Improving Cqc (Ver 2.0)

[ENIAK_Prime]

A while back, I posted a topic that covered a list of things that I felt were necessary to make Close Quarters Combat (aka "Melee Only") better, and bring it to a state that I perceived to be the end-goal of what melee should be like in WarFrame.

It is now located in the archives here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/383694-ideas-for-improving-cqc/
 

Now that Stamina has been removed from the game entirely in favor of a new mechanic, it's time to rework some of those ideas, and even add some new ones in light of some of the new changes that have been made.

... but I can't do that since it's in the archives, so I'll just post this instead.

Without further ado, I'll restate the ideas I want to keep from the old thread in case the old one ever gets deleted, but first I'll address some new ideas I had.

1. THE "COVERAGE" MECHANIC.
Here's an idea I propose to make Guarding even more effective (which is to say, make it remain effective well into high-end content). The idea? Add a "Coverage" mechanic that revolves around 3 statistics.

 

Coverage Threshold - This statistic determines the maximum number of enemies who can be actively attacking your guard before your Blocking Power drops from 100%. This statistic would be the same for all weapons within the same type, meaning all dual swords would have the same threshold.
Coverage Durability - Coverage Durability determines how much your Blocking Power falls when your situation surpasses the Coverage Threshold.
Blocking Power - This is a universal stat that is an inherent part of the gameplay and not displayed in weapon stats. It determines how much damage reduction is being applied to incoming attacks. It always starts at 100%.

NOTE: Ideally, Threshold would be determined by the weapon type and not need to be mentioned, so the Coverage stat on the weapons' stat pages would only cover Durability.

 

Coverage affects blocking power by determining how much punishment you can handle before you've officially bitten off more than you can chew. This is determined by comparing Coverage to the number of enemies actively attacking you at any given time. Weapons with low coverage like the Single Daggers can only handle blocking attacks from two or three enemies at once, for example. Once more enemies begin to join into the battle, the Single Dagger's blocking power goes down, and you start taking tiny bits of damage even while guarding. The Blocking Power continues to go down as the numbers rise.

Comparatively, a weapon like Silva and Aegis would be able to maintain 100% blocking power against a larger squad, making it a tankier weapon and greater for being in the thick of battle against larger groups of enemies.

I'd also suggest the addition of mods that can increase Coverage, allowing Tanky weapons to be even tankier, and allowing not-so-tanky weapons to obtain some semblance of tankiness. Perhaps a regular Coverage increase mod, and then a channeling mod that drastically increases coverage in exchange for channeling efficiency.

 

2. MELEE "NOISE".
I know this is basically asking for a nerf, but I think it would make the game interesting. Include a "noise" mechanic for weapons that works the same way as it does for guns, so that there can be a distinction between stealthy melee weapons and NOT stealthy melee weapons. I would also, of course, suggest the addition of mods that can be used to reduce noise on Melee Weapons.

This idea came to me when I saw the "Covert Lethality" mod that was added to give daggers more use. One of the comments about it was that it was likely added to the game to give daggers a 'reason' to be used. If we add melee noise, then smaller weapons like the Dual Daggers and Single Daggers would have a decided advantage of being able to be used without alerting anyone.

And, honestly, I think Covert Lethality shouldn't even be in the game, because...

