Damn You Stunlock Man! (Or: Please Stop Giving Enemies Cc)

[Mak_Gohae]

Good games? They tell you. Via gameplay. Maybe not in the same place, but they do things like show you you have this cool charge attack that does a ton of damage but takes a chargeup time...

 

and you have an enemy with a ton of toughness and damage but an attack that stuns him for long enough to use that attack once, maybe twice if you're really on the ball. Good games give you that information instead of making you ask people for it.

 

Also, I'm sure you can aim down while stunlocked and not capable of doing anything. The point is that the result of these enemies attacking is out of proportion with their commonality and their implied threat.

 

So wait, games that are good tell you how everything functions, right? Does that mean that games that dont tell you are bad or cannot be classified as good?

 

Because i'm about to drop a list of very successful games that dont tell you crap about how to defeat enemies. 

[Keetsune]

Game is provide no chalange for 30+ geared squad and u want make it more easy? 100500 time's no on this sugestion, make game more harder plz, i'm sereous.

[Tyrfalger]

Mark my words, if this CC madness continues, infested chargers will end up getting the Overwhelm ability from Dragon Age. (Basically like those quicktime events in FPS's when a dog rushes at you and pins you down and you have to mash buttons to get it off/kill it.)

[MJ12]

Game is provide no chalange for 30+ geared squad and u want make it more easy? 100500 time's no on this sugestion, make game more harder plz, i'm sereous.

 

Yes, such a good argument. "The game isn't challenging so we'll leave in mechanics that don't challenge anything but the player's patience and clearly aren't making the game 'challenging' but do frustrate players and make the game seem harder than it is, instead of actually removing frustrating mechanics and replacing them with challenging ones". Your mastery of the english language reflects your mastery of game design.

 

 

So wait, games that are good tell you how everything functions, right? Does that mean that games that dont tell you are bad or cannot be classified as good?

 

Because i'm about to drop a list of very successful games that dont tell you crap about how to defeat enemies. 

 

Ah yes, I see you don't understand how something can be a good feature and yet not strictly necessary to be 'good', and I see you also don't understand that 'successful' and 'well designed' are not precisely the same thing.

[Amistyrja]

Game is provide no chalange for 30+ geared squad and u want make it more easy? 100500 time's no on this sugestion, make game more harder plz, i'm sereous.

You're suggesting for the game to challenge how many times I can scream "F**K YOU SCORPIONS" in one day instead of my technique, tactics and skill? An excellent idea.

[Tsukinoki]

A difficult enemy is one that requires player skill to beat, not rely on luck to beat it.

If you round a corner and see 5 Scorpions you try taking them out fast. If one throws out the rope and pulls you towards it you have to *hope* that one of the others wont do that immediately while your being shot at, and then that the rest don't all take their time with you.

That is not a challenge, That is not difficult. That is just frustrating. With their mechanics of having 20 meter range through cover and floors you have to *hope* that they aren't going to chain pull you, because if they do all you can do is sit there and watch as your shields and health are ripped apart.

You can't do *anything* to counter them once they start pulling you. You can't predict when they'll appear. You can only hope that you don't run into a large group of them.

That is bad enemy design when the only way for them to not be frustrating and avoid getting cheap kills on you is to hope that they don't come at you in groups of more than 2.

DE needs to do one of a few things (or a combination):

1) Make the scorpions tougher but rarer, more like heavy grineer

2) Give them a longer CD between rope usages

3) Make it so that you cant be targeted by another rope pull immediately after (or during) a rope pull.

4) Make it so that they cant ignore cover and floors while using their rope

5) Make it so that we can shoot while being pulled along the floor

6) Give the rope attack some form of windup and a way to avoid it

Any combination of those would make them far less frustrating, wouldn't really nerf them at all, and would make them an interesting addition to the grineer forces.

The only downside to them is their ability to chain pull you across rooms where you have *zero* recourse except to sit there and be shot to pieces.

Contrary to some peoples belief it is possible to have a challenging/difficult enemy *without* it being a frustrating enemy. You can have fun and hard at the same time. The scorpions as they currently are are neither.

[Keetsune]

You're suggesting for the game to challenge how many times I can scream "F**K YOU SCORPIONS" in one day instead of my technique, tactics and skill? An excellent idea.

LTP

[Tsukinoki]

@Keetsune

How it is a LTP issue when you walk around a corner and are *instantly* pulled by one scorpion and then another and another... until they get bored of pulling your &#! around the floor?

Is LTP learning to avoid grineer missions if you dont want to be frustrated by a cheap enemy?

