Mesa Power Struggle

[Omnimorph]

It's not a problem or restricting, it only seems that way because people set up those special teams for certain mission types.  A Mesa in normal (sector) play will use all or most of their abilities in rotation just like other frames.

 

The "press 4 to win" argument is greatly exaggerated, and if it comes out of someone's mouth it tells you that that person plays a lot of set mission types like Draco, etc., and doesn't run much with other mission types.

[(XBOX)Hitome Meisner]

It does but that's mostly cause when you run through the planets all you have left to do now is late game void Draco or raid an farm

[(XBOX)Hitome Meisner]

I agree. If Mesa is simply changed (even for the better) it won't fix the underlying issue and people will simply find another frame. Maybe people will use Saryn/Ash. Maybe people will find a way to funnel enemies into a place where Excal can afk EB the whole mass. It's a problem with which nobody truly has a solution because many people simply want efficiency (not a bad choice by any means). As a result the cycle of meta frames will be ad infinitum and the people complaining for reworks for a frame will be asking for another one to be reworked/nerfed once the efficiency players discover the next "meta" frame. Simply put, there's no way to make people want to "play" your game. They'll play theirs, and if their way is lazy/efficient/easy, what can you do about it except not play with one?

also tbh you can't really ask with Excalibur eb cause it moves you not to mention it's a straight line doesn't hit whole tile set within view an technically he has to be there to actually move around an kill stuff also Saryn ult is already a thing the problem is that scales of even worse than Mesa ult in late game my Saryn one shots until wave 43 or two rotation c's in survival

Also when blade stormin with ash in defense helps but there's a limit to how many you stab an while your stabbing 3 or 5 guys at a time the rest just target pod an kill it's health ash ain't that ridiculous

[DxAdder]

Why exactly one style of play ok and another not ?

 

Granted everyone entitled to there opinion but at the end of the day why don't you just not be on a team with Frames you deem

"Lazy/Inspire Poor game play" and leave it at that ?

 

This may come a shock but people do like to grind/trade for mods and get the frames to the point where they can wreck a map and enjoy the

time they invested getting there.

 

Do you really think anyone wants to grind for hours on end to level there weapons with a gimp frame ? 

 

I can goto Draco in a PUG and max anything in 8 rounds and that maybe takes 30 mins.

[(XBOX)Hitome Meisner]

Granted but have you ever been in a game with Mesa and when she dies 50 times an mission fails cause man 9/10 times there the first to leave or point fingers an they never learn cause they'll just go to another lobby an repeat like I said earlier it's to the point were the recruit chat is poison I personally don't bother with t4 defense with random people just because of this an its kinda hard to do your suggestion when everyone on recruiting chat wants a Mesa or plays Mesa in t4 def

[Silverstill]

Mesa doesn't need a nerf IMO, but what might greatly improve her for those playing her, is to make the use of Peacemaker a little more involved.

Maybe give it a kind of quick-time event mechanic, similar in style perhaps to Call of Juarez: Gunslinger.

Maybe just make the player pick the target priority somehow.

Something so that, when people see a Mesa efficiently burning down an entire wave of enemies, they think 'Wow, that player's good!' rather than 'Wow, that player can hold down LMB for a really long time!'

[(PSN)lupowolfen]

So, just a bit of devil's advocate here.

If the reason to nerf something is because it is popular and used a lot in farming.....then I have to ask. After the nerf, do you think people will not find something else to farm and use constantly?

So then should we nerf that?

People will ALWAYS find something to min/max and make most effective for that. There is no way to close every hole in a game with as many choices and options and combinations.

 

 

I agree. If Mesa is simply changed (even for the better) it won't fix the underlying issue and people will simply find another frame. Maybe people will use Saryn/Ash. Maybe people will find a way to funnel enemies into a place where Excal can afk EB the whole mass. It's a problem with which nobody truly has a solution because many people simply want efficiency (not a bad choice by any means). As a result the cycle of meta frames will be ad infinitum and the people complaining for reworks for a frame will be asking for another one to be reworked/nerfed once the efficiency players discover the next "meta" frame. Simply put, there's no way to make people want to "play" your game. They'll play theirs, and if their way is lazy/efficient/easy, what can you do about it except not play with one?

 

 

Developers like DE are always trying to achieve balance in their game.  Its a moving target but the better the balance the better the game play.  So its not a waste of time to mod Mesa for the sake of balance.  Just because you can't close every hole doesn't mean you should stop trying to close holes.

