Parkour 2.0 (U17 Megathread Topic)

[Wakeoflove]

Or we could just ask for different keybinding sets for Land and Archwing? Or just use 'C' for Crouch instead of Ctrl so you can hit Crouch + Jump more easily?

You have to press crouch BEFORE each jump, not simultaneously or anything like that, so binding crouch to some other button above space would result in a very awkward wrist twisty thumb rocking motion which is the antithesis of the supposed "less carpel tunnel" that was supposed to have come with parkour 2.0. By not having rocket jump work off of sprint, the devs have not actually reduced the button presses required for high mobility in any meaningful way, tying everything to sprint as most games do tie all high mobility to a single high mobility key would achieve the desired result and not require a whole bunch of shifting keybinds or code two separate keybinds for archwing and ground to attempt to compensate for a poor design decision.

[ChaosMarine]

I would personally recommend sprint moved to space, left-ctrl to jump and shift to crouch. You can easily press all three or any combination with your pinkie or thumb. The new system still sucks massive balls but at least you can spaz-move by mashing those three easy buttons.

[mkah_mvet]

The affinity bonus weekend is drawing so much attention to how terrible parkour 2.0 is. I've avoided doing spy missions because holy crap that would suck. And yes, turns out it really really does. The bunny hop on the grineer wall run vault is just terrible... something that was slick and flowing and really freakin' cool is now stupid, clumsy, ugly, ineffective, and really just not fun. The difference in bullet jump distance when going vertical vs horizontal is annoying and terrible in a normal map, but it becomes cripplingly bad in the spy vaults. Whatever, I'm going to max out equinox and not do another spy run until the next new frame comes out. Parkour 2.0 killed spy 2.0, killed melee 2.0, and kills the affinity weekend.

[Thalahssalyst]

Parkour 2.0 killed spy 2.0, killed melee 2.0, and kills the affinity weekend.

I cant take that comment seriously...

[Liminal]

I'm actually having a lot more fun doing spy missions now that you can stop mid-wallhop and inertia is predictable.

[mkah_mvet]

I'm actually having a lot more fun doing spy missions now that you can stop mid-wallhop and inertia is predictable.

 

Which brings us to the crux of parkour 2.0...  it makes it so people who sucked before do slightly better, but people who didn't suck before do significantly worse.  It closed the gap between suck and skill, meaning now, no matter how good you are, it sucks.  If you couldn't predict your own motion before, you sucked at warframe.  That's all there is to it.  It was never complicated, no button mashing and hoping you somehow move faster.  The more I do these damnable spy missions, the more I'm realizing how ridiculous this stupid mobility nerf actually is.  I could do a laundry list of how each of the "features" of the mobility nerf are bad, but the whole system is a joke.  It's sluggish, it's slow, it's cumbersome, it's button mashing.  The old simple elegance is gone.

[Sci_Ant]

You have to press crouch BEFORE each jump, not simultaneously or anything like that, so binding crouch to some other button above space would result in a very awkward wrist twisty thumb rocking motion which is the antithesis of the supposed "less carpel tunnel" that was supposed to have come with parkour 2.0. By not having rocket jump work off of sprint, the devs have not actually reduced the button presses required for high mobility in any meaningful way, tying everything to sprint as most games do tie all high mobility to a single high mobility key would achieve the desired result and not require a whole bunch of shifting keybinds or code two separate keybinds for archwing and ground to attempt to compensate for a poor design decision.

 

I dunno. Since I started playing Warframe, I've bound C as an extra button for Hold to Crouch and it works seamlessly since the end of my thumb is on C and the first joint in my thumb is on space. So I just push downwards while pulling my thumb slightly backwards and it always put me into a sliding jump, with Shift as Sprint.

 

Now it always puts me into a Bullet Jump when I want, so nothing much has changed. I automatically hit Crouch before Jump as I always have, now I just don't need to worry about Sprinting too. Seems like less buttons to me.

