Dojo Research - "forced" Into A Large Clan

[Zyxess]

TL;DR: Dojo research gives access to exclusive items. Since this is expensive, I feel forced to join a big clan for no other reason. Additionally, this was not communicated pre-U8.

 

 

I'm a mostly-solo player. I guess it's mostly due to the "disconnected from lobby" issues, as well as the IMHO horrible gameplay experience in high-ping missions. It also puts the pace of the mission (rush/slow/loot) in my hands without ruining anyone's fun. Another huge bonus is that I can pause, letting me play whenever I want, especially in-between other activities.

 

I've really liked the keys to Warframe's business model so far. With skill, moderate time commitment, and a lot of patience, I could get anything in the game. I've invested platinum in frame/weapon slots to support the devs, and to give me variety. Sure the ? alerts can be annoying at times, but there's always another day, always another chance.

Dojo research changes that completely. Now we have items hidden behind a massive resource-gate.

I would much rather have that at the very least these "exclusives" would be "?-able" and "plat-able".

 

This was not communicated in advance, and I feel just like the outburst that happened with the Glaive. The livestream 5 (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/41760-livestream-5-thanks-for-watching/) summary said "what about people not in clans? Honest answer, we encourage you to be in a clan. We understand it won’t be for everyone, though. Co-op at squad level is awesome. Solo is fine, small groups are fine, you can make a small clan and still enjoy hanging out in your Dojo" and "We are encouraging users to start clans or join clans, but definitely understand it's not for everyone." Dojo research seems to me to fly in the face of what was stated here.

 

So now I feel forced to join a big clan so I can benefit from their dojo research. That is the only reason. I'm happy alone, maybe occasionally going into a cell. I feel like I can support the devs just fine without being in a clan. I despise big clans in general - I've been in "small" clans for, what, some 15-20 odd years of gaming by now? What does DE even get out of me being in a clan as opposed to a lone wolf?

If you want people to play together and interact together, dojo research is the wrong carrot stick you're putting out there. Heck, if anything, I feel *endorsed* to join a clan just to leech on their research and then (effectively) quit it once I've reaped the benefits.

 

I sincerely hope DE has dojo research on the next "hot topic", and that DE reconsiders the mere existance of dojo research entirely.

Communication seems to still need to improve, because this feels a lot like a broken promise that snuck up and put a knife in my back.

 

 

PS: I understand part of this has come up already from the perspective of small clans wanting to have a big dojo area. I think this is different on enough points to justify this thread.

 

EDIT: Thread this currently on 7 pages. Only page 2 was related to anything I had to say. Everything else is people trying to argue whether or not the resource costs in the dojo are too high or easy obtainable, when in truth, either way is just plain bad.

Sad day.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Zyxess

[Tabtree]

This was definitely communicated in advance that the dojo wold allow you to research new weapons, although i do think that the there needs be a some sort of scaling with how large your clan is, other wise smaller clans get screwed

[zacharon]

i agree on this it will be very hard to even get members into your own clan (if its small) now.maybe DE should make the prices scale allong with your clans size 

sorry for my bad english

[Aigloblam]

RIght there with you. My clan is only 10 people and only 4 of them really play that often. We were so happy to see the Dojo become a reality, but when we saw the costs of even the smallest addition, we were floored. 15,000 rubedo between 10 players is three and a half forevers. I'd say you are welcome to join our clan, but since it would still be tiny, it wouldn't do you any good. Heres hoping something can possibly be done about this but its not likely.

[CrazyCanadian24]

This post basically sums up my general feelings about the new clan system. Not completely out of reach, but far enough away to put you off. I mean, lets get real, 5 Forma for the most basic extensions? That not only feels ridiculous, but also downright P2W.

Edited May 24, 2013 by CrazyCanadian24

[stealthcl0wn]

>Start a clan
>Stop freeloading

PROBLEM SOLVED

[CrazyCanadian24]

>Start a clan

>Stop freeloading

PROBLEM SOLVED

 

>Start a clan

>Clan is still way too small to do anything

 

PROBLEM NOT SOLVED

[MetalGerbil]

they mentioned it on the livestream.

this will all blow over when people are established and the idea of the "big scary dojo" goes away and everybody and their mother has one.

some will probably just sell "crafting" access for those who arent into the big dojo lifestyle. probably in the form of donating resources to whatever is being built.

in time time even small clans will get what they want. there is also the clan trading system to consider as im sure bigger clans will trade with smaller clans for mutual benefit.

i solo. in fact i have my own solo clan. dojo has a big room with a corridor on the way. i gives not any damn about researching things that will make an already easy game easier. dont care if it takes a year. ill get it ma self.

point is nobody is twisting your arm. you are forcing yourself for things you have no information on.

[stealthcl0wn]

>Start a clan

>Clan is still way too small to do anything

 

PROBLEM NOT SOLVED

Yes it is

You're not supposed to unlock everything instantly

Start a clan with some people in region chat, and work towards getting stuff.

IT'S

*EASY*

[CrazyCanadian24]

I love how people are actually defending this.

 

Clan dojos need a tweak. It's just that simple.

