This Is Not The Type Of Feedback You Are Looking For After All Your Work With U8 - Welcome To Warfarmers

[-ErebusGaming-]

I agree and disagree with the OP, He's got a point but there's also the fact that thing's have to be as hard to get other's you'd really quit playing this game,

Not to say that there can't be more stuff added to make the game more fun, but mark my words, if you added actual pvp, this game would surely DIE.

 

[Aerensiniac]

I agree and disagree with the OP, He's got a point but there's also the fact that thing's have to be as hard to get other's you'd really quit playing this game,

Not to say that there can't be more stuff added to make the game more fun, but mark my words, if you added actual pvp, this game would surely DIE.

How did pvp end up here?

[Pandemia]

OP is 100% right. With both your opening post and pretty much every other one, especially the possible solutions in a sense. 

 

End game or at least a bit of depth to the game?
Lets see...

- Levels that require you to have a bit of thinking instead of just rushing through (by whatever means, including mazes, climbing hazards, movement challenges)

- Actual boss fights that require either team work (due to difficulty) or brains (with non direct damage kills and/or shooting specific parts/combination of parts), instead of just shooting at the direction of the boss which will either one shot you, or look in your direction with a tear in its eye.

- Raids that require more than 4 players

- Loot scaling with difficulty increase so there is at least SOME merit to the fact that im killing stuff in a level 50+ mission.

- At least SOME fixed drops instead of painting rng onto EVERYTHING (primary example: wave 75 for an uncommon hellfire mod. well ****ing done)

- Maps with a difficulty that require roles and/or team tactics (instead of having 4 solo players with 0 communication on one map mowing down everything without even taking damage to health)

- Synergy and frame ability combos i.e. mag's bullet attractor and excalibur's radial javelin.

- Lore/collectibles

- Achievements and effort related skins/colors/items/whatever

- Missions that are on par with your maxed/oc gear (in clear text: Hardcore content for those who have already hit the level cap)

- Clan related missions/events

- Some form of competitive mode between clans

- etc

 

If i were to focus only on the question of "end game", then my answer can be summarized in 3 major points:

1. There is no team play nor any form of content that would require you to do so

2. Bosses are worthless and difficulty/reward scaling is completely broken and/or nonexistent

3. Lack of non RNG related items - whether its achievements, fixed drops, fixed wave loot or whatever, having only rng burns your players out

 

Its hard to compare warframe to other MMOs on the market, but there are also generic elements which hold true never the less, such as difficulty, team play, and reason/goal to work towards. Having no difficulty scaling/generally 0 challenge in the game destroys the first and second while rng destroys the third. Its also worth to mention that while RNG will keep your players busy for a lot longer than fixed or higher percentage drops, it will also burn them out a hundred times quicker since they will be doing the same thing over and over again for no form of reward or success. This problem ofc multiplies when its matched up with the fact that difficulty is nonexistent and you can run across maps without firing a single shot.

 

 

Also agree with MyXmaN. The Dojo pretty much punishes the single player or small groups of friends who would rather not be in a giant clan. Who will be grinding and spending out the a$$ to be able to complete a dojo. 

 

On top of that, the way it was implemented basically says "get as many people as you can in one clan, no matter what". The more people you have the quicker you can complete a dojo. So not only does it punish the soloer/small groups, but it doesn't really put any quality into clans or clan play. Everyone would be better off if they all joined the same clan and had thousands of players complete a dojo in a day. 

Don't get me wrong, the dojo/base building idea is excellent. Just implemented poorly. 

Edited May 25, 2013 by Pandemia

[Aerensiniac]

OP is 100% right. With both your opening post and pretty much every other one, especially the possible solutions in a sense. 

 

Also agree with MyXmaN. The Dojo pretty much punishes the single player or small groups of friends who would rather not be in a giant clan. Who will be grinding and spending out the a$$ to be able to complete a dojo. 

 

On top of that, the way it was implemented basically says "get as many people as you can in one clan, no matter what". The more people you have the quicker you can complete a dojo. So not only does it punish the soloer/small groups, but it doesn't really put any quality into clans or clan play. Everyone would be better off if they all joined the same clan and had thousands of players complete a dojo in a day. 

