Damn You Stunlock Man! (Or: Please Stop Giving Enemies Cc)

[HomeyCDawg]

I support less staggerlock. It's really not a very good mechanic in any game I've ever seen it in, yet designer keep using it because it's a simple and reliable way to kill players regardless of skill. I actually like the concept of the Scorpion, but her CC is too much, especially with going through walls and not having any travel time or way to avoid it. They need to telegraph their attacks beforehand so it can be avoided by the aware.

 

There is a very simple solution to make staggerlock less of a problem while still allowing enemies their stagger abilities. Stagger cooldown. In most PVE games I've played, the designers do actually give stagger cooldowns to enemies to allow them to avoid being staggerlocked (this is especially common in boss battles), yet ironically, hardly any designers ever give stagger cooldowns to player characters.

Edited May 25, 2013 by HomeyCDawg

[11.11.11]

I'm not as concerned with these girls as I am with disruptors and that shield drain shenanigans they have going, but it is disheartening to see more fake difficulty creeping into the game... Seriously, DE needs to redraft the enemy AI from scratch, because the current system requires no skill and is based on whether one's lucky enough or not to not come across these problems.

 

Lets all agree on something. The enemy AI is in most cases, pathetic. Good AI is hard to code, we get that, and it's beta so allowances are made. But if our enemies even looked like they were trying to flank us or at least do anything other than:

 

*round corner* 

"OH NO LOOK! SPACE NINJA'S!" 

*run backwards, turning at the hip and spraying lead randomly.* 

*Chuck grenade / send in rollers / call moa's / scream for Scorpians / whistle for a Sheild Lancer / hand-signal for a heavy gunner / telegraph a leach osprey* 

 

*repeat* 

 

Edited May 25, 2013 by 11.11.11

[Epk_KekAzz_Spaz_Hog]

I hate to see so many people complaining about fantastic difficulty related game mechanics. If you don't like this game's mechanics, go play something else and stop ruin it for others. This game keeps getting better with every CC enemy simply because I need to use my brain to complete mission. More amounts of situations when I'm close to death = more adrenaline = more epic fun.

 

Great job with new enemies DE! Thank you!

Edited May 25, 2013 by temhun

[Kiteless]

So, if you see this "difficulty" brought on by the Scorpions as being so fair, what is a consistent, reliable way to counter Scorpions?

Edited May 25, 2013 by Kiteless

[Sobezilla]

Encountered these things today, Scorpions (was mostly fighting corpus since the initial U8 launch [Damn those fusion moa's have some legs]). They don't make the game impossible or unplayable but they are kind of kick below the belt. DE your scorpions haven't directly or indirectly lead to my death, TRY HARDER. This is why no one wants to buy your platinum (also read up on that whole dojo financing fiasco/sh!t storm going on)

First Encounter:
Trying to speed run for Loot (oh that sweet, sweet loot). Running, Sliding, Jumping, Shooting while diving through the air like the baddass mofo that my Excal totally is (got that potato baby, potato). Running some more, trip out of nowhere "Dafuq is this?" Now I'm asking myself did they add a randomly generated tripping mechanic where we might trip? Nope, see some fugly grineer chica holding a whip and machete. BRAAAAAAAAAP pump her up with a spray from my gorgon. Carrying on my plundering of a grineer ship. Trip again while going zoom zoom past a Heavy gunner, "Goddamnit not again" Getting shot at while waiting to get back up, MASH THAT 4 KEY, kill all things in sight with that blissful Radial Javelin. Someone drops in my match, instantly got clusterfawked by two scorpions playing tug of war with their Loki frame. EEKS, BRAAAAAAP, got you covered buddy. Scorpions are dead, Loki is no longer part of some kinky BDSM scene. 

Thoughts: Fine in squad play if people are close, possibly a problem in solo play if you aren't a heavily fortified tank with vitality, redirection, steel fibers and or with a fully charged ultimate attack ready to sh!t kick anyone in sight. 
   

[MJ12]

I hate to see so many people complaining about fantastic difficulty related game mechanics. If you don't like this game's mechanics, go play something else and stop ruin it for others. This game keeps getting better with every CC enemy simply because I need to use my brain to complete mission. More amounts of situations when I'm close to death = more adrenaline = more epic fun.

