It Doesn't Matter How Much You Buff Rhino's Armor

[TheBrsrkr]

Yes, once every 70 seconds, you will need to hide for less than a second to recast. How horrifying.

And all the health damage you took is still there. And all your damage reduction and bonus is gone.

And this is somehow comparable to 15 seconds of 99% damage reduction. Somehow.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Then wait for Armor to build up again. The point is Armor only protect his health which is not regenerating unless you either use Gear or Heat Chroma. While damage reduction means it protect shield as well.

And?

 

https://youtu.be/YoyoLASs_uQ?t=4m20s

[TheBrsrkr]

And?

https://youtu.be/YoyoLASs_uQ?t=4m20s

And he's powerful, not virtually invincible.

[tinyranitar]

And?

 

https://youtu.be/YoyoLASs_uQ?t=4m20s

He isn't CC immune, unlike Rhino.

 

And you are being like boo hoo Chroma can be a friggin Immortal Beast why can't muh Rhino be one.

 

Because that Chroma needs a lot of modding to be effective, which includes Life Strike while Rhino only needs a few. And with that much mod, yes, my current Rhino can breeze through t4exterminate too without breaking a sweat, not even needing to bring life strike.

 

My topic is not about how fast Rhino melts in high-end contents.

My topic is about how Rhino's Armor is being ignored.

 

But I'm here to tell you how ridiculous that 99% mitigation is. It means that health isn't even reached before that shield regenerated to the top. Running Arcane Barrier basically made you a god.

Edited August 6, 2015 by tinyranitar

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

He isn't CC immune, unlike Rhino.

 

And you are being like boo hoo Chroma can be a friggin Immortal Beast why can't muh Rhino be one.

 

Because that Chroma needs a lot of modding to be effective, which includes Life Strike while Rhino only needs a few. And with that much mod, yes, my current Rhino can breeze through t4exterminate too without breaking a sweat, not even needing to bring life strike.

 

My topic is not about how fast Rhino melts in high-end contents.

My topic is about how Rhino's Armor is being ignored.

 

But I'm here to tell you how ridiculous that 99% mitigation is. It means that health isn't even reached before that shield regenerated to the top. Running Arcane Barrier basically made you a god.

Why would I be "boo hoo"ing? I have Rhino, Chroma, Trinity, AND Valkyr, and I have all 4 of them tatered and maxed (well Chroma is technically rank 29 right now).

 

I am already a god with Trinity, Chroma, and Valk.

[TheBrsrkr]

Why would I be "boo hoo"ing? I have Rhino, Chroma, Trinity, AND Valkyr, and I have all 4 of them tatered and maxed (well Chroma is technically rank 29 right now).

I am already a god with Trinity, Chroma, and Valk.

What exactly does this have to do with your suggestion?

[tinyranitar]

Why would I be "boo hoo"ing? I have Rhino, Chroma, Trinity, AND Valkyr, and I have all 4 of them tatered and maxed (well Chroma is technically rank 29 right now).

 

I am already a god with Trinity, Chroma, and Valk.

And how does that affect how I want Iron Skin to be based of armor? 

 

My topic is not about how fast Rhino melts in high-end contents.

My topic is about how Rhino's Armor is being ignored.

This is what I want to talk about.

An innovative way of bringing Rhino's Armor to the table. Not discussing who is the tankiest Warframe.

 

And tbh running Excalibur makes me feel more like an unkillable god than the three you mentioned. But we are not here to discuss that aren't we?

Edited August 6, 2015 by tinyranitar

[TheBrsrkr]

Lemme see if I can copy paste something on this phone....

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

And how does that affect how I want Iron Skin to be based of armor? 

It's a counter-proposal.  Rather than being based off of armor, I think it should be a flat damage reduction.

[tinyranitar]

It's a counter-proposal.  Rather than being based off of armor, I think it should be a flat damage reduction.

Then wouldn't that made armor even more redundant since people gonna stack up on shield anyway

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Then wouldn't that made armor even more redundant since people gonna stack up on shield anyway

Is your goal to make Iron Skin useful or to force people to equip armor mods?

[tinyranitar]

Is your goal to make Iron Skin useful or to force people to equip armor mods?

I don't force anyone to do anything.

 

I just want to say that the Armor buff to Rhino was meaningless.

 

And I did remember you now. You made a thread about fixing Iron Skin a ridiculous level not too long ago.

[TheBrsrkr]

Here it is! I think....

Disclaimer: The specific numbers used are for illustrative purposes only. The important thing to note is the proposed mechanics.

Rhino's ability to tank hinges on his capacity to initiate (primarily charge), survive incoming damage (base stats and iron skin) and impede enemy action (charge and stomp) by disrupting them. Additionally he has roar to increase the damage output for himself and the team.

