Make Channel Cost (Base) 1 Energy Per Strike

[Epicagemo]

Title.

I mean seriously, it would make all the mods on this list useful, and it would make melee a good contender for guns, because currently melee is almost in complete wack save for a few stances and weapons.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Channeling_Mods

 

Edit:

"While Reflex Coil and Focus Energy combined will total 100% channeling efficiency, Melee Channel has a minimum energy cost of 1 Energy per strike, translating to an 80% Channeling Efficiency cap."

Edited August 5, 2015 by Epicagemo

[Renegade343]

Can I ask one thing: 

 

What about the Channelling Efficiency mods, then? They work on percentages rather than absolute values, meaning if the Channelling cost is low, then they would become useless due to having no significant reduction in energy (at least, up until 100+% Efficiency, then it would start giving you energy every time the channelled melee weapon hits an enemy, which would make energy acquisition more easy.). What are you proposing to solve this problem?

[IfritKajiTora]

Melee should get special slot called channeling. Just like frames have their utility slot. But these will be only for Channeling mods.

All these mods should not have efficiency on -. If you add them to melee you already have less damage because you need to change elemental mod for this channeling mod and the most of them are just useless compared to the energy cost. Only Life Strike Should be like it is now. 

Check Warframe builder add efficiency mods to have 1 energy cost.  and compare adding normal mods and look at damage, and compare channeling efficiency to 1 damage.

With channeling you have like 10% damage more with 1 energy drain per hit, than normal modding without using channeling :/.

Edited August 4, 2015 by IfritKajiTora

[Epicagemo]

Can I ask one thing: 

 

What about the Channelling Efficiency mods, then? They work on percentages rather than absolute values, meaning if the Channelling cost is low, then they would become useless due to having no significant reduction in energy (at least, up until 100+% Efficiency, then it would start giving you energy every time the channelled melee weapon hits an enemy, which would make energy acquisition more easy.). What are you proposing to solve this problem?

So I can use a max rank Life strike and not lose 100 Energy hitting 5 infested with my galatine :)

I have doubts DE wouldn't consider something like this-they'd probably just hard cap energy drain to 1/hit (no energy recovery even with max)

But, assume DE Allows energy recovery per channel-You'd need both mods, and no negative efficiency mods-hence losing life strike capability which is dire. dead=0dps.

Health recovering Warframes? Hey, let people play broberon, trinity, and others in pugs. Also, it'll allow Trinity/Plate-less Raids-which I dare you to try.

 

I melee channel a lot, and rage+lifestrike combo doesn't always give me all that I need in terms of energy and health-especially when armor scales up, it's much easier-it seems to hide back and one shot enemies with any other ranged weapon.

[Renegade343]

But, assume DE Allows energy recovery per channel-You'd need both mods, and no negative efficiency mods-hence losing life strike capability which is dire. dead=0dps.

Health recovering Warframes? Hey, let people play broberon, trinity, and others in pugs. Also, it'll allow Trinity/Plate-less Raids-which I dare you to try.

Yes, but that does not mean it should be ignored as well. There should be checks to ensure that energy acquisition is not going to be even easier than what it is now, with the plethora of options a player can gain energy. 

 

Some melee users say that Life Strike is overrated, and is not really needed that badly, but I am not going to delve further into this topic, for I play more of a marksman/stealth gunner role. 

[Epicagemo]

Melee should get special slot called channeling. Just like frames have their utility slot. But these will be only for Channeling mods.

All these mods should not have efficiency on -. If you add them to melee you already have less damage because you need to change elemental mod for this channeling mod and the most of them are just useless compared to the energy cost. Only Life Strike Should be like it is now. 

Check Warframe builder add efficiency mods to have 1 energy cost.  and compare adding normal mods and look at damage, and compare channeling efficiency to 1 damage.

With channeling you have like 10% damage more with 1 energy drain per hit, than normal modding without using channeling :/.

It would be interesting, because it would allow players to actually forma their melee-currently stances allow 0 Forma on a melee weapon and it's fully optimized. But my poor Forma Inventory xDDD Let's also hope-If DE does decide to include utlity slot, it doesn't cost anything-and it's just a reserve slot for Channel Mods.

