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[Shade] Players Are Exploiting Cloak


Lumireaver
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I've been playing a lot of Mobile Defense lately, and players appear to be exploiting Cloak in order to go AFK, leaving everyone else to clean up the mess while they just stand there... presumably drinking coffee and eating delicious ham and cheese sandwiches. I can't think of any solutions at the moment, but I imagine reworking the particular ability is in order.

 

In other Sentinel-related feedback, I would vastly appreciate it if I couldn't see other player's Dethcube targeting lasers. Four Dethcubes floating around make their own rave party.

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Well anyone could go afk, really. Just stay in spawn. There's really no difference. You just have to deal with it sometimes. Hopefully DE makes an anti-AFK system. However, there really is nothing wrong with the cloak ability. Blame the people, not the game.

Edited by Ecksplisit
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While I understand your concerns, I too agree that there isn't anything outright wrong with cloak. I am unsure of what would work best for punishing players going AFK, especially since the solution should only affect multiplayer games.

 

Your post made me laugh though. I now want one of these ham and cheese sandwiches, and would like an invite to the dethcube rave...

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Well anyone could go afk, really. Just stay in spawn. There's really no difference. You just have to deal with it sometimes. Hopefully DE makes an anti-AFK system. However, there really is nothing wrong with the clock ability. Blame the people, not the game.

 

Clock enables the toxic behavior without the penalties of missing out on drops or completely halting mission progress as ordinary AFKing would. The game could stand to be tweaked a little bit to make it harder for the people to scam the system so easily.

 

 

While I understand your concerns, I too agree that there isn't anything outright wrong with cloak. I am unsure of what would work best for punishing players going AFK, especially since the solution should only affect multiplayer games.

 

Your post made me laugh though. I now want one of these ham and cheese sandwiches, and would like an invite to the dethcube rave...

 

 

 

I've always thought that Sentinel skills really ought to be player-activated. That, alongside some other tweaks (Giving Cloak a set duration, giving Sentinels their own energy-pool, or some other anti-skill-spam mechanic... ect),  would remedy this problem, but I don't think it's what the dev team wants. It's too huge a change, and even being in beta, I think the big changes aren't exactly what DE is looking for from the community.

 

Keeping things inline with current mechanics, Shade is designed to help with stealth game play, and his (its?) skill ought to facilitate that. That can much be said beyond a shadow of a doubt. The quickest fix to the problem of players hiding indefinitely is making the skill not-indefinitely-long. Some people might feel this is severely handicapping, especially if they built their Shade for the express purpose of obtaining super-not-being-seen-skills. So... yeah. Not sure if it's the best idea to just nerf it. I mean the community gets rolling when the nerf hammer rears its head.

 

As an addendum to my original post, I would like to suggest that only Dethcube users ought to be able see other Dethcube targeting lasers, and that every Dethcube have a kaleidoscope of different colored lasers. 

Edited by Lumireaver
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This rhetoric.... smh

OP.... how about coming up with something that achieves what you would like to see without penalizing legitimate players?

Running with a group of people you know is guaranteed to give you the experience you want.

Running with a pug on the other hand is a roll of the dice.

Acknowledging the fact that it's a roll of dice and not every player you randomly end up in a squad with is going to be well mannered and courteous should be the first thing you need to do.

Once you acknowledge that fact, you'll realize that you have a choice and you chose the potentially less-than-desirable experience. DE can't protect you from all the nasty bad folks out there, but it has given options for you to protect yourself, such as a contact list for friends, the private / solo setting, and clans.

There is a good suggestion in there somewhere, but this isn't it.

Regards.

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Clock enables the toxic behavior without the penalties of missing out on drops or completely halting mission progress as ordinary AFKing would. The game could stand to be tweaked a little bit to make it harder for the people to scam the system so easily.

 

What would you change about cloak?  A timer?  How to indicate the time remaining?  Do you have to exert explicit control over your shade?  Or does it pulse on and off at it's own discretion, and you just have to roll with it?  