 

 

Which brings us to the crux of parkour 2.0...  it makes it so people who sucked before do slightly better, but people who didn't suck before do significantly worse.  It closed the gap between suck and skill, meaning now, no matter how good you are, it sucks.  If you couldn't predict your own motion before, you sucked at warframe.  That's all there is to it.  It was never complicated, no button mashing and hoping you somehow move faster.  The more I do these damnable spy missions, the more I'm realizing how ridiculous this stupid mobility nerf actually is.  I could do a laundry list of how each of the "features" of the mobility nerf are bad, but the whole system is a joke.  It's sluggish, it's slow, it's cumbersome, it's button mashing.  The old simple elegance is gone.

 

Wow, so since you can't cope with Parkour 2.0, it automatically makes anyone who can, a sucky player player who never knew how to play the game in the first place? Brave mate, bravo.

 

That old simple elegance you're talking about, was Jump + Crouch + Meleeeee to the end of the world. It required no skill, just repetitively Coptering with the same weapons over and over.

 

It limited you vertically, was bugged horizontally and was not precise unless you only ever used one melee and knew exactly what to do to go a specific distance with the bugged stamina.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Sci_Ant

[Liminal]

Which brings us to the crux of parkour 2.0...  it makes it so people who sucked before do slightly better, but people who didn't suck before do significantly worse.  It closed the gap between suck and skill, meaning now, no matter how good you are, it sucks.  If you couldn't predict your own motion before, you sucked at warframe.  That's all there is to it.  It was never complicated, no button mashing and hoping you somehow move faster.  The more I do these damnable spy missions, the more I'm realizing how ridiculous this stupid mobility nerf actually is.  I could do a laundry list of how each of the "features" of the mobility nerf are bad, but the whole system is a joke.  It's sluggish, it's slow, it's cumbersome, it's button mashing.  The old simple elegance is gone.

Because it was so hard to go fast before. Air-slash, copter, air-slash, copter, slide attack.

 

Elegant is wallwalking 30cm to get suddenly flinged across the room at 90km/h, and having to wait until inertia disappeared while you are mashed against a wall? Movement was somewhat predictable, but it was glitchy. And the landing roll ... lovely.

 

This system isn't slow and it isn't button mashing (if you are mashing you are doing it wrong). You can still clear captures in 2 minutes.

 

You can say "I preferred the old system", but don't try to pass opinion as fact.

[mkah_mvet]

I dunno. Since I started playing Warframe, I've bound C as an extra button for Hold to Crouch and it works seamlessly since the end of my thumb is on C and the first joint in my thumb is on space. So I just push downwards while pulling my thumb slightly backwards and it always put me into a sliding jump, with Shift as Sprint.

 

Now it always puts me into a Bullet Jump when I want, so nothing much has changed. I automatically hit Crouch before Jump as I always have, now I just don't need to worry about Sprinting too. Seems like less buttons to me.

 

 

 

Wow, so since you can't cope with Parkour 2.0, it automatically makes anyone who can, a sucky player player who never knew how to play the game in the first place? Brave mate, bravo.

 

That old simple elegance you're talking about, was Jump + Crouch + Meleeeee to the end of the world. It required no skill, just repetitively Coptering with the same weapons over and over.

 

It limited you vertically, was bugged horizontally and was not precise unless you only ever used one melee and knew exactly what to do to go a specific distance with the bugged stamina.

If you thought the best and only use of the old system was coptering and only coptering, yes you did suck.

 

I am a realist, and understand DE is never going to roll back the mobility nerf (aka, parkour 2.0.)  What I can hope for is that they'll have the clarity of thought to analyze what made the old system so fun, and what makes the nerfed system so frustratingly dumb, and bring the fun back to mobility.  And if they feel really ambitious, they could go solve the physics issues that made them hack together this sloppy workaround to begin with, but I doubt they'll deem it worth the investment.

[Raven_Face]

You have my upvote. Take it ^

[StonedMakak]

Which brings us to the crux of parkour 2.0...  it makes it so people who sucked before do slightly better, but people who didn't suck before do significantly worse.  It closed the gap between suck and skill, meaning now, no matter how good you are, it sucks.  If you couldn't predict your own motion before, you sucked at warframe.  That's all there is to it.  It was never complicated, no button mashing and hoping you somehow move faster.  The more I do these damnable spy missions, the more I'm realizing how ridiculous this stupid mobility nerf actually is.  I could do a laundry list of how each of the "features" of the mobility nerf are bad, but the whole system is a joke.  It's sluggish, it's slow, it's cumbersome, it's button mashing.  The old simple elegance is gone.

