Damn You Stunlock Man! (Or: Please Stop Giving Enemies Cc)

[V0LK]

So fun to be grabbed thru walls, midair, with no ability to recover or dodge it! If there are more then one of them in a room, I can go make myself a coffe, while my corpse will be dragged all over the room.

 

Like there were not enough threads about Chargers and Rollers.

 

Why hold yourself, DE? Give every enemy chance to stan player with every shot! Maybe 50-70%.

[ToeSama]

No, I would like a separate slot to exist for warframes where players can chose one or maybe two resistances. The entire mod system as it is is an oversimplified yawn that makes a mockery of metagame.

 

While I partially agree, I believe even with their own slots, they are just a bandaid fix. Certain aspects of the game need to be addressed in the suits themselves, not in the mods. Lack of a recovery ability/protection from stunlock shenanigans is not an area where a mod would be the prime choice of correction. Such things should be built into the suits and improved upon through leveling, not farming for more rare bandaids...

[Emotitron]

While I partially agree, I believe even with their own slots, they are just a bandaid fix. Certain aspects of the game need to be addressed in the suits themselves, not in the mods. Lack of a recovery ability/protection from stunlock shenanigans is not an area where a mod would be the prime choice of correction. Such things should be built into the suits and improved upon through leveling, not farming for more rare bandaids...

 

Except some of us have no problems at all with these mobs, and it would just be nerfing content for us.

[Boomstick720]

Here is my concern to all those who are saying "just let me shoot while I'm being pulled".  It kind of kills the point of the enemy, because if anything, they are helping you now.  Why would sliding across the floor be a detriment to you, especially if you don't actually have to think about doing it?

 

I've stated it before in another thread, so I'll just copy paste it here.

 

Alright so I had a crazy idea here, so just bear with me.

 

What if we actually BUFFED the scorpions as they are now, but NERFED the appearance rate?  In other words, make them an elite enemy.  We have 2 different "male grinneer" elites, but we only have one "female grineer" elite.  

 

My proposition is this.  I say that while we remove the wall hacks autoaim stuff, we give the scorpion the range of a sniper, and buff the health a bit.  That way, its like fighting a sniper, but its actually a very valid threat.  The Lotus basically saying that "an elite enemy is coming" I think would be sufficient cause for warning of this enemy, and it would provide a very dangerous threat that requires you to be extremely aware of not only your close quarters, but also your long range.  This "elite" could be different from the rest in that it in itself is not as much of a bullet sponge, but it can be strong enough to warrant notice from a team.  It also kind of forces a team to be mobile, as they can be pulled out of an entrenched position, which further reinforces the idea of "moving fast and often" stuff.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Boomstick720

[ToeSama]

Except some of us have no problems at all with these mobs, and it would just be nerfing content for us.

 

Content requires that the enemies be genuinely difficult to fight, not utilize fake difficulty to make it seem like their AI isn't horribad. Mobs are one thing, mobs of mooks that can only win by virtue of inflated level and/or cheep tactics that are not fun is just bad game design. And if they want to keep running it that way, there needs to be a much better fix on the players side than another wasted mod slot, or even a new mod slot with new mods to clog up the already horrible rng drop rates with something that should be a general non issue anywhere but the most difficult of places.

 

I personally do not have any of the issues with the scorpion chicks that other people do, but I understand poor choice in game design when i see it. Real difficulty is not based on cheep tactics that prevent the player from doing anything at all for one little slip up.

[Emotitron]

Content requires that the enemies be genuinely difficult to fight, not utilize fake difficulty to make it seem like their AI isn't horribad. Mobs are one thing, mobs of mooks that can only win by virtue of inflated level and/or cheep tactics that are not fun is just bad game design. And if they want to keep running it that way, there needs to be a much better fix on the players side than another wasted mod slot, or even a new mod slot with new mods to clog up the already horrible rng drop rates with something that should be a general non issue anywhere but the most difficult of places.

 

I personally do not have any of the issues with the scorpion chicks that other people do, but I understand poor choice in game design when i see it. Real difficulty is not based on cheep tactics that prevent the player from doing anything at all for one little slip up.