3. FINISHERS NEED TO -NEVER- FAIL.

There would be nothing. NOTHING overpowered about making finishers gauranteed KO's. To perform them in the first place you need to be stealthing along. And if you're playing stealth you're already "cheating" in terms of fair-play. Stealth is never fair. Don't pretend it is and don't try to make it be. Stealth is hard work and should be consistently rewarded with unfailing results. If I put in the time and effort to approach unseen, I should not be arbitrarily punished for not being "strong enough". Stealth is a tactic used to COMPENSATE A LACK OF STRENGTH. Please, do NOT make strength a requirement. Don't just increase the damage to 800%. Just. Make it. Flat out. Kill. Everything.

~~~~~END OF NEW BUSINESS~~~~~
Welp, now that I've covered the NEW stuff I wanted to talk about, I'm going to go back and talk about the old things I'm still pitchin'.

1. "ACTIVE BLOCKING" MECHANIC.
This is basically an idea that mitigates damage while the tenno is attacking with the weapon, explained as the Tenno's weapon swings blocking incoming attacks. This would be easy to add into the game by making it an extension of the previously mentioned "Coverage" mechanic, by simply having Coverage active at all times while in CQC mode, and then simply reduce the Coverage while attacking (which stacks with increasing numbers of active assailants).
 

2. CHANGE "ROLL" FUNCTION IN CQC MODE TO "DASH".
I suggest adding a new "Dash" function that replaces rolling when the player engages CQC mode (putting away your guns to go full melee badass). The dash would be a short-ranged, lightning-fast horizontal leap that allows the player to very quickly close small gaps to approach enemies (think Excalibur's new Slash Dash, without the auto-attack). The dash would count as a high-speed Tenno maneuver and lower the accuracy of enemies targetting the player. On top of this, a spinning attack could be performed while dashing that would be the visual equivalent of a standing version of the spinning slide attack, and use the same attack modifier for damage. Ideally, the Dash Attack would benefit from BOTH the evasive property of high-speed maneuvers, AND the Active Blocking mechanic. I don't believe this would be overpowered, but if deemed necessary I would suggest "balancing" this by adding a "cooldown" that disallows too many dashes in a row.

EDIT: Maybe even have the roll function be something unique depending on the frame being used, as per: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/562623-warframe-specific-dodge-maneuvers/

 

3. THE RETURN OF CHARGE ATTACKS.
... simple as that! Charge Attacks AND Channeling! Why have either/or when you can have both? They use completely different commands that don't clash with other inputs, so why not? Also, if charging IS brought back, do NOT make them auto-release at full charge. Tenno are principled masters of patience. There is no reason they shouldn't be able to decide when to unleash the beast (MegaMan-Style).

4. MORE FINISHERS!
This is a topic so in-depth I dedicated a whole separate thread for it!
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/504667-finish-him-finishers-20/

Edited November 19, 2015 by Soldatto

[(PSN)BrutalReaper32]

Nice Ideas m8! xD
I'm a big fan of hack n slash games, so your ideas would be a pretty nice addition to the game :D
I would love to see even more things too:
Things like:

-The ability to perfect block anything (I mean, if you block just right before getting hit) 
*if you perfect block a bullet you can return it (with the same damage
*if you block a melee attack the enemy will get stunned
-The ability to send the enemies to the air for a moment (like most of hack n slash games) Then we should be able ot perform air combos e.e

-The Dash thing you said was pretty amazing, and I would like that if you use a dash while channeling you snap vanish a couple of meters (even behind the enemy) 
-I would like that if you deal too much damage to an enemy without beign hit by him or performing a good combo you had the chance to use a finisher on him if you hold the melee button.
I don't know but, I would also like to have a different camera (optional) if I decide to go full melee to see incoming bullets, rockets, etc... 

Also, to have even better fights with melee weapons I would like to have enemies that have the same skills we could have with this (the enemies should try different combos, perfect block our attacks, snap vanish or dash around us, etc...)

I would also add a bar that fills with combos with a high amount of hits, when that bar gets filled we could be able to deal more damage, randomly finish of some enemies, unlimited amount of dashes and beign able to block more. (it would last a couple of seconds) 

I think your ideas are amazing bro! ^^
I'm really waiting for a better melee combat system :D
 

[RandOm3]

We also need quick time events for bosses

 

It will run in real time of course, creating space for your pals to rekt the boss.

To balance this we may need to buff up every one of them in abit of defense and make it lethal to fail it.

 

 

This is full of yolo

[ENIAK_Prime]

Nice Ideas m8! xD

I'm a big fan of hack n slash games, so your ideas would be a pretty nice addition to the game :D

I would love to see even more things too:

Things like:

-The ability to perfect block anything (I mean, if you block just right before getting hit) 

*if you perfect block a bullet you can return it (with the same damage

*if you block a melee attack the enemy will get stunned

-The ability to send the enemies to the air for a moment (like most of hack n slash games) Then we should be able ot perform air combos e.e

-The Dash thing you said was pretty amazing, and I would like that if you use a dash while channeling you snap vanish a couple of meters (even behind the enemy) 

