Coptering And Parkour 2.0 Shows Why (And How) Desecrate/pilfering Swarm Need To Go

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I'm going to start this off by saying I'm going to report any "you don't like getting resources/mods" posts for not reading and not being relevant to the topic.

First of all, what was DE's biggest gripe with aerial melee and coptering? That it caused melee weapons to be chosen based on their speed boosting ability and not their actual usefulness as melee weapons.

What's my biggest gripe with pilfering swarm and desecrate? That it causes mods, frames, and abilities to be chosen based on their item acquisition ability and not their actual usefulness as mods, frames, and abilities.

My problem isn't that we can get things fast with these abilities. My problem is that to get things fast, you must use these abilities or you're gimping yourself.

The solution is to do something similar as what was done with parkour 2.0. With that, player speed was untied from melee weapons, and the speed players could move without using such practices was buffed. Here, desecrate and pilfering swarm should be replaced, and the drop chances for all items should be globally buffed greatly. Then Hydroid should get a real augment (and players should get to choose between getting the new augment and a 20 or so core pack) and Nekros should get a rework.

TL;DR: just as tying player speed to melee wasn't a good thing, neither is tying item acquisition to frames/abilities/mods. Buff the global drop rate and free these items from being farmbots.

[Prof_Blocks_007]

I must admit, it does seem silly that we use Nekros and Hydroid (Pilfering Swarm) to farm resources more quickly, but use them basically nowhere else.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

I don't think not choosing certain frames for certain tasks is gimping yourself, but a matter of preference.

 

I mean I look at Desecrate and Pilfering Storm with regards to gathering resources, as I would use Vauban or Nova for some CC.  It's just a different role, in this very varied game for people with various play styles.

 

Some people like to farm, some people like to run and gun, some people like to hop on walls.

 

Also..  I hope I don't get reported by you for posting in your thread in a manner that may mildly disagree with you?  (lol, I don't even think I'm disagreeing with you, but it's just a different point of view.)  Whatever though.  XD

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I don't think not choosing certain frames for certain tasks is gimping yourself, but a matter of preference.

I mean I look at Desecrate and Pilfering Storm with regards to gathering resources, as I would use Vauban or Nova for some CC. It's just a different role, in this very varied game for people with various play styles.

Some people like to farm, some people like to run and gun, some people like to hop on walls.

Also.. I hope I don't get reported by you for posting in your thread in a manner that may mildly disagree with you? (lol, I don't even think I'm disagreeing with you, but it's just a different point of view.) Whatever though. XD

But everyone likes to get resources. Getting resources isn't a playstyle. It doesn't improve my chances against enemies or change my combat effectiveness. Everyone should be able to get lots of resources while playing as they wish.

And I didn't say I'd report people for disagreeing, only for saying something completely irrelevant.

Edited August 5, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[-dicht.Amducias-]

I'm going to start this off by saying I'm going to report any "you don't like getting resources/mods" posts for not reading and not being relevant to the topic.

First of all, what was DE's biggest gripe with aerial melee and coptering? That it caused melee weapons to be chosen based on their speed boosting ability and not their actual usefulness as melee weapons.

What's my biggest gripe with pilfering swarm and desecrate? That it causes mods, frames, and abilities to be chosen based on their item acquisition ability and not their actual usefulness as mods, frames, and abilities.

My problem isn't that we can get things fast with these abilities. My problem is that to get things fast, you must use these abilities or you're gimping yourself.

The solution is to do something similar as what was done with parkour 2.0. With that, player speed was untied from melee weapons, and the speed players could move without using such practices was buffed. Here, desecrate and pilfering swarm should be replaced, and the drop chances for all items should be globally buffed greatly. Then Hydroid should get a real augment (and players should get to choose between getting the new augment and a 20 or so core pack) and Nekros should get a rework.

TL;DR: just as tying player speed to melee wasn't a good thing, neither is tying item acquisition to frames/abilities/mods. Buff the global drop rate and free these items from being farmbots.

nope

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

But everyone likes to get resources. Getting resources isn't a playstyle. It doesn't improve my chances against enemies or change my combat effectiveness. Everyone should be able to get lots of resources while playing differently.

And I didn't say I'd report people for disagreeing, only for saying something completely irrelevant.

 

Everyone does get resources, but how many of them is the issue I think you're on about.

 

What's wrong with people getting more resources, when modding to...  optimally get more resources?  XD

 

I mean some people rush through levels without a single care for resources...  so the farming guy should get the same amount as the rushing guy?  

I'm not putting words in your mouth, but realize that there are indeed people who play very differently in this game, and that Warframe has grown into a game that can be played in many different ways.  That is a very beautiful thing.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Everyone does get resources, but how many of them is the issue I think you're on about.

 

What's wrong with people getting more resources, when modding to...  optimally get more resources?  XD

 

I mean some people rush through levels without a single care for resources...  so the farming guy should get the same amount as the rushing guy?  

I'm not putting words in your mouth, but realize that there are indeed people who play very differently in this game, and that Warframe has grown into a game that can be played in many different ways.  That is a very beautiful thing.

And there are people who rushed without a single care for using melee. No one says "I don't want resources" just as no one says "I want a garbage melee". And what's wrong if people can get resources while playing the way they want?

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

-snip-

...what's wrong if people can get resources while playing the way they want?

 

Absolutely nothing.  I'm not the one saying there's something wrong with the way people are farming resources.  I think you perhaps are?

 

I don't think people should be getting resources for ignoring them though... I mean that doesn't make sense, but you kinda can when you have a carrier.  Hmm...

