Coptering Vs Parkour 2.0 - How Much Speed Did We Really Lose?

[Abenoki]

It's still their fault that people came to love it because they were lazy nuking it instantly...

 

not getting what your point is? still doesnt make a difference that its gone, should stay gone, was an unintended glitch that needed to be fixed, and throwing a fit because you think itll come back if you do is still childish. You havent provided one valid counter argument to that but to say ""Well its DEs fault people enjoyed it before they removed it", no really? Who else couldve done a thing about it? youre merely stating the obvious.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Echoa

[XtheMATTx]

You didn't even bother reading the thread, I already admitted that I am salty in an earlier post. It will be back as an optional  thing (because...community..). Now continue lecturing me about it. The S#&$storm DE caused with this won't settle anytime soon.

I for one DID read this thread, and Momo93, you come across as a whiny spoiled little brat that is just looking to complain about something because he doesnt want to learn something new.

 

Also, Parkour 1.0 will NEVER and I quote NEVER be coming back at all. So either leave or stop complaining.

[Tsunero]

I for one DID read this thread, and Momo93, you come across as a whiny spoiled little brat that is just looking to complain about something because he doesnt want to learn something new.

 

Also, Parkour 1.0 will NEVER and I quote NEVER be coming back at all. So either leave or stop complaining.

 

I can complain as much as I want. You can ignore me too and continue playing your whiteknight role. You didn't raise any valid points either, you just like the new system and have your opinion about in and that's it. Go watch the earlier videos, you can't do things like that now, it's a fact.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Momo93

[ivlr3vil]

Hm... that video, did you factor in the Exilus slot?

 

As for parkour, coptering's removal isn't the end all of things. The important part is where do they take the system next, there will be a parkour 3.0 someday after all.

 

 

Notice Excalibur's wall run in this video for tomb of the sentients, see how he can change directions? I thought it would have been cool to have free directional wall running movement or at least more directions. Although the bunny hop system isn't what I expected, it gives you more directions to hop in than before. Hopefully they do the wall running back in and do more fluid wall running one day, while bunny hopping is a placeholder.

[SurryCurry]

Even though this is about Coptering VS. Parkour 2.0, a lot of the arguments are about how Parkour 2.0 handles.

So this is for you. Here are two videos for comparison's sake - even though I mentioned earlier that it would be awhile to find a good comparison, I completely forgot about the dojo.

 

Here's 1.0 (mute the commentary if you'd like): 

 

Here's 2.0 (it isn't me running the obstacle course, by the way):

 

So, I think the way both of them went through the course is somewhat similar. But the path the Ash took was a bit more within-the-lines, and still competes with the Loki.

 

Also, if you read the 1.0 video's description, it mentions that the Loki was running Maglev and Rush. I don't know if the Ash is running anything, but let's be fair - it's an Ash, which is not as fast as Loki when you split hairs, and given the mod retooling, I just find it less likely that it's running much - so you can jab at me about making assumptions.

 

But my point has been that it's all about potential. Creativity exists in either system and being stubborn about changing how you move isn't going to help you get better, so why bother moaning?

 

Here's a generalization, which you can also jab at me about: just because you're as bad at moving around as you were when you were brand-new doesn't mean everyone is.

[Br34kf4s7]

No, I am not doing it wrong, not to mention I main melee.....gliding is USELESS with it (and f*cks up blocking while airbone). Now I can't jump up, block the rocket from a Napalm then smash into the ground because all my momentum is lost thanks to gliding. You could do all sorts of crazy things with coptering, the new system is inferior in every way.

 

Edit: Directional air melee is also lost (you can't hit S#&$), blocking became useless now. Only the run and gun people benefitted from this new system a bit.

 

Uh, wrong?

 

I main melee, and not only am I happy that heavy melee is more relevant now, but I also find it far easier to maneuver around enemies and hit them with AoE ground slams.

 

Also, coptering catapulted you in a straight direction, which helped with rushing through missions but I found myself slamming into walls half the time. Parkour 2.0 is much more fluid and controlled. You can't even argue with that, it's a fact.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Stratospherius

[ArbitUHM]

This shouldn't be news to anyone. They pretty much said they were going to dial back from the insane speeds you could achieve with Zoren, Tipedo, etc and in return our mobility wouldn't be dependent on what melee weapon you equip. There are still some wrinkles to iron out, but Parkour 2.0 looks good and still goes pretty fast, so I'm happy. Biggest issue I have is that it's awkward to tack a big leap onto the end of a wall run.

