Can We Please Have Some Sort Of Nerf/change To Multishot Mods

[Dipstick]

So many people misunderstood what the OP was getting at, and that is the fact that multishot is required, and expensive and required mods like serration, split chamber, and heavy cal all feel like ways DE is band aid addressing the enemy scaling issue while forcing us to use orokin catalysts and forma in most weapons.

 

What would be nice if multishot had some sort of trade off like it taking an extra ammo for that extra shot, kinda like it does in borderlands 2. If serration was a 16.5% damage buff instead of 165% AS LONG AS the enemy scaling was adjusted so that enemies have a similar time to kill as they do now.

 

The funny thing is that probably the most balanced part of the game right now is archwing. Mods like multishot are rare, expensive, and only marginally affect overall performance of a gun. The builds across my archwing weapons vary nicely. Now I know there simply aren't that many archwing mods, so it was probably easy for DE to implement what they learned from other parts of the game.

 

Can you go into a t4 with an un-potatoed frame and do fine? Yes. Can you go into a t4 with an un-potatoed weapon and do fine? Not likely....

[ShawnV2]

So many people misunderstood what the OP was getting at, and that is the fact that multishot is required, and expensive and required mods like serration, split chamber, and heavy cal all feel like ways DE is band aid addressing the enemy scaling issue while forcing us to use orokin catalysts and forma in most weapons.

 

What would be nice if multishot had some sort of trade off like it taking an extra ammo for that extra shot, kinda like it does in borderlands 2. If serration was a 16.5% damage buff instead of 165% AS LONG AS the enemy scaling was adjusted so that enemies have a similar time to kill as they do now.

 

The funny thing is that probably the most balanced part of the game right now is archwing. Mods like multishot are rare, expensive, and only marginally affect overall performance of a gun. The builds across my archwing weapons vary nicely. Now I know there simply aren't that many archwing mods, so it was probably easy for DE to implement what they learned from other parts of the game.

 

Can you go into a t4 with an un-potatoed frame and do fine? Yes. Can you go into a t4 with an un-potatoed weapon and do fine? Not likely....

 

I'd say DE is in a pretty hard position. Especially when the whole community is so spoiled that they think DE should literally change the whole game just to please them and everyone else will be ok with it. Game is not perfect but pretty fine as it is, i like how insanely difficult it gets at a certain point and down right impossible later on (that there is actually no end game). Always nice to see how far you can go...but i digress. 

 

I don't think anyone misunderstood him, he literally said:

 

Since allot of people have made this point: Let's assume enemy scaling has been sorted out before this is to be implemented.

 

Here's a couple of proposed solutions.

- Have the shots spread out a bit, like the angstrum, when you have a multishot. So if you fire two shots they spread out in a V away from you, and if it's three shots they spread out in a triangular fashion.

- Limit the weapons that can have mulitshot (for example, no mulitshot on explosive weapons or beam/ directional elemental damage type weapons)

- Have multishot weapons reduce the damage dealth by 100/(5 - number of shots) % so if you fire three shots the damage dealth per shot is reduced by half, with 2 shots the damage dealth is reduced by a third per shot

 

Without telling us what this miracle enemy scaling fix would be. By far the worst idea to balance weapons I've ever seen.  Now at least you're idea is somewhat tolerable and makes sense. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by ShawnV2

[WereFowl]

Yeah I added in the enemy scaling thing because so many people were saying that should be sorted first, my suggestion wasn't about that.

 

Also nice how you edited out the part where I said exactly what Dipstick was saying. You know the part about how multishot is on every weapon, without fail. Probably becaus eit would ruin your point and make you look like an entitled baby.

 

All I am still seeing is most people not raising  any valid concerns other than F*** YOU I WANT MY MULTISHOT TO NEVER CHANGE!!!11!!!!

 

(Sorry a few people have, and I've been civil towards them, like the person who made the point about botws and multishot)

 

Also worst suggestion ever? Trying to change a mod a bit so that not everyone feels like they have to use it? Christ if you babies love mutlishot so much why don't you whine this much about getting DE to add it to every weapon - Because that's the stage we're at at the moment. 

 

Incidentally I like how I'm accused of being selfish when your argument boils down to: don't change this feature that's obviously not working as intended and has become a necessity due to unbalanced game play because I DON'T WANT YOU TO!!!!!!!

Edited July 29, 2015 by WereFowl

[Phatose]

What exactly makes you think it's not working as intended

[ShawnV2]

Yeah I added in the enemy scaling thing because so many people were saying that should be sorted first, my suggestion wasn't about that.

 

Also nice how you edited out the part where I said exactly what Dipstick was saying. You know the part about how multishot is on every weapon, without fail. Probably becaus eit would ruin your point and make you look like an entitled baby.