 

Great job with new enemies DE! Thank you!

 

I don't know, from where I'm sitting it looks like you're the guy trying to ruin the game for everyone by claiming that 'more adrenaline' = 'more epic fun'. If you enjoy being in situations where you might die at any moment whatsoever while endlessly grinding monotonous jobs for randomly determined gain, join the f**king army and stop ruining games for people who don't.think 'luck based difficulty' is even remotely fun.

 

And I actually did like this game's mechanics, the thing is that they keep ruining those mechanics to cater to toxic customers like you who think anything that kills you, no matter how random, is fun. How about this, DE makes the game so if it detects you logged in, at any moment there's a small chance you'll lose all your health, shields, energy, and ammo and have all your mods unequipped.

 

More situations where you're close to death = more adrenaline = more epic fun. I expect that you'll find this extremely fun and actually pay not only DE to develop this, but pay me $9.99 USD for this brilliant, certainly fun, not at all cheap idea.

[Worira]

Also, I don't actually find situations where I'm flat on my back, unable to control my character in any way all that adrenaline-packed.

[Emotitron]

I would like to highlight this sentence and point out something.

Skill-based game.

In WHAT way is an undodgeable, uncounterable, ranged stun related to skill? Encounters with these enemies are based in pure luck. Either your lucky enough to not get shot to hell by nearby enemies, or everyone opens fire on you and kills you. There is no skill involved.

Even if you're lucky enough not to be hurt, having your hands slapped away from the controls for however long the enemy decides to chain stun you is F**ING annoying.

 

Easy, you don't let them near you. If you are going to a fight with roller balls/exploding head guys, bring something to use against roller balls/exploding guys. We all play the same content you do and most have no problems with the. I run Kappa all the time and that map is loaded with them. I have never seen a squadmate in an online pickup game struggling with them.

 

If it is roller balls jump and smash the ground with your melee weapon a few times, or just step to the side when they come at you to dodge. Or run backwards and shoot them as they chase you. Or jump on top of something. Or roll away. Or bring a sentinel with a cold mod on its gun to freeze them and make them easy to shoot. Or bring a warframe with an AOE attack. Or go invisible if that is your warframes ability. They are super easy to counter if you make half an effort.

If it is infested, be sure to kill the exploding guys before they reach you. If they do reach you start running away while shooting at them (it is not hard to shoot backwards and they won't stun you when they explode). If you get overrun use your warframes ability. If you just start spamming E and you came with an AoE melee weapon you will tear them apart and they likely won't manage a stun. If I start swinging my scindo when buried in a bunch of infested I rarely take on a stun. Almost every warframe has some kind of 'oh crap' ability for that situation as well. Jumping and smashing the ground works well in those situations as well.

If you are talking about the blue railgun bots, just duck in and out of cover.

 

If its the new scorpion ladies, just keep them at a distance until you have cleared the space of them at range. If they real you in, use your special. I haven't dealt with them long enough (only been like a day) to have any real strategies, but I found them to not be a problem. Maybe I haven't run into more. If i were to get into trouble though I would pop my warframe ability and reengage on my own terms.

 

What mission are you doing that is giving you all of this trouble? And which warframe are you using that is leaving you with no escape or AoE mechanism?

Edited May 25, 2013 by Emotitron

[Epk_KekAzz_Spaz_Hog]

So, if you see this "difficulty" brought on by the Scorpions as being so fair, what is a consistent, reliable way to counter Scorpions?

Take them out from distance. There is a suggestion on this forum, to add ability to shoot them while you're pulled.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/50405-suggestion-shoot-scorpions-while-pulled/ I think it's a good idea, if you like it than join this discussion and make it hot.

 

Also, I don't actually find situations where I'm flat on my back, unable to control my character in any way all that adrenaline-packed.

You may not, someone will, also see link above.

 

I don't know, from where I'm sitting it looks like you're the guy trying to ruin the game for everyone by claiming that 'more adrenaline' = 'more epic fun'. If you enjoy being in situations where you might die at any moment whatsoever while endlessly grinding monotonous jobs for randomly determined gain, join the f**king army and stop ruining games for people who don't.think 'luck based difficulty' is even remotely fun.