 

Well, while I appreciating you deciding which mechanic does and doesn't work for the rest of us... would it not just be easier to leave all of the mechanics in there and just give players ways to build in metagame around how they play? You don't have issues with the grapple, others do have issues with that. Some hate roller balls. Some hate ancients. You can't just nerf them all because some partial demographic just isn't feeling it.

Adding options for resists gives players some control over which content does and doesn't trouble them.

[ToeSama]

Well, while I appreciating you deciding which mechanic does and doesn't work for the rest of us... would it not just be easier to leave all of the mechanics in there and just give players ways to build in metagame around how they play? You don't have issues with the grapple, others do have issues with that. Some hate roller balls. Some hate ancients. You can't just nerf them all because some partial demographic just isn't feeling it.

Adding options for resists gives players some control over which content does and doesn't trouble them.

 

The option for resists isn't what I feel is a bad idea, it's the concept that it shouldn't come as a standard to leveling up, and instead should come as an optional equip that would do little to fix the problem without adding onto other existing issues with the game design. More mods would clog the rng, and until the rng improves, more mods would not be advised as a common way to counter certain game aspects. Some suits lack in certain areas, but can't even use the mods to support those areas because those mods work better for people who don't lack in those areas.

 

Yes, your original statement that Mods on a whole are not well conceived is right, but adding another poorly conceived mod to the pot is not the answer, even if it does get its own slot so we don't have to take up space that would be used for other mods. It is a bandaid fix. The enemies need to be adjusted, or the players do, if not both. Mods should be there to augment the players, not cover up glaring flaws in the game design on a whole.

[Emotitron]

The option for resists isn't what I feel is a bad idea, it's the concept that it shouldn't come as a standard to leveling up, and instead should come as an optional equip that would do little to fix the problem without adding onto other existing issues with the game design. More mods would clog the rng, and until the rng improves, more mods would not be advised as a common way to counter certain game aspects. Some suits lack in certain areas, but can't even use the mods to support those areas because those mods work better for people who don't lack in those areas.

 

Yes, your original statement that Mods on a whole are not well conceived is right, but adding another poorly conceived mod to the pot is not the answer, even if it does get its own slot so we don't have to take up space that would be used for other mods. It is a bandaid fix. The enemies need to be adjusted, or the players do, if not both. Mods should be there to augment the players, not cover up glaring flaws in the game design on a whole.

I just don't see stun dynamics being a glaring flaw. For example, players scream about roller balls, but if they just brought a fragor, scindo, or warframe with AoE they wouldn't even think twice about them. People should be coming to forums asking "How should I deal with XXXX? It is kicking my butt"... instead they come to the forum and scream "XXXX kicked my butt, the game sucks and needs to be remade".

And yes, I know the response coming for this. "It doesn't kick my butt, I never die to it, it just annoys me". Same deal. If something is getting the best of one player and not another - it is a challenge and should be treated as such.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Emotitron

[fishworshipper]

I just don't see stun dynamics being a glaring flaw. For example, players scream about roller balls, but if they just brought a fragor, scindo, or warframe with AoE they wouldn't even think twice about them. People should be coming to forums asking "How should I deal with XXXX? It is kicking my butt"... instead they come to the forum and scream "XXXX kicked my butt, the game sucks and needs to be remade".

And yes, I know the response coming for this. "It doesn't kick my butt, I never die to it, it just annoys me". Same deal. If something is getting the best of one player and not another - it is a challenge and should be treated as such.

You don't seem to get it.

The problem with Scorpions is NOT that they stun.

The problem is that they stun instantly, at just about any range, through walls, in an unavoidable and uncounterable fashion.

[ToeSama]

I just don't see stun dynamics being a glaring flaw. For example, players scream about roller balls, but if they just brought a fragor, scindo, or warframe with AoE they wouldn't even think twice about them. People should be coming to forums asking "How should I deal with XXXX? It is kicking my butt"... instead they come to the forum and scream "XXXX kicked my butt, the game sucks and needs to be remade".

And yes, I know the response coming for this. "It doesn't kick my butt, I never die to it, it just annoys me". Same deal. If something is getting the best of one player and not another - it is a challenge and should be treated as such.