 

All I am still seeing is most people not raising  any valid concerns other than F*** YOU I WANT MY MULTISHOT TO NEVER CHANGE!!!11!!!!

 

(Sorry a few people have, and I've been civil towards them, like the person who made the point about botws and multishot)

 

Also worst suggestion ever? Trying to change a mod a bit so that not everyone feels like they have to use it? Christ if you babies love mutlishot so much why don't you whine this much about getting DE to add it to every weapon - Because that's the stage we're at at the moment. 

 

Incidentally I like how I'm accused of being selfish when your argument boils down to: don't change this feature that's obviously not working as intended and has become a necessity due to unbalanced game play because I DON'T WANT YOU TO!!!!!!!

 

Sure whatever dude, i'm done here. I'll say it again, that's one terrible idea. When you somehow tell us about that miracle enemy scaling fix that would make your idea viable, then ill start taking you seriously. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by ShawnV2

[WereFowl]

What exactly makes you think it's not working as intended

Because everyone who has the mod has it on every weapon without fail. For a customization system that seem like a big design flaw.

 

Hell even the dev's have mentioned they're not happy with how much people rely on a very specific group of mods.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

What exactly makes you think it's not working as intended

You don't need to be a mechanic to know that something is wrong with your car.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Mofixil

[WereFowl]

Sure whatever dude, i'm done here. I'll say it again, that's one terrible idea. When you somehow tell us about that miracle enemy scaling fix that would make your idea viable, then ill start taking you seriously. 

So I refuted your point and you're trying to act dismissive while running away? Fine, it's about what I expected from allot of the posters here.

[Phatose]

Because everyone who has the mod has it on every weapon without fail. For a customization system that seem like a big design flaw.

 

Hell even the dev's have mentioned they're not happy with how much people rely on a very specific group of mods.

 

Their design follows that pattern over and over again though.  And DE, despite a portion of the community clamoring for removal of standout mods that follow that principle - serration is the horse that's been beaten to death on that - they haven't removed it, or  even changed it.

 

They might not be happy about how much they use it, but that's far from meaning it's not how they intended.  All that means is their unhappy about how what they intended worked out.

[WereFowl]

Their design follows that pattern over and over again though.  And DE, despite a portion of the community clamoring for removal of standout mods that follow that principle - serration is the horse that's been beaten to death on that - they haven't removed it, or  even changed it.

 

They might not be happy about how much they use it, but that's far from meaning it's not how they intended.  All that means is their unhappy about how what they intended worked out.

That's a fair point.

 

I will admit the changes I'm proposing would be allot better if they were part of a general overhaul of damage mods and weapons so mods like serration and multishot are not requirements.

 

Thank you for actually making valid points and not just being reactionary. (sorry if that sounded snarky at all, as you can see most of the posts I've had on this have been less than civil and I do genuinely appreciate legitimate feedback)

Edited July 29, 2015 by WereFowl

[ShawnV2]

So I refuted your point and you're trying to act dismissive while running away? Fine, it's about what I expected from allot of the posters here.

 

You obviously think your idea is the holy grail of ideas, so there's really no arguing against you. No one's taking your thread seriously cus it's a terrible idea. Even worse than what we already have.

 

Also even if it was any good and we're all somehow just blind, if the majority of the community doesn't like it there's really NOTHING you can do about it...because as i keep saying DE can't please everyone, but they can certainly please MOST of us.

 

Edit:

If it's variety and customization you want, ask for more mods. Don't propose changing things for everyone else and assume they'll be ok with it.

Edited July 29, 2015 by ShawnV2

[Phatose]

I suspect there's a simple design favoritism on both sides that's causing all the furor.

 

 

One side believe modules should be for customization first - they'll tell you mod is short for "modification".  Mods that are simple, straight up improvements are inimical to this school of though, since they represent customizations that require no thought at all.

 

The other side believes modules are for improvement fist.  Mods are short for "module".  Straight up improvements are AOK - improvements like that are the main point of the system.  Customizations that change how a weapon functions, but don't actually improve it are largely a waste of space.

 

 

It's safe to say that DE's current design runs on the second interpretation.   People who like that interpretation are going to be hostile to a switch to the first interpretation (see entire thread) and vice versa. 

 

Probably be better off just directly addressing the two schools of thought and asking for a change to former then to try to change any particular example of the system.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Phatose

[TheBrsrkr]

Multishot is a good stat in theory, but it's to high a chance to really be optional. Kick the chance down to 40%. Solves all the problems. Do you want a chance for an extra bullet, or one bullet that does more damage? Multishot is essentally a "double the power of your gun" mod, and it really shouldn't be.

[ShawnV2]

I suspect there's a simple design favoritism on both sides that's causing all the furor.