Edited August 11, 2015 by (PS4)lupowolfen

[(PSN)SKRIMP-N-GRITZ]

I like Mesa solo, but when I play defense it seems to lead to issues. Lazy players going AFK and not helping with nullifiers and just plain not contributing the powers they are allegedly there to contribute.

If I'm playing with friends and we are simply looking to expedite the defense mission it's no problem because we all know our roles and can do that for a mission or two. We also can do defense with non-cliche load outs, but that's because we weren't brought up in the time of greedy mag or Mesa...

Solo Mesa is the best. My build gives me 25secs of sheild shatter, and abt the same shooting gallery (and I get all of its duration). ballistic battery doesn't benefit from solo play, but whatever.

Mesa can be a good thing, but it's not without its difficulties.

[NN13]

. It's because slash has 40%reduced damage against enemies in void or grinnear that are high enough level like the raid or late waves on Draco the way to remedy this is to run 4 corrosive projections

You do realise that with Equinox's Miam, you don't need to reduce armor because Slash procs cause Finisher type damage that bypass Shields/Armor.

[Eminem2420]

I am honestly hoping that mesa's ult gets reworked into something that requires more player interaction, like Excal's new ult. I have seen whole squads relying on Mesa doing all the work while they sit there. Having a Mesa on the squad makes it not fun for the others who are not playing Mesa. When I hop onto Warframe, I want to play and have fun, not watch Mesa kill everything on the map. And telling people to just solo is a terrible excuse. Why should I have to play alone because of someone ruining all the fun?

[atom]

I am honestly hoping that mesa's ult gets reworked into something that requires more player interaction, like Excal's new ult. I have seen whole squads relying on Mesa doing all the work while they sit there. Having a Mesa on the squad makes it not fun for the others who are not playing Mesa. When I hop onto Warframe, I want to play and have fun, not watch Mesa kill everything on the map. And telling people to just solo is a terrible excuse. Why should I have to play alone because of someone ruining all the fun?

the situation you are describing is only possible with low level enemies. once you face nullifiers and high level enemies where mesa's dmg starts to fall off things get hectic and support frames have to do their job or team fails.

that said i do agree that reworking pacemaker into something more engaging than holding down LMB is a good idea but not for the reasons u posted.

Edited August 11, 2015 by ..atom..

[GravesTheOutlaw]

I am honestly hoping that mesa's ult gets reworked into something that requires more player interaction, like Excal's new ult. I have seen whole squads relying on Mesa doing all the work while they sit there. Having a Mesa on the squad makes it not fun for the others who are not playing Mesa. When I hop onto Warframe, I want to play and have fun, not watch Mesa kill everything on the map. And telling people to just solo is a terrible excuse. Why should I have to play alone because of someone ruining all the fun?

But that's the problem, cooperative games require compromise. They don't impose on your playstyle, how is it fair for you to impose on them? The underlying issue won't be fixed, I'm all for a Mesa rework but the players who want to be efficient will simply find a new frame that the "interaction" players hate and we'll be back at square one again.

Edited August 11, 2015 by GravesTheOutlaw

[DxAdder]

I am honestly hoping that mesa's ult gets reworked into something that requires more player interaction, like Excal's new ult. I have seen whole squads relying on Mesa doing all the work while they sit there. Having a Mesa on the squad makes it not fun for the others who are not playing Mesa. When I hop onto Warframe, I want to play and have fun, not watch Mesa kill everything on the map. And telling people to just solo is a terrible excuse. Why should I have to play alone because of someone ruining all the fun?

 

You have a valid point and I have an easy fix for it don't PUG.

 

Join a clan , make some friends and you won't have things like this happen.

 

But if your asking DE to make PUG life fun for everyone it will never happen.

[(PSN)crankonacranky]

Okay I am gonna be a douchebag and add to this argument with a load out me n some clan members started doing. We bring two mesa's with efficiency builds and a limbo with duration build. So all the mesa's do is push 4 to win while limbo banish' the mesa's so they can't get damaged ( because warframe can use their powers in banishment while also slowly keeping their power) n puts himself in the rift. We started doing this after we got burnt out of doing the endurance run for slash mods.

Anyways the reason why I told this is to make a point their were XP farming before Mesa n their will be a way with enough imagination even after if they were 2 buff her.