 

After the initial wave of actual feedback (be it positive of negative) this thread predictably devolved into whine-fest, but this takes the cake. Like, have you stopped to think about the point you made? What you are saying contradicts itself. If the old system was more complex and skill-oriented than the new one then naturally any half decent player will be just as good, if not better, with the simpler version. They might miss the complexity of the old system, but do significantly worse? By your own admission it's simpler and easier to use and allows bad players to do better, how is a skilled player doing worse all of a sudden? It's like saying that a professional NASCAR racer can't drive a normal car. Pure nonsense. 

 

Unless we're talking about a "skilled" player who grew accustomed to a mechanic so much that it became a crutch for him, and now he is unable to adapt. Incidentally, that makes him the opposite of skilled. 

Edited August 14, 2015 by tisdfogg

[3lackrose]

After some time playing and discussing with some friends we came to the conclusion that the new movement system is way better than the previous one. There are some mixed feelings on who prefers the old movement and the new one, but in terms of functionality, parkour 2 gives more options and freedom.

 

We experienced and agree that there are some problems with the wall interaction, but this could take more time to get used to it.

 

For the moment, i use walls mostly for brief support jump boosts or hang in there for a moment wall-latching while i think what to do next.

 

As for the rest, i'm feeling much more comfortable with this system, i don't use ropes or walls much but the rest of the movement system is enough for me.

 

I can jump in the middle of a large mob of enemies and dodge/evade pretty much everything or most of it, from fire to machete swings to heavy gunners aoe blasts. This new system comes with improved rolls, some people are still not aware of it. Use them in combination and in between your moves and you'll get splendid results. Rolls also works while in mid air. You can use them to adjust your movements or dodge.

 

About wall latch, personally i don't like having a forced zoom when i use it. I don't have enough time to aim something and with the third person camera, often my warframe stands in the way and i can't see what i'm aiming. Consider making the character semi transparent or switch in first person when wall latching. An ingame toggable/adjustable zoom function for aiming could help for the matter.

 

For the rest, thanks for your work as always.

Edited August 14, 2015 by 3lackrose

[Sci_Ant]

If you thought the best and only use of the old system was coptering and only coptering, yes you did suck.

 

I am a realist, and understand DE is never going to roll back the mobility nerf (aka, parkour 2.0.)  What I can hope for is that they'll have the clarity of thought to analyze what made the old system so fun, and what makes the nerfed system so frustratingly dumb, and bring the fun back to mobility.  And if they feel really ambitious, they could go solve the physics issues that made them hack together this sloppy workaround to begin with, but I doubt they'll deem it worth the investment.

 

I never ever used 'coptering' before Parkour 2.0. I didn't even know how to do it until recently and thought it was the stupidest thing back then. And I brought it up only since it is what you seemed to be referring to. I always used the slide jump with directional melee, slide attack or the 'wall run latch and release' super forward jump off which were the only real options anyone had with the old Parkour system, other than plain coptering. 

 

Funnily, those moves took you forward at the exact same rate or even slower than the combos in Parkour 2.0 and still did not have enough control on them since if the stamina bug ever kicked in, even if you simply slide attacked off a higher ledge, it would send you flying into a wall just like coptering did.

 

Having more options, more combos, more precise control and more effectiveness with Parkour 2.0, seems a lot better to me. And if the devs did gives us Parkour 1.5, with the Stamina bug being the only thing changed, then we'd still have people like you clamoring to get the bug back, BECAUSE THAT'S ALL THE OLD MOVEMENT SYSTEM HAD GOING FOR IT.

 

About wall latch, personally i don't like having a forced zoom when i use it. I don't have enough time to aim something and with the third person camera, often my warframe stands in the way and i can't see what i'm aiming. Consider making the character semi transparent or switch in first person when wall latching. An ingame toggable/adjustable zoom function for aiming could help for the matter.