 

And I actually did like this game's mechanics, the thing is that they keep ruining those mechanics to cater to toxic customers like you who think anything that kills you, no matter how random, is fun. How about this, DE makes the game so if it detects you logged in, at any moment there's a small chance you'll lose all your health, shields, energy, and ammo and have all your mods unequipped.

 

More situations where you're close to death = more adrenaline = more epic fun. I expect that you'll find this extremely fun and actually pay not only DE to develop this, but pay me $9.99 USD for this brilliant, certainly fun, not at all cheap idea.

There is more toxicity coming from your words than mine and that surely means something. :]

Edited May 25, 2013 by temhun

[Makemap]

Okay, in your strange alternate universe, these enemies primarily impact rushers and people who play methodically never are affected by their agency removal mechanics. Meanwhile, in reality, people who rush and avoid all enemies never get hit and people who don't get stunlocked into No Fun Zone. So yeah, 'qq rushing exploiters' is apt. Those guys are crying tears of joy whenever a new crappy enemy that encourages rushing comes out. Like Scorpions.

 

You know why some people rush? Because fighting enemies isn't fun. You know why that happens? Because we get s**tty enemies like this. And let's just pretend Solo doesn't exist at all and people might not have intermittent internet connections or anything. Yep.

 

What I also found out also that people who rush too far and too fast like Volt doesn't seem to get all the enemy chased. The enemies just go backwards and attack the slower guys coming up.

[Epk_KekAzz_Spaz_Hog]

You know why some people rush? Because fighting enemies isn't fun. You know why that happens? Because we get s**tty enemies like this. And let's just pretend Solo doesn't exist at all and people might not have intermittent internet connections or anything. Yep.

 

I'm actually one of those who like to rush and I can tell how it looks from my perspective.

- I love speed in any game, I've always loved it

- Fighting enemies isn't fun - true, but why I don't find it fun? Because it's too easy for me, it's just another clean up job and I'm here for a reward. I don't waste my time on enemies that don't give me challenging fights. Adding enemies like rollerballs, shockwave moas and others like that, gives my opponents some tactical advantage they need to be challenging as a group. As of now, I still don't find this game to be challenging, but i think it's on the right track.

[MJ12]

There is more toxicity coming from your words than mine and that surely means something. :]

 

You do understand the definition of 'toxic customer', right? You have no legitimate reasons for your argument. All you have is "I feel" and nothing to back it up with. You're basically telling people who are actually frustrated to 'suck it up babbys' because you like the 'challenge' of screwing people over with your rushing and enjoying their schadenfreude.

 

That's what a toxic customer is. My respect towards you or lack thereof doesn't make me a toxic customer, not even close. It doesn't matter if you're the politest person in the world, the fact that you are defending objectively bad game mechanics which drive people to quitting is what makes you a toxic customer.

 

Tell you what. Find me a thread demanding stunlock in the days before it existed in this game which was supported by a large number of posters (you can search to the closed beta era of the forums) and then you can tell me I'm a toxic customer. I make this offer because I know you can't, because it doesn't exist. People asked for more difficulty, not more stunlock, and the two are nowhere near synonymous. I brought up Vanquish and ME3 already. Vanquish is a much harder game and has far fewer enemies which can stun you or stagger you than ME3. Because stunlock is not good challenge. It's just unfun and frustrating. Some people, who don't understand game design, may conflate the two and defend stunlock as 'difficulty' (looking at you), but there is an objective difference between 'f**k you, stop playing' mechanics and 'difficulty'. Not playing is by definition not challenging because you have no way to act. There's no challenge. A vegetable could play Warframe as well as I could while I'm stunlocked.

 

"But you can prevent this by killing the enemies!" Someone will say. That's not a defense. Games should be fun even in failure states. If I am failing, if I am going to inevitably die, I should still be able to deal some damage and look cool. This is especially important in a game with revives, because you can in fact get right back up where you left off and that also serves as a useful game mechanic, as it makes revives more important (and DE makes some money off of them, I bet).

 

 

I'm actually one of those who like to rush and I can tell how it looks from my perspective.