So like other have said its not a problem with the warframe its with the players being lazy.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

Mesa will be nerfed (After they make enough platinum off people buying it). Just wait. So if any of you get it late, I wouldn't bother putting forma on that frame at all until you see how the nerf goes.

[RpTheHotrod]

Mesa will be nerfed (After they make enough platinum off people buying it). Just wait. So if any of you get it late, I wouldn't bother putting forma on that frame at all until you see how the nerf goes.

She's still a strong frame even without Peacemaker. I'll be happy to still run her even with a PM nerf.

[Tesseract7777]

People don't realize that the whole no player interaction thing is only a tiny bit of the story when it comes to Peacemaker needing to be changed. 

 

 

The bigger reason is that Peacemaker is weak sauce that falls off hard at high levels. It doesn't just need an interaction change, it's needs a buff. 

Mesa sucks at high lev content? Tell that to my mesa duration build please.

Peacemaker spammers have no survivability whatsoever unless theres a frost in the same session, they're likely will be down in a metter of seconds , and ive experienced that myself, was in a t3 def with mesa and no frost (i was nova) and she kept going down cause the player , as the majority of the spammers, clearly do not know how freaking good shatter shields is.
Peacemaker spammers also NEED a support team for any mission the intend to do, while with a duration build you can easily solo anything, again mesa does not need any nerf because peacemaker doesn't deal a lot of damage when enemies are level 70+ , again its the players fault no mesa's, she has an amazing kit (imo) people, like sheeps, just follow what others do or whats most requested (peacemaker mesa+gmag..not anymore though) totally ignoring everything else.

So why should players (like me) who spent time with mesa, feeding her formas and such and figuring out a nice all around build pay the price of those spammers? Its not fair at all, let the peacemaker spammers have their fun at low levels and watch them die every 5 seconds at end game material.

 

Hey, sorry if I wasn't clear in my meaning. What I was trying to say is that Peacemaker is a terrible high level ability, and that Mesa quite frankly deserves better. 

 

Sure, her other abilities can make for a nice tanking build for soloing high tier, but she deserves an ultimate that helps her more when soloing high level. 

 

I'm guessing you don't use Peacemaker much when going solo in T4 Survival for example. What I'm trying to say is that Peacemaker needs a buff. 

 

Edit: I don't want to be misunderstood. While I would probably support some kind of interaction based change because I don't think robotic abilities are good for any game on principle, I don't want it to be nerfed. I want it to be stronger. I want Mesa's to have even more fun and more power. 

 

I feel like many of the people asking for a nerf don't understand that while it could use a mechanical tweak, it is actually not that strong. 

Edited August 11, 2015 by Tesseract7777

[(PSN)thefndodge]

But that's the problem, cooperative games require compromise. They don't impose on your playstyle, how is it fair for you to impose on them? The underlying issue won't be fixed, I'm all for a Mesa rework but the players who want to be efficient will simply find a new frame that the "interaction" players hate and we'll be back at square one again.

I agree, coop games do require compromise. Rude Mesa players do impose on others' playstyles in PUGs forcing them to do nothing or leave. That is not a compromise, that's an imposition. 

 

There is nothing inherently wrong with Mesa or Peacemaker, or any of the other frames that nuke whole maps. The problem with them only arises when a not-so-decent person lacking self-control uses those frames without any consideration of other players in PUGs. It's bad behavior and that is the core of why people often complain about nukers. Yep, you can act however you want in a PUG, but your not free from me or anyone else thinking your a boob and coming to the forums to whine about it. 

 

Go ahead and have fun with them in your private games with friends. Go farm with them. That doesn't bother me. It's not about the kills either. You can have them all and your 90% damage highlighted in gold on the mission complete screen if that's what you need. Just let me at least fire some shots at an enemy or take some damage. 

 

In the end, I don't hate the frames, I hate the players. Unfortunately when it comes to change, DE can't re-work players, they can only re-work the frames.

[(PSN)thefndodge]

People don't realize that the whole no player interaction thing is only a tiny bit of the story when it comes to Peacemaker needing to be changed. 

 

 

The bigger reason is that Peacemaker is weak sauce that falls off hard at high levels. It doesn't just need an interaction change, it's needs a buff. 

 

Hey, sorry if I wasn't clear in my meaning. What I was trying to say is that Peacemaker is a terrible high level ability, and that Mesa quite frankly deserves better. 