-I would like that if you deal too much damage to an enemy without beign hit by him or performing a good combo you had the chance to use a finisher on him if you hold the melee button.

I don't know but, I would also like to have a different camera (optional) if I decide to go full melee to see incoming bullets, rockets, etc... 

Also, to have even better fights with melee weapons I would like to have enemies that have the same skills we could have with this (the enemies should try different combos, perfect block our attacks, snap vanish or dash around us, etc...)

I would also add a bar that fills with combos with a high amount of hits, when that bar gets filled we could be able to deal more damage, randomly finish of some enemies, unlimited amount of dashes and beign able to block more. (it would last a couple of seconds) 

I think your ideas are amazing bro! ^^

I'm really waiting for a better melee combat system :D

We can already do perfect-blocking to an extent. It's that whole parry-system (which is actually really fun. You should try it!). It doesn't have any effect on bullets but I think that'd be difficult to emulate. In the meantime you can always wear a Reflection mod for that sweet bullet-returning.

Aside from that you've got a lot of crazy awesome ideas here! You should put up a suggestion, man. :V

[Lukap99]

+1 for cuhrayzee melee mode

[WolvenEdge]

I like where you're going with this, but I do have a few critiques.

 

I; coverage.

I posted some stat suggestions in another forum page, but I'll copy them over just to show my logic here as well;

 

...

Where's the other thread?

Ah well. I'll just rework the logic, without the actual numbers.

Sword and board will be the best at blocking, unless they introduce a weaponized shield that has no sword at all. When blocking; shield wins, no surprise. It would be capable of blocking fire from several opponents before having its threshold passed, and would have a minimal decay in defensive efficiency. So, something along the lines of 5/1%. So you can block five enemies' fire without breaking a sweat with sword&board, and more enemies will not bother you too much.

A dagger doesn't have much length, so coverage would kind of suck. You'd be able to easily block one enemy's firing line, but more than that would cause you to have to speed your motion up something fierce... but that's something Tenno can do, and the dagger is light enough for this to make some sense, therefore, something along the lines of 1/2%. One  enemy? No problem! More enemies? Meh. You won't take much damage from more enemies because the weapon is light enough to move swiftly and change direction quickly, allowing you, at slightly reduced efficiency, to still block the incoming fire.

A greatsword... well, it's bigger. It has the length and capacity for half-swording (a blocking animation I really, REALLY want to see, by the way) that would enable it to be moved in a way that would allow blocking multiple opponents' fire, to an extent. But the downside; it's bloody heavy. Sure, a Tenno is capable of twirling it around easily enough, but as for changing direction and forcing it to move quickly, your own weapon would become a disadvantage as to the stress of overcoming its momentum. You can do it, but it will damage you a bit too, essentially cracking your own bones from the force of your movement. Having 50-cal rounds bouncing off the blade at the same time isn't going to help the issue, ouch. So, say, 3/8%. Three enemies' fire can be blocked with effort, but any more, and the damage starts racking up, though it's still better than trying to use a greathammer. >w>

 

That kind of logic would not be all that hard to apply, and would even work with the current processing ability that blocking uses, and not cause undue lag in lower-end systems.

 

II; Melee noise

Oog.... ouch. I can see where you're coming from, but would suggest making it the player's fault should the weapon make noise. >:3 One is entirely capable of using a greatsword stealthily and silently, if one is careful with it. Stealth kills should always be silent...  and melee going through its intended target silently would echo the Tenno's philosophies and training quite well... however, larger weapons are still a bit, well, clumsier than small ones. Harder to control. Having a weapon glide through an enemy silently is no problem, that was the intended target and would naturally come under Tenno training... but the wall to your left that you accidentally nicked in the backswing? Ooh yeah, that's gonna make some noise. If you're attacking walls, you're going to attract enemy notice. This would be both a boon and a curse, as you could, say, use a dagger against a pipe to attract an enemy's attention, then step into the shadows and execute the hapless trooper that came to investigate the strange noise, while trying to spin carelessly down the hallway with your Gram would definitely attract some attention, because you're being stupid from a stealth standpoint.

TL;DR, hit enemy should be silent, hit wall make noise. :P

 

III; Punishing finishers.

I like, but that would require even MORE work on Excalibur, Ash, and Loki, as they're capable of forcing enemies into vulnerable states. I get that it's their design, but that would become a bit overpowered in certain circumstances. I do get the perspective of risk vs. reward, and the stealth multiplier should be higher... actually, scrap what I was going to say, I have a better idea.

How about we separate 'stunned/opened' status from 'Y I NO C U?' status? Keep roughly the same current multiplier for stunned enemies, and have actual stealth finishers be always lethal as in the OP. That way, Excalibur is still balanced, Loki and Ash can still do their thing, and stealth would open up a little further as a viable play option, which it honestly hasn't been for a while. It's doable, sort of... so long as you never encounter a Drahk, or a Nullifier, or a sniper of any kind, or stay still for more than thirty secons, or.... yeah. We need a stealth 2.0, and this should be part of it. Anyone care to open a thread on the matter?

 

