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[DE]Danielle

Shotgun Buffs (U17 Megathread Topic)

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Where are people getting that Kohm has increased falloff? And if people are talking about the 0.03 difference in RoF based on the wiki vs what we see in game, the wiki has always rounded up from 3.67 or whatever up to 3.7.

 

Kohm - I had just built this weapon before the update so I can't comment on it, but it maybe was unchanged? Did it not have falloff before? There's a lot of confusion around this weapon I think.

 

The point is the falloff anyway.

Kohm had the longest effective range (no falloff range), yes, longer than Hek before this "Buff".

It used to have full damage around 20m+, now it falloff at shorter range, this is a huge nerf.

At 20m it deals about 55% damage per pellet now.

 

Kohm, long story...

This weapon's characteristic has been completely changed for 6 times. And yes, it had no falloff in its previous 4 versions.

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oh dear lord, Alt Fire lets me use Tigris Semi-Auto.

it's like a dream come true.

yay, it now does enough Damage to trivialize most of the things you might point it towards. it still feels awkward to use because of the Reload being mediocre despite having a very small Shots before Reload.

more Damage doesn't fix that.

- - - - -

Strun Wraith(and presumably Strun) has Sequential Reloading. this is like a wet dream! and then a nightmare because the Sequential Reloading is horrendously buggy.

Sequential Reloading is also cancelled by doing pretty much anything, while other Weapons can fly around or atleast Sprint and stuff. i need to be able to keep moving around and playing while the Weapon is Reloading. i can't just halt to a dead stop or walking pace while i Reload.

i can avoid some of the Reloading which is what Sequential Reloading is great for. i'm looking forwards to using this once it doesn't break all the time and i can move around while using my Weapon.

Damage is adequate, as it was before, but the disparity between this and some others doesn't make much sense. Sobek is 350.1, Strun Wraith is 250, Strun is 300. hmm.... that doesn't seem right. one with a Drum Magazine and designed for long sustained fire does more Damage than one that's more general purpose with having average Accuracy, a decent RoF, Et Cetera.

basically, Auto Shotgun does more Damage per shot than 'Pump' Shotguns. i'm not really seeing how that makes sense.

would much rather Sobek be 200-210 Damage with a 2.5 Reload.

- - - - -

Sobek still has an awful Reload. see some notes above related to Sobek.

- - - - -

Hek's Muzzle Flash disappears too quickly, or something. the Muzzle Flash feels very wrong.

also very much not a fan of the way the Camera kicks when firing it. i expect it to Kick some ofcourse, but something feels very wrong about it. it's different than it was before, and something doesn't feel right.

perhaps it feels like it's moving up as if it's rolling up on a beach ball, rather than like flipping up on a hinge, which is how Recoiling forces on Firearms are applied since it's on your Shoulder.

- - - - -

Boar Prime's Damage is surprising. would have expected ~200, like what feels appropriate for Sobek.

that's only an 8-9% ish Damage increase for Boar Prime, but still.

this Shotgun also can't Status anymore. so now Strun Wraith is the only Shotgun with Status. i don't like that very much.

- - - - -

Drakgoon... more Damage, like the rest? okay, i suppose.

honestly, Drakgoon was just not popular due to Le Meta. Drakgoon did more Damage than Hek without Augment, and almost as much Damage with Augment.

it's Damage was incredibly competitive, people just ignored it because something else was more publically popular.

other than that, honestly, it already was a very good Weapon. hitting for a lot of Damage on one Target or good Damage versus crowds, innate Punch-Through, Et Cetera.

the Variable Charge helped it a lot to being flexible enough.

Drakgoon isn't slow at all with Shotgun Spazz, so that issue just goes away. same as the popular Bows, the Charge is slow, but add a Speed Mod and it's hunky dory.

if it needed anything, it would have been shaving Reload Speed a bit, slightly better Crits, and more Status.

- - - - -

do the ones with high Damage deal too much Damage? honestly? probably. it allows you to trivialize most Enemies. while against Enemies with big Health Bars, like any Weapon, eventually it won't be enough Damage. and then Shotguns STILL don't bring anything to Combat other than Damage.

and that's why they've been sketchy, not because of Damage (which they did sufficient amounts of), but because they have nothing BUT Damage. (with Boar Prime and Strun Wraith being exceptions to the rule, which made themselves viable because they had something other than raw Damage to offer)

while many other Weapon Archetypes also have plenty of Damage, but can also do everything.

again, Status and Crit bonuses to Enemies that are close to you, and no Damage Falloff at all. Shotguns would have been in a nice place then. you could have still increased Damage some, but you wouldn't need to do much since you'd be getting Crits left and right if Enemies were close to you.

and i still like Ragdoll Chance(with little force applied, just make them flop to the floor) divided across the Pellets, so that you always have something to bring to the table other than Damage. the limited Range due to Accuracy makes knocking things down more and more difficult at Range, but still doable and against large crowds, would Knock down a good number of them. satisfying and effective.

while it works technically, having more Damage than an Opticor, a Sniper Rifle, and starting to compete with Bows if you happen to get Crits - is rather silly, and fairly unnecessary.

oh, and uh, Status is still calculated the same way, so Status isn't viable on all but one Shotgun now (previously was two). yay.......