[Hisophonic]

Coptering was handy don't get me wrong, but we have a more "nicer" system in place depending on how you look at it. Sure people may argue that Coptering is indeed faster, but let us not forget that it was a bug and Parkour 2.0 is an actual movement system rather than a melee movement dependent system.

I abused the Tipedo's little boost in 1.0, but i can easily get used to this new system because 1) It's here to stay, 2) Useless whining isn't going to make them revert it, 3) If you get creative with Parkour 2.0 like the previous iteration then you can make it go faster.

 

My only gripe is the wall hopping, though i can get used to it

Adapt and Learn.

[ChivalricDeath]

Steve will most likely see those that are super opposed to this change as whiny babies (which they are) and probably won't care. Steve is a great guy, but this is HIS game. And he's not going to let some children spoiled by a janky and ugly "mechanic" like coptering to sway his opinion. Coptering will not come back, it will not come back as an optional feature. Get used to it

 

"B-But! If we scream our little heads off loud enough they will bring back coptering and get rid of this new parkour system that they have been working on for months and months putting all that hard work into... Right?"

 

You can scream to your hearts content, but PK 2.0 is here to stay. So you can take your bullshniz helicoptering golden rhinos and stick it where the sun don't shine

[DzeraDragonbane]

It is entirely likely I counted wrong... I have 2 very distracting kittens.... However, that doesn't change the simplicity of the control nor the now equal movement for all weapons... I mean, don't get me wrong, the Tipedo is nice but I actually prefer my Jat Kittag and Redeemer and its a pain to be left in the dust in every mission just because I dare venture out to try different weapons... In Parkour 2.0 we can stick together as a team much easier with a larger variety of weapons and complete the same missions in a still decent amount of time...

Exactly, Parkour 2.0 gives you freedom to use your melee weapon and not polearms [ tipedo *cough* *cough* ]..........

 

Oh you wanna use galatine? Jat kittag? 

Good luck being in 4th place bruh

[ that was coptering ]

[Arenzo4]

That's not a very good comparison, considering the generation of capture missions.

 

Amazing that some people think a glitchy lightspeed spin attack is superior to a complete and free-flowing system.

because all alot of people care about is speed, and in that case Lightspeed>Free flowing system. I prefer the new system because its more fun, but i do miss that speed

[(PSN)edubluvpack]

Real comparison should be between parkour 2.0 and non-copter movement in 1.0. Coptering was a glitch where warframe speed was affected by melee attack speed. Good riddance.

[-InV-igo95862]

 

Also, if you read the 1.0 video's description, it mentions that the Loki was running Maglev and Rush. I don't know if the Ash is running anything, but let's be fair - it's an Ash, which is not as fast as Loki when you split hairs, and given the mod retooling, I just find it less likely that it's running much - so you can jab at me about making assumptions.

 

 

That's my video. I did not run any mobility mods on Ash.

[Ralathar44]

And why no speed/parkour mods? Obviously since it would compromise your build. Compromising your melee for better coptering was basically the main complaint in the old system, so compromising your warframe build isn't an option. We have the exilus slot now, but the thing is either painfully slow and lots of work, or a straight up plat purchase - I don't feel like that should be a requirement to get back a little speed (which will still be subpar).

And this is why your comparison is inherently flawed.  You actually felt the need to bias the test in the favor of coptering.  People sacrificed their melee weapon to copter.  That was not a choice, you either did that or your movement was 10 times slower.  With parkour 2.0 you can choose whether to sacrifice a mod for a movement mod OR you can unlock the new slot and use 1-2 formas (if you are at capacity with your build) on your frame to fit the movement mod in the new slot.

The reality is your video shows parkour 2.0, without movement mod, as around 40% slower on the slowest frame that would have the largest difference between the two.  Including the movement mod would make this like 20% slower.

So the reality is, we lost a small amount of speed, but gained the ability of choice and non-speed related mobility.  Choice of speed, choice of melee weapons, and additional mobility and freedom that isn't just firing straight through a map to chain capture missions.

