This Is Not The Type Of Feedback You Are Looking For After All Your Work With U8 - Welcome To Warfarmers

[A5PECT]

On one hand - complaining about farming in a dungeon crawler is kind of silly. The entire game is by design a grind.

 

On the other hand - more/better bosses and gametype variations (possibly game types that actually require cooperation such as each member of the party needing to access different locations simultaneously and such) would go a long way to making replaying fun.

 

This is a much smaller team building this than some giant EA title, you might want to adjust your expectations for content releases accordingly.

 

I understand DE is a relatively small developer. But right now it seems like they're trapped in a bit of a vicious cycle.

 

They have a lot of core content and mechanics in Warframe that need review and balancing. So they need money to continue working on those elements. To get more money, they release new content. The new content brings them money, but at the same time creates more things for them to rework. So now they need money. Again.

[Irikyo]

I don't except from new players to understand those who played the closed beta version (including me). The game was tested by us and we told people and friends to come join us to this new like experience and the coclusion of all this.... DE trying to throw closed beta testers out of the game indirectly because the only thing we wanted is to be this game an awesome one and continue his road brilliantly and instead Warframe will gain popularity so the new players like you, who find the update awesome, take advantage of you without realizing it and oh.....we are the bad guys now....i'm sooo sorry, you're right....this game is awesome....it doesn't matter that i played it earlier... you are so right 'new fishes'. I was complaining to my friend about doing a reset to my account and that i can't find rare mods instead of complaining on the forums and you know what...i don't care if they want money because everybody says 'they need money'... eternal beta forever....

Edited May 24, 2013 by Irikyo

[Bennyworld]

WOW, you're cynical - look on the bright side - you can help out your clan and get new weapons!

[ra9una]

I can't really disagree, the game is a little farm heavy but without that the content would be consumed far too quickly for the devs to produce more.

[EchoLG]

I can't really disagree, the game is a little farm heavy but without that the content would be consumed far too quickly for the devs to produce more.

Or maybe if the gameplay was a bit more interesting people would be busy playing the game cause of the amazing gameplay and not to farm and feel accomplished by that and that only cause the game offers no challenge what so ever and is boring as hell after all the farming that's already been done.

The OP is right, he's not being unfair, he praised the work the devs put into this, but the game is devolving into a massive farm fest more and more as the time passes and that's horribly boring, ESPECIALLY for small groups of players that till now didn't realy have to bother with larger clans to even afford to see more than a 1/6 of this god forsaken update, lots of S#&$ that require either platinum or a horrible ammount of time to be farmed were added and nothing to make the actuall gameplay more interesting and engaging, bad game design right there.

Edited May 24, 2013 by EchoLG

[Emotitron]

I understand DE is a relatively small developer. But right now it seems like they're trapped in a bit of a vicious cycle.

 

They have a lot of core content and mechanics in Warframe that need review and balancing. So they need money to continue working on those elements. To get more money, they release new content. The new content brings them money, but at the same time creates more things for them to rework. So now they need money. Again.

 

I agree there, it is why I /facepalm about all of the constant groaning about balancing. If DE spends time on an endstate vision (so that everything they do fits into a long-term plan and they don't paint themselves into a corner) and creating content content content... most other stuff will work itself out.

[Emotitron]

Or maybe if the gameplay was a bit more interesting people would be busy playing the game cause of the amazing gameplay and not to farm and feel accomplished by that and that only cause the game offers no challenge what so ever and is boring as hell after all the farming that's already been done.

The OP is right, he's not being unfair, he praised the work the devs put into this, but the game is devolving into a massive farm fest more and more as the time passes and that's horribly boring, ESPECIALLY for small groups of players that till now didn't realy have to bother with larger clans to even afford to see more than a 1/6 of this god forsaken update, lots of S#&$ that require either platinum or a horrible ammount of time to be farmed were added and nothing to make the actuall gameplay more interesting and engaging, bad game design right there.

 

This is why my hope for the game is that they keep down the path of user-generated content and create something of a TPS version of DnD where users create the dungeons using tools provided by the DE. Moving away from the planet map and fixed number of missions to open-ended content generation tools could spawn a long-term and loyal community.