- I love speed in any game, I've always loved it

- Fighting enemies isn't fun - true, but why I don't find it fun? Because it's too easy for me, it's just another clean up job and I'm here for a reward. I don't waste my time on enemies that don't give me challenging fights. Adding enemies like rollerballs, shockwave moas and others like that, gives my opponents some tactical advantage they need to be challenging as a group. As of now, I still don't find this game to be challenging, but i think it's on the right track.

 

So you're one of those guys who breaks the game and then claims that the game is fine because if you play it in this game-breaking way you don't get frustrated. Keep making those excuses! I can tell you unless you're a lot better than I am, and I'm not exactly bad considering the litany of 3rd and 1st person shooters I've beaten on high difficulties, fighting enemies isn't 'too easy' ever since they got their DPS something like quadrupled on high-level planets.

Edited May 25, 2013 by MJ12

[Skullker]

I was about to post this myself, im glad to see im not the only one.

 

I am writing this as a player that mostly plays solo.

 

DE, please look into other ways to mess with a player than fully taking away control from them with next to little counterplay. I touched about this way back in a suggestions thread you had on the design council section that has since then been closed. Visual and Audio impairments can be used, hell make an enemy have an ability that makes me hallucinate a fake world would be better than the obsession with just a hard stun over and over again.

 

Stop completly taking control away from me with cheap mechanics such as a Instantly casted hitscan hook.

 

I am mostly fine with knockbacks/staggers that can be handeled with strategy and positioning like say the leapers knockdown having a charge up time, but this one is just too much.

 

I have three big questions that I want to ask DE about this new enemy and their obsession with hard stuns

 

1) Why cant a ninja at minimum use their pistol weapon when they are being dragged by a grappling hook from the foot?

 

2) Why on earth can i not even react in some way to avoid the grappling hook?  Seriously, if you are going to punish me by stunning the player for at least a 2 second duration which can be the difference of full hp to dead, at least allow me to have an effective means of avoiding it.  The ability should not be hitscan. As an example, Ninja gaiden games have enemy abilities that will literally one shot you, however the games mechanics gives you means to counterplay/avoid it.  The grappling hook has NO counterplay because it is instant.

 

3) For being a space ninja, i feel more like some newbie boy scout with just how often and easily my warframe is staggered/knocked over. Why can't i recover by doing a side roll or backflip at a key frame like i can do in other games such as Ninja Gaiden/Devil May Cry/ etc? Yes granted, warframe doesn't want to make the melee combat system overly complex to match those games, but this would just help so much with how often i lose control entirely due to 'stun locks' while at the same time adding a new skill to the game.

 

Before someone mentions it, Handspring mod is not a solution to a game mechanic that only brings frustation and has no skill cap for the players to try and learn from.

 

 

TLDR: If you are going to keep pouring all of these ways for enemies to punish the players so harshly as to completly take away control from them, then at least offer some tools/mechanics/methods to the players to avoid them. Roll/backflip recovery at a key frame would go a long way.

I have an idea. How about when staggered, pressing a directional+shift+(optional) Melee/skill/shooting, does a jump/summersault/roll and of course attack at the same time. as for getting koncked down, the warframe should have to chances of recovery, first like the one I said before and second when just hitting the floor the warframe gets back on its feet. But this should be hard to achieve, just to make it more satisfactory when pulling it of. what do you guys think?

[11.11.11]

You do understand the definition of 'toxic customer', right? You have no legitimate reasons for your argument. All you have is "I feel" and nothing to back it up with. You're basically telling people who are actually frustrated to 'suck it up babbys' because you like the 'challenge' of screwing people over with your rushing and enjoying their schadenfreude.........................

 

 

Excellent post, couldn't have said it better myself. 

[MJ12]

Anyways I'm going to point out that I've tried thinking of a game with as many no-recovery failure states as Warframe has and the only games I'm thinking of are things like Elona, Nethack, and so on.

 

Roguelikes. Games which are basically only fun in a masochistic way unless you obsessively consult wikis and grind to make sure you have everything necessary. Games which are generally completely free and also always give you a 'cheat mode' which only disables the use of the high-score mechanic.