 

Yes, the only thing we need is for them to add a transparency to the frame model when we wall latch, so we can aim easily and clearly! :)

Edited August 14, 2015 by Sci_Ant

[rockscl]

add a transparency to the frame model when we wall latch, so we can aim

 

please, this

 

personally i don't like having a forced zoom when i use it

 

please, this too

[Faulcun]

After the initial wave of actual feedback (be it positive of negative) this thread predictably devolved into whine-fest, but this takes the cake. Like, have you stopped to think about the point you made? What you are saying contradicts itself. If the old system was more complex and skill-oriented than the new one then naturally any half decent player will be just as good, if not better, with the simpler version. They might miss the complexity of the old system, but do significantly worse? By your own admission it's simpler and easier to use and allows bad players to do better, how is a skilled player doing worse all of a sudden? It's like saying that a professional NASCAR racer can't drive a normal car. Pure nonsense. 

 

Unless we're talking about a "skilled" player who grew accustomed to a mechanic so much that it became a crutch for him, and now he is unable to adapt. Incidentally, that makes him the opposite of skilled. 

 

I think the more accurate comparison looks a little more like this

 

We had this

 

But people couldnt figure out how to stop doing this

 

So they gave us this, and said "its better because look at all the stuff we gave it"

 

Edit: I took extra time to make sure these images were color accurate with reality.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Faulcun

[Liminal]

-Analogy that doesn't address the post it is quoting-

Following that analogy we only get to drive inside parking lots, so all the power of a Nascar car is useless compared to a smaller car with better control.

[StonedMakak]

I think the more accurate comparison looks a little more like this

 

We had this

 

But people couldnt figure out how to stop doing this

 

So they gave us this, and said "its better because look at all the stuff we gave it"

 

 

 

To continue the metaphor, people didn't bother because they had this:

 

 

And it's not like "our NASCAR" vehicles were that great, and we didn't really need them to begin with IMO because:

Following that analogy we only get to drive inside parking lots, so all the power of a Nascar car is useless compared to a smaller car with better control.

 

 

That being said, I respect your preference. Thought we should probably stop derailing. 

 

 

Edit: I took extra time to make sure these images were color accurate with reality.

 

Your attention to detail is dully noted and appreciated. 

Edited August 14, 2015 by tisdfogg

[Faulcun]

You know what my real complaint is.... I think im just tired of being "punished" in this game, and others, because of other people's short comings. I will excel in whatever situation im given whether its this parkour or the old, or whatever else. I just feel like we're forced to wear floaties in a lazy river because god forbid anybody learns how to swim.

 

Maybe I enjoy driving my nascar car in a parking lot. Our only limits should be our own.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Faulcun

[Liminal]

Maybe I enjoy driving my nascar car in a parking lot.

The devs and many users felt it not only looked silly, but that it was also quite impractical.

 

Let's make something clear, coptering and aerial slashes were not part of the previous iteration of parkour, the only reason we could achieve insane speeds before was because of bugs. They were welcome bugs for a while, but they were unintended.

Parkour 2.0 is completely intended (except air-glide-sliding probably) and the game can now properly work with it. It is still fast and there are people who are good and people who are bad at making the most out of it, just like with any other system.

 

Our only limits should be our own.

And those introduced with the game. Maybe the devs decided zooming past a whole tile at MACH 4 without even looking at the enemies kind of went against their intentions.

[BrazilianJoe]

Change from wall hop forward to hop up is too sudden. 

 

I expect as a mobility thing to be able to just point up or down to go slanted in the wall and t ochange back and forth between those two as many times as I want. It seems to lose connection to the wall too easily. 

 

It does not seem to work well (or at all?) in changing the diagonality of the wallhopping depending on mouse/camera vertical angle. I feel it should, or should be more noticeable. 

[Faulcun]

The devs and many users felt it not only looked silly, but that it was also quite impractical.

 

Let's make something clear, coptering and aerial slashes were not part of the previous iteration of parkour, the only reason we could achieve insane speeds before was because of bugs. They were welcome bugs for a while, but they were unintended.

Parkour 2.0 is completely intended (except air-glide-sliding probably) and the game can now properly work with it. It is still fast and there are people who are good and people who are bad at making the most out of it, just like with any other system.