 

I'd rather fix the bigger problem of AFKs.  Even non-shade players do it frequently on mobile defense by climbing to obscure parts of the map and sitting there for 10 minutes.  And Xini seems to have the regular AFKers, too...  Though I usually just let the cryopod die when I see it.

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This rhetoric.... smh

OP.... how about coming up with something that achieves what you would like to see without penalizing legitimate players?

Running with a group of people you know is guaranteed to give you the experience you want.

Running with a pug on the other hand is a roll of the dice.

Acknowledging the fact that it's a roll of dice and not every player you randomly end up in a squad with is going to be well mannered and courteous should be the first thing you need to do.

Once you acknowledge that fact, you'll realize that you have a choice and you chose the potentially less-than-desirable experience. DE can't protect you from all the nasty bad folks out there, but it has given options for you to protect yourself, such as a contact list for friends, the private / solo setting, and clans.

There is a good suggestion in there somewhere, but this isn't it.

Regards.

 

Quit being counterproductive. Does DE want a game where players can behave like this? If/when they have the time and resources to address nonfatal bugs and glitches, don't you think they're going to want to patch out all the nasty ways people can break their game? The rails are there for your protection. Please respect.

 

 

What would you change about cloak?  A timer?  How to indicate the time remaining?  Do you have to exert explicit control over your shade?  Or does it pulse on and off at it's own discretion, and you just have to roll with it?  

 

I'd rather fix the bigger problem of AFKs.  Even non-shade players do it frequently on mobile defense by climbing to obscure parts of the map and sitting there for 10 minutes.  And Xini seems to have the regular AFKers, too...  Though I usually just let the cryopod die when I see it.

 
I would try a lot of things, but I'm not busy trying to get the rest of the game running while producing lots of content... assuming I was as absurdly technologically competent and could program for DE in the first place. ...Ahem, I digress. I don't have an ideal solution right now, but a timer would seem to be the simplest possible fix. You could give a it cool down and make some light shine on Shade when its ready to be deployed. 
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Clock enables the toxic behavior without the penalties of missing out on drops or completely halting mission progress as ordinary AFKing would. The game could stand to be tweaked a little bit to make it harder for the people to scam the system so easily.

 

 

 

 

 

I've always thought that Sentinel skills really ought to be player-activated. That, alongside some other tweaks (Giving Cloak a set duration, giving Sentinels their own energy-pool, or some other anti-skill-spam mechanic... ect),  would remedy this problem, but I don't think it's what the dev team wants. It's too huge a change, and even being in beta, I think the big changes aren't exactly what DE is looking for from the community.

 

Keeping things inline with current mechanics, Shade is designed to help with stealth game play, and his (its?) skill ought to facilitate that. That can much be said beyond a shadow of a doubt. The quickest fix to the problem of players hiding indefinitely is making the skill not-indefinitely-long. Some people might feel this is severely handicapping, especially if they built their Shade for the express purpose of obtaining super-not-being-seen-skills. So... yeah. Not sure if it's the best idea to just nerf it. I mean the community gets rolling when the nerf hammer rears its head.

 

As an addendum to my original post, I would like to suggest that only Dethcube users ought to be able see other Dethcube targeting lasers, and that every Dethcube have a kaleidoscope of different colored lasers. 

AFK Auto kick feature or a feature to punish those that do nothing. Need to start there and not with drastic changes to an ability.

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I am unsure of what would work best for punishing players going AFK, especially since the solution should only affect multiplayer games.

How about a system that simply drops you from the server if you are idle for 2 minutes?

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Clock enables the toxic behavior without the penalties of missing out on drops or completely halting mission progress as ordinary AFKing would. The game could stand to be tweaked a little bit to make it harder for the people to scam the system so easily.

 

 

 

 

 

I've always thought that Sentinel skills really ought to be player-activated. That, alongside some other tweaks (Giving Cloak a set duration, giving Sentinels their own energy-pool, or some other anti-skill-spam mechanic... ect),  would remedy this problem, but I don't think it's what the dev team wants. It's too huge a change, and even being in beta, I think the big changes aren't exactly what DE is looking for from the community.