IV (1B); coverage while swinging melee

Hmm. Tough one. Gives me a Lego Star Wars vibe, which I do like, but... that's ... hmm. I can't really put this lightly.

Dark souls_____WarFrame____________________________________________Lego Star Wars

On the difficulty/punishment scale, WarFrame has a tendancy to be pretty harsh when you do something dumb. Like trying to last two hours in T4 Survival by yourself. Yeah, EVERYTHING can one-shot you by then, and if you're surviving, you're either cheesing, cheating, or both. :P Lego Star Wars was made the opposite of punishing. It's made for little ones to enjoy for the gameplay, and older fans of the series to enjoy for the comedy, therefore the comedy contains both whimsy and slight adult references, and the gameplay is designed to be painfully easy unless you're a completionist. I get where you're coming from, I really do, but this would make melee mode TOO easy, at least from where I'm sitting. We can block bullets with swords, yes, but having a bullet aimed at my head be deflected by me swinging at some poor schmuck's feet with my greatsword? Rather immersion breaking, sorry. XwX

However, I would even endorse the idea of a % of the damage of the target you are currently aiming at was blocked when you're attacking, as that would fit the Tenno's training concepts, (and the concepts of many martial arts in the idea of attack and defense in the same motion) and enable melee mode a bit more in an open setting. That nut shooting at you? Aim at him while running, it will help if he shoots at you. It's the equivalent of a 'soft lock' I suppose, and would enable, in some ways, defense to an extent against one enemy and an attack against another. Might be too much to keep track of for some players, and even leave a fair portion of it up to luck (but no RNG! Huzzah!), but it would still be doable. Advanced players would be able to take advantage of it, and earlier/less obsessed not as hardcore players wouldn't have their gameplay change in any meaningful way.

 

V (2B); No melee roll, replace with dash

Uh.... I see where you're going with this, but would like to stop you there. We already have a 'dash' of sorts, the bullet jump. With practice, you can bullet jump horizontally (I rather like doing so, it enables me to swing past enemies with my greatsword and leave lots of meaty bits falling around) and transition into aerial attack. Once mastered, it's quite smooth, and deals a fair portion of damage upon any foe, many weapons even hit twice or three times in this animation (see daggers, polearms). I can see where you want to go with this, and allow me to point something out that would allow for something of what you're thinking even without depriving melee users of the entirely useful roll.

First; a couple notes on the roll in its current state. Since the parkour release, rolling has changed a little bit. It now covers about half again the distance it used to, and can be used for swift acceleration. It also does not decelerate a Tenno who uses it to transition from flying from wall to wall or out of a bullet jump. You can even use it to pick up some impressive speed (even without any parkour augment mods) by roll->slide->bulletJump->roll->bulletJump->roll->bulletJump.

That speed happens to be a number in WarFrame's code. >:3 What say we take advantage of that, shall we? Rolling builds up a bit of speed all on its own, which would make it quite viable to have its own attack animations, ergo; a roll-attack. This might seem a bit Dark Souls-esque to some of you, but hear me out. What say we take that lovely number that equates to the speed we are moving, and through a little bit of mathematical magic turn that into a multiplier for damage dealt with the roll attack, similar to the video clip on the entrance to the Balor Fomorian, where the Tenno hurtles off the Archwing, flips and rolls a few times and then lands weapons-ready... but let's change that a bit. He's using a Nikana, so, how about he transfers that momentum into actual attack power? He flips once, hurtling toward his unfortunate foe, rolls, uses the sheath as a springboard and spins sideways in the air with the blade held outward, gracefully landing two vertical slashes against the hapless trooper, leaving only shreds of meat and scrap metal behind.

Transferring momentum into damage could even be used in other animations as well, and would add to the effectiveness of melee, helping to bridge the gap between melee damage and primary weapon damage, and further integrating parkour into the game, especially for melee players. You'd be able to roll and then attack, dealing a little more than a standard attack, but still having the effect of closing on a foe quickly and tearing them a new one. Or you could, say, from further away, jump off a zipline, bullet jump downwars (yes, that's a thing you can do. You can have the bullet jump be the second jump of your two), roll out of a high-speed dive and unleash a powerful speed-enforced blow. ^w^ Would certainly take some practice, but is entirely doable.

 

VI (3b); Return of the Charge Attack

Yes, YES! All of my yes. this has been needed for a while. ^w^ This would, however, require the rework of several stances, as the 'hold x' combo would no longer be capable of use. I would suggest that many of the animations currently available are entirely useable as charge attacks, even from the middle of a combo, and would act as both a combo interrupt and a method of taking advantage of stuns in the combos themselves, granting more options, along the lines of the musical rhythm-based combos in El Shaddai; Ascension of the Metatron. Each stance should have its own charge attack, as an example of this, for those of us who have Tempo Royale, the 'hold backwards attack' combo, where you sort of hover for a bit and then smash everything would be absolutely perfect to move to the charge attack, and have the 'hold X' combo replace it. Just a little bit of moving around, maybe one or two new animations, that's it. ^w^ Entirely doable, and would add another dimension to combat that doesn't intrude on any other mechanic or control, allowing you to chain heavy and light attacks back and forth easily. Perfect for the oddly-abrupt-yet-flowing movements the Tenno stances already display.