Don't get me wrong, the dojo/base building idea is excellent. Just implemented poorly. 

Agreed. Im playing with the idea how comical U8 became. They implemented a truck load of things, and your average player wont see as much as 10% of it because literally everything is money or farm restricted. "The biggest update yet" working as a stealth patch.

Well... no matter how i look at this, on one side i feel bad for DE cause they did work hard on this. Its especially painful since the dev team is fairly social so you do see faces and the fact that they try.

On the other hand... im pretty much angry because there are just too many bad choices. Like frost prime.

 

Do you recall the frost prime event? I loved it with all its details, like the % based image that cleared as we progressed.

Then we ended up at a conclusion that we got a farmable BP.

NOW it turns out that we pretty much didnt get **** cause we have to in fact PAY (or farm at a beyond ridiculous rate) in order to get a CHANCE at obtaining PARTS of it.

This pull is so hard that it literally makes me giggle like a basket of rotten apples.

 

Its like giving away cars for free without a chassis, a motor and tires. Then take money to participate in a lottery where you have a chance at obtaining the missing parts for your car. Ofc nothing is guaranteed so its entirely possible that you will end up with 6 motors or 8 sets of tires before getting one car's worth of items.

I have expected more out of DE on many levels, and not just in terms of turning an idea into practice, but also at running a business model.

This type of thinking reminds me on the butt holes of the industry, such as EA, Microsoft and Activision/blizzard.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Aerensiniac]

Hahaha I read post #81 after posting mine, cursed, tried to delete what I wrote so I could go read what the idea on fixes are THEN post, and got caught anyway. Props.

 

AFTER reading that I say that those ideas do not work unless you're using an open world, MMO style game. The biggest complaint I've seen in MMOs is "I love the game but once I get to 'X' I can't solo it anymore. And I hate you all so I don't want to team up." Having things that are ONLY achievable through PvP or through teamplay makes people upset. Warframe is supposed to be a game with AT MAX 4 people running something at the same time. Other games that are 3rd person shooter are never random generated map type games. They're very linear.

 

To all the games that have CONSTANT updates with new content and new dungeons and new achievements... They're all PTP.... Not FTP.... Next, we're in Beta..... final vision for the game isn't only what we see now.

 

P.S. I realize the Guild Hall system makes the 4 person max argument invalid due to the AMOUNT of STUFF required to make it but that just came out so lets see where that goes. I figure that'll be question #1 on Tuesday.

Oh and congratulations on the 100th post.

Now we will need someone for the 100th +1

[slicshuter]

I didn't realize DE promised an end to farming with U8. I don't see a current problem with farming for new things; it's that way for a lot of other games.

 

Would you care to offer a suggestion as to what an alternative endgame for Warframe should be?

 I have seen SO many mission suggestions in this forum that the devs have never picked up on. People are constantly handing out new ideas for new mission types and styles instead of the regular missions we get. There isn't a problem with the endgame, but it the longer we are kept busy, the better. New gamemodes can keep the game interesting, but currently I barely play because I have all my favourite warframes and weapons. I'm just waiting for some new gamemode, not a dojo.

 

Here are some ideas I came up with just now:

-Mobile defense on vehicles

-Vehicle orientated missions e.g. Some sort of train and having to move from train to train.

-Missions that take place ON a planet. not the same ship or a mining facility. I want to see the surface.

-Free running orientated missions, there's not much use for free running at the moment, and the mechanic has a lot of potential.

[Pandemia]

 I have seen SO many mission suggestions in this forum that the devs have never picked up on. People are constantly handing out new ideas for new mission types and styles instead of the regular missions we get. There isn't a problem with the endgame, but it the longer we are kept busy, the better. New gamemodes can keep the game interesting, but currently I barely play because I have all my favourite warframes and weapons. I'm just waiting for some new gamemode, not a dojo.

 

Here are some ideas I came up with just now:

-Mobile defense on vehicles

-Vehicle orientated missions e.g. Some sort of train and having to move from train to train.