 

I was trying to think of games with comparable agency removal mechanics, tried thinking of survival horror games, and not a single one came to mind. L4D has CC available solely to special infected which spawn in very low numbers and are basically bosses. At least some of those forms of 'CC' keep partial or full player control. Resident Evil is even better, I don't think a single enemy has a stun and although there's instant kills those guys are relatively easily avoidable or exclusively boss QTEs that are never repeated.

 

Look, games such as survival horror, wherein game mechanics like 'removing your control to some degree' emphasize the 'horror' part (because being incapable of free action is pretty horrible) are less awful about removing player agency than Warframe. Only roguelikes which are niche free games solely for masochistic players have CC mechanics comparable to Warframe. And by 'only roguelikes' I mean 'only a few roguelikes, there are others where CC effects on players don't take away control'.

 

FYI: Warframe is a fast paced third person shooter, not a spiritual successor to Nethack.

[Extinction_Engine]

I don't think I can handle as much stunlock as Geth stunlock.  DE pls.

[yoxola]

I like the Scorpion because I have a long-range primary and fourth power, and it gives me cruel, childish satisfaction to look down on people and teammates who do not perform as well as I do, like when they run afoul of design decisions that punish players for specific playstyles or lack of access or luck for equipments that mitigate loss (invisibility, Warframes with personal defense powers, a rare-for-rare capacity-hungry mod). The Hand of God reaching across a room and stringing someone up next to two Seekers and a Ballista is exactly what I need to feel like I'm 'carrying' all the peasants who just don't get how this game is supposed to be played.

Edited May 25, 2013 by yoxola

[Epk_KekAzz_Spaz_Hog]

@MJ12

There are so many lies about me in your posts that I won't even waste my time on responding. I've never said you are a toxic customer, but I did said you are a toxic person and you just proved that in another post. You don't even know me, but you already have my psychological portrait made up in your mentally disturbed mind. It's very typical for people like you to assume attitude of "me against them".

 

I'm looking forward to find a compromise that both sides will be satisfied with and I'm here mostly because I want to show DE staff, that there are players here, that won't be satisfied with MJ12's radical way of thinking.

[Madotsuki]

I was trying to think of games with comparable agency removal mechanics, tried thinking of survival horror games, and not a single one came to mind. L4D has CC available solely to special infected which spawn in very low numbers and are basically bosses. At least some of those forms of 'CC' keep partial or full player control. Resident Evil is even better, I don't think a single enemy has a stun and although there's instant kills those guys are relatively easily avoidable or exclusively boss QTEs that are never repeated.

Now, I don't play Resident Evil, but I want to elaborate on the Left 4 Dead example: Yes, the special infected can take away player control, in fact for much longer periods of time and usually all the way till player death unless another player helps them. HOWEVER. Aside from being in much smaller numbers, every single special infected that can grapple you are also avoidable with skill. First off, every special infected make unique idle noises from across half the map, so you know when one's on the map and can be cautious about it. Secondly, when they attack, they also make a unique and very loud noise, so you KNOW something's coming. And third, even when they're attacking you can dodge it. Sidestepping a pounce, tongue or charge, i can even punch a Jockey right out of the air mid-pounce, and I'm not even a space ninja with mad parkour skills in that game. And fourth, the L4D series was never meant to be fast-paced or action packed, it was a zombie survival game completely based on 4-player co-op where the players cautiously move through the map while being glued together, unlike Warframe, and even then the enemy grapple abilities are STILL BETTER THAN WARFRAME'S.

Just compare a L4D mob with the Scorpion. The Scorpion has no unique sound. She has no telegraph to the grappling hook, no warning, no nothing. The hook is completely unavoidable, once triggered it will hit and no amount of skill in the world will help you. And with more than one Scorpion, which is common since they spawn like Sawmen (probably MORE than sawmen actually), they will stunlock you for insanely long periods of time, not giving you any ability to counter them because the grappling hook is not avoidable. In pretty much every way shape or form, the Scorpion is much worse than any L4D special infected. Worse, even, than Rollers, because you can actually DODGE Rollers, even in significant numbers, and Rollers need direct physical contact to stagger, much less knock down, and Rollers even have unique sounds as warning. Scorpions have completely broken the record in terms of bad enemy design by DE.