And yes, this would be 'recycling animations'. I don't see what the problem with this is at all, other than that many seem oddly opposed to it. It's efficient, doesn't waste work, and, even if it's just a placeholder, gets the concept out there so that it can be used by the players and tested/critiqued. Hek, sometimes the placeholder is even better than the intended full version, and just gets tweaked a little bit. I'm rather tired of hearing accusations of 'lazy' from people who neither animate nor code. >:\ You have to input code for every frame. @w@ EVERY FRAME. You have to rig, animate, tag, and code every single frame, often individually. A good animation for a single actor that lasts two minutes can take weeks to make, much less integrate into a game. You have to take into account physics, the biology of...

               And at this point, the young wolf went into a long diatribe about animating and programming, that no-one would understand anyway, and would take up much room in a post that was already longer than some legal documents. I really don't see where he gets the energy. He's reall--

Shut up, Narrator, I'm getting tired of this. D:< You had your way with my characters and ideas in the Stanley Parable, and though I liked the adventure line, you really, really need to--

               Oh shut up yourself. This is likely going to be lost on the audience anyway, could you just ca--

Calm down. Yes. -w- Can you just... leave? Please? You already know what I'm doing.

               Yes, attempting to reward readers for making it this far with a bit of metaposting humor. It's really a rather sad attempt, much like your sojourn in the broom closet.

That broom closet had a lot of interesting stuff. =w= Pardon me, I think you get my points.

 

Your ideas are great, just in need of a bit of refinement and some brainstorming on how to get them into the game without causing too many ripples. We're after buffing/balancing and adding mechanics in the game that make more playstyles viable, not less. In the case of damage reduction via percent, this actually both validates a new playstyle and adds in a new one, both based around blocking. The first is based on a relatively popular build for high-armor frames that have health problems or low shields; life strike/Rage. Imagine mixing this with Reflection, and a couple mods that would enable you to take advantage of the fact that you're still eating damage through your guard? You'd be eating their health, restoring your own, and generating the energy to do this all in one fell swoop via channel-blocking. It would be like a Jedi Guardian fully trained in the defensive style of Soresu; nothing would get through, and your opponents would only be hurting themselves trying to attack you. ^w^ The second is the Towar, or Bulwark, turning blocking into an art, becoming nigh-untouchable force on the battlefield, opening his guard only long enough to unleash potent attacks. This could be accomplished with a pair of mods that would naturally be introduced in this, and the Counter mod. Enabling you to just plant your feet, block all incoming damage, and just punish that one that gets too close, big time.

 

I've gushed enough on this, I really like the ideas. I hope I've added some valuable feedback, and maybe a few laughs. Sorry for the wall o' text. XwX

[ENIAK_Prime]

I like where you're going with this, but I do have a few critiques.

 

-snip-

 

Sorry for the wall o' text. XwX

It's DE who should be sorry. ANY OTHER FORUM would have the very simple and common tools needed for me to break down quotes with VERY SIMPLE bbc code and make very neat looking point-by-point replies. DE chose not to do this for no conceivable reason.

Anyway I like the big wall of text. I'm gonna try to reply to every point of it, too.

PART-1: COVERAGE SYSTEM.

The other thread? I requested it be deleted by the mods since I was reworking it here in this thread.

As for your ideas for how each weapon type would work, I agree completely, although I'm not sure about the exact numbers. I imagine if DE picks up the idea they'll figure out how to balance everything. I do agree SnS is the best at blocking and single daggers would be the absolute worst, though. Although quick, there is just too little surface area for actually blocking attacks. SnS has the bonus of having a large covering surface that is also easy to move around where needed. It is the undisputed king of Coverage.

PART-2: MELEE NOISE.

I agree that stealth attacks should still be silent. I'll make a note about that. But as far as wildly swinging the weapon in normal circumstances, a Gram should definitely not be silent otherwise.

PART-3: FINISHERS

Eeeeh I dunno. I really think that a finisher, ANY finisher, should instakill. In cases like Ash and Excalibur, you're casting energy. Roughly the amount of energy you'd use to kill a guy anyway, so I don't really see the harm letting them score the free kills.

In my honest opinion, the Finisher is meant to be a tool to use on heavy, high HP enemies like Grineer Heavy Gunners, Napalms and the like. It is the entire purpose of Finishers to give you a quick and efficient way of dealing with them. You don't actually need finishers to kill the little guys (although it helps your survival to take advantage of the sweet invincibility), but you DO need them to off the big guys. If your finishers aren't offing the big guys you might as well just spam powers, right (which is why everyone does it, notice).