 

And those introduced with the game. Maybe the devs decided zooming past a whole tile at MACH 4 without even looking at the enemies kind of went against their intentions.

 

My entire arguments in this entire thread have been based around the obstacle course in the dojo, where coptering and air melee do not exist, and the old system is arguably still faster at a legit run.

 

Also, people blow by the enemies because they are not required to complete the mission. Slowing us down isnt going to stop that. In fact, I dont even accept that as an excuse. If a large part of parkour 2.0 was created to get people to slow down and look at stuff.... then they need to just throw in the towel now. All you will get is more power spam.... Either excal with radial blind, some volt speed, worm hole with or without exit velocity, chaos, stomp, link, rift walk, etc etc. Almost every single frame has an ability that will simply allow you to stroll past enemies at will in some way or another without a second thought to their existence.

[Liminal]

My entire arguments in this entire thread have been based around the obstacle course in the dojo, where coptering and air melee do not exist, and the old system is arguably still faster at a legit run.

"Arguably" indeed, since bulletjumping can skip the whole moving pillars part (no Zephyr required) and air gliding extends horizontal jumps enormously. I've seen some pretty fast runs on YT (26 seconds for example).

 

And it's not about specifically slowing players down, they had said before in devstreams that it's not their idea to have players fly past all the content in the game, so I think it has more to do with "use all these things we made for you". I may not completely agree with it, but it's undeniable that the new movement interacts more with the rest of the game (mods and maps for sure).

[wilc0x]

And those introduced with the game. Maybe the devs decided zooming past a whole tile at MACH 4 without even looking at the enemies kind of went against their intentions.

With Parkour 2.0 zooming past things hasn't changed.  It just looks dumber now and is harder to pull off.  (I never used coptering, just slide -> jump somersault)

[Sci_Ant]

Also, people blow by the enemies because they are not required to complete the mission. Slowing us down isnt going to stop that. In fact, I dont even accept that as an excuse. If a large part of parkour 2.0 was created to get people to slow down and look at stuff.... then they need to just throw in the towel now. All you will get is more power spam.... Either excal with radial blind, some volt speed, worm hole with or without exit velocity, chaos, stomp, link, rift walk, etc etc. Almost every single frame has an ability that will simply allow you to stroll past enemies at will in some way or another without a second thought to their existence.

 

Those are the legit options that have been been there for you to choose from for a long time. So if the players didn't actually use them before because of coptering or spamming slide jump and directional melee, now we will be encouraged to use them more.

 

And I still don't see how those abilities wouldn't have been used anyway even with the old system, it's not like Parkour 1.0 made you invisible / invincible.

[Faulcun]

"Arguably" indeed, since bulletjumping can skip the whole moving pillars part (no Zephyr required) and air gliding extends horizontal jumps enormously. I've seen some pretty fast runs on YT (26 seconds for example).

 

And it's not about specifically slowing players down, they had said before in devstreams that it's not their idea to have players fly past all the content in the game, so I think it has more to do with "use all these things we made for you". I may not completely agree with it, but it's undeniable that the new movement interacts more with the rest of the game (mods and maps for sure).

 

I myself have done 24 seconds by skipping the pillars with the new system. I have also managed 28.03 with Loki with a full legit run through the course without skipping anything with the OLD system. Everybody wants to skip as much as possible with the new system, which is understandable. They are testing the limits. However ive yet to see a legit run that addresses each section of the course yet. Im curious to see what youve found.

 

Those are the legit options that have been been there for you to choose from for a long time. So if the players didn't actually use them before because of coptering or spamming slide jump and directional melee, now we will be encouraged to use them more.

 

And I still don't see how those abilities wouldn't have been used anyway even with the old system, it's not like Parkour 1.0 made you invisible / invincible.

 

Thats exactly my point. So if the new system was created with a huge part of that being to get players to address the content, then I dare say thats a huge waste of time and money and resources that could have been MUCH better spent fixing some bugs that need REAL attention. Realistically you can simply slide jump past everything even now. There really is no difference in ignoring enemies then, or now which only makes the concept of addressing content all the more absurd.