 

 

One side believe modules should be for customization first - they'll tell you mod is short for "modification".  Mods that are simple, straight up improvements are inimical to this school of though, since they represent customizations that require no thought at all.

 

The other side believes modules are for improvement fist.  Mods are short for "module".  Straight up improvements are AOK - improvements like that are the main point of the system.  Customizations that change how a weapon functions, but don't actually improve it are largely a waste of space.

 

 

It's safe to say that DE's current design runs on the second interpretation.   People who like that interpretation are going to be hostile to a switch to the first interpretation (see entire thread) and vice versa. 

 

Probably be better off just directly addressing the two schools of thought and asking for a change to former then to try to change any particular example of the system.

 

^ Exactly.

[Thaumatos]

I suspect there's a simple design favoritism on both sides that's causing all the furor.

 

 

One side believe modules should be for customization first - they'll tell you mod is short for "modification".  Mods that are simple, straight up improvements are inimical to this school of though, since they represent customizations that require no thought at all.

 

The other side believes modules are for improvement fist.  Mods are short for "module".  Straight up improvements are AOK - improvements like that are the main point of the system.  Customizations that change how a weapon functions, but don't actually improve it are largely a waste of space.

 

 

It's safe to say that DE's current design runs on the second interpretation.   People who like that interpretation are going to be hostile to a switch to the first interpretation (see entire thread) and vice versa. 

 

Probably be better off just directly addressing the two schools of thought and asking for a change to former then to try to change any particular example of the system.

 

This is exactly why people are asking for straight-up improvements to be baked into the rank-up process.  That would actually suffice for both sides...but that doesn't end the argument.

 

There are those who simply disagree with change.  They don't care how or why the mod system could change, they just don't want their way of playing to be changed.  Unfortunately, too many of them are just waiting for the chance to shout down and flood the forums with "no" posts for anyone to have a real discussion here.

 

There is no real debate/conversation when someone simply posts a one-line contradiction and adds nothing.

[WereFowl]

^ Exactly.

So why didn't you make that point rather than whine like a 4 year old facing the prospect of loosing his favourite toy?

 

Oh and I am willing to debate with people who actually put forward ideas and points other than: I think this is bad because Waa! Waa! Waa!

 

I don;'t think it;s a perfect idea, I just think some sort of alteration is necessary while you seem to think the current system is perfect as is.

Multishot is a good stat in theory, but it's to high a chance to really be optional. Kick the chance down to 40%. Solves all the problems. Do you want a chance for an extra bullet, or one bullet that does more damage? Multishot is essentally a "double the power of your gun" mod, and it really shouldn't be.

That's a great idea, I'll add it to the list off possible changes. Thanks.

Edited July 29, 2015 by WereFowl

[ShawnV2]

So why didn't you make that poitn rather than whine like a 4 year old facing the prospect of loosing his favourite toy?

 

Oh and I am willing to debate with people who actually put forward ideas and points other than: I think this is bad because Waa! Waa! Waa!

 

 

Hey I made my points and you ignore them, so i revert to a whiny 4 year old. You tha blame bro.

[WereFowl]

Hey I made my points and you ignore them, so i revert to a whiny 4 year old. You tha blame bro.

The only points you made were: I think this is terrible because reasons.

 

You never made any other points and kept harping on about my heading comment about enemy scaling, which I only added because when I first suggested it most of the comments that offered feedback were that enemy scaling would have to be fixed first.

 

Had you been civil and actually put forward your ideas I would have listened to them.

 

edit: Oh you also said this is terrible because the community won't like it. Which I pointed out is a horrible reason not to change things, as I said to you using the example of coptering.

Edited July 29, 2015 by WereFowl

[Redhux]

If you don't like it, then don't use it.

 

Problem (is it really one here?) solved.

[Thaumatos]

I think you could severely hamper the damage of the added shots and increase the number of shots given by multishot.  Just to make it more about increasing number of shots...like the name of the effect suggests...

 

Example:

 

Rank 0: +1 round at 5% damage

Rank 1: +2 rounds at 10% damage

Rank 2: +3 rounds at 15% damage

Rank 3: +4 rounds at 20% damage

 

Additional rounds would be given an increasingly reduced accuracy from the gun's base.  It'd be somewhere near the current multishot in DPS but nowhere near it in accuracy.  Not a nerf on paper, but it could make things difficult at a range giving players a real choice between distance fighting and 'spray n pray'

 

For shotguns it would increase the pellet count significantly and add a completely different feel.  It wouldn't step on the toes of Vicious Spread either since VS is a direct increase to all damage at the cost of an increase in spread.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Thaumatos

[ShawnV2]

The only points you made were: I think this is terrible because reasons.