 

Keeping things inline with current mechanics, Shade is designed to help with stealth game play, and his (its?) skill ought to facilitate that. That can much be said beyond a shadow of a doubt. The quickest fix to the problem of players hiding indefinitely is making the skill not-indefinitely-long. Some people might feel this is severely handicapping, especially if they built their Shade for the express purpose of obtaining super-not-being-seen-skills. So... yeah. Not sure if it's the best idea to just nerf it. I mean the community gets rolling when the nerf hammer rears its head.

 

As an addendum to my original post, I would like to suggest that only Dethcube users ought to be able see other Dethcube targeting lasers, and that every Dethcube have a kaleidoscope of different colored lasers. 

 

I'd like to repeat again, even if cloak is nerfed (which is shouldn't because there's nothing inherently wrong with it), people can still just AFK by going to out of reach places. Therefore the problem is not with cloak, but rather the AFK-ers. Right now what you're asking for is akin to saying, hey  my friend was murdered by a man with a knife, so we should make all knives dull to reduce murder rates.

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Quit being counterproductive. Does DE want a game where players can behave like this? If/when they have the time and resources to address nonfatal bugs and glitches, don't you think they're going to want to patch out all the nasty ways people can break their game? The rails are there for your protection. Please respect.

 

 

 
I would try a lot of things, but I'm not busy trying to get the rest of the game running while producing lots of content... assuming I was as absurdly technologically competent and could program for DE in the first place. ...Ahem, I digress. I don't have an ideal solution right now, but a timer would seem to be the simplest possible fix. You could give a it cool down and make some light shine on Shade when its ready to be deployed. 

 

You know, there are real world examples where this rhetoric is being used. One of them is the gun control debate.

Make no mistake, the one being counter-productive here is you. Your issue starts and ends with your personal responsibility, something that you would see other players penalized for due to your refusal to excercise it. As other posters have said, there are other ways besides shade's ghost ability that players can and have used and are actually a lot less risky. Changing the ghost ability will provide no solution to this issue.

There is a line between preventing this sort of situation and hindering the gameplay experience of players. There is a point where DE can no longer control your experience, but you can. The expectation that you excercise that control goes without saying.

Your suggestion about the ghost ability being changed would penalize legitimate players and provide no solution to your initial issue.

You would have DE babysit the experience for you and produce the same experience you would have had had you used the options available to you right now.

I suggest you set your ego aside and read what I've posted with a calm and open mind. What I've posted really leaves no room for argument. 2+2=4.

Edit: You do not need to be technologically competent to make a flow-chart.

Edited by Jeraggerjack
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I'd like to repeat again, even if cloak is nerfed (which is shouldn't because there's nothing inherently wrong with it), people can still just AFK by going to out of reach places. Therefore the problem is not with cloak, but rather the AFK-ers. Right now what you're asking for is akin to saying, hey  my friend was murdered by a man with a knife, so we should make all knives dull to reduce murder rates.

 

There's an argument about the degree of accessibility to exploitative behavior to be made here. People abusing Ghost literally need only to stand there while others do all the work for them. This is likely not something DE intended for Shade to be used for, and therefore something that ought to be brought to their attention. I'll abstain from drawing obtuse similes for the sake of keeping the topic focused on the game.

 

Oh goody goody goody lets nerf Shade and cloak DEs!!! (SARCASM INTENDED)

 

You are the paragon of quality feedback.

 

You know, there are real world examples where this rhetoric is being used. One of them is the gun control debate.

Make no mistake, the one being counter-productive here is you. Your issue starts and ends with your personal responsibility, something that you would see other players penalized for due to your refusal to excercise it. As other posters have said, there are other ways besides shade's ghost ability that players can and have used and are actually a lot less risky. Changing the ghost ability will provide no solution to this issue.

There is a line between preventing this sort of situation and hindering the gameplay experience of players. There is a point where DE can no longer control your experience, but you can. The expectation that you excercise that control goes without saying.