 

I've read a post somewhere back a while ago-Killing Blow truly only becomes effective when there's 3 elemental mods on. Melee channel could be better.

Most my weapons cannot afford to add on extra mods like so-let alone my 3rd element.

EDit: I'll have to double check my builds later

Edited August 4, 2015 by Epicagemo

[Epicagemo]

Yes, but that does not mean it should be ignored as well. There should be checks to ensure that energy acquisition is not going to be even easier than what it is now, with the plethora of options a player can gain energy. 

 

Some melee users say that Life Strike is overrated, and is not really needed that badly, but I am not going to delve further into this topic, for I play more of a marksman/stealth gunner role. 

I count 2-3 effective ones: Trinity, Plates

Semi-effective: Rage, Orbs

That's only 4.

 

But let's explore what might happen into our scenario, Say someone does use melee for energy. He's right in front of the danger, minimal health mitigation(save for Mirage, Mesa), no health recovery.

Well-maybe rhino, oberon, trinity, Saryn, Valkyr... Oh wait the ones I listed as exception are supporting/tank roles... xD SHouldn't they be in the front lines with energy restores this effective? Trinity would become an even greater supporting role, especially with well of life, providing heals and energy. Yes, EV still counts as extra sources of energy including our little punching bag inflicted with WOL

[Naftal]

Channeling mechanics need to be fixed to make channeling useful. Even if you forget about the channeling energy cost, almost none of the channeling mods are worth slots.

 

First, +channeling damage mods should multiply total damage of the hit, not just the channeling damage bonus. Just like for example crit damage mods multiply the total damage and not just the extra damage you're doing on crits.

 

Second, channeling multiplier must be seperate from combo counter multiplier. Currently they are additive to each other, making channeling builds crap when you hit 2x or higher combo counter multiplier (15 or more hits).

 

Third, buff the values on all the channeling mods that give reduced channeling efficiency. Their values are way too low to be worth a mod slot even without a downside.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Naftal

[Renegade343]

I count 2-3 effective ones: Trinity, Plates

Semi-effective: Rage, Orbs

That's only 4.

That is kind of a lot, considering that the effective ones can restore lots energy with minimal effort. Remember that abilities can make killed enemies drop orbs as well, and some weapons can clear rooms as well. 

 

And why did you forget Equilibrium? That can also gain energy as well. 

 

But let's explore what might happen into our scenario, Say someone does use melee for energy. He's right in front of the danger, minimal health mitigation(save for Mirage, Mesa), no health recovery.

Well-maybe rhino, oberon, trinity, Saryn, Valkyr... Oh wait the ones I listed as exception are supporting/tank roles... xD SHouldn't they be in the front lines with energy restores this effective? Trinity would become an even greater supporting role, especially with well of life, providing heals and energy. Yes, EV still counts as extra sources of energy including our little punching bag inflicted with WOL

We do not need more ways of energy restoration than what it is now. That is the point I am making, because your suggestion can have this problem, and the energy system does not need another problem loaded onto it. And last time I heard from players that are experienced with melee, (almost) every Warframe can be made to be melee-effective. 

[Epicagemo]

That is kind of a lot, considering that the effective ones can restore lots energy with minimal effort. Remember that abilities can make killed enemies drop orbs as well, and some weapons can clear rooms as well. 

 

And why did you forget Equilibrium? That can also gain energy as well. 

 

We do not need more ways of energy restoration than what it is now. That is the point I am making, because your suggestion can have this problem, and the energy system does not need another problem loaded onto it. And last time I heard from players that are experienced with melee, (almost) every Warframe can be made to be melee-effective. 

Isn't your credibility shot already as a "marksman"?

Try running a Trin/plate-less Raid.. Your goal, is to obtain 1250 energy 4 times, and beat a regular timed group with EV trin. With your best option to cycle bomb carriers each time one runs out of energy. -25 energy per second, Orbs ain't keeping up with that even with two Nekros+equilibrium on each build-You'll run out of mobs (spawn is crappy). Equilibrium also takes out a mod slot... which most builds cannot afford. it's also a -14 drain.