-Missions that take place ON a planet. not the same ship or a mining facility. I want to see the surface.

-Free running orientated missions, there's not much use for free running at the moment, and the mechanic has a lot of potential.

I think those are all nice ideas.

However, before they start just trying to add more missions types, personally I'd like to see better team play and more difficult missions. As it stands I sprint through every mission when I solo. In a group, pretty much the same just with some added killing, as everyone rambos through the entire place. Kind of like Guild Wars 2 because they removed the trinity (DPS/Tank/Healer). Half the time you get into a dungeon everyone is rolling dps and just rambos around. 

Better team play is attained by having a need for it. Difficult maps / bosses provide that need, along with needing strategy and tactics. 

Edited May 25, 2013 by Pandemia

[RookZero]

None of that alleviates your main problem and point to this thread, which is farming. You're asking for an increase in challenging content, which is fine, but attacking farming from this perspective doesnt help your case much. If your woes are actually the farm itself, stick with suggesting alternate ways rather than asking for new content and then being dissatisfied with it because it centers around a common MMO time-extending tactic.

 

Nobody is hatng on farming.  The issue is THAT IS ALL THIS GAME HAS.  OP listed off all the changes that a growing population

 

of warframe players want.  We need farming yes...but we also need challenge and rewards equvilent to the challenge. 

Edited May 25, 2013 by RookZero

[Guest]

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if Steve meant it when he said "I don't want Warframe to be about grinding" during the livestream, because the game just got a hell of a more grindy.

 

[Kaian-a-coel]

Fully agreeing with everything. We need more varied gameplay, less randomness and more thinking. Planning. Teamplay.

I only play with my friends or solo, because the rare times I play online with random people (because the mission is difficult and my friends aren't there), I spend the whole time running through the level, snatching what I can from the sh*t lying on the floor, swearing and hoping that I will make it in time to the end room because the two high-level a**holes blazed through the whole thing without a thought for the guys who are doing the level for the first time.

I want levels where we need to cooperate. Really. Not "wait here my understuffed friend, while I effortlessly slaughter those ennemies.", but more "quick! activate the mechanism to drown this giant grineer mecha in molten metal while we make sure he doesn't repair itself! And you, stop the repair bots from coming too close!" or something like that.

Farming is fine, but it needs to be fun. It needs to be "I need xxx. I can this mission, this one, or maybe this one. Let's pick this one, because I like it.", and not "Let's kill this guy again and again and again."

Also plot.

[SFkenny]

I was half expecting Tenno style American Gothic with the OP's picture.

But to more pressing concerns outlined in the rants.

WOW =/= Warframe. WOW is a game that's all about numbers. At least in Warframe I can aim my guns. The rank and the enemy armor values will influence how much damage I do, but I won't be standing in point blank range firing into the enemy and getting "MISS."

Oh wait, that HAS happened to me. Enemies that are too close to target with the over the shoulder view can basically be under my crosshair and I'll hit nothing but air. UGH. Anyway.

The Dojo mechanics need work. The costs need to come down for smaller clans. Harder content should be added, sure, but that's only a stopgap solution. Having some kind of story content beyond "Corpus have hit this area with flamethrower bots, Tenno. Go kick their asses" would be great.

Remember that Grineer boss that's the head researcher trying to figure out how to repair the Grineer genome and restore genetic diversity to his people? That's where I'd start with a story arc. Let's say there's a big research team under him in an as-of-yet undiscovered Orokin fold-space, and they have actually made some new prototype Grineer variations. Grineer with better tactics, employing sniper teams to engage Tenno at extremely long range on some new outdoor tiles (think of Corpus Outpost's bigger outdoor sections on steroids, to properly leverage the Snipetron and other long range weapons). Yes, there are snipers in the base game, but more often than not they're cannon fodder because there aren't enough long ranges to properly utilize them. Perhaps the Grineer even have made new powered armor or vehicles that actually move. Some kind of weapon to rival Jackal and Hyena. And perhaps they might have found some information about the Technocyte plague.