The announced upcoming changes are solid, but without a direct change to his defensive capability they will not be enough to make him a tank.

For Rhino's stats, I'd raise his base armor to 350.

For a relatively simple yet directed fix to iron skin. It would work as follows-

Rhino hardens his skin to create a reinforcing buffer with 500 / 700 / 1000 / 1500 Armor-based hitpoints. While the buffer is active, Rhino becomes immune to damage and Status Effects. Iron Skin will expire when the buffer's hitpoints are depleted.Total amount of Iron Skins hitpoints is affected by Power Strength.

Iron Skin acts as separate layer of protection over Rhino's health and shields. Iron Skin adds 100 percent of Rhino's total armor value including Steel Fiber, the effects of Iron Clad Charge and any other friendly buffs that would increase Warframe armor..

While Iron Skin is active: any attack rhino does on an enemy will inflict the "taunted" status effect on that enemy. This will cause them to focus all of their attention on rhino for 5 seconds. Each enemy affected by the taunt effect will increase the percentage that Iron Skin gains from his total armor by 2/4/8/10 percent (maybe more?). This affect stacks but cannot exceed a 200 (maybe 300, 400?) percent total armor increase. That percentage is effected by power strength mods. The duration of the taunt effect is affected by duration mods. This means that the more enemies rhino has focused on himself the more durable he is. Note: By "Any attack rhino does I am referring to whoever he shoots, hits with melee or effects with one of his powers. Literally any attack that rhino does. This allows him to pick and choose to taunt enemies one by one or in groups as he the need arises.

The taunt effect caused by attacks done while iron skin is active will be immediately disbanded when iron skin breaks or if it is manually deactivated by iron shrapnel. Note that the enemies formally aggro'ed will not necessarily attack a different target, they are simply no longer forced to attack Rhino and will target enemies as usual.

Edited August 6, 2015 by TheBrsrkr

[tinyranitar]

Here it is! I think....

Disclaimer: The specific numbers used are for illustrative purposes only. The important thing to note is the proposed mechanics.

Rhino's ability to tank hinges on his capacity to initiate (primarily charge), survive incoming damage (base stats and iron skin) and impede enemy action (charge and stomp) by disrupting them. Additionally he has roar to increase the damage output for himself and the team.

The announced upcoming changes are solid, but without a direct change to his defensive capability they will not be enough to make him a tank.

For Rhino's stats, I'd raise his base armor to 350.

For a relatively simple yet directed fix to iron skin. It would work as follows-

Rhino hardens his skin to create a reinforcing buffer with 500 / 700 / 1000 / 1500 Armor-based hitpoints. While the buffer is active, Rhino becomes immune to damage and Status Effects. Iron Skin will expire when the buffer's hitpoints are depleted.Total amount of Iron Skins hitpoints is affected by Power Strength.

Iron Skin acts as separate layer of protection over Rhino's health and shields. Iron Skin adds 100 percent of Rhino's total armor value including Steel Fiber, the effects of Iron Clad Charge and any other friendly buffs that would increase Warframe armor..

While Iron Skin is active: any attack rhino does on an enemy will inflict the "taunted" status effect on that enemy. This will cause them to focus all of their attention on rhino for 5 seconds. Each enemy affected by the taunt effect will increase the percentage that Iron Skin gains from his total armor by 2/4/8/10 percent (maybe more?). This affect stacks but cannot exceed a 200 (maybe 300, 400?) percent total armor increase. That percentage is effected by power strength mods. The duration of the taunt effect is affected by duration mods. This means that the more enemies rhino has focused on himself the more durable he is. Note: By "Any attack rhino does I am referring to whoever he shoots, hits with melee or effects with one of his powers. Literally any attack that rhino does. This allows him to pick and choose to taunt enemies one by one or in groups as he the need arises.

The taunt effect caused by attacks done while iron skin is active will be immediately disbanded when iron skin breaks or if it is manually deactivated by iron shrapnel. Note that the enemies formally aggro'ed will not necessarily attack a different target, they are simply no longer forced to attack Rhino and will target enemies as usual.

Maybe instead of giving bonus health to Iron Skin, could it gives damage reduction because otherwise the Armor value changed during taunt is meaningless

[TheBrsrkr]

Maybe instead of giving bonus health to Iron Skin, could it gives damage reduction because otherwise the Armor value changed during taunt is meaningless

The armor value directly affects Iron Skin though. Slotting armor will literally double its durability.

[tinyranitar]

The armor value directly affects Iron Skin though. Slotting armor will literally double its durability.

Oh, so the health of Iron Skin is not determined at the cast point? I thought it was determined at the cast point.

[TheBrsrkr]

Oh, so the health of Iron Skin is not determined at the cast point? I thought it was determined at the cast point.