 

Yes it is

You're not supposed to unlock everything instantly

Start a clan with some people in region chat, and work towards getting stuff.

IT'S
*EASY*

 

No, it's not. There is no way a 5 or 10 man clan is going to go anywhere fast without spending some Platinum *coughFORMAcough*. Not everyone has money to blow on Platinum, you know.

Edited May 24, 2013 by CrazyCanadian24

[stealthcl0wn]

I love how people are actually defending this.

 

Clan dojos need a tweak. It's just that simple.

 

 

No, it's not. There is no way a 5 or 10 man clan is going to go anywhere fast without spending some Platinum *coughFORMAcough*. Not everyone has money to blow on Platinum, you know.

Forma comes in daily rewards and via alerts. Just like potatoes, you'll get it if you aren't an impatient fool.

[SpartanChief1170]

The issue with scaling to clan size (I believe DE_Steve said this once) is that it makes it so that you then need clan members that "Pull their weight" in clans where some people don't log on much (whether by choice or not), it would be better for the clan to kick that person out. DE doesn't want to force that kind of behavior on people either, and it seems worse to me. (I am also a mostly solo player, with a small gourp i normally play with).

With the Dojo the main room has 2 doors. you could just make your dojo have the research room coming off one of these (to lower the resource requirement) and then expand off the other side. (I don't know how the research works yet though)

[Jaxomfaux]

i know people are tired of hearing this but "IT'S BETA".  this game is a work in progress and not near completion yet. it comes in phases as it's programmed. the dojo is listed as an alpha feature. they've given you all sorts of warning signs from the start and i'm sure eventually they'll do exactly what they said.

 

but at the moment they're just getting the feature out there. so relax and throw them constructive criticism to work with.

 

being a 3 man guild the dojo is not currently optimal for us. i'm hoping to see that changed cuz i'm dying to have a rocket launcher, but i expect it won't be tomorrow. 

[Shion963]

Researching new weapons was mentioned in Livestream, but they also mentioned balancing it for small clans so that we don't get barred. I understand that OP is more towards the research, but I personally think that it's related to dojo building requirements in general.

 

IMHO this is the best proposal for building dojos for smaller clans.

What they could do is make it so resources speed up the building process; for example, a cross section will build itself over 2 days, but with resources it can be built in only 5 minutes to an hour. Bigger things like the reactor could be 5 days or something.

This way, large clans will still get their stuff faster, having an advantage, and smaller clans don't have to grind resources for an entire month....

And this method could also be applied to researching, where a smaller clan would run mostly on the 'timer', and larger clans would run it on the resource-based boosting.

 

4-man clan: "Wait 5 days~1 week for a weapon research? No prob, we'll put in some resources as we get them to boost it."

40-man clan: "Guys let's throw all our resources into this so we can get it by tomorrow!"

 

Anyways I hope they tweak dojo building for smaller clans in coming updates.

[Maully]

>Start a clan

>Stop freeloading

PROBLEM SOLVED

 

I hate resorting to name calling, but you're a $&*^. If you're happy with the current system that's fine, but don't belittle the opinion of others who feel that things could do with some adjusting. 

 

Back on topic, I have posted in other threads but this one actually seems closer to the point I have made elsewhere - each cell is only ever going to be around 4 people right, so you game with three others at a time MAX. So why are these Dojos built with clans of several hundred in mind is completely bizarre. We get that DE are trying to build an active community vibe, but it sort of just jars with the playstyle in my humble opinion. If the resource amount was scaled down slightly over-all (especially for things such as hallways and connectors) it would make these bloated clans still much more viable but give smaller clans a fighting chance. Really, I don't see why the Dojo is so restrictive. 

[CrazyCanadian24]

Forma comes in daily rewards and via alerts. Just like potatoes, you'll get it if you aren't an impatient fool.

 

1: Potatoes are rare as hell

2: You still need a minimum of 5 Forma for ANY room, and that number is usually higher for the more important rooms.

3: Resorting to name calling?

[Aigloblam]

Forma comes in daily rewards and via alerts. Just like potatoes, you'll get it if you aren't an impatient fool.

There is a huge difference between being impatient, and having to wait 3 months.

Also, this means there is no way to Work for forma....you just have to get lucky.

 

The smallest build costs 5 Forma, and thats simply a hallway. How are 10 people supposed to ever get their hands on 1 million credits for a clan hall? For a 400 member clan its really easy....but for the rest of us its literally a month of grinding. And in a big clan, one person is almost useless, they get no say in anything because they can't provide enough mats to matter in the long run. In a small clan we are always in contact with eachother, know who needs what, and are always willing to help, Thats a true clan. If it gets too big, everyone just becomes a name that you see more often than others.

[stealthcl0wn]

I hate resorting to name calling, but you're a $&*^. If you're happy with the current system that's fine, but don't belittle the opinion of others who feel that things could do with some adjusting. 