A space pirate faction would also present some interesting new map possibilities, as well as complications for the lore and collective quests. The lion's share of our concerns about this game are being listened to and actively worked on at Digital Extremes. They've done a great job of listening to us, despite how shrill our voices can often get.

Just remember, as grindy as this game gets, and as often the SNAFUs with regards to platinum expenditure balance happen, it's not as bad as the Xbox One. :)

[SetAbominae]

 I have seen SO many mission suggestions in this forum that the devs have never picked up on. People are constantly handing out new ideas for new mission types and styles instead of the regular missions we get. There isn't a problem with the endgame, but it the longer we are kept busy, the better. New gamemodes can keep the game interesting, but currently I barely play because I have all my favourite warframes and weapons. I'm just waiting for some new gamemode, not a dojo.

 

Here are some ideas I came up with just now:

-Mobile defense on vehicles

-Vehicle orientated missions e.g. Some sort of train and having to move from train to train.

-Missions that take place ON a planet. not the same ship or a mining facility. I want to see the surface.

-Free running orientated missions, there's not much use for free running at the moment, and the mechanic has a lot of potential.

 

These ideas need to happen, especially the first two.

[Ronindream]

Fully agreeing with everything. We need more varied gameplay, less randomness and more thinking. Planning. Teamplay.

I only play with my friends or solo, because the rare times I play online with random people (because the mission is difficult and my friends aren't there), I spend the whole time running through the level, snatching what I can from the sh*t lying on the floor, swearing and hoping that I will make it in time to the end room because the two high-level a**holes blazed through the whole thing without a thought for the guys who are doing the level for the first time.

I want levels where we need to cooperate. Really. Not "wait here my understuffed friend, while I effortlessly slaughter those ennemies.", but more "quick! activate the mechanism to drown this giant grineer mecha in molten metal while we make sure he doesn't repair itself! And you, stop the repair bots from coming too close!" or something like that.

Farming is fine, but it needs to be fun. It needs to be "I need xxx. I can this mission, this one, or maybe this one. Let's pick this one, because I like it.", and not "Let's kill this guy again and again and again."

Also plot.

 

Taken directly from the G4-B3 Heavy Fabricator fight in SWTOR. 8P Not a bad thing, either. I agree that there could be battles like this but that would require breaking frames into specified roles and that seems to be something DE has been trying to avoid like the plague. I've never used the Rhino but he seemed to be the best tank in the game and now the only tanky type is Frost's bubble (That I've seen).

 

Plot would be perfectly fine but then the issue becomes writing actual story. I think the matchmaking and chat systems should be the next big fix after U8 has its bugs worked out. This would solve rusher griefing. Make a matchmaking system with different rooms in a sense of a "Story Mode" where Lotus talks a lot more, there are a lot more objectives, different cutscene type things. This would add the ability to introduce a lot more lore and even Easter Egg material.

 

Then there could be a mode called "Speed Run" where you get tiered loot for the faster you run through it. You could play with this idea and make there be a lot of different wallrun requirements or even the traps from the Void can be used to slow players.

 

Then the final mode, that everyone wants, "Challenge Mode" where you play through pretty much what we have going now but the levels are set in tiers beforehand with specific loot tables for clearing it. Also introduce doors that can only be unlocked with a "key" that drops off a mini-boss type mob to stop rushers from just running to the end.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Ronindream

[Thypari2013]

I also don't know what I amf arming for...

 

I am farming for the farming's sake -.-

[destroyyouall]

I also don't know what I amf arming for...

 

I am farming for the farming's sake -.-

 

LOL, totally describes how I feel.