Your suggestion about the ghost ability being changed would penalize legitimate players and provide no solution to your initial issue.

You would have DE babysit the experience for you and produce the same experience you would have had had you used the options available to you right now.

I suggest you set your ego aside and read what I've posted with a calm and open mind. What I've posted really leaves no room for argument. 2+2=4.

Edit: You do not need to be technologically competent to make a flow-chart.

 

Whoa there, don't say another word! Let's not bring that crazy, politically charged, ongoing NRA fiasco into this. Everyone knows that Warframes don't kill people, people kill people

 

This isn't about hand holding, babysitting or anything like that. This is about people using some features on a Sentinel in a beta in a way they weren't likely designed to be used—in a way that can detrimentally affect the experience for others. It's very easy to break the game in this way, and therefore it's probably something worth taking a look at after all of those other nasties are cleared up. If we set our egos aside we might be able to devise a clever way of taking care this issue without taking away the whole super-not-being-seen-skills from those people who might feel entitled to it.

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There's an argument about the degree of accessibility to exploitative behavior to be made here. People abusing Ghost literally need only to stand there while others do all the work for them. This is likely not something DE intended for Shade to be used for, and therefore something that ought to be brought to their attention. I'll abstain from drawing obtuse similes for the sake of keeping the topic focused on the game.

 

 

You are the paragon of quality feedback.

 

 

Whoa there, don't say another word! Let's not bring that crazy, politically charged, ongoing NRA fiasco into this. Everyone knows that Warframes don't kill people, people kill people

 

This isn't about hand holding, babysitting or anything like that. This is about people using some features on a Sentinel in a beta in a way they weren't likely designed to be used—in a way that can detrimentally affect the experience for others. It's very easy to break the game in this way, and therefore it's probably something worth taking a look at after all of those other nasties are cleared up. If we set our egos aside we might be able to devise a clever way of taking care this issue without taking away the whole super-not-being-seen-skills from those people who might feel entitled to it.

 

Yet you want to break the core function and use of said sentinel to "remove" from the game something that technically isn't even the sentinel's fault.  It's the player using the sentinel.  Break the sentinel, and guess what? Million bucks says you pug and there's some guy back on the crates without a Shade AFK. 

 

You really have to look at how the Shade functions in situations it's meant to before calling for some kind of nerf.  It does what they want it to, and it does it well.  The point of it is to offer stealth game play so you can scout and attempt to eliminate patrols etc.  If you put a timer on it or a CD etc you better get your scouting done fast and hope you see the paths of the patrols right quick else you're SOL.

 

Please stop holding DE and game design accountable for your bad gaming experience with other PLAYERS.

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Yet you want to break the core function and use of said sentinel to "remove" from the game something that technically isn't even the sentinel's fault.  It's the player using the sentinel.  Break the sentinel, and guess what? Million bucks says you pug and there's some guy back on the crates without a Shade AFK. 

 

You really have to look at how the Shade functions in situations it's meant to before calling for some kind of nerf.  It does what they want it to, and it does it well.  The point of it is to offer stealth game play so you can scout and attempt to eliminate patrols etc.  If you put a timer on it or a CD etc you better get your scouting done fast and hope you see the paths of the patrols right quick else you're SOL.

 

Please stop holding DE and game design accountable for your bad gaming experience with other PLAYERS.

 

Yeah, right, let's just continue to attribute incredibly malicious intentions and motivations to the creation of this thread. It's all a bitter conspiracy to thwart Shade born from a sick sense of vengeance and/or justice.

 

I've been over that. I can't offer what I feel would be an ideal solution. The only solution I've come up with thus far involves taking the whole "indefinite" aspect away from Ghost so that people can't just leave. If that (the forever-invisibility) were done away with, well...you'd better get your scouting done fast and hope you see the paths of the patrols right quick or else you're that thing you just said. Sounds like a challenge.