 

Your definition of challenge and mine differ greatly in that regard. I see no challenge in any enemies. They have nothing but numbers going for them in every aspect. The number of roller balls plus the number of regular enemies plus the level of these threats. Numbers in and of themselves are not a challenge, and the way in which DE tries to challenge me in this regard is not only cheep in the execution and the development quality of the enemy AI, but straight up boring, and it's not just me that thinks this. If they're going to keep with a boring enemy paradigm, they need to give players way to circumvent the problem areas that do not revolve around the rng. You can still have a challenge in an enemy that grabs you and drags you along the floor, but no one should have to pray to the rng gods in hopes that they will bestow upon them their mercy and give them the right mod to counter such a threat when making resistance/stand up speed a part of some (if not all) suits leveling up is just as easy.

 

I've played challenging games with a grind based reward system before. Warframe is not one of them. I understand this is beta, but when the rng drop rates are so horrible that some players will never see some mods above common rarity even on Pluto, new mods is not the end all be all solution to every thing wrong with the game, whether its only wrong in some players eyes, or all players eyes.

 

I don't care if players like the fake challenge of scorpions, and other players don't. What I care about is that the game doesn't become even more of a farming nightmare. The solution you offer turns it into just that. THAT is what I am against. There are so many better things to offer players to farm than whether or not we can resist a boring crowd control effect in a max level suit.

[Emotitron]

Your definition of challenge and mine differ greatly in that regard. I see no challenge in any enemies. They have nothing but numbers going for them in every aspect. The number of roller balls plus the number of regular enemies plus the level of these threats. Numbers in and of themselves are not a challenge, and the way in which DE tries to challenge me in this regard is not only cheep in the execution and the development quality of the enemy AI, but straight up boring, and it's not just me that thinks this. If they're going to keep with a boring enemy paradigm, they need to give players way to circumvent the problem areas that do not revolve around the rng. You can still have a challenge in an enemy that grabs you and drags you along the floor, but no one should have to pray to the rng gods in hopes that they will bestow upon them their mercy and give them the right mod to counter such a threat when making resistance/stand up speed a part of some (if not all) suits leveling up is just as easy.

 

I've played challenging games with a grind based reward system before. Warframe is not one of them. I understand this is beta, but when the rng drop rates are so horrible that some players will never see some mods above common rarity even on Pluto, new mods is not the end all be all solution to every thing wrong with the game, whether its only wrong in some players eyes, or all players eyes.

 

I don't care if players like the fake challenge of scorpions, and other players don't. What I care about is that the game doesn't become even more of a farming nightmare. The solution you offer turns it into just that. THAT is what I am against. There are so many better things to offer players to farm than whether or not we can resist a boring crowd control effect in a max level suit.

 

Yup, we won't agree, which is why the game needs to give players more options on how to deal with the game content and 'make' the game their own.

The contentless farming nightmare it is becoming is a different topic, one I like agree with.

[MJ12]

I just don't see stun dynamics being a glaring flaw. For example, players scream about roller balls, but if they just brought a fragor, scindo, or warframe with AoE they wouldn't even think twice about them. People should be coming to forums asking "How should I deal with XXXX? It is kicking my butt"... instead they come to the forum and scream "XXXX kicked my butt, the game sucks and needs to be remade".

And yes, I know the response coming for this. "It doesn't kick my butt, I never die to it, it just annoys me". Same deal. If something is getting the best of one player and not another - it is a challenge and should be treated as such.

 

So you have to have a certain weapon to kill common enemies and have fun? This craps all over the concept of 'sidegrades'. In fact, it even craps over the concept of 'upgrades'. No, people shouldn't be coming to forums going 'how should I deal with XXXX? It is kicking my butt'. If they are doing this, it means the game has not adequately taught them how to play, which is a failing of the game, not the player.

 

When that butt-kicking is prolonged, unfun, and agency-removing, 'this game sucks and needs to be remade' is an entirely valid counterpoint. If you like the threat of being killed or stunlocked randomly and think it's a 'challenge', play something like Nethack, where 90+% of your deaths are exactly that.

[ToeSama]

The contentless farming nightmare it is becoming is a different topic, one I like agree with.

 

Except it is the entire basis of which your solution is grounded upon, so even if it is a different topic, you are dragging it into this one. If the game does not yet have the effective means to prevent a certain type of challenge from enemies without hindering the use of it in some form or fashion, the enemy needs to be reworked, or possibly removed, until such a time presents itself.