 

You never made any other points and kept harping on about my heading comment about enemy scaling, which I only added because when I first suggested it most of the comments that offered feedback were that enemy scaling would have to be fixed first.

 

Had you been civil and actually put forward your ideas I would have listened to them.

 

edit: Oh you also said this is terrible because the community won't like it. Which I pointed out is a horrible reason not to change things, as I said to you using the example of coptering.

 

Ill tell you why your idea is bad. You want the whole system changed based on the idea of customization. Why? When that can be achieved by simply adding to the game. Why change the content when you can simply add to it. Boom, everyone's happy. Whether it be more mods, weapons or mechanics. They removed coptering but you know what else they did? They added more to parkour.

Edited July 29, 2015 by ShawnV2

[Phatose]

This is exactly why people are asking for straight-up improvements to be baked into the rank-up process.  That would actually suffice for both sides...but that doesn't end the argument.

 

There are those who simply disagree with change.  They don't care how or why the mod system could change, they just don't want their way of playing to be changed.  Unfortunately, too many of them are just waiting for the chance to shout down and flood the forums with "no" posts for anyone to have a real discussion here.

 

There is no real debate/conversation when someone simply posts a one-line contradiction and adds nothing.

 

It wouldn't necessarily be sufficient for both sides - it rather fundamentally changes the way we progress.   Under such a system, your long term progress at upgrading mods no longer increases your power.  As we are now, the serration that I leveled up to max 6 months ago effects the strength of the weapon I use today.  Under the situation you're describing, that mod I leveled up ages ago doesn't matter, just the level of today's weapons.

 

That's quite a switch, and one I'll say I disapprove of.  That long term character of the current mod system means that the power I gain today - via leveling up mods and the like - is something I keep and can make use of forever.  That change would mean any progress I make only sticks if I stick with the weapon - and I don't like that.   The current system means power gains have at least some of a permanent character, and I preferthat.

 

 

I doubt any debate on the subject is going to be all that useful under any conditions.  The two sides just have different priorities to the extent there's not overlap. 

 

That said, probably best to cut the one-off 'don't like this' a bit of slack.  Changing only one mod to function based on the first option's principles while everything else uses the second ends up with said mod in the unused piles, simply because it's only changing your power - but it's competing with things that increase your power.

[WereFowl]

 

Ill tell you why your idea is bad. You want the whole system changed based on the idea of customization. Why? When that can be achieved by simply adding to the game. Why change the content when you can simply add to it. Boom, everyone's happy. Whether it be more mods, weapons or mechanics. They removed coptering but you know what else they did? They added more to parkour.

Okay that was not an argument you initially put forward,

 

All you did was imply I wanted to ruin it due to selfish reasons.

 

However I will address your point: Why not have this all put in with weapon leveling if it's so essential, hell why have 8 mods slots if all you're going to do is fill at least 3 of them with the same mods on every damn gun? Why not just apply those mod stats to every weapon and reduce the number of slots by 5? As that would be exactly the same.

 

There's no point to the modding process if it's the same for more or less every weapon.

Edited July 29, 2015 by WereFowl

[ShawnV2]

 

 

 

Okay that was not an argument you initially put forward,

 

All you did was imply I wanted to ruin it due to selfish reasons.

 

However I will address your point: Why not have this all put in with weapon leveling if it's so essential, hell why have 8 mods slots if all you're going to do is fill at least 3 of them with the same mods on every damn gun? Why not just apply those mod stats to every weapon and reduce the number of slots by 5? As that would be exactly the same.

 

There's no point to the modding process if it's the same for more or less every weapon.

 

 

Actually i did bring it up before, you just ignored it. Anyways, have you heard about u17? They're adding more mods to the game it's not a lot but it's progress. More and more mods are occasionally being adding to the game, which means customization. Whether it be corrupted or nightmare mods, It's a process. Not to mention the shotgun buff which should hopefully make a lot of shotguns more viable. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by ShawnV2

[WereFowl]

Actually i did bring it up before, you just ignored it. Anyways, have you heard about u17? They're adding more mods to the game it's not a lot but it's progress. More and more mods are occasionally being adding to the game, which means customization. Whether it be corrupted or nightmare mods, It's a process. Not to mention the shotgun buff which should hopefully make a lot of shotguns more viable. 

 

you did not bring up this issue of just adding more stuff to the game

 

Also what's the point in new mods when no one will be adding them as they already have their weapons set up exactly the same as everyone else? 

 

Sure maybe a few people will add 1 mod, but unless it's a straight damage upgrade then no one will bother, and that's just power creep by a different route.

 

This is the entire point of my suggestion, currently mods like serration and split change are extremely limiting as everyone has to use them and they may as well just be directy applied to the weapons at this point.