P.S. Has anyone else noticed the Scorpion's in-game description is "Makes the pain feel good"? Why does this feel so much like an intended trololol middle finger salute from DE?

Edited May 25, 2013 by Madotsuki

[Redward]

I've encountered this new enemy couple of times since update 8, but it did give me that "oh shiz watshappenin" reaction. Not many enemies were around because I wiped a queue of them behind. When it comes to Corpus or Grineer, the best I do is look for obstacles where I can take cover then wipe out few of them so I can move on. Some of you here sound like the type who like to run in the middle of nowhere surrounded by every Corpus/Grineer with your pants down saying "uh oh! the public don't like what they see". Well it's just that, you're going to get shot at because none of them are eating donuts.

 

If you want to know who's around the corner shop, use Enemy Radar with a +10. That's enough to quick check your minimap for any red dots and be prepared on corners, but if you're a rusher then that's your problem. If you get Scorpions slowing you down, what's the point of rushing eh? It's not nice to run past your Scorpion ex girlfriends who joined the Grineer army.

 

I do agree that one Scorpion using pull and the other one follows up can be annoying and Tenno-numbing. What I would suggest is that the enemy get the "Ability already in use" error message too so the 2nd Scorpion's pull won't go off on the same player until the first one is timed out and renders the 2nd Scorpion's skill on cooldown (as well as the first Scorpion's after being affected) giving you enough time to react unless you have a snail for a brain.

[Epk_KekAzz_Spaz_Hog]

The Scorpion has no unique sound. She has no telegraph to the grappling hook, no warning, no nothing. The hook is completely unavoidable, once triggered it will hit and no amount of skill in the world will help you.

She doesn't need this, we just need ability to shoot here while dragged. It's very fun mechanic when your enemy is actually taunting you like that, but of course only if you are able to strike back.

 

Some of you here sound like the type who like to run in the middle of nowhere surrounded by every Corpus/Grineer with your pants down saying "uh oh! the public don't like what they see". Well it's just that, you're going to get shot at because none of them are eating donuts.

I have the same impression.

[Xriborg]

What mission are you doing that is giving you all of this trouble? And which warframe are you using that is leaving you with no escape or AoE mechanism?

It's the new grinner enemy that is ruining my fun. And, FYI, it isn't getting me into trouble. I haven't died or even has my shields taken down. It's just not fun to be stunned. It's irritating.

I play in a melee centric way, which means exposing myself to different enemy types more aggressively than others. I can easily overcome the stunlocks just through sheer power of shields and offense...but it's just not fun anymore. The game is becoming tedious to play.

[Epk_KekAzz_Spaz_Hog]

You have a point Xriah, maybe stun resistance mod would do the trick? I think that removing those enemies is too radical way to deal with that problem, so probably best solution is to add more options to counter that. If you have an idea how you would like to counter that than share it.

[Emotitron]

It's the new grinner enemy that is ruining my fun. And, FYI, it isn't getting me into trouble. I haven't died or even has my shields taken down. It's just not fun to be stunned. It's irritating.

I play in a melee centric way, which means exposing myself to different enemy types more aggressively than others. I can easily overcome the stunlocks just through sheer power of shields and offense...but it's just not fun anymore. The game is becoming tedious to play.

 

That is fine if you chose to play that way. They can't nerf an enemy because it isn't letting you play the way you want when you want. You have to adopt a different strategy when there scorpions around. Snipe them down first before charging in. If you insist on charging in bring a frame that lets you get out of jail free... whatever. They can't nerf content for one type of player when so many other players have been complaining that content is too easy and bland. They add some interesting enemies that require different strategies, most of us are going to embrace that.

If find nothing tedious at all about mobs that manhandle me if I am not careful. I in fact find the opposite tedious as do many others. I have yet to be on a mission and seen anyone truly ruined by any of the mobs (with the exception of toxics, they seem to eat new players).

[Emotitron]

You have a point Xriah, maybe stun resistance mod would do the trick? I think that removing those enemies is too radical way to deal with that problem, so probably best solution is to add more options to counter that. If you have an idea how you would like to counter that than share it.

 

This I am in favor of. A resistance slot would be a good addition. To make it meaningful though I would like to see enemies start using more elemental damage.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Emotitron