Shotgun Buffs (U17 Megathread Topic)

[ArbitUHM]

Why exactly was my post proving the Boar Prime has gotten worse been removed? I'd like an explanation.

Here is the video again for anyone who missed it: 

It's still there. Threads have been merged/demerged, so that may have bounced it to a different page depending on how many posts you have it set to display per page.

 

I'd be curious to see what build you're using. BP got a 43% buff in damage, so I'm curious if the decrease in effectiveness is due purely to the status chance decrease. I notice you said you're using the exact same build, and judging by how many status indicators are flying around, it looks like you're comparing a 100% status build to a sub-100% build. I'm guessing swapping out an 11 point damage mod for a dual stat mod to bring it back up to 100% will close the TTK gap by quite a bit.

[Fruchtpudding]

It's still there. Threads have been merged/demerged, so that may have bounced it to a different page depending on how many posts you have it set to display per page.

 

I'd be curious to see what build you're using. BP got a 43% buff in damage, so I'm curious if the decrease in effectiveness is due purely to the status chance decrease. I notice you said you're using the exact same build, and judging by how many status indicators are flying around, it looks like you're comparing a 100% status build to a sub-100% build. I'm guessing swapping out an 11 point damage mod for a dual stat mod to bring it back up to 100% will close the TTK gap by quite a bit.

 

No it's definitely not there, the people quoting my posts still are and my others are also still there, just that initial post got definitely deleted.

And of course I'm comparing a 100% build to a sub 100% build, the base status chance was nerfed by 10% so the same build does not get to 100% status anymore.

And I have no 90% elemental mod I could swap out. The only mod that I could realistically swap is Shotgun Spazz and trust me, putting in another status mod in place of that will not make TTKs better since the Boars base fire rate was also nerfed and it needs it more than ever. That build got the best TTKs before the nerf and it still gets it now, none of the stats were changed in a way that it would require a radically different build. What worked then works now except it's worse.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Fruchtpudding

[ArbitUHM]

No it's definitely not there, the people quoting my posts still are and my others are also still there, just that initial post got definitely deleted.

And of course I'm comparing a 100% build to a sub 100% build, the base status chance was nerfed by 10% so the same build does not get to 100% status anymore.

And I have no 90% elemental mod I could swap out. The only mod that I could realistically swap is Shotgun Spazz and trust me, putting in another status mod in place of that will not make TTKs better since the Boars base fire rate was also nerfed and it needs it more than ever. That build got the best TTKs before the nerf and it still gets it now, none of the stats were changed in a way that it would require a radically different build. What worked then works now except it's worse.

It's definitely there. I'm looking at it on page 3, post #52:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/499171-shotgun-buffs-u17-megathread-topic/?p=5589267

 

The entire point of using the BP is for its status chance. Comparing two 100% status chance builds seems a lot more valid to me, given armor scaling is the gunner's primary method of survival. 4x dual stat mods, Primed Point Blank, Blaze, Hell's Chamber, Shotgun Spazz?

[Fruchtpudding]

It's definitely there. I'm looking at it on page 3, post #52:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/499171-shotgun-buffs-u17-megathread-topic/?p=5589267

 

4x dual stat mods, Primed Point Blank, Blaze, Hell's Chamber, Shotgun Spazz?

 

Ah there it is, I was confused by people quoting my later post before the initial post was made. Thread were merged strangely apparently.

 

 

It's definitely there. I'm looking at it on page 3, post #52:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/499171-shotgun-buffs-u17-megathread-topic/?p=5589267

 

4x dual stat mods, Primed Point Blank, Blaze, Hell's Chamber, Shotgun Spazz?

 

I'm using Seeking Fury, punch through is essential so I can only use 3 dual stat mods, I wouldn't want to use 4 dual stat mods anyway, that would ruin my corrosive+heat setup, I sure as hell don't want blast on it. Sacrificing punch through would be a huge loss of real dps compared to what little TTK I would gain on a single target.

Sorry but it's just worse now, you can maybe put a build on it that has better TTK on a single target but you completely loose out on practicality in real situtations. Taking off Seeking Fury would be a bigger nerf to my Boar Prime than what they did.

[aerosoul1337]

Kohm damage is the same.

 

Status is the same.

 

Crit chance and multiple are the same.

 

Effective Range is reduced by 10m. (Fallout start at shorter range)

 

It used to have full damage around 25m, now it falloff at shorter range, this is a huge nerf.

At 20m it deals about 55% damage per pellet now.

Edited August 5, 2015 by aerosoul1337

[aerosoul1337]

So Hek has three times its old damage output.  Awesome.

 

Kohm got no changes other than reduced damage falloff with every Shotgun.  Fair enough.

All in all, this turned out better than expected.

 

Mostly disappointed with those super long reload, some only got minor damage buff.