 

Should stun enemies go away for good? No. Should they go away until the game system successfully implements a way to circumvent them slightly? Yes, as it's quite clear that a large number of folks are unhappy with the tactic. A non rng based solution to give players a circumventing option is a better way to go about it than an rng based solution like the mod solution you offered.

Edited May 28, 2013 by ToeSama

[Emotitron]

So you have to have a certain weapon to kill common enemies and have fun? This craps all over the concept of 'sidegrades'. In fact, it even craps over the concept of 'upgrades'. No, people shouldn't be coming to forums going 'how should I deal with XXXX? It is kicking my butt'. If they are doing this, it means the game has not adequately taught them how to play, which is a failing of the game, not the player.

 

When that butt-kicking is prolonged, unfun, and agency-removing, 'this game sucks and needs to be remade' is an entirely valid counterpoint. If you like the threat of being killed or stunlocked randomly and think it's a 'challenge', play something like Nethack, where 90+% of your deaths are exactly that.

If you say so. And if the game you desire them to turn it into is boring to others?

[Dueler]

What I don't understand is the description for those Scorpions. Something with pleasure in pain? That's some kinky stuff.

[ToeSama]

If you say so. And if the game you desire them to turn it into is boring to others?

 

Then it still needs to be fixed until it is an adequate challenge, but not an utter annoyance. One option should not obsolete the other,

[Shrooms]

Don't remove the new enemies, keep em coming i finally see some variety in the enemies which is awesome :)

I would be real happy if almost every enemy had different skills and they worked together to make the encounters even harder.

[MJ12]

If you say so. And if the game you desire them to turn it into is boring to others?

 

This is not an opinion. This is pretty much as objective a truth of game design that you get.

 

Games which are annoying are bad, because a game isn't work. If a player doesn't like it, they might get angry about it and post on the forums but they might also quit. All mechanics, therefore, should be designed to be as not-annoying as possible.

 

People keep claiming LoL is some kind of hardcore game, for example. A lot of elite MOBA players thumbed their nose at it, though. It had mechanics which basically eliminated stunlocks, which were where you got most of your kills in previous MOBAs and its competitors. It was denigrated as being 'noob friendly' and 'boring'. People trotted out the same arguments you and others like you did. 'stunlock = fear = fun', 'it'll be boring without these mechanics', 'it'll just be for noobs'.

 

Its competitor, which catered to those hardcores, died. LoL became the most popular game in the world.

 

So what can we get from that? As long as it's exciting and not annoying to casual players, people will adapt. More importantly, there is this thing called 'core mechanics'. Right now, this stunlock and slow recovery paradigm completely breaks core mechanics of the game. There is no way to adjust difficulty properly when there are so many things, like the superiority of cover shooting, the prevalence of stunlocks, and the randomness of energy, that make it possible for two players playing the same map with the same weapons, mods, and warframes, with the same skill level, to have entirely different experiences in difficulty. Just due to playstyle differences and randomness.

[Mak_Gohae]

So you have to have a certain weapon to kill common enemies and have fun? This craps all over the concept of 'sidegrades'. In fact, it even craps over the concept of 'upgrades'. No, people shouldn't be coming to forums going 'how should I deal with XXXX? It is kicking my butt'. If they are doing this, it means the game has not adequately taught them how to play, which is a failing of the game, not the player.

 

When that butt-kicking is prolonged, unfun, and agency-removing, 'this game sucks and needs to be remade' is an entirely valid counterpoint. If you like the threat of being killed or stunlocked randomly and think it's a 'challenge', play something like Nethack, where 90+% of your deaths are exactly that.

 

What game out there tells you how to defeat every single enemy there is in game?

 

BTW, bring a shotgun and aim down, bring a Sentinel with a ice mod to slow them down, there are several ways to deal with these things that if you cant figure out...... you shouldn't be playing video games made for people over the age of 8.

[Emotitron]

Then it still needs to be fixed until it is an adequate challenge, but not an utter annoyance. One option should not obsolete the other,

 

I'm fine with that. My issue is the daily "this annoys me, remove/nerf it immediately" posts that litter the forums. It would be much better for people to constructively suggest ways to turn annoying things into genuinely more challenging ones.

[MJ12]

What game out there tells you how to defeat every single enemy there is in game?