 

This is not even on point of "buffing channeling", you're arguing is an entirely different point. Your argument is we don't need more energy sources-this is subjective. You think there's enough energy sources, but I think there isn't. Especially for melee solo-and even with trinity, when's the last time you saw a trinity in pubs? But do you think DE would let the channel=energy recovery be an oversight and not even consider it?

[Renegade343]

Isn't your credibility shot already as a "marksman"?

Try running a Trin/plate-less Raid.. Your goal, is to obtain 1250 energy 4 times, and beat a regular timed group with EV trin. With your best option to cycle bomb carriers each time one runs out of energy. -25 energy per second, Orbs ain't keeping up with that even with two Nekros+equilibrium on each build-You'll run out of mobs (spawn is crappy). Equilibrium also takes out a mod slot... which most builds cannot afford. it's also a -14 drain.

How does credibility being a "marksman" damaged related to that particular reasoning? Doing that has nothing with being a "marksman". 

 

This is not even on point of "buffing channeling", you're arguing is an entirely different point.

But your "buffing channelling" suggestion is going to have that particular problem if it goes through. It should be considered to keep things balanced out with melee. It is not just "buff channelling, done". There are other factors that can be and are affected by your suggestion, and that is one of them. 

 

Your argument is we don't need more energy sources-this is subjective. You think there's enough energy sources, but I think there isn't.

Energy and energy acquisition is integral to the game, but energy acquisition is very easy as of now. Having an extra source would deepen the problem, however small it is (a lot of swings hitting enemies would still equate to gaining a lot of energy.). I am worried about that. 

 

Especially for melee solo-and even with trinity, when's the last time you saw a trinity in pubs?

Quite a lot.

 

But do you think DE would let the channel=energy recovery be an oversight and not even consider it?

People, including the developers, can make mistakes and actually let errors through. We should, when suggesting ideas to improve the game, do our best to minimise as much potential oversights and errors so that it would not end up doing more harm than good. Yes, it might look stuid to write out, "Do not let melee attacks gain energy per swing that hits an enemy when at 100+% channelling and make channelling base cost to one energy per strike due to xyz.", but it would help to remind the developers if they think about implementing it. 

[Epicagemo]

How does credibility being a "marksman" damaged related to that particular reasoning? Doing that has nothing with being a "marksman". 

 

But your "buffing channelling" suggestion is going to have that particular problem if it goes through. It should be considered to keep things balanced out with melee. It is not just "buff channelling, done". There are other factors that can be and are affected by your suggestion, and that is one of them. 

 

Energy and energy acquisition is integral to the game, but energy acquisition is very easy as of now. Having an extra source would deepen the problem, however small it is (a lot of swings hitting enemies would still equate to gaining a lot of energy.). I am worried about that. 

 

Quite a lot.

 

People, including the developers, can make mistakes and actually let errors through. We should, when suggesting ideas to improve the game, do our best to minimise as much potential oversights and errors so that it would not end up doing more harm than good. Yes, it might look stuid to write out, "Do not let melee attacks gain energy per swing that hits an enemy when at 100+% channelling and make channelling base cost to one energy per strike due to xyz.", but it would help to remind the developers if they think about implementing it. 

This is melee, Your credibility NOT in melee-you don't have the credibility that I, and many other melee players do.

 

"But your "buffing channelling" suggestion is going to have that particular problem if it goes through. It should be considered to keep things balanced out with melee. It is not just "buff channelling, done". There are other factors that can be and are affected by your suggestion, and that is one of them."

What is it balanced TO?

My suggestion would tip the favor to make melee slightly better than it is now, that's all. DE rarely make oversights, they make bugs. Name the last Oversight they've done. Covert Lethality doesn't count, because you need radial blind, and it's not as practical as it seems. 0 Ammo Vectis was patched out quickly.