PART-4: ACTIVE BLOCKING

The damage mitigation is meant to work like a lower form of the standard guard, meaning it only effects attacks coming from in front. So, no. I'm not asking for it to reduce damage from behind or anything.

All I'm saying is... the Tenno are like, crazy master swordsman. And I understand the whole point about "not doing dumb things". But this isn't about logic. It's about lore. And in lore, Tenno are crazy good master swordsmen with insane skill with the sword on the battlefield. While, yes, they are smart, this lore centers more around their sheer prowess on the field of battle. Able to run into enemy firing squads with nothing but their sword and come out with narry a scratch. The gameplay does NOT sync up with the lore in that regard. We need to fix that.

Yes. We NEED to fix that. I will say that. It is true. Does playing smart and not thrusting yourself into battle in hopes of being a badass make you feel smart and tactical? Yes. Is that good? Yes. Fine. Credit where credit is due.

Does that mean making it possible to run into a firing squad and slice them all up like a badass would be a bad idea? Not even remotely. So let's make it happen.

PART-5: DASH INSTEAD OF ROLL

Just... completely disagreed. I mean, I'm glad you LIKE the roll and all, but between you and me? I never use it. Ever. And honestly? Trying to work in some kind of weird roll attack just... does NOT... at all... sound even half as cool as a standing, swirling attack. It just doesn't, man. It just... doesn't.

PART-6: CONCLUSION

I appreciate the criticism (sort-of? I actually don't feel any particular way about it to be honest), but I'm PURPOSELY leaving the ideas a little freeform and open-ended. I'm giving DE a bit of freedom (not that they wouldn't be free to take it anyway) to tweak the ideas to work in their game however they need to. I'm keeping in mind that although I have some suggestions I'd like to see in the game, it's still their game and how they want to implement things is really up to them. Also, I really don't think I'm in a position that I can determine the exact specifics of how anything should be carried out.

[WolvenEdge]

It's DE who should be sorry. ANY OTHER FORUM would have the very simple and common tools needed for me to break down quotes >snip< and make very neat looking point-by-point replies. DE chose not to do this for no conceivable reason.

 

But... you can. D: It's just not bbe code. You have to press 'quote' a few more times and then edit the quote boxes as they show up to get the parts you want. I admit it's clumsy, and could use some improvement, but it does work.

 

PART-1: COVERAGE SYSTEM.

The other thread? I requested it be deleted by the mods since I was reworking it here in this thread.

As for your ideas for how each weapon type would work, I agree completely, although I'm not sure about the exact numbers. I imagine if DE picks up the idea they'll figure out how to balance everything. I do agree SnS is the best at blocking and single daggers would be the absolute worst, though. Although quick, there is just too little surface area for actually blocking attacks. SnS has the bonus of having a large covering surface that is also easy to move around where needed. It is the undisputed king of Coverage.

 

Why thank you. ^w^

 

PART-2: MELEE NOISE.

I agree that stealth attacks should still be silent. I'll make a note about that. But as far as wildly swinging the weapon in normal circumstances, a Gram should definitely not be silent otherwise.

 

Agreed. Most of what I've said on the matter comes from my own experiences with knives and swords; cutting meat is a lot quieter than trying to cut a wall. :P Though you do have a point when I'm considering enemy armor. Pardon the holes in my points, I didn't get much sleep last night... and nor will I tonight, by the looks of it.

 

PART-3: FINISHERS

Eeeeh I dunno. I really think that a finisher, ANY finisher, should instakill. In cases like Ash and Excalibur, you're casting energy. Roughly the amount of energy you'd use to kill a guy anyway, so I don't really see the harm letting them score the free kills.

In my honest opinion, the Finisher is meant to be a tool to use on heavy, high HP enemies like Grineer Heavy Gunners, Napalms and the like. It is the entire purpose of Finishers to give you a quick and efficient way of dealing with them. You don't actually need finishers to kill the little guys (although it helps your survival to take advantage of the sweet invincibility), but you DO need them to off the big guys. If your finishers aren't offing the big guys you might as well just spam powers, right (which is why everyone does it, notice).

 

Mm... again I have to point out the armor. If an opponent is simply stunned, they're still going to get their armor class vs. your sneak attack, but if you get them from behind and they don't even so much as know you're there, then you get to aim for the squishy bits. I do get what you're saying, but vs. higher level content, that amount of energy really wouldn't kill them, and, well, bosses are going to be immune to this already because they're mostly immune to crowd control (except Nerf, when he was around. I'll miss you, buddy. ;w;) and already know you're there. <w< Creepy jerks. I'd propose making it lethal on most units, or perhaps going the route a mod I use for Skyrim does; allow you to turn the extra armor against them in certain circumstances. Mag would be particularly good at this, say, finishers against stunned opponents now deal a percent of the target's armor as extra damage (most won't survive it, every now and then one will, which fits. No matter how skilled you are, there will always be room for error), while stealth finishers kill outright. >:3 Take that, Bombard. The lower-level units don't need the extra damage, the higher-level stuff does, and the higher-level stuff will have more armor for you to turn into spikes sticking into them with your dagger's skilled slashes and stabs.

 