Easy to type that idea, much harder for a small team to make it happen WHILE trying to keep the current core of players entertained in the meantime though. This is the curse of open-beta. Once you open it up and start taking money, you have invited the vampires into your home and they will consume you.

[EchoLG]

This is why my hope for the game is that they keep down the path of user-generated content and create something of a TPS version of DnD where users create the dungeons using tools provided by the DE. Moving away from the planet map and fixed number of missions to open-ended content generation tools could spawn a long-term and loyal community.

Easy to type that idea, much harder for a small team to make it happen WHILE trying to keep the current core of players entertained in the meantime though. This is the curse of open-beta. Once you open it up and start taking money, you have invited the vampires into your home and they will consume you.

Or just say f*** it and just tunr this game into Warframe-ville already so we can click on little plastid and nano-spore patches and claim them after little infested (and cute) Chargers have worked to make their infested babies grow. It will be fun (and cute).

Edited May 24, 2013 by EchoLG

[KhanCipher]

I can't really disagree, the game is a little farm heavy but without that the content would be consumed far too quickly for the devs to produce more.

 

is it really a good thing when a game is borderline abusing it just for the sake of people not consuming the cake too quickly?

[Emotitron]

is it really a good thing when a game is borderline abusing it just for the sake of people not consuming the cake too quickly?

 

It is never a good thing. Any game that finds a way to disguise the farming effectively and make it look like content will be rewarded with large sums of money.

[Sophax]

You guys are not seeing the point here. The point is that DE wants to make money realy bad apperantly.  They're forcing us to either farm until we go insane or to spend money on rediculously overpriced items.

 

Infact its DE that is farming us ( our money) while we our farming meaningless items in a video game. Wake up people.

[Drusus]

Aeren:

While I do not agree with everything you state, I certainly think there is a worthwhile vein in your analysis.

Areas I would highlight as points of agreement or worthy of immediate address:

Supply chain on critical resources.

I have a post on this line of thinking already, and I truly believe we're simply 'between implementation points' on this one. They've already state aspects of the supply are simply not working as intended if some of the forum scuttlebutt is to be believed on the drop issues mentioned, but I strongly feel that having resource payouts as ? rewards in alerts would go a very long way to making both alerts more worthwhile and engaging and significantly reducing the farm factor, making it more dynamic response as opposed to 'kill Tyl Regor...again'

RNG is just so...Random... in its application

Boss encounters stand out as a point where the RNG needs some love to shape the end result, and it is not the only point where this RNG shaping should get some attention; you rightfully point out that an uncommon mod 10+ tiers deep in a defense is out of synch with the effort required. These are areas that can be addressed cleanly and with some, I would think, pretty low investment of effort at that to resolve. Having said this, I'm sure we both agree that careful aapplication of any increases here is warranted. I doubt either of us would complain about baby steps to nudge this up to a better balance point rather than just tip the scales in opposite direction.

Resource consumption requirements spike

I think you rightfully identify a major uptick here but I have to assert same as I did before, that this to me looks like the A step in an A, B and C progression of implementation. I may very well be wrong here, and if so, I concede your frustrations are totally warranted. However, I would suggest to you that if I'm correct, the shift in resource acquisition and allocation will go a long way towards correcting your discontent as these secondary pieces are onlined. On this one, let's both hope I'm right? :)

Forma doesn't bother me as a unique resource, nor do any of the new 'blue can' rares. My only concern is the ratio of seed to consumption requirement. I would rather they start heavy here and trim down to a better balance level as we've seen what happens in the community when it starts too easy and then is increased. This is just the better approach.

As I said, I may not agree with your whole posture here and am perhaps more optimistic, but I thought you presented a worthwhile point of view mate and wanted to give it its due.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Drusus

[Spriggs]

I'm going to link this thread to DERebecca, as it seems like this is a very important thing to be looked into.

[BoompigXD]

I'm going to link this thread to DERebecca, as it seems like this is a very important thing to be looked into.

ITS THREAD LOCK TIME

[Aerensiniac]

ITS THREAD LOCK TIME

Okay that made me lol

[TickTockMan]

All I know is DEsteve said, "endgame is all I think about"

 

I'm sure DE is hard at work coming up with fun and engaging content to put all of our super charged max prestiged weapons and warframes to use on down the road. 