[GroundWalker]

I'm really not the right person to talk on this topic, since I enjoy playing the game because of its core mechanics (I could through a mission without gaining any xp, credits or materials, on my own and still enjoy it), but if you simply think of everything as how it'll change up the farming, you'll see everything as something that has to do with farming.  If they did add something that should have nothing to do with farming, lets say a single mission out of something like Jedi Knight.  A basic level to get through with some enemies, some puzzles you need to solve to get through it.  At the end you get a reward, as well as you might pick up some rewards throughout the level.  This would take a long time to create.  ...and you could still find that it has something to do with farming!  Either A) The drops are higher than everything else, leading you to do it over and over and over again and after the first 2-3 times it's no longer any fun.   B) The drops are average, you might do it once in a while, but all that dev time just faded behind the easiness of the already existing stuff.  or C) Drops are lower than everywhere else, you do it once, maybe twice, then it's simply not worth your time. You have something to farm for.

 

I personally never farm in games.  I do whatever I feel like doing in the game. It might not be 100% efficient, or even 50%, but I enjoy doing it. If I so happen to get whatever I need for some item or whatever, great! Recently I've been doing Grineer Galley and Orokin Tower missions, because I enjoy having new terrain to master.  During that I picked up the stuff needed for the Reaper Prime.  Awesome!

 

tl;dr  Just like every other game, it's a game.  If you try to find ways to make it less enjoyable for yourself, you will find those ways.

 

edit: I do agree with most of the points you bring forward, I just feel like you're blowing it way out of proportion and that a lot of it comes down to a mind set.

Edited May 26, 2013 by GroundWalker

[Raijinmeister]

 

 

 

Alright, i will just take this chance to resolve a few misunderstandings.

A lot of the people in this thread think that i am against farming, rng and resource distribution.

The problem is, that this is not the case.

 

Its a bit hard to specify the issue directly, since its not a single issue i can point at, but rather a mass of problems.

I will try to show the problem with the example (even though its an rpg) of world of warcraft.

You see WoW in terms of farming is a hundred times worse game than Warframe cause in WoW you have tier equipment which lasts for X months before releasing the new set with higher stats, which will basically make your current items completely obsolete.

So unlike with warframe in which you can use a Lex from 2 months ago till kingdom come, in wow, you will be throwing away stuff after a period of time, since it becomes completely obsolete.

 

That being said, WoW feels a hundred million times less of a farm fest than warframe.

Why is that so?

Mainly cause in world of warcraft, the objective is not the goal, but the journey that leads up to it.

Getting that tier equipment is really the cherry on the top of the cake, but the cake itself is the getting there.

 

You will be crafting, collecting recipes, trading, socializing, gathering achievements, interacting with lore, planning, fine tuning, gearing, theorizing with gear enchants, gemming, skill builds, boss mechanics, boss battles, communicating, making a team, scripting, modding, team working, doing 5 man parties, 10 man parties, 20 man parties, 40 man parties, sharing and loot distributing because only 1 item drops.... You wont have time to think about it.

You will be sitting in front of your monitor and

 

If i were to take over warframe's problems to WoW, then it would look like the following:

You wind up alone at the end game raid boss, run through the map without killing anything, win, get nothing, then repeat this sequence till the object of your desire drops, then you go and grind mats for it for 6 weeks, craft it for 3 days, then equip it, feel good about it for 5 minutes and then cancel your account cause you have nothing to do for the next 6 months except looking good in the item set you have no effort soloed together from the hardest game content available.

 

Its a mess.

Farming is not the problem here.

The problem is that (and i literally cant put this in any other way, shape or form) there is nothing except farming.

Literally.

No content playwise.

No team play, no difficulty, no reward scaling, no bosses, no challenges, no nothing that would make you play an actual game.

Instead you have enemies that act like grass acts towards the lawn mower, and mow dat S#&$ with nothing in between, till it drops something you want, and god forbid its a mod you want cause then you are done. It can drop from everywhere and anything at the almost same chance with skill mod polluted drop tables.

 

Its like taking out all raids and all instances from World of warcraft and let everything drop from everything at the same ~rng~ chance.

Level 1 mobs will drop the same **** level 90 mobs do, so there is no point to anything. You do not need to do bosses, you do not need to do raid, you do not need to do anything.

Then for additional lulz, we add the fact that every item in the entire game drops like this, so your chance of obtaining a particular item is always 0.00000000000000000000000001% wherever you go and whatever you do, making it even impossible to farm, cause instead of farming you will be stuck in an endless nightmare of repeating the same process without anything to take your mind off of it.

