to talk about it at all. Sadly at this rate DE is going to let the founders drive this game in to the ground, this is why the only direct composition to Warframe are just killing Warframe despite not being any were as much fun to play.

[Ancalaron]

To any veteran player, it's no secret that warframe has littleto to no motivationfor to offer players who have already poured a substantial amount of hours into the game. The majority of the high mastery weapons are mediocre, and past mastery 8 there is literally nothing to look forward to but trades and extra sstanding/extractors.

I can't speak for everyone else, but as a MR14, I would love to be made to WANT that next mastery rank, something that makes leveling these crappy venka or sicarus because the reward is worth it, because at the moment I have no reason whatsoever to rank up.

How do we fix it? We all know that the sentients are coming. Make them mind numbingly, gut-wrenchingly, rage inducing hard. If not be limited by mastery rank(via quest), make it NEED four(or more, raid material?) players with weapons and possibly frames with several forma, something you cant carry a dead weight through. Many of us would finally like a challenge that isn't staying in a survival for 7 millennia, and this is the perfect window to do that.

What would the reward be? Something along the lines of umbra weapons( or whatever you want to call/make it), a new set of new or revamped(akin to prime, in this case, ones who don't fit the prime theme) god tier(in line or slightly above current god tier) weapons. Weapons that require a special sentient resource, blueprint, or method to make that would require a high mastery or power level to craft and acquire( say mastery 8-10 to start with some Weapons requiring mastery up to 16 or 17).

Even this wouldn't be the whole solution to the problem but it would open up a world of possibilities and solutions.

This is radical I know, and i know it doesn't do much for new players, but it already has so much to offer new players, it can afford to reward its veterans a bit for sticking so long, and motivate players to ascend.

Thanks for reading this far, tell me what you guys think.

Yes please.  Weapons past MR 8 and MR exclusive skins/sigils/accessories 

[Wolfssenger]

You clearly can't do math and do not understand the community your pitching ideas to.

If you come up with a system that goes to mastery rank 17 then people who are mastery rank 18+ will want something as well. Other wise you will see one of them on the forums saying that "MR18+ should have rewards to", this means your only moving the "Mastery Rank is worthless" from MR 8 to MR 17. What good is a half baked idea that is not addressing the problem only delaying it, are you tired as the rest of us of DE giving us half implemented ideas?

So this means you need to develop a complete solution that also means you need to address certain problems with the current game design.

If your going to pitch a Mastery Rank idea you have to address the problems witch i can tell you is very unpopular. Your just a "veteran player" and your hostile to the idea when you start dealing with the "Founders" they are down right refuse to talk about it at all. Sadly at this rate DE is going to let the founders drive this game in to the ground, this is why the only direct composition to Warframe are just killing Warframe despite not being any were as much fun to play.

Slippery slope logical fallacy.

Even so, with the release of more weapons and higher mastery possibility, it can be accomodated. I'm pretty tired of your salt, if you don't like grinding games, or games that reward people that have supported them since their beginnings, go play league or something. Just leave please.

[Valar.Morghulis]

Slippery slope logical fallacy.

Even so, with the release of more weapons and higher mastery possibility, it can be accomodated. I'm pretty tired of your salt, if you don't like grinding games, or games that reward people that have supported them since their beginnings, go play league or something. Just leave please.

 

I have no problem with games that some grind and RNG, it is necessary in all games to make them good, what is open to debate if how much RNG and how much GRIND is necessary.

 

How ever telling people to "go play another game" because they don't agree with your opinion or shoot your down your idea for just being poorly conceived is just childish. I offered a differing opinion, bringing up real concerns of players have expressed over the years on the forms when threads like this appear in the past. However your option of not address any of them in context of your idea is to toss out platitude like "Life is not fair" are cop-out answer. How about this before you cook up a idea use the forum search tool and read what other people have purposed on the subject and how the community has reacted.

 

I like your self am a "veteran player", there literally are only 5-10 "exclusive items" outside of the founder pack that I do not have. On a personal level I don't have a problem with exclusive items as long as it is done correctly, Warframe has failed spectacularly in this department. This is mainly do to their efforts of keeping a small but extremely vocal minority appeased, as long as this behavior is happing the game is going to suffer.