Or are you suggesting that LTP means learning to be psychic to figure out if there is a scorpion in the next room that will pull you through the door with no warning?

[yoxola]

As far as I can tell, as of this hotfix the Scorpion cord is avoidable.

[Kiteless]

So wait, games that are good tell you how everything functions, right? Does that mean that games that dont tell you are bad or cannot be classified as good?

 

Because i'm about to drop a list of very successful games that dont tell you crap about how to defeat enemies. 

 

 

Watch this. Learn the magic of good game design.

[The7thGuardian]

there should be a dodge system so that you can dodge the rollers

[Mak_Gohae]

Ah yes, I see you don't understand how something can be a good feature and yet not strictly necessary to be 'good',

 

Ah, yes, i see that this has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

 

 

and I see you also don't understand that 'successful' and 'well designed' are not precisely the same thing.

 

I see that you changed the words you are using now because you know you drove yourself into a corner.

 

So what good game tells you how to defeat every type of enemy?

Care to name a few?

[CosyPigeon]

+1 to this. We have more than enough stun lock enemies, time to actually work on the existing enemies AI. If DE lacks the programig expertise to achieve improved AI, then perhaps they should look into expanding their programming team. 

[CosyPigeon]

@Keetsune

How it is a LTP issue when you walk around a corner and are *instantly* pulled by one scorpion and then another and another... until they get bored of pulling your &#! around the floor?

Is LTP learning to avoid grineer missions if you dont want to be frustrated by a cheap enemy?

Or are you suggesting that LTP means learning to be psychic to figure out if there is a scorpion in the next room that will pull you through the door with no warning?

 

Man i'm jealous, you get to walk around a corner first? I just get lassoed straight through cover :/

[Tsukinoki]

@CosyPigeon

I get to walk around the corner the first or second time...by then the enemies have been alerted and it no longer works. But those first two times at least I get to shoot at one or two of them!

And it really sucks when one isn't alerted to you, somehow lassoes you and then proceeds to drag you behind it while it walks through the level while enemies start shooting...

[Kyte]

As far as I can tell, as of this hotfix the Scorpion cord is avoidable.

Just ran Grineer and it feels this way as well. Anyone confirm?

 

 

I see that you changed the words you are using now because you know you drove yourself into a corner.

 

So what good game tells you how to defeat every type of enemy?

Care to name a few?

Legend of Zelda. Pokemon. Metroid. Can't think outside of Nintendo right now.

Granted, they don't hold your hand but they give you all the tools so you can apply some basic logic and figure it out.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Kyte

[Tsukinoki]

@Kyte & Mak_Gohae

There is also the megaman series, especially megaman X.

The first time they introduce a new enemy they do it with more than enough time to see its gimmick then they start using that enemy against you in a actual dangerous matter, but since you know the gimmick you aren't getting frustrated at the game because it didn't tell you how to deal with them. Same with environment hazards. And when they introduce an enemy that hits hard you can usually see them attack once or twice before you get to them, meaning that you know that they are there and a threat AND how to avoid their attack pattern.

Take the walker enemies in the first level of Megaman X. They introduce them from a miniboss as they slowly walk across the screen. You have more than enough time to figure out that you cant shoot their legs and have to shoot their bodies. This teaches you two things: 1) some enemies have weakpoints you have to hit; 2) these enemies die quickly if shot in the body. The miniboss is also well done and teaches you some of the jump dodging without any popups or actually telling you anything.

The Metroid series is also an excellent game series in terms of game design. Most of the time you'll come across small areas that you cant walk through because their too short, and you cant crouch and move at the same time. When you get the morph ball powerup they dont tell you how it can be used, they show you by having one of those areas nearby as the only way to escape and let you put 2 and 2 together. That does 2 things: 1) teach you how to use the morph ball without saying "You can get through smaller areas now!" and 2) When you go through the smaller area you immediately go "Hey! I've seen these in other areas, lets go check them out!" and then you go and explore those areas more thoroughly.

Those are two examples of *great* game design where the game does "tell" you how to deal with each enemy and obstacle that you come across. Also with very few counter examples those games DONT just drop an enemy with a disabling attack right on top of you with zero time to react. Every time one of the enemies that can disable you appear you are given more than enough time to see them, prioritize them, and try to take them out. And if that fails you can avoid there telegraphed attacks so it doesn't feel unfair when the enemies hit you.