 

And Kohm is nerfed.

no damage/status buff at all.

fire rate is reduced a bit.

effective range is reduced by 10m, fallout starts at shorter range.

 

Winners:

Hek, Tigris, Drakgoon.

 

Losers:

Kohm, Strun Wraith, Boar prime.

 

Still, non of any shotgun can out perform Atomos (with extension) against enemies crowds below level 60. How sad.

Edited August 5, 2015 by aerosoul1337

[Mxysptlik]

What's your beef with the Phage? What the heck!?!

 

It's not as if it was OP in ANY way before, so why didn't it get ANY love whatsoever?

 

Either give me a reason why it was excluded, or... I dunno, BUFF IT LIKE YOU DID EVERY OTHER SHOTGUN.

 

Jeez

[aerosoul1337]

Shotgun is FUN to play, that's it

Far from op.

 

And some are not even fun to play due to crazy long reload.

And Kohm got direct nerf, damage falloff starts at shorter range without any damage buff.

Edited August 1, 2015 by aerosoul1337

[kajiss1]

The reload speed and status change in boar is painfull, that one was more nerfed than other thing-

Out of that i love the tigiris buff

 

But plese make something with the boar 

[Sea_Wall]

So why where half of the shotguns nerfed in the shotgun "buff" update? 

[XxTacTicBeastxX]

so even the damn normal strun has a higher base damage, then boar P.. well then.. might as well sell the boar since it's worthless now even with all the forma on it. 

[Caernarvon]

Kohm was forgotten it seems.

 

And why didn't the Phage get buffs?

Edited August 1, 2015 by Caernarvon

[(PSN)Snowbluff]

• Increased damage across all shotguns.

So I don't know if this is a bug or you're just a liar, but Kohm wasn't improved damage wise.

[[DE]Momaw]

Well.

 

First of all, I'm not really in favor of the changes to fall off. If anything, shotguns need more punishing falloff, not less.  Why? Because shotguns should be absolutely decisive at short range.  That is the definition of a shotgun and the tactical role it fills. You bring a shotgun because you want to easily win every short range engagement while sacrificing long range potential.  Shotguns should absolutely demolish assault rifles at short range, while being in turn totally out classed at long range. With the changes to make falloff less punishing, that isn't really the case. Now the high-damage shotguns do tens of thousands of damage out to a surprisingly good distance, intruding into the role of assault rifles that are far less ammo efficient and bursty.  You need to see silly-high enemy levels before the new high-damage shotguns stop being useful mid to long range weapons, and that's just not right.

 

 

Specifics...

 

* Drakgoon is fair. The rated damage is for fully charged shots, and if you're doing fully charged shots then it's a slow shotgun to use.

 

* Hek is fair. Less damage than the Drakgoon, but also no charge time or need to lead targets. Plus it has an insane augment that increases its damage a whole bunch.

 

* Tigris damage is too high. Why does this thing do as much damage as an Opticor? And no matter how much damage you give it, it's still painful to use because you'll spend 90% of your time reloading. This should be more in the neighborhood of 600 damage, and bring the reload time down to 1.2 seconds to compensate.

 

* Strun Wraith. No no no no.  Huge fail. You killed the Strun Wraith. It is dead.. The defining feature of the Wraith was the fact that it had a reasonable magazine size with a good reload speed. It was quick and flexible and fluid. Now it's slow, painful, and clumsy!  Now it has the handling of a pump action shotgun and modern "shoot one, load one" tactical doctrine, but it doesn't have the actual damage to back up such a play style so it is totally outclassed by everything else. It still has strong status performance, but status is irrelevant when the enemy is dead, which other shotguns doing 2 to 5 times more damage with better handling will accomplish faster. No.  Either restore it previous fast-reloading magazine and leave it near the bottom of the barrel for damage, or, increase its damage to the level of the Drakgoon and Hek because its practical rate of fire with current mechanics is about 1 shot per second.

 

* Boar Prime. Not, in fact, buffed. DPS went up by 20%, but status chance went down by 25%, and the fact that this could practically reach 100% status chance to erode armor and control crowds is what made it a viable endgame weapon.   Magazine size went up, but because you'd be silly to shoot this weapon empty all the time, actual handling went down because tactical reloads on a partial magazine went up by half a second for no benefit. Not dead like the poor Strun Wraith, but not actually improved either.  Put the reload time back to 2.3 seconds, put the status chance back to 40%.  There is no need to punish the Boar Prime with "balance" when the Kohm utterly destroys it as an automatic shotgun and everything else destroys it on a shot per shot basis.

 

* Sobek. Damage now solid, but the 4 second reload time hasn't gotten any less painful.  Vulkar had a 4 second reload and it got improved when people complained. Supra had a 4 second reload and it got improved when people complained. 4 seconds of reload is just too long for Warframe's pacing.  Reduce to 3 seconds, and take off a little damage per shot if it makes you feel better.