Shotguns NEED viable Status(that isn't the Formula that's used now, since it's awful). it's level Independant and allows them to always bring a wide range of useful things to Combat, regardless of how fast anyone can Kill anything with Raw Damage.

obviously some Shotguns will and should Status perform better than others, some more focused on Raw Damage while others trading some for incredible Status.

but all of them need it to be viable. in addition to other effects such as Ragdoll Chance. because Shotguns can then compete with other Archetypes of Weapons. being flexible, but not bringing the same Tools to every situation in Combat.

- - - - -

Bronco was not included in these adjustments, despite having always been a poor Weapon. AkBronco was only popular in a bygone era because it had incredible Burst DPS for applying lots of Armor Ignoring Damage.

Bronco Prime is quite acceptable (the single atleast, the dual... no comment), but Bronco is worthless.

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the reason boar prime got a tiny buff if at all is its already overpowered and DE would fear that would be the only used weapon. I think boar prime doesn't even need a buff and also sobek is usable without seeking fury, just slap a bunch of fire rate and damage mods and its usable (keep the tactical pump though). so, from my standing point, boar prime is fine

There's a video on YT testing the "buffed" Boar Prime which clearly shows that the reduction in status chance completely wrecks the weapon. Raw damage can't compete with procs when dealing with super beefy targets. So the "buff" made it worse.

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Here is my thorough feedback:

 

OVERALL CHANGES:

* Very mixed feelings. Some of them got good changes, some got WAY too strong, while some got nerfed.

* Generally, the damage-increases are WAY over the top. Hek, in particular, is absolutely absurd right now. That wasn't a necessary change.

* Ragdoll is fun!

* Falloff reduction seems good now. Not too weak, not too strong (well, if it weren't for the overbuffed basevalues)

 

Let's go to specific weapons (my suggestions are in bold):

 

Strun / Strun Wraith / MK-1 Strun

* Damage is really odd. Wraith is 250, Regular is 300 and MK-1 is 180. Staying at 250 seems good for Wraith, nerf it to 220 for Regular and keep it at 180 for MK-1.

* I like the idea behind the new reloadmechanic (sequential reloading), but I hate its restrictions and numbers:

*** It should be able to reload while sprinting

*** The reload should be interruptable by shooting with the weapon

*** Reloadspeed per shell should be 0,35 sec for MK-1 / Regular, while Wraith could be 0,25 sec (That would be, for base mag refills: 2,1 secs and 2,0 secs respectively)

 

Tigris

* 1050 damage... is just absurd (that's stronger than the OPTICOR...). 400 would be fine.

* Would be more interesting it if had really high critchance (say, 50% critchance or even more?) so we actually have a critshotgun.

* Innate punchthrough (even if just 0,5 meters PT) would really help its shortcomings against crowds.

* Likewise, reducing the reloadspeed to about 1 sec would help it more than the insane damagebuff.

 

Hek

* 575 damage is even MORE absurd on this weapon, due to its augment (that mod alone gives a 3x booster...). Nerf the augment to 100% multishot (down from 200%) and then lower Hek to 300 damage and I think the damage would be more balanced.

* Reloadspeed down to 1,75 sec or so, and it would be great.

 

Drakgoon

* The damage here is ALSO over the top. 900 charge-damage? 400 chargedamage seems more appropriate.

* Crit, but even more so, status, could also need a boost. Numbers unspecified.

 

Boar / Boar Prime

* 176 and 184 damage respectively seems like a reasonable boost, along with the bigger mag and slightly slower RoF on both.

* Reloadnerfs were COMPLETELY unnecessary though. 2,3 secs was good enough. 2,8 and 3,0 are too long.

* Lowered status on Boar Prime was completely unnecessary though. Back to 40% status please?

 

Sobek

* A bit crazy damageboost here. 350 damage? 200 damage would've been fine.

* Could've been increased to 3,5 RoF or so, to make sure it is at least slightly faster than the Strun (being automatic and all)

* Reloadspeed of 4 sec is way too slow. 2,6 sec or so seems better.

 

Phage and Kohm, these were already great, so I didn't see the need for any big changes (damagewise) in these weapons. (Maybe slightly better ammo-economy on Kohm would've been nice though)

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The numbers seem off.