Also, to be honest, I doubt you've mastered parkour 2.0 yet.  It just came out, the difference may be even smaller than that.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Ralathar44

[Vulpei]

I think the real argument should be "How much more ninja do you feel now compared to before?"

[Etsoree]

Quite a bit of speed. I never touched my Zoren after my Glaive Prime, and I've been primarily using that as my 'copter' for ages. I could launch across each room, even from the starting platform on the new Uranus tileset ( the outside one ), copter ONCE and get launched inside and down the first elevator shaft.

 

Now, I can't, but I do like the mobility. Pros and cons.

 

RIP triple Glaive spin.

[PR1D3]

Parkour 2.0 may be slower than coptering with a tipedo, but it is definitely faster than coptering with a scindo prime. Just sayin.

Bullet jump off the ground, then double jump, then aim glide to clear a room in seconds. You are doing it wrong ^o^

 

 

*EDIT*

Although the bullet jump does look ridiculous, coptering kinda looked ridiculous also.

or ricochet off of walls and continue to use bullet jumping

[Chub_N_Tuck]

Great you're enjoying it. Well you're still grinding the same missions, so you'll still try to race through things as fast possible, only that "as fast as possible" is now significantly slower. As the time required to grind the same missions has increased, so has the grind.

 

Not necessarily true. It is true we're running the same missions, but the gameplay aspect is more valued in parkour 2.0 than speed. You talk as if the speed is the only thing that you had to do rushing missions, and overlook how gameplay is way different. Sure, capture missions your rushing capabilities are lessened, but that's about it. That's not the only mission you run, is it?

Edited August 3, 2015 by Chuck_NoMiss

[Pyus]

Coperting: Each weapon had a different feel to it, could go fast, could go slow. Each weapon felt unique

Bullet Jump: Melee now is pointless, rather just shoot mobs. Removed melee from my load outs, increase experience gain on primary and secondary by 20%. 

 

If people liked melee dashes, why not add that along side of bullet jumps, I like chocolate and I like vanilla, DE should have swirled their flavors. 

[Cidolfus]

I can complain as much as I want. You can ignore me too and continue playing your whiteknight role. You didn't raise any valid points either, you just like the new system and have your opinion about in and that's it. Go watch the earlier videos, you can't do things like that now, it's a fact.

 

Labeling people "white knights" just because they disagree with your opinion only invalidates said opinion as a whole.

 

 

Coperting: Each weapon had a different feel to it, could go fast, could go slow. Each weapon felt unique

Bullet Jump: Melee now is pointless, rather just shoot mobs. Removed melee from my load outs, increase experience gain on primary and secondary by 20%. 

 

If people liked melee dashes, why not add that along side of bullet jumps, I like chocolate and I like vanilla, DE should have swirled their flavors. 

 

If you truly think that, then you haven't actually been using melee weapons outside of coptering with them. Each and every type of melee is unique, from animations to gameplay tactics to movement. And coptering actually INVALIDATED most melee. Wanna use a big heavy hammer? Well enjoy being left in the dust by everyone with twin zorens! The Lotus help you if you're a slow frame as well!

 

The only thing I'd like them to change is directional melee still giving at least a little more boost so then it's still viable for hitting flying enemies/cameras. Doesn't need to be a large boost, and they can balance it by negating the boost if someone does directional melee right after a bullet jump or double jump.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Cidolfus

[----Fenrir----]

I prefer the new system.

 

- First of all I'm no longer limited in what melee weapon I may use by how good they are at coptering = huge improvement! (just sad that the update completely broke melee weapon range so now it's best not to use any melee weapon at all..)

 

- The old coptering while being fast in a straight line hat some issues with "Overshooting", basically you went to far and ended up hitting walls or falling into holes and stuff like that. It was simply so fast that it was hard to control for anything but traversing straight long corridors.

 

The new system offers much more control and does not look so silly.

[FelisImpurrator]

I main melee, and not only am I happy that heavy melee is more relevant now, but I also find it far easier to maneuver around enemies and hit them with AoE ground slams.

 

Also, coptering catapulted you in a straight direction, which helped with rushing through missions but I found myself slamming into walls half the time. Parkour 2.0 is much more fluid and controlled. You can't even argue with that, it's a fact.