I admit I'm mostly brainstorming at this point, trying to find an idea that both works quite well and doesn't completely break certain playstyles by making them either too good or unplayable. I do agree that power spam is a bit of a problem, but I think DE found a way to work that a little. I've noticed that energy doesn't seem to be dropping as often... maybe I'm just imagining things. Ever since Excal's rework, I can't resist flying around with the slash dash and just tearing things up with absurdly high melee counters. (Current personal record is almost 200. ^w^ I was happy that day.)

 

PART-4: ACTIVE BLOCKING

The damage mitigation is meant to work like a lower form of the standard guard, meaning it only effects attacks coming from in front. So, no. I'm not asking for it to reduce damage from behind or anything.

All I'm saying is... the Tenno are like, crazy master swordsman. And I understand the whole point about "not doing dumb things". But this isn't about logic. It's about lore. And in lore, Tenno are crazy good master swordsmen with insane skill with the sword on the battlefield. While, yes, they are smart, this lore centers more around their sheer prowess on the field of battle. Able to run into enemy firing squads with nothing but their sword and come out with narry a scratch. The gameplay does NOT sync up with the lore in that regard. We need to fix that.

Yes. We NEED to fix that. I will say that. It is true. Does playing smart and not thrusting yourself into battle in hopes of being a badass make you feel smart and tactical? Yes. Is that good? Yes. Fine. Credit where credit is due.

Does that mean making it possible to run into a firing squad and slice them all up like a badass would be a bad idea? Not even remotely. So let's make it happen.

 

... Touche. Though I must ask; do shields and the ability to quickly heal themselves count as 'without a scratch'? I kinda feel bad for running the 'Immortal Engine' (life strike + rage) now... I like being a berserker, even though I try to be tactical when I can. I suppose that makes me some kind of rogue/barbarian/soulknife gestalt. >w< And that didn't seem needlessly complicated before now, no.

Excal's my main, and yes. I run in with my Galatine, my Exalted Blade and Slash Dash, and there is no more firing squad. There is red mush with scrap that vaguely resembles what might have been armor or robotics at one point. I completely get where that bada55 feeling comes in, and I love the hek out of it. But there does come a point where one encounters enemies who have similar skills to your own, and then... well, the usual rules don't apply so much. I loved my first fight with the stalker. All I had was my first Excalibur unit, I hadn't even painted it, a single Lato, which I oddly enough used more than the Braton. It was a fight for the ages. @w@ Which I lost because the cheapscate one-shot me with his at-the-time overpowered slash dash. I was just happy because I'd survived about two minutes and chipped away about half his health before he got mad and squished me.

 

PART-5: DASH INSTEAD OF ROLL

Just... completely disagreed. I mean, I'm glad you LIKE the roll and all, but between you and me? I never use it. Ever. And honestly? Trying to work in some kind of weird roll attack just... does NOT... at all... sound even half as cool as a standing, swirling attack. It just doesn't, man. It just... doesn't.

 

Have you played around with the roll mechanic? Here, just for fun. Take a look into my world and playstyle. Set your roll (not sprint/roll, just roll) to your forward scroll on your mouse, something that Warframe doesn't already bind anything to. Go somewhere relatively quiet, I'd suggest Terminus or a parkour course if you have one in your dojo, and try it out. Reason I'm suggesting Terminus? You can aim, and have access to one of the most underused mechanics in the game; the flips.

Aim, move, roll command. That's it. Aim, press sideways, and roll. Aim, press back, and roll. It's a lot of fun, and you have no idea how much it reduces enemy accuracy. You just sort of scoot out of the way and laugh as they point their guns in random directions out of sheer frustration. X3 Once you've cleaned the enemies out, try playing with the momentum system. Jump. Double jump. Jump and roll on landing. Jump and slide on landing. Jump, then slide and roll. It's so.... fluid. It feels like a natural motion, something that would actually happen, something this kind of character would actually do. Transfer further; roll to bullet jump. Bullet jump to wall run to roll to bullet jump... TwT I dun' want it to go. If I could integrate attacks and rolls together, it would be awesome, and even cover roughly the same purpose as the dash-attack you proposed.

 

Just wanted to propose alternatives.

 

PART-6: CONCLUSION

I appreciate the criticism (sort-of? I actually don't feel any particular way about it to be honest), but I'm PURPOSELY leaving the ideas a little freeform and open-ended. I'm giving DE a bit of freedom (not that they wouldn't be free to take it anyway) to tweak the ideas to work in their game however they need to. I'm keeping in mind that although I have some suggestions I'd like to see in the game, it's still their game and how they want to implement things is really up to them. Also, I really don't think I'm in a position that I can determine the exact specifics of how anything should be carried out.

 

Thanks, and yeah. I tend to take for granted the freedom that DE already has. I do try to present general concepts instead of hard numbers, and only use hard numbers as examples, but... aye, I do tend to err on the side of specificity. >w<

I'm just happy to be a part of a game where the developers are actually actively paying attention to their playerbase, instead of just taking the votes via pocketbook.

 