 

BTW, bring a shotgun and aim down, bring a Sentinel with a ice mod to slow them down, there are several ways to deal with these things that if you cant figure out...... you shouldn't be playing video games made for people over the age of 8.

 

Good games? They tell you. Via gameplay. Maybe not in the same place, but they do things like show you you have this cool charge attack that does a ton of damage but takes a chargeup time...

 

and you have an enemy with a ton of toughness and damage but an attack that stuns him for long enough to use that attack once, maybe twice if you're really on the ball. Good games give you that information instead of making you ask people for it.

 

Also, I'm sure you can aim down while stunlocked and not capable of doing anything. The point is that the result of these enemies attacking is out of proportion with their commonality and their implied threat.

[BlueCremeSoda]

There should be a way to dodge it or block it or somehow defend. Taking action out of the hands of the player is terrible design.

 

Let us shoot them while being dragged, don't let us get dragged constantly without a chance to recover. Something. It shouldn't come down to mods and luck with getting mods. We can dodge the majority of attacks, even most infested attacks can be dodged. The scorpion rope of doom cannot be dodged. That is a problem. It can't be defended at all. It really is a problem. It has nothing to do with it being simply "it annoys me, change it" to a lot of people. It comes down to taking control away from the player. Elemental damage resistance isn't required to do well because you can avoid attacks. But requiring a mod just to counter something that's otherwise unavoidable? Awful design.

 

As it stands, it is not a fun mechanic, it is not challenging, It is cheap and unrewarding. It's worthless. It should all be able to be handled through skill. You shouldn't be forced into using something outside of skill. Yes, mods make things easier, yes they can make the game more fun, but at no point should they be required in place of skill or action.

 

It is even more problematic because you can be constantly pulled. This is a terrible thing.

Edited May 28, 2013 by BlueCremeSoda

[crow-k]

In this thread, people who need more shields. Is it annoying yes. Could we shoot during the pulll, I would like to. I support this. But the whining. That is bad.

[MJ12]

In this thread, people who need more shields. Is it annoying yes. Could we shoot during the pulll, I would like to. I support this. But the whining. That is bad.

 

Yes, the whining is bad. So why don't you stop whining about people who want to have fun, while defending things which are objectively not fun because they annoy other people more, thus they're clearly good mechanics and you should just lrn2play. Frankly, the Stunlock Ball-Lickers are the whiners here, while the people who hate them are pretty rational.

 

Stop mindlessly defending something just because it annoys people and you don't understand 'challenge' and 'annoyance' and 'frustration' aren't the same thing. Also, 'need more shields'?

 

No, I just need a skill-based mechanic to recover from single small mistakes when dealing with very common enemies with poorly telegraphed attacks.

Edited May 28, 2013 by MJ12

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

Lets all agree on something. The enemy AI is in most cases, pathetic. Good AI is hard to code, we get that, and it's beta so allowances are made. But if our enemies even looked like they were trying to flank us or at least do anything other than:

 

*round corner* 

"OH NO LOOK! SPACE NINJA'S!" 

*run backwards, turning at the hip and spraying lead randomly.* 

*Chuck grenade / send in rollers / call moa's / scream for Scorpians / whistle for a Sheild Lancer / hand-signal for a heavy gunner / telegraph a leach osprey* 

 

*repeat* 

 

 

 

How would you handle it if you were on the other side? Think about it, you're guarding a station that you know MIGHT get attacked, sirens start to go off and you get them coming at you via sensors. You have to defend the objective and you only have your meagre shields and your pew pew gun which does laughable damage. You can call in heavies. But, before you have a chance to, they come running at you, three of  them, ON THE WALLS! They shoot at you and one shot your teammates with melee. These begins are elite, they have 800 or more shields, their HP is about the same, they wield weapons with a LOT higher ROF than you have and if they hit you, you're dead in two hits. Meanwhile, as you're panicking that they're taking out your squadmates in mere SECONDS you decide to call for a MOA, but before you manage to do that, you die because the Loki behind you just stabbed you in the back (he was cloaked).

 

Really, if I'd been a Corpus crewman, I would have run like the devil was after me if I saw any Tenno coming (even on sensors).

 

Edit: I would also love to play 50 people against 4 with reasonable balancing to account for it. That would make the PvP arena seem like a childs toy by comparison.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Hap-muhr