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Someone said it earlier but apparently the OP ignored it. Simply add a votekick feature or a afk-timer, simple as that. You don't have to touch the obviously NOT BROKEN shade and it fixes the problem with THE SELFISH players. Not sure what the OP has against shade's cloak but he clearly has some agenda against it considering this was a pretty simple solution.

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Someone said it earlier but apparently the OP ignored it. Simply add a votekick feature or a afk-timer, simple as that. You don't have to touch the obviously NOT BROKEN shade and it fixes the problem with THE SELFISH players. Not sure what the OP has against shade's cloak but he clearly has some agenda against it considering this was a pretty simple solution.

Shade as a whole is a unique topic, first I'd like to say I personally stopped using him because I play Trinity, Frost, Rhino and other tanky frames. Shade on a warframe that lacks that potential tankyness can lead to an instance where he may be saved by cloak. But when Rhino is walking around with a shade and the less defensive frame like Nyx doesn't. Now Rhino who is supposed to tank will de-agro everything and Nyx will get pummeled. As to AFKers removing Shades indefinite cloak won't help, most AFK players do enjoy wedging themselves on top of shelves, crates, hard to reach areas though I do agree Shade needs some reworking since 90% of people seem to only pick Shade (could just be my expierences).

Jeeze guys, show some friendship and love! This topic just seems so angry.

 

Maybe perhaps remove shades damage focus more on his Sanctuary, stealth aspects. perhaps cloak will activate the same way and only last 15 seconds. I dunno, I am not to good with Sentinel design.

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Someone said it earlier but apparently the OP ignored it. Simply add a votekick feature or a afk-timer, simple as that. You don't have to touch the obviously NOT BROKEN shade and it fixes the problem with THE SELFISH players. Not sure what the OP has against shade's cloak but he clearly has some agenda against it considering this was a pretty simple solution.

 

Or I somehow missed those three consecutive posts because I was busy constructing an arguement with those other guys, but really this goes back to that thing about attributing intentions, ect, ect... Anyway, my apologies, XDeathCoreX, Fiia, and Law_Abiding_Engineer. A vote/idlekick would be kind of useful for handling certain situations, but it doesn't completely remedy the problem according to my agenda in my opinion.

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You know...I use my Shade to go AFK so that I won't be a problem for other people, when I'm playing with my squad of friends. They appreciate it. Because if I were to die in the middle of a mission, and come back---they'd likely have to revive me, or I'd have to leave the game and hope it lets me come back. (This is of course because we don't like wasting revives. We might need them for more important matters later.)

 

I dunno what kind of trouble you're having with Shades and Players using them, because you certainly aren't trying to fix the AFK issue, but you need to deal with it.  You also need to deal with the fact that there are things far more important going on in the world than your defense missions--and while yes the likelihood of every single instance of someone going AFK being an emergency is low the possibility is still there.

 

Here's a perfect fix, its a perfect fix because it completely relies on you and whom you associate with :

 

Don't do 'important' missions in public parties. Do them with your clan mates, do them with your friends. If you don't have a clan, or friends---get some. The only way this plan doesn't work, is if you don't have good friends---which can be fixed, and if you don't have a good guild. 

 

If you don't wanna do any of that, that's when it becomes your problem. Not the entire game's player base.

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AFK Auto kick feature or a feature to punish those that do nothing. Need to start there and not with drastic changes to an ability.

 

Exactly, and if they aren't contributing they really aren't being incredibly rewarded. They gain no real exp nor credits nor mods. I think that's a punishment enough. If standing still accomplishes nothing, nothing is to be gained. It's only one match as well. Players can leave them to their afk state after the match. The issue isn't with the cloaking mechanic of the sentinel. It's not only stealth gameplay where it comes in handy, Reviving and breaching become safe with the cloaking mechanic.

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You're never going to outwit people who want to be asses by messing up the experience for everyone who did nothing wrong.

 

I can think of three ways off the top of my head to circumvent an autokick feature. A manual kick feature would maybe be useful in certain circumstances as there are so many bugs in the game that keep you from finishing missions and such. There would need to be a limit on how many times a day you can do it, otherwise people will be asses using this as well.

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