With the Scorpions: if you are chain dragged you dont feel like you made a mistake, you are &!$$ed at the game for dragging you around the room endlessly while you are being shot up. If they gave the scorpions a larger telegraph of their rope attack, made them more noticeable, and spawned them so you wouldn't immediately be grabbed by one of them as well as in fewer numbers, then you wouldn't get angry that you were grabbed you would rightly feel that you messed up. Currently you shouldnt feel that way because they can spawn in large groups, right behind a door, and can grab you through the door with zero warning.

There is a similar issue when you get a large group of rollers coming at you.

When its one or two and you get hit you dont feel angry at the game because it was your fault and you can deal with them. When you have upwards of 5 or 6 all taking turns and perma-staggering you, you get angry at the game because there is NOTHING the player can do to predict that there is that many, neither is there a way to reliably escape. You just have to hope that the rollers glitch out or something.

Those two enemies are examples of bad enemy design that can be done a lot better with a few tweaks to their AI and abilities. And the main mechanic that would go a long way to fixing them is to put in something that prevents chain staggering/stunning. Diminishing rewards with stun being the preferable way to do so. An example would be that once you are stunned the next stun within a few seconds should only stun for say 4/5ths of the duration. The next at 3/5ths and it goes on until for a few seconds you *cant* be stunned again, guaranteeing you a way to eventually escape. And this should apply to player generated stuns as well so you cant stunlock bosses either.

There are also other ways that units can punish the player without resorting to removal of player control, which in general is a very bad thing to do. Its like the old school games where bosses can "charm" your party to be on their side for a duration. If they do it to your whole party you just sit there watching them rip each other apart without being able to do anything. Is it challenging? Sure. Is it fair and fun? No. The enemies that can perma-stagger/stun/drag around endlessly are a very similar mechanic. Sure they can be dangerous but they aren't fun, they are only difficult because they abuse a broken mechanic (which is fake difficulty right there), and need to be re-worked into proper enemies that are actually fun and interesting to fight.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Winterbraid]

I think being pulled by a Scorpion should initiate a tug o' war mini-game between you and the Scorpion, where you have to tap the backwards movement key rapidly in order to win. During which you won't be targeted by regular enemies, but other Scorpions who are nearby can join the tug o' war on the side of the Scorpion, and other players can join the war on your side. Losing the tug o' war will knock down and severely damage all players involved, while winning will kill the Scorpions and provide a random reward.

[Boomstick720]

I think being pulled by a Scorpion should initiate a tug o' war mini-game between you and the Scorpion, where you have to tap the backwards movement key rapidly in order to win. During which you won't be targeted by regular enemies, but other Scorpions who are nearby can join the tug o' war on the side of the Scorpion, and other players can join the war on your side. Losing the tug o' war will knock down and severely damage all players involved, while winning will kill the Scorpions and provide a random reward.

Oh god please not QTEs.

 

 

[MJ12]

Oh god please not QTEs.

 

Warframe's stunlock and get up animations make me really wish for QTEs.

 

And that's terrible.

[PositronicSpleen]

I think the Corpus are the best enemy right now.

No stunlockers (Railgun Moa stagger, but it's breif and they shoot slowly enough that you can respond)

Dodgeable Knockdown enemy. If I get hit with a Shockwave I think "oops, my fault" not "go die in a fire, programmers!"

They can hit you behind or through cover with railguns, and the Crew appear to use grenades a lot more than Grineer.

Good mix of enemies that require different tactics to take on.

Mobility really helps against them, since almost all their guns are dodgeable.

Is the person who designed the Corpus a different person? Because they are doing it right.

This is from a few pages back, but I feel this is worth repeating. These are reasons why Corpus units complement the core game mechanics. More things should do that.

[Depar]

just let me shoot there face if they grab me :3

 

grab me one more time

 

i dare you, i double dare you mf

[-Kittens-]

Volleyball of Damocles is now a thing.

 

U9 weapon, make it so.

[-Kittens-]

Just ran Grineer and it feels this way as well. Anyone confirm?

 

 

Legend of Zelda. Pokemon. Metroid. Can't think outside of Nintendo right now.

Granted, they don't hold your hand but they give you all the tools so you can apply some basic logic and figure it out.

 

Mass Effect

Metal Gear

Heretic

DooM

CastleVania

Metal Arms: a Glitch in the system

AvP2

Deus Ex

[Madotsuki]

It looks like DE stealth-hotfixed the Scorpion. There is now a less than half a second window of opportunity to dodge the grappling hook, though still no telegraph at all, still pull spam if caught. In other words, if you're already doing rediculous parkour for whatever reason when they show up, you'll probably dodge them. If not, you won't even get a chance to roll away, just like before.