 

It's still a beta, DE doesn't pretend the game is finished. We can still have fun with the current game while we wait for the actual finished product. We've got a pile of new content, new methods of farming, and this new implementation of large scale parties (meaning content scaled for larger groups is readily possible). DEsteve also mentioned raids being possible future content. I'm pretty satisfied with it.

 

As soon as people realize there is nothing in this update that is "pay to win" I think they'll realize there is a lot more to do, a lot more to work for, and in the end there will be larger scale goals to keep us busy.

 

I feel like I'm rambling so I'll leave it at that.

Edited May 24, 2013 by TickTockMan

[MyXmaN]

As much as I hate to say it, the developers of Warframe took the easiest and most profitable path possible. I mean with the FARM-FARM-FARM gameplay. Not blaming them in any way.

 

Still Warframe would be a lot more awesome if they made a different decision.

Okay, i wont mention pvp, but...

But new mission types? a lot were suggested, like gauntlet mode, survival mode, etc. So many interesting suggestions... dead and buried.

 

I was really looking forward to seeing new locations, new mission types, maybe even vehicles. Maybe, some time in future - even pvp.

Instead we are getting the FARM to FARM some more.

Yeah, it is profitable for DE. But IMO, at this rate, warframe will be dead and forgotten within a year.

 

Dont get me wrong, i love this game.

At some point, i even thought it was THE game i always wanted to play, but now im beginning to seriously doubt it: the update that ive been waiting for so long presented really nothing interesting or thrilling.

[SymphNo9]

How does this post only have +8 so far?

 

This is what the game needs, even if half of this was put into the game it would go a long long way

Despite how much I agree with the reply, problem is, time. Ideas is one thing, realizing them is another.

Also, can we stop regard the game as an mmo please? 4 people on mission is not "massive multiplayer online". At best with U8, it is lobby based.

[Aerensiniac]

While I do not agree with everything you state, I certainly think there is a worthwhile vein in your analysis.

 

 

 

Alright, i will just take this chance to resolve a few misunderstandings.

A lot of the people in this thread think that i am against farming, rng and resource distribution.

The problem is, that this is not the case.

 

Its a bit hard to specify the issue directly, since its not a single issue i can point at, but rather a mass of problems.

I will try to show the problem with the example (even though its an rpg) of world of warcraft.

You see WoW in terms of farming is a hundred times worse game than Warframe cause in WoW you have tier equipment which lasts for X months before releasing the new set with higher stats, which will basically make your current items completely obsolete.

So unlike with warframe in which you can use a Lex from 2 months ago till kingdom come, in wow, you will be throwing away stuff after a period of time, since it becomes completely obsolete.

 

That being said, WoW feels a hundred million times less of a farm fest than warframe.

Why is that so?

Mainly cause in world of warcraft, the objective is not the goal, but the journey that leads up to it.

Getting that tier equipment is really the cherry on the top of the cake, but the cake itself is the getting there.

 

You will be crafting, collecting recipes, trading, socializing, gathering achievements, interacting with lore, planning, fine tuning, gearing, theorizing with gear enchants, gemming, skill builds, boss mechanics, boss battles, communicating, making a team, scripting, modding, team working, doing 5 man parties, 10 man parties, 20 man parties, 40 man parties, sharing and loot distributing because only 1 item drops.... You wont have time to think about it.

You will be sitting in front of your monitor and

 

If i were to take over warframe's problems to WoW, then it would look like the following:

You wind up alone at the end game raid boss, run through the map without killing anything, win, get nothing, then repeat this sequence till the object of your desire drops, then you go and grind mats for it for 6 weeks, craft it for 3 days, then equip it, feel good about it for 5 minutes and then cancel your account cause you have nothing to do for the next 6 months except looking good in the item set you have no effort soloed together from the hardest game content available.

 

Its a mess.

Farming is not the problem here.

The problem is that (and i literally cant put this in any other way, shape or form) there is nothing except farming.

Literally.

No content playwise.

No team play, no difficulty, no reward scaling, no bosses, no challenges, no nothing that would make you play an actual game.

Instead you have enemies that act like grass acts towards the lawn mower, and mow dat S#&$ with nothing in between, till it drops something you want, and god forbid its a mod you want cause then you are done. It can drop from everywhere and anything at the almost same chance with skill mod polluted drop tables.