There's 1500 base, plus double whatever your armor rating is. So in the case of just Rhino with no mods, it'll be 1500 + (275x2), and 400% of that would be the cap. If you add an R9 steel fiber, it'll be 1500 + ((275x2)x2), and then 400% of THAT will be the cap.

[tinyranitar]

There's 1500 base, plus double whatever your armor rating is. So in the case of just Rhino with no mods, it'll be 1500 + (275x2), and 400% of that would be the cap. If you add an R9 steel fiber, it'll be 1500 + ((275x2)x2), and then 400% of THAT will be the cap.

Oh... Then wouldn't armor increase while the skin is up becoming meaningless? Because the Armor buff from taunting ends as soon as Iron Skin ran out.

[TheBrsrkr]

Oh... Then wouldn't armor increase while the skin is up becoming meaningless? Because the Armor buff from taunting ends as soon as Iron Skin ran out.

Well......technically, yes, but we already have a frame that raises armor for durability, Chroma. I like Vex armor and all, but Iron Skin shouldn't be a Vex clone. He still scales off armor rating, except his actual armor isn't affected much.

[tinyranitar]

Maybe drawing aggro will increase something else except armor, for instance, movement speed? It's natural that you are bout to run fasters when people point guns at you.

[TheBrsrkr]

Maybe drawing aggro will increase something else except armor, for instance, movement speed? It's natural that you are bout to run fasters when people point guns at you.

Seems a bit counterintuitive. Rhino, in design and move set, represents the stereotypical tank and his namesake: charge into battle, heedless of damage, and provide crushing opposition to your foes. Imagine a real rhino charging into some soldiers. The only part that doesn't work anymore is the heedless of damage part. Dodging is technically damage reduction, but it seems more like a cop out to me. The armor increase just seems the most thematic, and would be less taxing to the actual game than coming up with and implementing entirely new equations to the mix.

[tinyranitar]

Seems a bit counterintuitive. Rhino, in design and move set, represents the stereotypical tank and his namesake: charge into battle, heedless of damage, and provide crushing opposition to your foes. Imagine a real rhino charging into some soldiers. The only part that doesn't work anymore is the heedless of damage part. Dodging is technically damage reduction, but it seems more like a cop out to me. The armor increase just seems the most thematic, and would be less taxing to the actual game than coming up with and implementing entirely new equations to the mix.

But why armor increase at all when it does not matter? Or at least, grant him something like a slight damage increase. Movement speed is not for dodging, but for charging at enemies.

[TheBrsrkr]

But why armor increase at all when it does not matter? Or at least, grant him something like a slight damage increase. Movement speed is not for dodging, but for charging at enemies.

It matters a lot to Iron skin. The cap mechanic means you can either mod for other abilities with that one slot, or go for sheer tenacity and badassitude. In some builds, you may even have both. Maybe some math would help.

Let's say for simplicity that Rhino's armor is 300. If I cast a regular Iron Skin, it's total health would be 2100. If this were capped at 400%, it would mean that the highest armor it could achieve is 8400 by hitting 20 enemies.

Now if I were to do this with Steel Fiber on, my armor would be 600 (at R9). This makes the new base number for iron skin 2700. Now the armor it can achieve is 10400 at the same cap. This gap only gets bigger when you add strength mods and such. For comparison, a max Blind Rage Trans Fort and intensify Iron skin is 3408 health.

Note: these aren't the actual calculations, you can look over the main thread for those (The (almost) complete guide to reworking Rhino) but it illustrates how much power the armor can give to you, even outside of Rhino himself.

[tinyranitar]

It matters a lot to Iron skin. The cap mechanic means you can either mod for other abilities with that one slot, or go for sheer tenacity and badassitude. In some builds, you may even have both. Maybe some math would help.

Let's say for simplicity that Rhino's armor is 300. If I cast a regular Iron Skin, it's total health would be 2100. If this were capped at 400%, it would mean that the highest armor it could achieve is 8400 by hitting 20 enemies.

Now if I were to do this with Steel Fiber on, my armor would be 600 (at R9). This makes the new base number for iron skin 2700. Now the armor it can achieve is 10400 at the same cap. This gap only gets bigger when you add strength mods and such. For comparison, a max Blind Rage Trans Fort and intensify Iron skin is 3408 health.

Note: these aren't the actual calculations, you can look over the main thread for those (The (almost) complete guide to reworking Rhino) but it illustrates how much power the armor can give to you, even outside of Rhino himself.

So the Iron Skin health value is interchangable and adapting to Rhino's current armor? Neat.

[TheBrsrkr]

So the Iron Skin health value is interchangable and adapting to Rhino's current armor? Neat.

Precisely. Now he helps the team, has a good enough buff to the base to take a hit, and fighting makes you stronger, all while keeping to the theme and making armor a useful addition to his move set.