This. This to an absurd degree. I have actually managed to hit maybe 30% more things with air melee than I could before, and that's only 30% because I've only spent a couple of days with the system and my reflexes adapt slowly. Corpus spy, for instance, is much more fun now that I absolutely know I will not randomly roll or catapult myself into a wall of lasers unless I myself screw up.

Not necessarily true. It is true we're running the same missions, but the gameplay aspect is more valued in parkour 2.0 than speed. You talk as if the speed is the only thing that you had to do rushing missions, and overlook how gameplay is way different. Sure, capture missions your rushing capabilities are lessened, but that's about it. That's not the only mission you run, is it?

Cap missions are actually fun now, because they feel like a real chase as opposed to a sped-up video of piloting a guided, high-velocity missile into an enemy's face.

Coperting: Each weapon had a different feel to it, could go fast, could go slow. Each weapon felt unique

Bullet Jump: Melee now is pointless, rather just shoot mobs. Removed melee from my load outs, increase experience gain on primary and secondary by 20%. 

 

If people liked melee dashes, why not add that along side of bullet jumps, I like chocolate and I like vanilla, DE should have swirled their flavors. 

And... really? Copter made everything feel generic, sorted into categories based on how far they fly when you kick the physics engine in the head.

 

Melee is, so far, more fun and useful than it's ever been. No more wildly sailing past an enemy while trying to hit it out of the air with a staff.

The only thing I'd like them to change is directional melee still giving at least a little more boost so then it's still viable for hitting flying enemies/cameras. Doesn't need to be a large boost, and they can balance it by negating the boost if someone does directional melee right after a bullet jump or double jump.

On that note, though: It may not be necessary, because the biggest issue with melee right now is that its range is broken - bugged since U16.5 at the very latest, and DE is still tracking that issue (which has gotten worse with U17 - some core aspect of the code, that has gotten frequent and recent changes, is evidently bugged in a way they can't identify).

[vitmerc]

If i would be to compare the old system to the new one, i would conclude the following:

 

1.0 Did right:

Directional melee boost. It felt quite natural and fitting the game style.

Wall-running - not really "right" as per se, but on some first concepts of parkour 2.0 it was brilliant. It was a Wall RUN, not a wall BOUNCE.

Ziplines - wouldnt mind having a choise of hanging for speed, or running up-down for easier control.

 

2.0 Did right: 

All the air manuevers. Tipedo, rest in the depths of hell you came from.

Vaults/bounces also feel much more natural now.

 

Now, a combination of those two systems for parkour 2.5 would make it happen.

[Omnimorph]

Just to weigh in here

 

I never found coptering to be interesting or particularly skill intensive. I used it occasionally to clear a bit of distance when jumping a gap or something along those lines but it wasnt my defacto movement glitch. It was ugly, unreliable, and really shouldve been nuked a long time ago. PK 2.0 while perhaps doesnt allow you to fling yourself so hard you get trapped on a wall, does allow for finer tuned control, and with proper use the chaining of combos to clear large distances quickly. It also doesnt limit you to certain frames or weapons. Investing time into PK 2.0 I can say I most certainly clear distances, traverse tiles, and in general just move better with more consistency, control ,and the overall avg speed is better considering i dont get trapped on sections of the tile because my moment is so high i clip into the wall.

 

This about says it all.  It's pompous twaddle to proclaim that people who like the new system were crap at the old. 

 

I wasn't an expert at the old system, but I enjoyed it and got around well enough. 

 

I enjoy the new system more, and get around well enough with it too.  But the main thing I like about it is how it's more integrated with combat.  It's not just a movement system, it's become an integral and fluid part of the combat in a way that the old system wasn't.

 

IOW, the rhythm of play isn't:-

 

special movement system -> combat -> special movement system -> combat

 

It's:-

 

special movement system to combat -> special movement system in combat -> special movement system to combat -> special movement system in combat.

 

IOW, the "special movement" is constant throughout the play.  Much, much better overall.

 

We lose top speed and gain in general, average, overall fluidity of movement.

[nobody1special]

http://static.gamespot.com/uploads/original/1347/13479024/2421068-both.jpg[/img]

 

No seriously I liked coptering and being able to change attack mid air... At the same time, the new parkour is also pretty damn cool....

What I dont see is why they had to remove coptering altogether...