 

Sure, her other abilities can make for a nice tanking build for soloing high tier, but she deserves an ultimate that helps her more when soloing high level. 

 

I'm guessing you don't use Peacemaker much when going solo in T4 Survival for example. What I'm trying to say is that Peacemaker needs a buff. 

 

Edit: I don't want to be misunderstood. While I would probably support some kind of interaction based change because I don't think robotic abilities are good for any game on principle, I don't want it to be nerfed. I want it to be stronger. I want Mesa's to have even more fun and more power. 

 

I feel like many of the people asking for a nerf don't understand that while it could use a mechanical tweak, it is actually not that strong. 

I gotta agree with you on how to handle Peacemaker. Adding interactivity and some additional mechanic to make it useful in higher levels is the way to go. I'd love to see it nerfed out of spite because I hate it as it is, but I know that's not realistic and practical.

[DxAdder]

Mesa will be nerfed (After they make enough platinum off people buying it). Just wait. So if any of you get it late, I wouldn't bother putting forma on that frame at all until you see how the nerf goes.

 

"Beta or no Beta", I don't think DE wants to start being know as the people that play "bait and switch" with frames or Mods 

 

People invest time and money into this game, while I'm sure people are willing to accept small changes anything drastic would only

piss people off.

[Thumper3]

Developers like DE are always trying to achieve balance in their game.  Its a moving target but the better the balance the better the game play.  So its not a waste of time to mod Mesa for the sake of balance.  Just because you can't close every hole doesn't mean you should stop trying to close holes.

 

 

Agree and not at all what I was saying.

 

I am saying Mesa is not a hole.  Not saying it IS a hole and not to close it.

 

My point was this isn't a balance issue because the power IS balanced (sort of, I'll explain) because it does not actually scale up and become a super power at higher levels. 

 

If anything Mesa is broken...........but in need of a BUFF, not a nerf.  PM is giggle inducing fun at low level, but soon becomes curse inspiring wastes of energy at high level.  Making the "changes" people suggest in these threads don't mean you will see less Mesa's.  You will see NO Mesa's (and some other frame will become the new forum tear mascot).......and that's not balance, that's nerf bat abuse.

[(XBOX)Hitome Meisner]

Okay I am gonna be a douchebag and add to this argument with a load out me n some clan members started doing. We bring two mesa's with efficiency builds and a limbo with duration build. So all the mesa's do is push 4 to win while limbo banish' the mesa's so they can't get damaged ( because warframe can use their powers in banishment while also slowly keeping their power) n puts himself in the rift. We started doing this after we got burnt out of doing the endurance run for slash mods.

Anyways the reason why I told this is to make a point their were XP farming before Mesa n their will be a way with enough imagination even after if they were 2 buff her.

So like other have said its not a problem with the warframe its with the players being lazy.

my point exactly I said it before I have no problem with Mesa in general or efficient farming its that a warframe like Mesa gives people that mind set an it spreads poor play because they think they can go late game with that build or they start believing their God an think there good by holding a button once they get bashed in they don't learn how take from their mistakes an improve then they become contempt an adopt it as their only way to play earlier someone said just stop playing public an make a clan that's fine but that's just ignoring the problem an not bettering the community unless we as a whole put a stop to this lazy disease

[Eminem2420]

Well said. I am just going to quote this and leave it at that.

[HackShield]

+1 nothing else to say anyone got some salt :D

[Otaiken]

It would be nice if the skill had at least some minimum interactivity beyond pressing 4 and holding LMB.

 

You could make it a cone for example so you would at least have to turn around or lock down chokepoints to use it most effectively. The line of sight requirement is also very generous... you just need a one pixel's worth of LOS to get enemies. You can kill enemies you can't even see (even though you technically have LOS) which kinda takes away from the gunslinger sharpshooter feel. Yes, Mesa is a sharpshooter... the player however is not, the player just presses a button and I find that disappointing.

 

That said the entire "caster" class of warframes has to be reworked. The scaling is completely binary where you go from disgustingly OP to rather useless in a very small level range. The energy system along with the spammability and uninspired skill sets are all at the core of this problem. I think that "caster" playstyle should be an option in Warframe, but you should need to work for that power. That would make it more satisfying as well.  It's more fun to pull a chain of skills off that decimates enemies than pressing one button over and over.

Edited August 11, 2015 by LocoWithGun