 

Its like taking out all raids and all instances from World of warcraft and let everything drop from everything at the same ~rng~ chance.

Level 1 mobs will drop the same **** level 90 mobs do, so there is no point to anything. You do not need to do bosses, you do not need to do raid, you do not need to do anything.

Then for additional lulz, we add the fact that every item in the entire game drops like this, so your chance of obtaining a particular item is always 0.00000000000000000000000001% wherever you go and whatever you do, making it even impossible to farm, cause instead of farming you will be stuck in an endless nightmare of repeating the same process without anything to take your mind off of it.

 

So its pretty much like warframe's endless defense and mobile defense.

Those two missions are the thing you will be repeating till you get a tumor from warframe and uninstall it to hell before signing into the nearest hospital.

 

So spelling it out: Farming is not the issue. Rng is not the issue.

The issue is:

- Pushing your ENTIRE loot table into rng which then gives you a chance measured in 68 decimals to obtain something specific.

- Having no loot scaling with difficulty, making you completely indifferent towards where you are and what you are doing.

- Having boss tier drops such as blueprints drop with rng from a boss that dies from two clips in the face, spending 99.8% of your "farming time" with running to or from the boss room, having no team work, no boss fight, no nothing in the process.

- Having 0 team work or ANY content that would force you to do team work, leaving 3 other players on your solo map just for the lulz of it cause you are perfectly able to one shot enemies or nuke an entire room at the touch of a single button

- 0 stopping power for enemies even at higher levels making you able to slash dash through the entire map

 

And its 2 in the morning so i think i have reached my limit at coherent thinking.

 

For possible solutions refer to:

 

End game or at least a bit of depth to the game?

Lets see...

- Levels that require you to have a bit of thinking instead of just rushing through (by whatever means, including mazes, climbing hazards, movement challenges)

- Actual boss fights that require either team work (due to difficulty) or brains (with non direct damage kills and/or shooting specific parts/combination of parts), instead of just shooting at the direction of the boss which will either one shot you, or look in your direction with a tear in its eye.

- Raids that require more than 4 players

- Loot scaling with difficulty increase so there is at least SOME merit to the fact that im killing stuff in a level 50+ mission.

- At least SOME fixed drops instead of painting rng onto EVERYTHING (primary example: wave 75 for an uncommon hellfire mod. well ****ing done)

- Maps with a difficulty that require roles and/or team tactics (instead of having 4 solo players with 0 communication on one map mowing down everything without even taking damage to health)

- Synergy and frame ability combos i.e. mag's bullet attractor and excalibur's radial javelin.

- Lore/collectibles

- Achievements and effort related skins/colors/items/whatever

- Missions that are on par with your maxed/oc gear (in clear text: Hardcore content for those who have already hit the level cap)

- Clan related missions/events

- Some form of competitive mode between clans

- etc

 

If i were to focus only on the question of "end game", then my answer can be summarized in 3 major points:

1. There is no team play nor any form of content that would require you to do so

2. Bosses are worthless and difficulty/reward scaling is completely broken and/or nonexistent

3. Lack of non RNG related items - whether its achievements, fixed drops, fixed wave loot or whatever, having only rng burns your players out

 

Its hard to compare warframe to other MMOs on the market, but there are also generic elements which hold true never the less, such as difficulty, team play, and reason/goal to work towards. Having no difficulty scaling/generally 0 challenge in the game destroys the first and second while rng destroys the third. Its also worth to mention that while RNG will keep your players busy for a lot longer than fixed or higher percentage drops, it will also burn them out a hundred times quicker since they will be doing the same thing over and over again for no form of reward or success. This problem ofc multiplies when its matched up with the fact that difficulty is nonexistent and you can run across maps without firing a single shot.

 

And thats all about i can say in regards of this entire topic.

My issue was never that you have to do farming and bear with rng to some extent.

My issue is that there is nothing else, and thats not rhetorically speaking. No. There is LITERALLY nothing.

The entire loot table is pushed into the ****in rng and then diluted further with useless skill mods, while farming is no effort at any given time, poses no challenge, no change, no nothing. There is no team work, no communication, no socializing, no planning, no tuning, no theorizing, no synergy, no roles, no classes, no team objectives, nothing matters, screw your choices, go and repeatedly kill the same useless and defenseless pedestrian of a boss for 89 times till our holy lord of rng script decides to bless you with a bp, yet it wont matter at all by that time cause you grew brain cancer after the 6th day of farming.