 

* Kohm. No complaints. It didn't actually need any damage buffs because it was leading the pack by a huge margin. Still an absolutely devastating weapon balanced by its poor ammo economy.

[locojuan]

i agree with momaw. i've never been a shotgun fan and i was hopping this buffs would change that. but as it stands i'll stick with what i do like.

what if shell by shell reload is done with alt fire and full reload with the reload key?

[Sloppy_Secundus]

Well.

 

First of all, I'm not really in favor of the changes to fall off. If anything, shotguns need more punishing falloff, not less.  Why? Because shotguns should be absolutely decisive at short range.  That is the definition of a shotgun and the tactical role it fills.

 

Ah you can always tell when someone is a refugee from Team Fortress or Quake.

 

Shotguns are DEVASTATING.

Even at longer ranges.

And should be.

 

So far the only games that have gotten this right are the two Killing Floor titles.

Warframe at least has made a proposed effort to make shotguns really feel powerful.

 

You're right about the Strun Wraith feeling much weaker.

Into the garbage it goes.

Time to make a Tigris.

[Boondorl]

I don't understand how someone could consider the Tigris to be OP but not the Hek.

 

Tigris: 1050 damage/shot, 2 shots

 

Hek: 525 damage/shot, 4 shots

 

That's literally the exact same damage per magazine, and the Hek has a mod that gives it asinine amounts of multishot. The Hek is still better because of that mod, yet people looked at a big scary number and are shouting "OP! OP!!!"

 

The Tigris is still not better than the Hek. Reducing its damage below 1050 will be the final nail in the coffin for it. Chopping off 450 damage just so you can take 0.6 seconds off the reload is not going to balance it. Anyone who did even a basic amount of math could see that these two weapons are clearly balanced to be on par with each other (they're both MR4, after all). Stop asking for nerfs because you see big numbers, actually pay attention to the balance of the game. If you feel shotguns as a whole have too much damage now, say this instead. Don't target certain weapons just because you hate the idea of someone having a weapon that's bigger than yours.

[BluelitHalo]

And Kohm is nerfed.

no damage/status buff at all.

fire rate is reduced a bit.

effective range is reduced, fallout starts at shorter range.

 

Both aren't a huge loss.  The base fire rate has only been reduced by a measly 0.03 shots per second.  If reduced falloff range is true, then it sucks, if you're using the Kohm like a Soma.  If you actually engage in CQC, then lower falloff range doesn't make the weapon any less usable than its spread already does.

[xontix627]

RIP Strun Wraith 2015

*sigh* Seriously, DE, Seriously?!

You forgot the old king of shotguns in your buff parade.

Honestly, reload is clunky as hell and has no where near the damage potential that it even should have.

Even the Sobek outclasses the Strun Wraith now.

*sigh* I'm just mad that one of the shotguns was left to rot.

I see two options on making it viable, first and foremost fixing the reload:

A: Make it and the Strun crit based shotguns, buffing the base damage just a bit and keeping the status chance.

B: Make it deal better base damage, on par with the Hek's base and keep the status.

[DarkVeghetta]

First of all, I'm not really in favor of the changes to fall off. If anything, shotguns need more punishing falloff, not less.  Why? Because shotguns should be absolutely decisive at short range.  That is the definition of a shotgun and the tactical role it fills. You bring a shotgun because you want to easily win every short range engagement while sacrificing long range potential.  Shotguns should absolutely demolish assault rifles at short range, while being in turn totally out classed at long range. With the changes to make falloff less punishing, that isn't really the case. Now the high-damage shotguns do tens of thousands of damage out to a surprisingly good distance, intruding into the role of assault rifles that are far less ammo efficient and bursty.  You need to see silly-high enemy levels before the new high-damage shotguns stop being useful mid to long range weapons, and that's just not right.

 

I'm sorry, but you're simply mistaken as far as the 'tactical role' of a shotgun goes, in real life. Any modern-warfare kinetic weapon has, by necessity, evolved the ability to kill a human from hundreds of meters away. The reason shotguns are perceived as unable to kill at long ranges is due to poorly-written fiction/movies that only consider buckshot. A shotgun can use multiple kinds of ammo, and while buckshot lethality does fall off at medium ranges, slug-based ammo lethality stays pretty much the same up to very long ranges. Even so, what's considered 'medium' range irl is likely more then what most would call 'long' range in Warframe.

 

What I'm saying is that a certain amount of falloff is fine for buckshot-type ammo, but as for the Kohm's ammunition or the other, slug-based ones, those have no business dealing with falloff at the kind of ranges we see in Warframe.

 

That sed, why can't we switch between slug and buckshot ammo types? This can be done irl with most shotguns. One would realistically be affected by the current fall-off mechanic, while the other would not - the ability to switch these on-the-fly would eliminate most problems people have with this one-size-fits-all approach.