I've said that it would not be a problem. I ran it through a simulation, +1 energy per channel strike-You'd need something like a fang prime and a macro masher to fully be exploiting the game out of that Assumed aspect. And there's also the possibility that DE would clearly see that coming. If not, people reveal, it gets patched, oh DONE. Plus, even if they did add that feature in, you'd need to stand in front of an enemy to regain energy, when 6 mobs are around shooting you, HP goes down, minimal ways to recover, especially if you're not a tank frame. You wouldn't know because your credibility doesn't cover this, as you said-You've claimed yourself as a marksman.

 

Energy acquisition is easy, sure for some. But again, Try regaining energy without Trinity/Plates. Run a Channel build. -5 energy per hit, and it takes 3-5 hits to kill a decent high level enemy with a dragon nikana. one energy orb covers 5 channel strikes. Chances of obtaining energy is a lot lower than you can kill with a full channel. This is why, you cannot see what I see, you don't have the credibility, Marksman.

 

My question of trinity in pubs was rhetoric. It's not meant to be answered. I don't see Trinities at all, if you do, good for you.

[Renegade343]

What is it balanced TO?

The whole game and its elements. 

 

My suggestion would tip the favor to make melee slightly better than it is now, that's all. 

I am very well aware of that, but that does not mean that other potential problems should not be disregarded. 

 

DE rarely make oversights, they make bugs. Name the last Oversight they've done. Covert Lethality doesn't count, because you need radial blind, and it's not as practical as it seems. 0 Ammo Vectis was patched out quickly.

Loki + Decoy + Switch Teleport to hide behind a wall and kill enemies, due to how Decoy and targeting works (which is working fine). It might not sound bad in PVE, but it is very devastating in PVP, as the Loki is basically invulnerable and can kill opposing players. That has not been fixed yet, despite various reports and me actually sending a video of how to do it to the relevant developers. That was quite some months ago, and up to the time Dark Sectors PVP was taken down, that oversight has not been fixed. 

 

I've said that it would not be a problem. I ran it through a simulation, +1 energy per channel strike-You'd need something like a fang prime and a macro masher to fully be exploiting the game out of that Assumed aspect. 

I may not have much in the melee department, but I do know very well about practical enemy spawns, especially in Endless Missions, when enemy levels are still within Levels 1 - 55. I do know that hitting multiple enemies at once will multiply channelling cost by the number of enemies hit, and extrapolating that, it would mean that with your suggestion, hitting multiple enemies at once with 100+% channelling costs will multiply gained energy by the number of enemies hit. 

 

And there's also the possibility that DE would clearly see that coming. If not, people reveal, it gets patched, oh DONE. 

See reply about the Loki + Decoy + Switch Teleport to hide behind a wall oversight in PVP. 

 

Plus, even if they did add that feature in, you'd need to stand in front of an enemy to regain energy, when 6 mobs are around shooting you, HP goes down, minimal ways to recover, especially if you're not a tank frame. You wouldn't know because your credibility doesn't cover this, as you said-You've claimed yourself as a marksman.

Yes, but I did say that I watch other players who are experienced with melee, and they show that almost every Warframe can be melee-effective. 

 

Energy acquisition is easy, sure for some. But again, Try regaining energy without Trinity/Plates. Run a Channel build. -5 energy per hit, and it takes 3-5 hits to kill a decent high level enemy with a dragon nikana. one energy orb covers 5 channel strikes. Chances of obtaining energy is a lot lower than you can kill with a full channel. 

My point is that we do not need any more energy acquisition than what it is now, which is one of the potential problems of your suggestion. Energy is already pretty easy to obtain, we do not need yet another method. 

 

In short, is your suggestion alright? Yes. Does it need a bit more thought? Also yes, because there is also the problem of how to make the Channelling Efficiency+ mods useful (I do know that DE is thinking of bringing back charged melee attacks, so they can have their old function back, although that would be assuming charged melee attacks is brought back without any significant alterations), as well as providing a stronger downside to some of the Channelling mods, since a large percentage increase of a very small number is still a very small number. 

[Epicagemo]

The whole game and its elements. 