 

Duh... rant rant rant... I think i have presented my case more than understandable enough.

If thats not the case, then write me down cause this is all i can manage. Im sorry.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[MyXmaN]

Despite how much I agree with the reply, problem is, time. Ideas is one thing, realizing them is another.

Also, can we stop regard the game as an mmo please? 4 people on mission is not "massive multiplayer online". At best with U8, it is lobby based.

 

We cannot. As of the last update.

It WAS a coop game for small groups of people. Its not what it IS now.

 

BEFORE the U8 i was able to enjoy the game with my friends.

NOW we all get that weird feeling we have to either PAY a lot or FARM like crazy to get the new content. No, not speaking about the void keys, got a couple of them today.

 

Im talking about dojo.

 

There are only 4 people in-game at all times. But i MUST be a part of a HUGE clan to be able to enjoy the research, the dojo and everything else.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to reap the benefits of dojo and enjoy them if you are not in a huge clan.

 

But there is absolutely no need to be in one gameplay-wise! Only 4 people in-game! Not 10, not 20, not 800!

 

Now i dont mind paying some cash. But really, if i dont want to be in a huge clan, im being punished for that by having to buy a load of formas AND farm 24/7 for resources.

Edited May 24, 2013 by MyXmaN

[Onite]

What's an RPG that allows for 200+ hours of playtime, is multiplayer, and isn't accomplishing that by farming?

Mount And Blade

 

Dead Rising 1 & 2

 

Lost planet 2

 

Nation Red

 

Borderlands

 

Brink

 

Dead Island

 

Ragnarok Odyssey

 

Metal Gear Solid: Peacewalker

[Aerensiniac]

Edited and elaborated: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/49998-this-is-not-the-type-of-feedback-you-are-looking-for-after-all-your-work-with-u8-welcome-to-warfarmers/page-4#entry521954

[EchoLG]

We cannot. As of the last update.

It WAS a coop game for small groups of people. Its not what it IS now.

 

BEFORE the U8 i was able to enjoy the game with my friends.

NOW we all get that weird feeling we have to either PAY a lot or FARM like crazy to get the new content. No, not speaking about the void keys, got a couple of them today.

 

Im talking about dojo.

 

There are only 4 people in-game at all times. But i MUST be a part of a HUGE clan to be able to enjoy the research, the dojo and everything else.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to reap the benefits of dojo and enjoy them if you are not in a huge clan.

 

But there is absolutely no need to be in one gameplay-wise! Only 4 people in-game! Not 10, not 20, not 800!

 

Now i dont mind paying some cash. But really, if i dont want to be in a huge clan, im being punished for that by having to buy a load of formas AND farm 24/7 for resources.

Well said.

This is the first time in my life I actually feel genuinaly disappointed. Probably cause I haven't beta tested many games from closed beta, but yes, I'm realy, realy disapointed. Probably doesn't matter to anyone of couse, but deep inside it burns me that this update was nothing of what I assumed it would be, the content while being a lot, is almost all locked behind alerts, RNG based key drops and massive resource requirements which me and my 2 other friends won't be reaching easily at all. What used to be a game you could enjoy with your close friends is now a job that forces you to join a mega corp clan in order to benefit from the research on dojos and get the energy weapons that everyone has been asking for and what about the explosives?

It's realy sad that they chose to go with this, I assumed that dojo's would just be a place to hang out and built for leisure and dueling, but no, they had to lock content behind it and force people into clans and for what reason exactly? What good has ever come out of forcing others do stuff they don't like in order to get content? and why should I trust the clan leader with my hard earned resources? Who tells me I won't just be kicked out right after?

[fishworshipper]

I think one big reason why these super-awesome-mega-hard-loot-dungeons aren't being added isn't that DE can't add them, but that adding them will completely alienate anyone without a mic and 3 good gamer friends with mics, as well as any soloists.

[MoonicusMaximus]

This is the first time in my life I actually feel genuinaly disappointed.

 

Man, you are in for a treat, let me tell you.

Edited May 25, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus