Mods, Forma, And Build Freedom

[FelisImpurrator]

-Disclaimer-

First off, before anything else, I would like to say that yes, I am aware this is not going to be a new idea in the slightest. Rather, it is a restatement of a very old set of suggestions, posted now because I think that - with U17 and the potential opportunities provided by the Exilus slot - now is absolutely the right time to bring it up again.

 

-Summary and Introduction-

I expect players older than me will already know what this is about. To sum it up:

 

1. Make Forma permanently unlock a slot to be freely changed to any polarity, per configuration, without clearing all builds with every swap.

2. Make existing polarities movable with zero forma installed.

3. Give us the ability to down-rank EDIT: "underclock" mods, dynamically, per configuration.

 

Now, since this is an attempt to synthesize a long, long time's worth of feedback, this is going to be a lengthy ride.

 

The point of this is not "more power". It isn't about, say, having twice as many mod slots or more spaces for regular mods so our stats can be min-maxed to a greater degree. The entire point is to provide absolute freedom and flexibility when building warframes and weapons. This, I think, is more relevant than it's ever been, now that Update 17 has arrived and seems to be devoted to the concepts of balance, utility, and freedom - whether of movement or of build choice.

 

One of the oldest issues with the current mod system, to my knowledge, is simply that it's too rigid. We see one of the core issues in the game being that weapons and warframes are often railroaded into one or two "optimal" builds and a vast array of "useless" ones.

 

Now, a fair bit of this lies in the fact that many mods are useless (e.g., Intruder, Warm Coat) or only marginally/extremely situationally useful (many Nightmare mods); otherwise they could be potentially amazing, or actually were good, but are sadly outdated in the current state of the system (Shotgun reload/RoF/etc mods, many Corrupted mods, status chance standalone). Meanwhile, other mods are so integral to viability as to be ubiquitous (Damage, Multishot, etc). But that's a much larger long-term issue, and only part of the puzzle.

 

The other part is that the polarity and ranking systems, far from giving us the freedom to customize our builds any way we wish, actually contribute to the railroading effect.

 

-The Problem of Polarities-

Putting a forma on a weapon or a warframe allows us to place a mod we want onto that slot for less cost, provided it's the same polarity - sure. But what if we want to run a different build, that uses mods of a different polarity? All of those polarities, in an instant, are now working against you.

 

Take Nova Prime's default of three Madurai polarities. At present, there are six Madurai mods for warframes, total: Continuity, Rage, Intensify/Blind Rage/Transient Fortitude, and Provoked. Nova is usually unsuited to a Rage build, because her lack of hard defensive ability causes her to lose health faster than she can possibly hope to regain energy. Molecular Prime is capped at 175% power strength EDIT: 75% slow, 30% speed, and minor scaling on a 500 damage blast-element explosion (that is generally considered incidental to the speed change), with the damage multiplier being fixed; Null Star is not a reliable primary damage dealer (instead being a supplemental, passive layer); and Antimatter Drop gains no significant benefit from strength stacking due to the stat only affecting starting damage and thus being quickly surpassed by guns. Provoked is extremely situational and rarely, if ever, used.

 

Many builds consider one Strength mod to be perfectly sufficient for a Prime-focused Nova, and so you get two Madurai mods - [int/TF/BR] and Continuity. But if you keep that third polarity, you automatically have increased mod drain, thereby actually reducing your flexibility. So what do people do? Forma it out. Problem solved, right?

 

Sure. Except, of course, the distinct possibility that new mods might be released for that polarity you just removed, or you simply want to try a niche build with non-standard mods. Or, like Nova, your warframe has two builds that are direct opposites in terms of their requirements. Some, like Nova herself, have three- or four-forma builds that have a "bad slot buffer" just large enough to squeeze on every last mod on the alternate config, relying on mod overlap to reuse the same mod in the same slot. But many don't have that luxury.

 

And now we have Exilus, and Exilus has normal drain. What happens if one of those 'perfect fit' builds enters the picture? You need to add two forma to use it, in that case. Doesn't sound too bad as a long-term investment... but then, this really doesn't solve the issue that led to Exilus existing in the first place. Namely, that utility mods are too hard to fit into builds and take too much effort (or sacrifice a crucial stat to a crippling degree) to build around on most frames. And - here's the dealbreaker - for those players who do put on more forma to fit utility mods onto a certain build, they also lock themselves further into that one build; other builds, with few mod overlaps with the "main" build, thus gain an increasing number of bad slots and actually lose points from the change.

 

So, with that in mind, I think it really is time to implement the much-requested change of making Forma permanently unlock a single slot, allowing it to be changed dynamically to fit the current build on each configuration. Does this make warframes overpowered? No, I don't think so, not any more than they can already be - right now you can put on enough forma to push one build to the absolute limit, no problem. But if you want to change out of it, you're just a bit SOL.

 

I, for one, cannot stand changing the aura slot polarity, or adding a lot of forma to warframes, because if I put on the wrong one I'm punished; if I put on the right ones, but too many of the right ones for one specific build, I'm punished. Being locked into a decision like that is not fun, especially when new mods arrive and change the game. But I will say that if I could forma any given warframe ten times in total (one on every slot), and be assured that I could change the polarities on that warframe any way I wanted, as much as I wanted, separately for each configuration - well, I would absolutely make this my long-term goal on every single weapon and frame I actually use. As it is, a situation like the Bladestorm buff is exactly why I'm reluctant to ever touch the aura.

 

Also, I've heard that at one point, polarities could be rearranged regardless of forma, but it was changed to require at least one additional polarity. What I don't understand is why. Does it hurt anyone to be able to, say, move the Vazarin slot on a weapon - used mainly for Life Strike and cold damage - off the first slot, so at the very least the first element isn't effectively locked in for combination purposes? Particularly when a weapon doesn't quite need a forma to have an acceptable build, or wouldn't if not for the locked polarity position limiting flexibility? It shouldn't be an issue.

 

Another incentive to unlock the forma system, besides enabling player choice and helping to curb the "one frame/weapon, one build" issue... it actually adds a neat little tactical decision to make: Do you forma a slot that has an existing, fixed polarity to open its slot for anything? Or do you choose to conserve its polarity, saving you a forma for a specific build at the cost of being unable to change that slot without another forma invested? Now that's a decision I want to be able to make.

 

And on a thematic note - the forma, as an object, is tied to the concept of malleability. Why, then, should it be one of the most restrictive aspects of the mod system as it is now?

 

-Duplicate Mods and Prohibitive Costs-

Now, on to the subject of mod ranks. The subject of the cost it takes to fully rank a mod - in cores and credits - has been an issue of contention for a very long time. Some, like ten-ranked Rare and Legendary mods, have been the subject of many complaints about their immense investment requirements. But from what I can see, one of the single worst problems with this system is the way it compounds if, for any reason, you might need multiple copies of a single mod.

 

Corrupted mods, particularly for warframes, are by far the worst offenders. Their tradeoffs, minor hits for some equipment but massive losses to others, have resulted in the common practice of keeping several copies of each, one for every rank. For a mod like Streamline, having rank 4 (for hitting the efficiency cap with a rank 4 Fleeting Expertise) and rank 5 (for standalone use or compensating for Blind Rage) is easy enough. But what about Blind Rage? Ten copies at different ranks would cost an absurd number of credits and fusion cores. But Blind Rage's penalty is powerful enough that ranking it past a certain point, without less intense backups, is an extremely dangerous move. And if for any reason you need a Primed Mod to stay mid-ranked, RNGesus help you, because you are in for an inordinately difficult ride.

 

People have suggested making a mod's cost dynamically scalable when installed. And my question is - why not? What does it achieve to not have this ability? If a player decides they want to put on a lower ranked version of a mod because they want some of its functionality but it isn't as critical as a more expensive one, they should be able to make that choice freely, with a minimum of hassle. Or if a mod would fit perfectly save for one last rank you don't need on this particular build (but do on others, or for collection) making its cost a odd number, a situation I've run into countless times.

 

It doesn't constitute power creep to allow us to lower the ranking of mods we have already invested hundreds of cores and potentially millions of credits in. Most importantly, it allows us the freedom to build our weapons the way we want or need in a given situation. It would be a huge step toward alleviating the grind of mod ranking, particularly for, say, getting rank 8/9/10 copies of mods separately.

 

And on a related note - this solution would be far, far more elegant. Much cleaner and simpler. See, having ten copies of a single mod is incredibly clunky. It's difficult to search through your mods when, instead of seeing one max ranked copy of each one, you have to scroll through a wall of, say, Blind Rages or Transient Fortitudes, close tot he little pile of Fleeting Expertises. Or having a bunch of different Heavy Calibers for different weapons that are affected more or less heavily by recoil. The UI has been redesigned multiple times with the intent of making it easier to navigate and access information, but that process is limited by content itself; allowing people to use a single copy of each maxed mod in any situation would result in less content to filter every time you enter your arsenal.

 

Again, if I could rank a mod once and be sure that it would be suited for every situation and every buid that uses it, I would prioritize ranking every one to the maximum - because then I wouldn't have to worry about doing it nine more times to varying degrees.

 

-Conclusion-

It has been stated, if I remember correctly, that this game's development goals include: Reducing the grind to a reasonable level (it's not any one factor, quite honestly, but rather the layering of several factors that makes the grind a problem); expanding player choice and freedom; moving away from cookie-cutter builds, motivating players to try new things instead of relying on a single weapon and warframe with a single build setup; and most importantly, making the game more fun.

 

Much of the fun of Warframe, at least as far as I'm concerned, lies in the potential to freely customize your kit in almost any way conceivable - the mere concept of the player having such fine control over nearly every aspect of their capabilities is fantastic and nearly unique in games of this type. In short, I'm a sucker for upgrades, and this game is built around upgrades. But unfortunately, there are glaring, and long-standing, flaws in execution that keep the game from realizing that potential.

 

In an ideal scenario, the idea of "These mods are essential for every weapon/warframe, or for this warframe's builds", or "Every weapon/warframe needs this many of x polarity", or "This build is the only viable one for this piece of equipment" should never exist. Having more flexibility is one giant step toward reaching that state.

 

Additionally, players should be rewarded tangibly for progression without feeling obligated to go through the same process so many times. For forma I can understand having to re-rank; it makes sense. But for mods and correcting existing polarities, it seems like just more useless busy-work and time wastage.

 

If ever there was a right time to do something like this, I believe that time is now, in light of all the new and ambitious changes to the game.

 

Thanks for reading what is effectively a lengthy recap. I'm hoping for some official word on this, as well as community feedback, particularly on how well I've managed to describe the situation.

 

EDIT: Sorry for the mess in here. Any errors and typos I haven't caught are because this was written at three in the morning.

Edited August 2, 2015 by FelisImpurrator

[MA347612890GT4078579132R]

For 3, de-ranking mods does not sound good, perhaps you meant underclocking mods per configuration?

[FelisImpurrator]

For 3, de-ranking mods does not sound good, perhaps you meant underclocking mods per configuration?

Precisely. Hence "dynamic, per configuration". I am writing this at three in the morning; that was my intent, and the essence of what was suggested many times in the past, but my wording may have faltered.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Molecular Prime is capped at 175% power strength,

I need to correct you on this.

Mprime speed buff/debuff is capped at 75% slow and 30% speed (-30% slow, as there's only a single mod having negative effect on power strength, which in case of Mprime and additive speed gives such results).

 

Explosion damage is by no means capped.

[FelisImpurrator]

I need to correct you on this.

Mprime speed buff/debuff is capped at 75% slow and 30% speed (-30% slow, as there's only a single mod having negative effect on power strength, which in case of Mprime and additive speed gives such results).

 

Explosion damage is by no means capped.

Ah. Good catch. That said, the explosion damage is a fixed blast and usually considered peripheral to the slow and damage multiplier (which is indeed fixed) - even Kickbot thinks it's silly to aim for max power strength on a Nova.

[Rynslet]

I really like this idea.

[bejuizb]

Yeah, this would let people use the hundreds or thousands of duplicates as investments that they can make and forget about instead of hoarding so much. I mean, max a Serration to rank 10, and then use whatever other Serrations you get as stuff to either give away to friends or newbies or just sell for credits to use for other processes. I feel like it streamlines the process instead of making the mod system "Dragon Hoard" simulator.

 

I agree with all the points here :D

[Lakais]

I can see the underclocking idea taking flight. Very cool, streamlined and functional.

 

But not for the "freeform polarities". At least not with standard Formas. Simply put, Polarites are tied to the worldbuilding of warframe. The lore and the like. That Lore has to be supported by something and if every damn polarized slot became a generic "half-off" thing (which your description sort of makes it) then that precious "lore and story" that so many people are begging for is undermined. There's little to back it up in the functional game-world. 

If there was a "super-forma" that let you do it (use more then one exilus thingy?) then it might just work. Something for the old-guard to focus on. The newer players have no need to even really know of this stuff because they don't have these maxed out essentials. So make it you need to serious hoops to jump through and buckets of resources. Grindy? Yes, but is it any different from what we've been doing up until now? Grind is all we got.

 

Moving existing polarities without forma? Why not? Many people have problems with many weapons in regard to elemental builds getting out of whack because of a polarity in some derpy spot. Thumb's up. 

 

My take on the whole polarity and forma business is that it's specializing. You are specifically optimizing that piece of gear for a singular role or function. That's what it is. granted, yes maxed out mods and their costs can be an issue. But if you can underclock them, then not that big of an issue. I like the thought that it's a hard question that needs some thought. You can get more power, more efficiency out of X, but you can kiss using Y or Z goodbye. Are you willing to pay that price for that extra power? 

 

Those hard choices make my jimmies tingle in the right ways. 

[FelisImpurrator]

Those hard choices make my jimmies tingle in the right ways. 

The problem is, it's not a hard choice. It never is. Not in this game.

 

I mean, you know, you could tell that to all the people who insist that only one build on one weapon or one warframe is viable and everything else is trash. When faced with that "choice" right now, most people go for the easiest route: Stack DPS and CC into the sky, and screw every other build, because everything you have oneshots and keeps the map permanently stunlocked. This is the problem with builds. It has always been the problem with builds. It is not going to change if the status quo is maintained. There are already people who will straight up insist that you're a trash player if you're not running Corrosive Projection 24/7, not building to squeeze every last drop of DPS out of your Boltor Prime/Vaykor Marelok/Soma Prime, and have a max-efficiency ult to spam until every enemy on the map dissolves in a shower of loot.

 

As for lore? Here's a little of what I was thinking about. Forma means "shape". It is presented as a component that makes things malleable. An Orokin Catalyst is just that - a catalyst for our weapons' power. A forma is, similarly, a catalyst - it does nothing on its own, but it enhances an item's ability to change and become variable. Instead, what it gives us is rigidity. It narrows possibilities. Limits experimentation. Locks people into an unhealthy metagame that consists of cranking the power as high as it will go and leaving it there, because even if you wanted to do anything else, by the time you finished doing that you wouldn't be able to change out of it.

 

On the design side, the idea behind Mods 2.0 - and mod-based progression as an entire system - is that it should grant us freedom, yes? Freedom to determine the extent of our capabilities in nearly every conceivable way - that is the essence of the mod system, and that is the reason we have very few things that scale innately. What part of that is supported by this? In what way does inflexibility and crippling overspecialization fit with the lore or the very same vision that means we exchange getting "free" power increases at level-up for, theoretically, unparalleled customizability? Tell me that.

 

This is why I made the distinction between polarizing an empty slot and polarizing a preset slot. There's your tactical decision. "Do I save myself time and resources by using what is given to me, or do I expend more for the sake of ultimate flexibility?" That is the question I want to define the forma system. Not "What builds will I be locked out of when I put my next forma on?" or "What if I make a mistake and put on the wrong polarity?"

 

Also - no to increasing the grind. This is in direct conflict with the previously stated intent of DE reducing grind. "Grind is all we got"... well, that's the problem right there, isn't it? DE is working to try to make it so that we have more than just that. What you're suggesting is overcomplicating things. RNG is fine. Straight up grind is fine. Timewalls are fine. But put them all together - layer and layer and layer and layer and layer of compound grind - and what you have is something that is not fun, but masochistic. And I know for a fact that the design team is trying to make the game more fun, not less.

 

As for new players not needing it - have you forgotten what it was like? I haven't. I've been here for five months. Five and a half, maybe. I know what it's like to simply not have enough solid gear to fall back on, not enough days played to have the supposed inexhaustible supply of built forma veterans repeatedly claim to have... and not enough space to have any flexibility in build choice. When you're starting out, you can't afford to potato all the things. You work with thirty points and maybe one or two forma on hand at most. Grinding your weapon up again is difficult because you have limited resources and power. Every mistake when applying a polarity is a long-term investment because it's too expensive to correct.

 

So what do most people do when they're new and don't have the resources or knowledge to build the way they want to? They ask other players. And most of the time, the response they get will look a little like this: Put lots of V polarities on your weapon, build for max damage. Build your warframe to fill this one role and only that, because it's easy to build for and you only need to press one button, and you don't need to invest in making any other builds viable. Use this aura and that weapon and these warframes, everything else is useless or too prohibitively expensive. I don't think I have to tell you the problem with that.

 

When every weapon and warframe symbolizes a careful decision that will have to stay with you for dozens, if not hundreds, of hours to fit into limited slots - when every forma is still precious, earned in low-level voids and made with resources even harder to obtain than the blueprints themselves, which are also used for all manner of other essentials - I would argue that that is the time when flexibility is needed the most. As it is now, experimentation is a luxury, and one that has little incentive to begin with; as such, very few people have the time or resources to invest in it.

 

That said - I would not mind the ability to 'upgrade' our existing forma through a lore-related quest. Under one condition: That it should be easily accessible and easy to craft - not "starter weapon" easy, but "reasonable, doesn't cost anything like a raid key or a rare resource blueprint", and not "takes months to max out more than one or two items". It should be for everyone, not just for a handful of "endgame" players. Build the item once, one of your existing polarities (counted by the number of stars) is supercharged and made completely malleable. Repeat seven, eight, or nine times if you wish to unlock the full potential of your warframe.

 

Also, on a note that matters mainly to me - I don't want any more stars on my weapon beyond where I decide to stop. Aesthetically, it feels wrong to have a strange number of forma because of the need to re-forma something or correct a mistake in applying polarities. Appearance is a huge part of Warframe, you know.

[Hammahness808]

About the change to mods you suggested. I was just thinking about this the other day. If you have a mod with 7 drain and only 3 mod capacity. Why would it be so wrong not to temporarily bring it down to just a 3 drain mod instead of a 7?

[FelisImpurrator]

About the change to mods you suggested. I was just thinking about this the other day. If you have a mod with 7 drain and only 3 mod capacity. Why would it be so wrong not to temporarily bring it down to just a 3 drain mod instead of a 7?

I've heard DE was talking about doing this for a while. I just wonder why they haven't already.

[Thelonious]

You can get more power, more efficiency out of X, but you can kiss using Y or Z goodbye. Are you willing to pay that price for that extra power? 

 

Isn't the grind to forma (the BP+ressources+time or plat, and then the releveling to 30) enough of a cost already?

Putting 5 or 6 formas on a piece of gear is time/ressource-consuming. That's a steep price already, isn't it?

 

Do we really have to be punished on top of that for investing that much into a weapon/frame we like a lot? 

 

And frankly, it's come to a point where I don't want to forma anything anymore, in fear of the release of a new mod, or a radical change to a weapon or frame ( *coughFrostcough* ), that shatters all my builds and make my formas, the time and effort I put in, useless.

Every rucking time, having to rethink and redo everything on all of my gear. 

 

Frustrating

Edited August 3, 2015 by Thelonious

[Lakais]

wall of text, but I read it all.

In a way yes, I may have forgotten "what it was like". I've been here since May 2013. But I also consider my playstyle to help me "keep it fresh": I rarely farm and I NEVER potato something before I have leveled it to 30 at least once. Use forma ONLY when I really think I need it. I have only a few times specially gone to missions to farm something and grind my ! to dust. It's a playstyle that colors my perception and I won't deny it.

This is my trick to grinding, I don't. I just.... let it happen. It's weird, it's inefficient. But at least what content there is can pile up in front of me so there is always some weapon or frame for me to poke fun at. And I guess I have been blessed to have "grown up" in a time when damn near everyone were still figuring out how something works, when void was REAAALY new and endless missions didn't exist to completely @#&$ things up.

But as for the mod slot being freeform; I don't consider forma to be some sort of magical thing thing that makes everything it touches "one size fits all". I see mods as what they are: Modules.

Like... computer chips that have a certain socket type. But unlike today's computers where the damn thing simply fits or doesn't, in Tenno gear it fits (exceptions may apply), but to operate it at it's advertised capacity requires power, and if the socket is of the wrong type, it uses more, if it's of the right specialized type, it uses less.

Forma is simply a tool, a resource used to "replace" the socket type, not make it "one size fits all". Which.... actually that's what unpolarized slots are when you think about it....

But I digress! You make very good points! But I can't and won't subscribe to simply making all formad slots be "freeform" unless there's an additional cost to it. And the cost has to be substantial enough to be considerable, something older players can't just shrug off and craft 10 of. If newer players don't have the resources needed to make these, it's fine. It is. Because they won't have the mods upgraded enough, or at all, for this to be a massive issue. If they want it, it's something to work towards.

Underclocking mods is awesome, if only just for the benefit of less inventory clutter, thus more quality of life. Making vanilla polarities movable is also an awesome idea. Helps making some builds work.

But making all polarities be "the right one" will if anything cause one more aspect of grind as people will inadvertently end up thinking that they need ALL THE FORMAS! and proceed to überforma all slots on everything because that way "the thing is complete" Some, hell, most probably won't. But there will be enough vocal idiots to at best make it a meme, and at worst make it something that is actually believed by large portions of players even if they won't go through with it because of the (hopefully) prohibitive cost. Or common sense. But that is in very short supply, even I have trouble keeping a stock of it.

As for the idea that "You need to CC everything and stack DPS" argument. I blame the scaling enemies system and common sense. And endless missions. But again, that is a whole other discussion not related to mods and polarities.

Isn't the grind to forma (the BP+ressources+time or plat, and then the releveling to 30) enough of a cost already?

Putting 5 or 6 formas on a piece of gear is time/ressource-consuming. That's a steep price already, isn't it?

Do we really have to be punished on top of that for investing that much into a weapon/frame we like a lot?

And frankly, it's come to a point where I don't want to forma anything anymore, in fear of the release of a new mod, or a radical change to a weapon or frame ( *coughFrostcough* ), that shatters all my builds and make my formas, the time and effort I put in, useless.

Every rucking time, having to rethink and redo everything on all of my gear.

Frustrating

50 formas on MK1 braton, or was it 100, or was that on someone's carrier... In any case, Formas are not super-rare, nor are they so exorbitantly expensive to make unless you are very new or have a pathological need to have as many weapons building in the foundry as possible. Or the desire to create as massive of a dojo as you can.

I get your point about not wanting to forma or potato your gear. But in those regards I fall back to tried and true thought "Stop worrying and love the bomb."

if I need the mod points and really truly do intend to keep the gun, I forma. If I like it enough not to be bothered to forma, I potato.

Mileage may vary

Edited August 3, 2015 by Lakais

[Thelonious]

Mileage may vary

 

Mileage may vary indeed.

 

And you can only make one forma per day btw. You may have a stockpile of them, I personally never have enough and sometimes buy some with plat.

When I like a weapon, I max the hell out of it.

I spend dozens of hours over an entire week (cause one per day you know) on one single weapon to do so.

And I like a loooooooot of weapons.

 

Lately they released that shotgun nightmare mod, Seeking Fury. And I was using Seeking Force on every shotgun I have (4) , with the matching polarity to fit it. Seeking Fury is just...better in every way, and doesn't have the same polarity. Cound't fit it without removing some other damage mod.

Imagine the frustration. If you can't, you shouldn't even give your opinion here, honestly. 

 

Mileage may vary indeed.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Thelonious

[Lakais]

Mileage may vary indeed.

 

And you can only make one forma per day btw. You may have a stockpile of them, I personally never have enough and sometimes buy some with plat.

When I like a weapon, I max the hell out of it.

I spend dozens of hours over an entire week (cause one per day you know) on one single weapon to do so.

And I like a loooooooot of weapons.

 

Lately they released that shotgun nightmare mod, Seeking Fury. And I was using Seeking Force on every shotgun I have (4) , with the matching polarity to fit it. Seeking Fury is just...better in every way, and doesn't have the same polarity. Cound't fit it without removing some other damage mod.

Imagine the frustration. If you can't, you shouldn't even give your opinion here, honestly. 

 

Mileage may vary indeed.

I remember there being talk about letting you craft more then one of a single item at a time... can't remember where. I'm sure it was devstream something. But oh well, don't quote me on that. 

 

And as for your tendencies to forma gear.... hey, it's your hobby but... if you are having those problems, mate. The only one to blame is the person who stares back at you in the mirror. I mean, really, that's some OCD crap right there. 

 

And by your logic, since I disagree with your methods and style, I should think that because you might just have a massive resource mismanagement issue that you have no right to voice your opinions.

 

But I don't! I think you are perfectly fine voicing your opinion from atop your own tree-stump (like the one I am standing on) and I reserve the right to think you wrong! :3 But in any case, good luck with your weapons. Last I heard there's like... 200+ something of them. Enjoy~

 

(Also, this rum isn't half bad!) 

[FelisImpurrator]

 

Honestly, see, the thing is... I'm trying to find a way to ensure that more playstyles will benefit equally. Again, the point is - freedom and fun before everything else.

 

Again, I maintain that the situation with new/old players is precisely the opposite of what you suggest. I do not want newbies to have a learning experience that involves believing they have to focus on one build and one build alone because to do otherwise is a waste of forma they literally do not have the playtime or the resources to stockpile. It's not even about grinding vs. not grinding. It's about not giving people bad habits - "minmax because it's the most economical use of forma/potatoes" is an extremely common mindset early on.

 

You're effectively suggesting that people should be forced to grind simply to have what the mod system was meant to give them in the first place - customizability. So what if older players can queue up ten of them in a row? So be it. If they want to superforma every single gun in the game ten times for the sake of having done it, that's their absurd dedication to hoarding. Fine.

 

And this "mindset of wanting to 10-forma everything" - how, pray tell, is that in any way worse than the existing mindset of "ONE BUILD MASTER RACE, ALL OTHERS ARE WASTES OF FORMA"? Or the related one that claims every gun needs 6+ forma anyway just to fit said "godly build"? You tell me.

 

As for "resource mismanagement", "OCD crap"... you're treading the line of personal attack there. Might not want to do that. And really, it's also tantamount to claiming other playstyles are invalid. So what if some people like collecting things and building as many bits and pieces of gear up as possible? So what if some people don't? They should be equally viable approaches to playing the game. Without relying on broken systems to produce the most hyper-efficient mindless loot mill, but that's another matter.

[Thelonious]

I remember there being talk about letting you craft more then one of a single item at a time... can't remember where. I'm sure it was devstream something. But oh well, don't quote me on that. 

 

And as for your tendencies to forma gear.... hey, it's your hobby but... if you are having those problems, mate. The only one to blame is the person who stares back at you in the mirror. I mean, really, that's some OCD crap right there. 

 

And by your logic, since I disagree with your methods and style, I should think that because you might just have a massive resource mismanagement issue that you have no right to voice your opinions.

 

But I don't! I think you are perfectly fine voicing your opinion from atop your own tree-stump (like the one I am standing on) and I reserve the right to think you wrong! :3 But in any case, good luck with your weapons. Last I heard there's like... 200+ something of them. Enjoy~

 

(Also, this rum isn't half bad!) 

 

About the multiple crafts at the same time, it's supposed to come with Foudry 2.0. Soon.

For now, only one per day. When it comes It'll just take me less days to max out my gear.

 

Btw, killing stuff, getting different weapons to kill stuff with, and then making them better to kill faster, are kinda the only things there is to do in this game.

I like doing all of it. Sue me.

 

Also, casual. I'm running on Vodka.

[Lakais]

Honestly, see, the thing is... I'm trying to find a way to ensure that more playstyles will benefit equally. Again, the point is - freedom and fun before everything else.

 

Again, I maintain that the situation with new/old players is precisely the opposite of what you suggest. I do not want newbies to have a learning experience that involves believing they have to focus on one build and one build alone because to do otherwise is a waste of forma they literally do not have the playtime or the resources to stockpile. It's not even about grinding vs. not grinding. It's about not giving people bad habits - "minmax because it's the most economical use of forma/potatoes" is an extremely common mindset early on.

 

You're effectively suggesting that people should be forced to grind simply to have what the mod system was meant to give them in the first place - customizability. So what if older players can queue up ten of them in a row? So be it. If they want to superforma every single gun in the game ten times for the sake of having done it, that's their absurd dedication to hoarding. Fine.

 

And this "mindset of wanting to 10-forma everything" - how, pray tell, is that in any way worse than the existing mindset of "ONE BUILD MASTER RACE, ALL OTHERS ARE WASTES OF FORMA"? Or the related one that claims every gun needs 6+ forma anyway just to fit said "godly build"? You tell me.

 

As for "resource mismanagement", "OCD crap"... you're treading the line of personal attack there. Might not want to do that. And really, it's also tantamount to claiming other playstyles are invalid. So what if some people like collecting things and building as many bits and pieces of gear up as possible? So what if some people don't? They should be equally viable approaches to playing the game. Without relying on broken systems to produce the most hyper-efficient mindless loot mill, but that's another matter.

I simply do not see that having standard formas give you "freeform" polarity slots (I'm gonna stick with this one for now) as a good thing. DE did not implement polarities on mod cards just for giggles. There is a plan there, an idea and I think that a normal forma that is relatively easy to get completely undermining this larger system is not going to work out to their plans. And I also think that too much freedom with certain things is also harmful at times. 

 

I answer your question with a question: What makes you think that just because they can toss any whatever mod they think is lulzy at the moment on their build that they will not eventually boil down to these same old cookiecutter builds?

 

Yeah they can go with this or that, but in the end, these builds haven't evolved out of nothing. There is a reason behind them, a math that can't be denied. And the only thing that stops a person from going down that road is not if their forma slot will magically switch polarities but if the alternatives are of equal or greater benefit from their point of view. 

I am not completely against having this sort of Freeform polarities. What I am against is them being relatively cheap and easy to get. A standard forma should function like it functions, no change needed. There are a few mods that people consider "essential" regardless of what you, me or anyone else thinks. And their polarity is always a known value. If you want that super-polarity, then that MUST cost extra. The noble cause of simplified experimentation will not stop people from using these optimal builds. Those who really, truly do care about their builds this much, will go down that road of mods regardless of how the system works. And from my point of view, those that aren't as stuck in their builds and experiment are those that can't be bothered to forma everything for maximum efficiency and power. 

 

And I was merely responding to someone honestly. I was being called out for not putting myself into a position where I went out of my way for every weapon that ever passed through my tenno's hands. And I merely voiced my opinion that I see no reason why I should do that in the first place if I don't want to. I think what he says has merit. But I don't agree with it and made it known.

Admittedly I should of used better words. But then I remembered that one skit about getting offended. 

 

 

About the multiple crafts at the same time, it's supposed to come with Foudry 2.0. Soon.

For now, only one per day. When it comes It'll just take me less days to max out my gear.

 

Btw, killing stuff, getting different weapons to kill stuff with, and then making them better to kill faster, are kinda the only things there is to do in this game.

I like doing all of it. Sue me.

 

Also, casual. I'm running on Vodka.

Polish or Ukranian vodka, or it's swill. Not being political, just some of the best ones made come from there from experience.

 

And I like to imagine I am on my own personal storyline quests. Your way is just as valid as any other. Proosit.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Lakais

[Sines314]

The issue here comes down to whether we want Diablo 2 customization, or Diablo 3 customization. Do we want to lock people down into a build, or do we want to allow them to unlock new options to use at will? Non-polarized forma slots (or universal polarity) lets you power up gear without commiting to a build path, making it more Diablo 3 style (not the best metaphor, but most people will know what I'm talking about). The current system is more Diablo 2 style, forcing you to specialize.

 

However, the rest of the game is very Diablo 3 style. In Diablo 2, if you wanted to try out a different kind of character, you had to start over from level 1. However, you would be playing the different character almost immediately. Your trap assassin would play different from your martial arts assassin within the first few levels.

 

Contrast how warframes specialize. Lets say you have one copy of frame X for one build, and it's too specialized to run Y build. However, it's not until several forma into making the Y build (and the Reactor and the frame itself, which can be very hard to obtain), that it starts to outperform the X build. Further, warframe builds tend to function only as finished products, whereas different builds in Diablo 2 fulfill more or less their ultimate function around 30-50, at which point you have plenty of time to continue getting experience with the base functionality complete build all set. However, once a frame build is met, you've stopped leveling it entirely.

 

On top of all that, it's not easy getting new frames. Sure, I could make 4 embers if I wanted to, but for Mesa? That'd be a pain to build another copy of her. And if I wanted extra Limbo or Mirage, I'd have to buy them from the store. This is a lot harder than the "Menu -> New Character -> Assassin" process of starting my Trap Assassin in D2.

 

Warframe is built around opening up your options and allowing max versatility once fully powered up, not in narrowing down to a specific role. It is much closer to the D3 approach to customization, wherein once you have every class at 70, you've got all your options (barring specific legendary items) ready on the table. But once I have one of every frame fully forma'd to fit a build... I still have to maybe make extra copies of frames and forma them too to have every option on the table.

 

For this reason, the build locking of high forma builds just doesn't fit with Warframe's gameplay. It also stifles out trying new builds, as you have to go a LONG way to obtaining the frame parts, and the 3-4 forma it takes to play at all differently. Trying out different builds 'just to see' simply isn't an option. Non-polarity locked forma slots would change that. Likewise, players who don't want to commit won't hold back on spending forma because they're not sure what they want to do. They'd spend forma (and the time to relevel the frame) freely, since they don't need to decide they like something before they can use it.

[FelisImpurrator]

 

It's not about making people build or not build a certain way... it's about having the choice to build a different way, without having to jump through twice as many hoops to do so.

 

You still haven't answered WHY you think this is a bad thing. What does it take away that was actually there in the first place? "Must", you say, with no justification. Yes, the mods themselves need reworking so that other options are just as viable as the "essentials". That's a different subject for a different thread. Other than mods themselves having problems, I really don't see the issue with having more freedom of choice in the slightest.

 

"Those that aren't stuck in their builds and experiment are those that can't be bothered to forma everything for maximum efficiency and power"? So why are you paradoxically suggesting that the ability to experiment should involve more grinding for forma? Because you think it should be easier to get to the boring cookie-cutter builds and stay there than to branch out, for... some reason you have yet to elaborate on?

 

What is the issue, really? The idea of straight upgrades existing past the bare minimum? Not wanting newvies to get something? Not wanting veterans to get something? I'm not seeing anything beyond "I don't like it, I want it to be more grindy for some unfathomable reason and it doesn't really matter to me because the grind doesn't affect me anyway..."

 

As for the wording, it's not about causing offense so much as drawing the attention of wild banhammers. They lurk in the tall grass, like Pokemon.

 

Yes. This. Great Cthulhu, you got it in one. It doesn't fit with Warframe's structure, is the main issue. It doesn't fit with the entire basic concept of tying progression to mods you can put on and take off at will as opposed to giving you base stats that scale and fixed pieces of gear.

 

I'm reminded of a huge change recently made in another game, Marvel Heroes. They decided to make power respecs free forever, whereas previously they were tied to a rare item. The game is effectively Diablo with superheroes, made by many of the D2 devs... but they ultimately chose to go the D3 building route you're describing. Why? Because they didn't want people sticking to the cookie-cutter forever due to the prohibitive cost of branching out. And to some extent, it works. There are still crap skills and awful builds, but all in all, there's a lot more variation and innovation in the metagame than there was before the update. The meta there is healthier than it is here, because it has more flexibility... and more viable options. We need both. Because right now, Warframe's meta mainly consists of building for the optimum ability to sit on a box and let Homer's drinking bird (to paraphrase... one of the devs) play the game for you.

 

Instead of having "minmax OR have fun and experiment", why not both? Bring them in line. Let them coexist without kilometer-high hurdles and layers upon layers of grind/RNG/timewall created solely to slow that process down.

 

And on the subject of not wanting to commit - I still don't want to put my fourth forma on Soma Prime, because I don't know what I want to put on it. For that matter, I don't know if an experimental build that isn't the maximized DPS cookie-cutter will work, because I don't have the slots to just move things around until I have something worth testing. Just as an example, and that's only one part of my "core fallback" weapons that won't be destroyed when I finally max my mods. My real favorites, I tend to be even more indecisive about - because the last thing I want is for them to become boring, one-trick ponies. The D polarity may be useless on weapons outside of cold, but I don't remove it because there might be new mods; aura polarities may often come as V or D, but I keep them in case something like Ash's Bladestorm buff happens. But it's not a satisfying, in-game decision on whether to be economical or versatile - it's a meta-decision that goes "Do I forma it out now or hold out for the chance of a future update making it useful?"

[Omnimorph]

Definitely moveable polarities.  Derpy slots are derpy (especially on weapons).

 

The others: underclocking is a pretty good idea too.

 

I think there are always going to be "essential" mods though - that's why I always thought they should have a utility slot.  I think that in terms of design the system is actually largely fine, it just needs some QOL changes like being able to shuffle polarity slots around positionally.

[Sines314]

Two things. First off, I really hope the only reason underclocking isn't a thing is because it's a programming issue. I can't think of any gameplay reason why it shouldn't be so (nor any real money making reason, I don't think people with multiple ranks of corrupted mods paid for those with Fusion Core plat packs). But programming can be tricky, and I can imagine that safely making the change (without accidentally leaving your R10 Blind Rage permanently at R4 again) might take more programmer time than they're willing to spare at the moment. I'd love to see it, as I pretty much avoid leveling up my corrupted mods any further. Not to mention, it would also make leveling forma'd weapons easier, without having to keep several differently level copies of Serration and the like lying around.

 

Also, I was wondering if making Utility mods just cheaper in general would be a good idea. This would (partially) solve the high cost of actually using the Exilus slot, and why shouldn't they be cheaper? After all, is Rush really worth 11 points? The Exilus slot was created because people didn't think those kinds of mod were worth a slot at all. What if it were only worth 5, without polarity? People still wouldn't use it in high-end builds, but why not let cheap support skills exist to fill in the holes in the builds of newby or freshly-forma'd frames? The cost of the slot alone is the big part of the cost. I see no need to make me also choose between equipping Rush or, say, Redirection, because I don't have the mod points for both either.

[FelisImpurrator]

Definitely moveable polarities.  Derpy slots are derpy (especially on weapons).

 

The others: underclocking is a pretty good idea too.

 

I think there are always going to be "essential" mods though - that's why I always thought they should have a utility slot.  I think that in terms of design the system is actually largely fine, it just needs some QOL changes like being able to shuffle polarity slots around positionally.

Mm. No take on unlocked forma? I honestly consider it QoL - no more permanently screwing up a piece of gear, or being locked into one direction in a way that's completely contrary to the spirit of a freeform upgrade-slot system. If you can't stop there from being "must-have" mods, you can work around that, lessen the impact, by at least not having One Build to Rule Them All.

[Lakais]

 

Because it oversimplifies it.

 

Not to mention, as fun as experimentation is, each piece of gear has, by their very design a role intended to them with fixed base stats that dictate what something is good at or not. A frame with very little armor can't be made into an effective tank simply because the base stats will not allow it. Element damage weapon can not have physical damage attributes added on. 

Mods only enhance already existing properties. With exception to the few that actually give new properties (enemy radar and exploding arrows for example). 

 

If every forma allowed you to have a freeform polarity, then the concept of polarities itself is completely undermined and basically removed. That means that vanilla polarities, ones pre-installed will also be completely obsolete. Too much convenience. It sounds weird, I know. But I do think that making it too simple, too easy, will not help make the system more interesting. Most of these underused mods, even if buffed, will most likely not become much more then novelties. 

 

Again. I have nothing against freeform polarity spots IF and only IF it comes with further substantial investment on top of the standard forma or instead of it. It's nothing more then convenience with a sprinkling of power. And at some point you have to pay for both. 

 

Do I think new players should have to worry about it? No. They have other worries like how to unlock planets or get enough credits and materials to make their gear. Yes, formas and potatoes included in the oft-chance they get them. But that should, in my opinion, be the least of their worries. They have the option to go for those upgrades, and the choice is theirs. 

Do I think older players should have to worry about it? if they want to, yes. 

 

I simply do not see this as necessary. I won't stop playing if it gets implemented. I won't fly over the Atlantic with a pitchfork and a torch nor make a thread about it. But I don't think making everything too simple creates long lasting interest. 

[FelisImpurrator]

I really hope the only reason underclocking isn't a thing is because it's a programming issue.

I seem to remember hearing that DE was talking about doing precisely this at one point. So it may indeed be that; hopefully, it gets implemented one day anyway.

 

You think it's too simple... so your response is to make it harder and more expensive, "something expensive enough to give even veterans a hard time" - if you want the slightest shred of build flexibility you either don't forma your gear or stack compound-grind to the ceiling for it? Because that won't produce any lasting interest either, because most players wouldn't even bother with the cost the way it is. A lot of people won't even bother with Exilus not because it's too expensive, but because all the extra forma it takes to fit a mod there alongside their existing builds will lock them out of other builds later. I stated it wasn't about power - it isn't about convenience either - but apparently that point is being repeatedly missed or just not acknowledge.

 

Item stats dictate roles? Sure they do. But some roles involve totally different mods for different configs. If for instance I want to build up my Nova Prime, without Exilus there's a build that just barely fits both Slow and Speed with bad-slot juggling. Which is great. But then Exilus comes along, and... it's basically unusable because the build is packed. So I add another polarity... but wait. If I put on the wrong ons, or there just aren't enough mods/polarities in common between my two builds, I can only use one while sacrificing the other. What should I do then? Build, Exilus, and forma two or three Nova Primes? I hardly think that's a solution that should even be seriously considered. Particularly if you replace that with "Limbo" or "Mirage" or "Mesa".

 

It's also far too late - new players already do worry about getting the most out of their tiny quantities of rare resources and forma, to a massive degree. It's an issue, whether you've noticed it or not.

 

If it's really such a big deal for you to want more hoops to jump through, how about this. Moderately-priced (resource-wise, although it could cost at least one forma), reusable BP, but with a long craft time, that lets you respec your polarities... on a specific configuration slot. Plus more config slots than A/B/C.