 

Regardless, this 'buff' update has huge, glaring issues (others before me have already posted them, in detail) for half the shotguns that exist in WF. Or all of them from what I gather, if you happen to be playing as Nekros. Hopefully the Tenno's voices will be heard.

Edited August 1, 2015 by DarkVeghetta

[ArbitUHM]

Where are people getting that Kohm has increased falloff? And if people are talking about the 0.03 difference in RoF based on the wiki vs what we see in game, the wiki has always rounded up from 3.67 or whatever up to 3.7.

 

Let me also just say, wow, tough crowd. I think the buffs are pretty great for the most part.

 

Strun/Strun Wraith - unfortunately I don't have these so I can't say anything about them.

 

Le Tigre - ditto, looks awesome though.

 

Hek - just a huge buff on what was already one of the strongest shotguns.

 

Sobek - I disagree that 4 seconds makes the weapon unviable. The prebuff version was actually usable in T4s up to 25 minutes or so, then the issue became you needed too many shots to take down heavy units or 2+ shots to take down trash mods. You would blow through the magazine too quickly and spend forever reloading. Post buff, the tight grouping, reduced falloff, and nearly tripled damage make this thing blow through trash mobs and eliminate heavies in one or two shots. Your accuracy and ability to get headshots make a huge difference in how often you need to reload. It plays and feels great, and the new parkour moves do not interrupt reloads, so all in all this one is a huge win for me. Also, this weapon exists, for all you people that are forgetting about it.

 

Boar Prime - This weapon does a pretty good job of pointing out how screwy status chance calcs are for shotguns. AFAICT, <100% chance basically gives a chance for one pellet out of many to proc, which is very meh. 100% chance becomes STATUSPOCALYPSE and every pellet procs. This is extremely arbitrary. Shotgun status chance calcs should be reworked so this sort of "100% or don't bother" situation does not exist. Boar Prime was good basically only because you could achieve 100% status chance with three dual stat mods, so dropping the status chance from 40 to 30% requires you to use all four, which kind of sucks for corrosive builds. There are probably some good ideas on how to rework status for shotguns, but it's too much to get into here. edit: alternatively, just leave the base at 40%. If the Grakata can get ~15 procs a second, why shouldn't the Boar.

 

Drakgoon - huge damage buff so it can compete with bows now? Looks good.

 

Kohm - I had just built this weapon before the update so I can't comment on it, but it maybe was unchanged? Did it not have falloff before? There's a lot of confusion around this weapon I think.

Edited August 1, 2015 by ArbitUHM

[DarkVeghetta]

 If you actually engage in CQC, then lower falloff range doesn't make the weapon any less usable than its spread already does.

 

Bingo. You hit the needle on the head - but not quite in the way you think you did.

Why subject the Kohm -at all- to falloff when it's spread already does the job. As a matter of fact, this is the case for all shotguns - spread should dictate maximum practical engagement range, not some arbitrary 'falloff' mechanic that has no reason to exist at the ranges that we see in Warframe.

[Oishii]

Shotgun buffs seem very strange so far and apparently very little effort was put into them.  The "buffs" range from nerfs to lol lets just increase the numbers by a ton. Also, why was the phage completely ignored? Yeah it was one of the few shotguns before that fell under the ok category, but with all the absurd buffs to others its now falls under the lackluster category. When you buff something you are going to make other things relatively weak.

 

Well I guess the good news the sobek, the first weapon I potato-ed and forma's is going to see some action again. While the previous top shotguns now belong in the acrid pile, which I suppose makes DE more money when there's sudden shifts in weapon power as people have to potato a new one and toss their old forma'd weapon or buy inventory space.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Oishii

[aerosoul1337]

Kohm is completely nerfed.

no damage/status buff at all.

fire rate is reduced a bit.

effective range is reduced, fallout starts at shorter range.

 

Tested at 20~25m, it does less damage per pellet after this "buff" update.

It used to have full damage around 25m, now it falloff at 15m, this is a bloody nerf.

At 20m it deals about 55% damage per pellet now.

Edited August 5, 2015 by aerosoul1337

[aerosoul1337]

Kohm:

Both aren't a huge loss.  The base fire rate has only been reduced by a measly 0.03 shots per second.  If reduced falloff range is true, then it sucks, if you're using the Kohm like a Soma.  If you actually engage in CQC, then lower falloff range doesn't make the weapon any less usable than its spread already does.

 

It used to have full damage around 25m, now it falloff at shorter range (15m), this is a huge nerf.

At 20m it deals about 55% damage per pellet now.

 

 

• Increased damage across all shotguns.

 

It is supposed to be BUFFED.

Edited August 5, 2015 by aerosoul1337