 

So its pretty much like warframe's endless defense and mobile defense.

Those two missions are the thing you will be repeating till you get a tumor from warframe and uninstall it to hell before signing into the nearest hospital.

 

So spelling it out: Farming is not the issue. Rng is not the issue.

The issue is:

- Pushing your ENTIRE loot table into rng which then gives you a chance measured in 68 decimals to obtain something specific.

- Having no loot scaling with difficulty, making you completely indifferent towards where you are and what you are doing.

- Having boss tier drops such as blueprints drop with rng from a boss that dies from two clips in the face, spending 99.8% of your "farming time" with running to or from the boss room, having no team work, no boss fight, no nothing in the process.

- Having 0 team work or ANY content that would force you to do team work, leaving 3 other players on your solo map just for the lulz of it cause you are perfectly able to one shot enemies or nuke an entire room at the touch of a single button

- 0 stopping power for enemies even at higher levels making you able to slash dash through the entire map

 

And its 2 in the morning so i think i have reached my limit at coherent thinking.

 

For possible solutions refer to:

 

 

And thats all about i can say in regards of this entire topic.

My issue was never that you have to do farming and bear with rng to some extent.

My issue is that there is nothing else, and thats not rhetorically speaking. No. There is LITERALLY nothing.

The entire loot table is pushed into the ****in rng and then diluted further with useless skill mods, while farming is no effort at any given time, poses no challenge, no change, no nothing. There is no team work, no communication, no socializing, no planning, no tuning, no theorizing, no synergy, no roles, no classes, no team objectives, nothing matters, screw your choices, go and repeatedly kill the same useless and defenseless pedestrian of a boss for 89 times till our holy lord of rng script decides to bless you with a bp, yet it wont matter at all by that time cause you grew brain cancer after the 6th day of farming.

 

Duh... rant rant rant... I think i have presented my case more than understandable enough.

If thats not the case, then write me down cause this is all i can manage. Im sorry.

 

So much winning.

You said it all

+9000

Im used to farm in games so farming inst the problem as you said,the lack of a real end game and coop enviromment and now the need to join a big clan is the problem.

Another nice game being dragged by poor game design.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Raijinmeister

[_Chaser]

What's an RPG that allows for 200+ hours of playtime, is multiplayer, and isn't accomplishing that by farming?

dark souls

[Xylia]

Adding Fallout 3, New Vegas, Skyrim (imo, don't need to farm, using gold (the primary currency) you can buy mats for crafting mostly), and Borderlands 2 (sure there are bosses to be farmed, but you can get quite a bit of playtime from leveling and playing the 4 base chars, even without the DLC)

 

Add Dark Souls to that list, there are lots of peeps who put a lot of playtime into DkS. Though, it has PvP, and not everybody enjoys PvP but there are ways around PvP but it means being forced into solo mode...

[Aerensiniac]

Supplementary bump

[Dusklite]

Complimentary bump

[MasterLean]

I find the fact that the majority of people attacking/not understand the OP's point are GMs rather unsurprising.

Edited May 27, 2013 by MasterLean

[Aerensiniac]

I find the fact that the majority of people attacking/not understand the OP's point are GMs rather unsurprising.

Im unsure as to what the connection is. A GM does not want to have something to do?

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Im unsure as to what the connection is. A GM does not want to have something to do?

I think his point is, GMs paid $250, so they have a vested interest in the game not sucking (as does anyone who pays some money into the game)

 

edit: However I do see a lot of M/GMs on the side of the OP(not saying that GMs are all on one side here)

Edited May 27, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[FiendFyre]

I agree with this, farming is getting a little out of hand. It's just not much fun anymore.

I still enjoy playing, but not nearly as much as I used to. Everything takes huge amounts of resources to farm, and then you have to wait obscene amounts of time to actually use whatever you just spent a week farming for.

Some of us don't have an abundance of free time to play, we have school, work, etc. and we really can't sit around and farm all day.

Please do something about this DE.