Everything from my perspective is based on what I observe, and what's fun for me, just as your own probably is. Doesn't mean I can't try to see things from someone else's perspective... though it doesn't always work.

[ENIAK_Prime]

But... you can. D: It's just not bbe code. You have to press 'quote' a few more times and then edit the quote boxes as they show up to get the parts you want. I admit it's clumsy, and could use some improvement, but it does work.

It IS clumsy and I'm too lazy to mess with it to be honest. Especially because sometimes quotes arbitrarily break for no reason and just... no. No thanks.

Anyway, back to the discussion!

1. FINISHERS CONT.

While I agree there's normally room for error where finishers are involved, this is another of those lore things for me. Granted, the Warframes are being played by us, imperfect beings, but they're still the gosh-danged Tenno.

And as far as Stealth Attacks vs other Finishers, remember that opening the enemy to a frontal finisher prompt is done by making them stumble, and leaving them wide open. They're in no better position to defend themselves from finishers than they were if I snuck up from behind.

As far as bosses go, though, I agree Finishers shouldn't outright kill them. I actually have a whole 'nother topic concerning Finishers you should check out! it describes performing finishers on bosses as more of a quick-time event you can utilize to get some extra damage on them. I definitely think there should be more of these.

2. ACTIVE BLOCKING

Well, keep in mind Active Blocking isn't meant to be COMPLETELY helpful. Remember when I suggested it be part of the Coverage mechanic, and just lower coverage while attacking? It'd be like this.

Pretend there's nobody attacking you, so nothing to diminish your coverage other than what you're doing.

GUARDING - Full Coverage. 100% Damage reduction.

STANDING/AT EASE - No Coverage. 0% Damage reduction.

ATTACKING - Little Coverage - 20% Damage reduction.

Again, these are imprecise numbers just used as an example, but I hope they convey the idea I'm going for. Basically it's a way to make Tenno look just a little more good at the job they're supposed to be able to do, y'know?

3. ROLL VS DASH

I'll be honest here, there's nothing wrong with your roll idea vs my Dash. Functionally, they'd both be essentially perfectly similar, so I'm only disagreeing at this point for purely aesthetic reasons.

I mean... if we're doing roll attacks instead of standing spin attacks, how can I sing this?: 

[WolvenEdge]

Hmm... alright. You've sold me on points one and two, and you added a great song to the third.

I just think our dancing styles are different. X3 I break dance. Er... or rather, whenever I dance, something usually ends up broken. ;w; And yes, I do enjoy megaman. A lot... I just liked the games people didn't more than the ones that most megaman fans like. I LOVED Megaman Starforce, Megaman Battle-Network, and Megaman Legends. I was one of the heartbroken ones when I learned that Megaman Legends 3 had been canceled.

 

Back on the subject of dancing, I'd like to see the animations in the Eclipse Narta be put into a stance for sparring weapons. X3

 

Actually... I have an idea that could solve both. We have a double-jump, why not a double-dodge? The first 'forward roll' is a short dive that can be used as a stealthy dash, the second actually rolls, they would move smoothly into each other, and each have their own attacks.

Any thoughts?

[ENIAK_Prime]

Hmm... alright. You've sold me on points one and two, and you added a great song to the third.

I just think our dancing styles are different. X3 I break dance. Er... or rather, whenever I dance, something usually ends up broken. ;w; And yes, I do enjoy megaman. A lot... I just liked the games people didn't more than the ones that most megaman fans like. I LOVED Megaman Starforce, Megaman Battle-Network, and Megaman Legends. I was one of the heartbroken ones when I learned that Megaman Legends 3 had been canceled.

 

Back on the subject of dancing, I'd like to see the animations in the Eclipse Narta be put into a stance for sparring weapons. X3

 

Actually... I have an idea that could solve both. We have a double-jump, why not a double-dodge? The first 'forward roll' is a short dive that can be used as a stealthy dash, the second actually rolls, they would move smoothly into each other, and each have their own attacks.

Any thoughts?

Alternatively, we can keep the roll by making it shift+Roll if you reeaaally really want it. Since Shift is the crouching button and I don't see why not!

Also, HOW COOL would a Breakdancing stance be? That could easily be a Hands/Feet stance!

[WolvenEdge]

Shift is sprint, ctrl is crouch... at least that's how I set mine up. What about momentum management that rolling provides? Could the dash be used for that? Hmm... maybe you could pick roll or dash in the customization UI for your idle stances.

[ENIAK_Prime]

Shift is sprint, ctrl is crouch... at least that's how I set mine up. What about momentum management that rolling provides? Could the dash be used for that? Hmm... maybe you could pick roll or dash in the customization UI for your idle stances.

Err, right. Well I meant whatever key is for crouching. I had mine re-binded to shift. I set sprint to toggle on tab.

[WolvenEdge]

Would stealth improvements be in order as well? Say, things that let us get into close quarters?

Or would that be better addressed in a different thread?

[ENIAK_Prime]

Would stealth improvements be in order as well? Say, things that let us get into close quarters?

Or would that be better addressed in a different thread?

That should definitely be discussed in a separate thread for stealth, if only because Stealth is a topic that deserves to be discussed as thoroughly as possible. I love it as much as I love melee. Bl

[CY13ERPUNK]

+9999 OP

[Aquasurge]

1000% perfection dude.