 

The strun wraith and the sobek have identical reload speeds and fire rate, but the sobek has a 20 shell magazine, and the strun wraith, 8. The sobek has much higher damage (350 vs 250), but much lower status chance (15% vs 40%).

 

This means that the sobek outclasses the strun wraith in every stat except status, which can be somewhat fixed with shattered justice. There is no reason to use the strun wraith over the sobek.

 

Changes that should be made:
Swap their damage values. Strun wraith should deal 350, while sobek deals 250.

Sobek needs a higher rate of fire. An automatic shotgun should not shoot as slow as a semi auto. +60% would be great.

Both reload speeds need tweaking. 4 seconds of reload in the middle of a firefight is pretty detrimental. 3 seconds on both weapons is acceptable.

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So the good shotguns got nerfed and the toxic waste Tigris is now a poor mans Hek,

 

Well trolled good sir.

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-snip-

Even at mid range, you rarely being able to hit a target with all those pellet, so the pratical damage on single target is way lower than that.

 

Also, Opticor is still better than Tigris, Tigris has 50 more damage but with fall-off.

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Even at mid range, you rarely being able to hit a target with all those pellet, so the pratical damage on single target is way lower than that.

 

Also, Opticor is still better than Tigris, Tigris has 50 more damage but with fall-off.

You usually hit with MOST of the pellets though (Hek and Tigris moreso, they are quite accurate)

 

Opticor has a ~3 second charge time, Tigris can shoot 2 shots near instantly (that is 2x the damage without chargetime...) so it only needs to take its reload into account in comparison. And the falloff is quite gentle now.

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I would like to see a compleet list of changes, that present any detail.

 

Strun Wraith:

 

- the reload change is bad, while it might work at lower levels with the other strun variants it is a status shotgun and you do magdump after magdump at high levels and it is just a plain reload speed and overall utility nerf, with the long reload and the given low fire rate it was allready not the best option for status, now it is even worse

 

Boar Prime:

 

It is was my most used weapon, 7 forma, maxed primed point blank, blind rage Ember fully build around to give it incredible punch and I did a lot of solo def/survial with it. With the "buff" it is just plain worse then it was before. It doesn't work on Ember anymore with the status chance change, having blast instead of fire is a considerable worse CC option compared to fire, because you can't do headshots on stuff laying on the ground.

 

- the bigger magazine is of little use since you reload after every small group or target anyway

- fire rate and reload speed nerfs reduce the use as status weapon quite a bit

- of all shotguns, it is the one that has gained next to nothing from the falloff changes(because the spread is to high beyond 20 meters to do reasonable single target dps), dps gains are not noticeable at high levels by the rof nerf and the status nerf did cost it far more power then the tiniy bit of theoretic dps it can gain with the changes.

 

Overall with the "buff", I stoped useing it. It doesn't do status good anymore, it never did dps good(outside of the use with a blind rage Ember, and without 100% status and pure fire damage on it, it is now plain useless on the frame), it is now even worse at burst dps. It was a good status shotgun for high levels, now it is just rather meh dps shotgun, that is ammo inefficent, with incredible big spread and bad range with nothing to it that would make it good.

 

I am still confused how DE could made a shotgun "buff" that manages to put massive nerfs on any shotgun that could be considered useful before the change. I can snipe with by strun wraith now and kill something at over 20 meters single shot at low levels with it(beside every weapon can do this just better with higher rof and quicker reload speed). Awesome, but status shotguns are only good at high levels where this is still no dps at all compared to the guy next to you with a soma prime and the changes only made the ability to come ahead with status very unlikely(strun wraith) or plain impossible(boar prime). You basically took away what made them ok, at least at high levels, before the "buff" and replaced it with something absolute useless for status shotguns at high levels.

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Bingo. You hit the needle on the head - but not quite in the way you think you did.

Why subject the Kohm -at all- to falloff when it's spread already does the job. As a matter of fact, this is the case for all shotguns - spread should dictate maximum practical engagement range, not some arbitrary 'falloff' mechanic that has no reason to exist at the ranges that we see in Warframe.

Of course, removing falloff would be more ideal. I'm just saying that the way it is now, it doesn't exactly kill the Kohm. I've mained this weapon since the day it was given its first tweak, and it's still as good of a meat-grinder as it was pre-U17.

I still find it odd as to how the Boar Prime could be given such weird tweaks. Maybe DE looked at usage statistics and saw that it was the most used shotgun or something, so they didn't give it as much love as the rest of the shotguns. Also, they had noble intentions in trying to make the Strun series reload per shell, but that's better off being saved for an actual pump-action shotgun. The Strun was designed to be clip-fed, and it should stay that way.

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Bingo. You hit the needle on the head - but not quite in the way you think you did.