 

Back on topic, I have posted in other threads but this one actually seems closer to the point I have made elsewhere - each cell is only ever going to be around 4 people right, so you game with three others at a time MAX. So why are these Dojos built with clans of several hundred in mind is completely bizarre. We get that DE are trying to build an active community vibe, but it sort of just jars with the playstyle in my humble opinion. If the resource amount was scaled down slightly over-all (especially for things such as hallways and connectors) it would make these bloated clans still much more viable but give smaller clans a fighting chance. Really, I don't see why the Dojo is so restrictive. 

I wasn't belittling anyone's opinion. If I did that I'd be saying "HAHA THAT'S MORONIC" or something. Instead I'm saying; Why leech off of someone else's work when you can put some in and do it yourself?

[Maully]

 

4-man clan: "Wait 5 days~1 week for a weapon research? No prob, we'll put in some resources as we get them to boost it."

40-man clan: "Guys let's throw all our resources into this so we can get it by tomorrow!"

 

Anyways I hope they tweak dojo building for smaller clans in coming updates.

 

This is actually not that bad of an idea. However If time is the only restricting factor you're not really building it, you're just starting a clock...which isn't nearly as satisfying. 

[Advanced-]

There is a huge difference between being impatient, and having to wait 3 months.

Also, this means there is no way to Work for forma....you just have to get lucky.

 

The smallest build costs 5 Forma, and thats simply a hallway. How are 10 people supposed to ever get their hands on 1 million credits for a clan hall? For a 400 member clan its really easy....but for the rest of us its literally a month of grinding. And in a big clan, one person is almost useless, they get no say in anything because they can't provide enough mats to matter in the long run. In a small clan we are always in contact with eachother, know who needs what, and are always willing to help, Thats a true clan. If it gets too big, everyone just becomes a name that you see more often than others.

How are 10 people sopposted to get 1 mill?

100k a person. Considering alerts give.up to 15k alone.... its not hard At all. Take 1 day off from building guns and instead use those Resources for The clan.

10 people is all you really need. If everyone contributes its easily done.

[MisguidedGT]

The issue with scaling to clan size (I believe DE_Steve said this once) is that it makes it so that you then need clan members that "Pull their weight" in clans where some people don't log on much (whether by choice or not), it would be better for the clan to kick that person out. DE doesn't want to force that kind of behavior on people either, and it seems worse to me. (I am also a mostly solo player, with a small gourp i normally play with).With the Dojo the main room has 2 doors. you could just make your dojo have the research room coming off one of these (to lower the resource requirement) and then expand off the other side. (I don't know how the research works yet though)

Well, there's more than one way to scale things. For instance, they could create basic versions of labs that allow access to the new content, but don't look as cool, take longer to function, etc. The larger clans will want, and will achieve, the best of the best (the bat cave) and the smaller clans will eke out research in the equivalent of a cardboard box with a junior chemistry set,but at least we could still access the content.

[Mainabi]

There is a huge difference between being impatient, and having to wait 3 months.

Also, this means there is no way to Work for forma....you just have to get lucky.

 

The smallest build costs 5 Forma, and thats simply a hallway. How are 10 people supposed to ever get their hands on 1 million credits for a clan hall? For a 400 member clan its really easy....but for the rest of us its literally a month of grinding. And in a big clan, one person is almost useless, they get no say in anything because they can't provide enough mats to matter in the long run. In a small clan we are always in contact with eachother, know who needs what, and are always willing to help, Thats a true clan. If it gets too big, everyone just becomes a name that you see more often than others.

1million doesn't take that much time,

if everyone of the 10 people clan spend 100k (which you can get in under an hour) you hae no prob at all

the problem is simply forma, 

[CrazyCanadian24]

1million doesn't take that much time,

if everyone of the 10 people clan spend 100k (which you can get in under an hour) you hae no prob at all

the problem is simply forma, 

 

Well, to be fair, Rubedo is a bit of a problem too.

[FrostWolf]

Well, there's more than one way to scale things. For instance, they could create basic versions of labs that allow access to the new content, but don't look as cool, take longer to function, etc. The larger clans will want, and will achieve, the best of the best (the bat cave) and the smaller clans will eke out research in the equivalent of a cardboard box with a junior chemistry set,but at least we could still access the content.

 

So visually remind them they are inadequate just cause they want to be small?

[Aigloblam]

This is actually not that bad of an idea. However If time is the only restricting factor you're not really building it, you're just starting a clock...which isn't nearly as satisfying. 

Extremely good idea. You are right that it isnt as satisfying...but at least it gets it done.

 

How are 10 people sopposted to get 1 mill?

100k a person. Considering alerts give.up to 15k alone.... its not hard At all. Take 1 day off from building guns and instead use those Resources for The clan.

10 people is all you really need. If everyone contributes its easily done.

Ok then totally ignore the credit cost...How about the 15k Alloy Plate? Or the 30k Rubedo? Granted thats the most expensive one, but its still nigh impossible for 10 people to do it in less than 2 months of solid grinding. All we want is the Research room and the Dueling room...but to get that we are going to need:

75k credits

65k Salvage

35k Ferrite

120k Nano Spores

10 Forma

Thats just for the Dueling room...To get that you need to build support rooms to get more capacity and energy. That doesn't seem absolutely insane to you for a small clan to get?