 

I am very well aware of that, but that does not mean that other potential problems should not be disregarded. 

 

I may not have much in the melee department, but I do know very well about practical enemy spawns, especially in Endless Missions, when enemy levels are still within Levels 1 - 55. I do know that hitting multiple enemies at once will multiply channelling cost by the number of enemies hit, and extrapolating that, it would mean that with your suggestion, hitting multiple enemies at once with 100+% channelling costs will multiply gained energy by the number of enemies hit.

...

My point is that we do not need any more energy acquisition than what it is now, which is one of the potential problems of your suggestion. Energy is already pretty easy to obtain, we do not need yet another method. 

 

In short, is your suggestion alright? Yes. Does it need a bit more thought? Also yes, because there is also the problem of how to make the Channelling Efficiency+ mods useful (I do know that DE is thinking of bringing back charged melee attacks, so they can have their old function back, although that would be assuming charged melee attacks is brought back without any significant alterations), as well as providing a stronger downside to some of the Channelling mods, since a large percentage increase of a very small number is still a very small number. 

Melee is at such a disadvantage.

Next, Channeling, is one of the disadvantages. The cost is too high, even at 5. I bring my Galatine, 5 mobs, channel, Tempo Royale, I lose 50 energy straight off the bat, especially since Melee cannot one shot past 30. if changed to 1, is what I proposed Melee might stand a chance. You proposed a potential danger, that has a high chance that it does not exist. Energy Channel Hit will NEVER REGAIN ENERGY. Why?

 

Take a look at this page:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Focus_Energy

"While Reflex Coil and Focus Energy combined will total 100% channeling efficiency, Melee Channel has a minimum energy cost of 1 Energy per strike, translating to an 80% Channeling Efficiency cap."

...

So basically we were arguing about something pointless.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Epicagemo

[Renegade343]

Melee is at such a disadvantage.

Next, Channeling, is one of the disadvantages. The cost is too high, even at 5. I bring my Galatine, 5 mobs, channel, Tempo Royale, I lose 50 energy straight off the bat, especially since Melee cannot one shot past 30. if changed to 1, is what I proposed Melee might stand a chance. You proposed a potential danger, that has a high chance that it does not exist. Energy Channel Hit will NEVER REGAIN ENERGY. Why?

See reply below about why this can be a danger, and it would be best to remind the recipient of it.

 

Take a look at this page:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Focus_Energy

"While Reflex Coil and Focus Energy combined will total 100% channeling efficiency, Melee Channel has a minimum energy cost of 1 Energy per strike, translating to an 80% Channeling Efficiency cap."

You are asking for the channelling base energy to become one energy per strike. If nothing else, you are showing me that Reflex Coil and Focus Energy will very much suffer from your suggestion without anything else, in which you did not give out a suggestion on how to retain their usefulness. 

 

My worry still stands because DE would need to alter values and a bit of the channelling system to accommodate your suggestion, and that problem can slip by. You did not say anything about whether the system would stay the same or not, so I would be validly assuming that the particular problem will arise. 

 

But I will be stopping this argument, because this is starting to take up half the page. 

[Epicagemo]

See reply below about why this can be a danger, and it would be best to remind the recipient of it.

 

You are asking for the channelling base energy to become one energy per strike. If nothing else, you are showing me that Reflex Coil and Focus Energy will very much suffer from your suggestion without anything else, in which you did not give out a suggestion on how to retain their usefulness. 

 

...

http://warframe.wiki...Channeling_Mods

Refer to the top :P

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Melee will never be a match for guns in WF, period.

[Naftal]

Melee will never be a match for guns in WF, period.

Good melees outdps most guns though, with the exception of aoe ones.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Good melees outdps most guns though, with the exception of aoe ones.

Not in real world situations.  A gun will clear the room before you get to the second enemy with a melee weapon.  By the time you get to the point where that extra damage from melee weapons isn't just pointless overkill, it will be too dangerous to get into melee range without CC cheese.

[Naftal]

Real world situations are irrelevant to warframe. In real warframe situations good players can move properly and non aoe guns won't win the melees that can do aoe.