Why subject the Kohm -at all- to falloff when it's spread already does the job. As a matter of fact, this is the case for all shotguns - spread should dictate maximum practical engagement range, not some arbitrary 'falloff' mechanic that has no reason to exist at the ranges that we see in Warframe.

 

Spread + "falloff" = Double penalty.

 

And why subject the kohm?

Because they said: all damage up, falloff down to all shotguns -> it's a lie.

Kohm doesn't even have base damage increased, and effective range is reduced actually.

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Well, the buffs are mostly wellcome, but its a mixed bag due to the new mechanic of the strun series and the boar prime usability nerf. Im still hoping that the tigris gets the per-shell reload and bring it down to 1-1.2 sec reload and te strun wraith gets its reload down to at least 3 secs, better if its 2-2.4

 

Edit: why didnt the secondary shotguns/handcanons got any love? and im still hopping to get my confety cannon back( old khom)

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Spread + "Damage falloff" = Double penalty.

And why subject the kohm?

Because they said: all damage up, falloff down to all shotguns -> It's a lie.

Kohm doesn't even have base damage increased, and effective range is reduced actually.

Because... reasons? I am beginning to honestly think that DE makes most of these changes in an hour long meeting where they just shout out whatever random number or mechanic/change pops into their heads. This is all taken down by an intern. They (DE) leave. Then all of the changes they were rambling about get implemented.

This at least explains how they could have left some of the most basic S#&$ not working right or having ridiculous damage - breeze right on through to release.

My favorite is the bullet jump that the release notes say INCREASES your movement speed. When (depending on your frame/setup) it actually DECREASES it. It would have taken TEN MEASLY SECONDS of testing to figure this out. That's how long it took everyone else. Or maybe a minute or two to load up a Hek with their new Power Creep 2.0, and see its re-god-dam-diculous.

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You usually hit with MOST of the pellets though (Hek and Tigris moreso, they are quite accurate)

Exactly, they now work more like a Sniper/Bow as they are too accurate. Instead of damage nerf, it would be better to increase the spread.

TBH, I'd like them to stay as it is, I like the Sniper-Shotgun concept. Practically, they suffer the same penalty of the Sniper.

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2ptqa8l.jpg

 

Damage wise from least to greatest between Boar Prime, Strun Wraith and Regular Strun (Not MK1)

 

Boar Prime< Strun Wraith < Strun

 

Something isn't right here. If this is truely the case then that mean the boar prime (which took 10 orokin cells to build) and the strun wraith (a prize for an event and tactical alert) aren't so great...at least not anymore. Anyone would be better off getting a regular strun. But pretty sure strun wraith was more devastating damage wise compared to the strun (regular). 

 

Edit: And also, Something like the boar prime which takes 10 orokin cells to build shouldn't be worse than a shotgun you can buy with credits. Its horrible to see a prime weapon you gotta earn from completing multiple void mission and build with 10 orokin cells be overshadowed by a Non prime weapon that can be purchased with credits completely built.

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Kohm got no damage increase.

 

For whatever reason, Boar Prime's status chance was reduced.

 

Phage not being included in the damage buffs makes no sense.

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Kohm got no damage increase.

 

For whatever reason, Boar Prime's status chance was reduced.

 

Phage not being included in the damage buffs makes no sense.

 

my assumption as far as the phage goes is it's A: already quite powerful and B: not a traditional shotgun

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*snip, forgot to do that*

Agreed with most of this stuff, but I would like to note that the Kohm actually got nerfed...

 

Honestly, a few things I want to add:

 

Have an actual crit line of shotguns. Strun Wraith was that, once. Maybe the Struns could be the crit shotties again? Also potentially a bit more crit chance on Phage.

 

Revert Kohm to particles. Optimized ones. We have the physics reworks; I don't think it would be as framerate-shattering, not by a huge margin. Honestly, it was just fine with its late U15 stats - projectile, no falloff, lower RoF.

 

I don't think the reload-per-shell should be on the Strun... but it should be on at least one shotgun. Maybe swap it with the Hek/Sobek. Boar is a bad fit, too. I mean, the drum shotguns get per-shell reloads, and the ones without drums get full mag reloads? That looks like an oversight.

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Agreed with most of this stuff, but I would like to note that the Kohm actually got nerfed...

 

Revert Kohm to particles. Optimized ones. We have the physics reworks; I don't think it would be as framerate-shattering, not by a huge margin. Honestly, it was just fine with its late U15 stats - projectile, no falloff, lower RoF.

 

Even if they don't want to make Kohm's projectile particles again.

They can just remove its falloff, it has huge spread at full spool already, why double the penalty?

And it needs spool up and ammo mutation to work, why so much nerfs keep coming... Jesus...

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