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Absolutely nothing.  I'm not the one saying there's something wrong with the way people are farming resources.  I think you perhaps are?

 

I don't think people should be getting resources for ignoring them though... I mean that doesn't make sense, but you kinda can when you have a carrier.  Hmm...

Rushers wouldn't get resources... You still have to kill to do so. And what you're saying is people should only progress quickly if they build around progression. Otherwise, they don't deserve to. You're also supporting that Nekros should just be the desecrate bot, and you're arguing that the drop rate shouldnt be increased.

[TheBrsrkr]

Yeah, we really shouldn't be able to influence resource drops. Not because it's inherently bad, but because loot in general is more tangible than anything else a frame can provide in a match. It's what you play for. If something can increase what I play for, there has to be heavy incentive to choose something else. We don't have that, we have no skill press 3 after you kill something, OE kill something with your most powerful move.

[Phatose]

This won't solve any issues.

 

Given that kill rate is directly tied to drops, players *will* still choose frames purely for item acquisition.  However, instead of that being the sideways step of Desecrate or Pilfering, it will simply be "Find frame with maximum kill rate".

 

You'll trade Hyrdroid and Nekros for Mesa, or the flavor of the week super-killer.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

Rushers wouldn't get resources... You still have to kill to do so. And what you're saying is people should only progress quickly if they build around progression. Otherwise, they don't deserve to. You're also supporting that Nekros should just be the desecrate bot, and you're arguing that the drop rate shouldnt be increased.

 

I never said that.  Where did I say that "people should ONLY progress quickly, if they build around progression."  (Well it kinda does make sense though, and I have no problem subscribing to that logic.)

 

I did ask earlier though, "What's wrong with people getting more resources, when modding to...  optimally get more resources?  XD"

 

I also never said anything about Nekros being only a desecrate bot.  I think it's sad that people don't realize terrify, soul punch (particularly soul survivor), and shadows of the dead are also awesome abilities.  However, that's a player problem no?

Edited August 5, 2015 by sushidubya

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

This won't solve any issues.

Given that kill rate is directly tied to drops, players *will* still choose frames purely for item acquisition. However, instead of that being the sideways step of Desecrate or Pilfering, it will simply be "Find frame with maximum kill rate".

You'll trade Hyrdroid and Nekros for Mesa, or the flavor of the week super-killer.

You mean like how players can now choose the fastest frames like Loki or Vanguard Rhino instead of taking the sideways step of using melee?

"This won't solve every issue" is very, very different from "this won't solve any issues". No solution will solve every problem, but this one will help.

Edited August 5, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[Phatose]

You mean like how players can now choose the fastest frames like Loki or Vanguard Rhino instead of taking the sideways step of using melee?

"This won't solve every issue" is very, very different from "this won't solve any issues". No solution will solve every problem, but this one will help.

 

It won't even solve your stated issue!  This solution quite literally fails to prevent people from choosing frames based on their acquisition ability, since they'll choose the fast killing frames for exactly those reason.  You'll still feel gimped if you're not using certain frames with certain abilities - it just changes those to "super-fast killing abilities" from "loot generator ones"

.

[SavageShulk]

Feel free to report me so I can have a good laugh about it but the only way this would be a decent topic is if the ONLY way to reliably get resources was the mod and nekros. But all these do is give extra. Which is exactly what they are supposed to do. What the hell are you even complaining about? Do you get mad because rush makes you run faster?

[CY13ERPUNK]

-1 OP

 

am i doing this right?

 

OT however nekros does need some luv - ie SP spawns temp shadows and dese becomes a duration based ground fx aoe and ULT minions stay until death or recast

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

...Do you get mad because rush makes you run faster?

 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

It won't even solve your stated issue!  This solution quite literally fails to prevent people from choosing frames based on their acquisition ability, since they'll choose the fast killing frames for exactly those reason.  You'll still feel gimped if you're not using certain frames with certain abilities - it just changes those to "super-fast killing abilities" from "loot generator ones"

.

Except that there's a huge, huge difference. From a gameplay standpoint, killing enemies is a goal. So players would be able to get resources faster by completing the objectives of the missions rather than building around having no effect on mission outcome. That's how games are supposed to work. Not "don't shoot the enemies" or "mod your abilities into worthlessness" to get more loot.

[Youre_Waifu]

What's my biggest gripe with pilfering swarm and desecrate? That it causes mods, frames, and abilities to be chosen based on their item acquisition ability and not their actual usefulness as mods, frames, and abilities.

 

But that is essentially the limit of the usefulness of those two frames. Hydroid and Nekros don't really have any other abilities going for them; the only time I've seen either used outside of farming is for AFKing puddle, and that even less now that nullifiers are a thing.

I would like a buff to resource/life support drops, but if that happens, both of those frames will still be used only to get even more loot unless they undergo a drastic rework that somehow makes them more useful in non-farming situations.

[SullyTheStalker]

These changes are something I've been asking for ever since Nekros came out.  Having an ability that basically amount to gambling with your energy to do something mildly irrelevant to affecting the flow of battle is not good design.  Sure, they buffed his other 3 abilities recently, and Desecrate does spawn health orbs, but the look-producing mechanic is still the only nail that Nekros' coffin needs to debase him to the degree of being a farm-frame, rather than an actual Warframe.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

The only real problem with Desecrate and Pilfering Swarm is the same problem that plagues Peacemaker; if you're just standing in one spot and spamming it all day, that's not actually playing the game. These abilities encourage inactivity. If these abilities were heavily skill based and required a great deal of action on the part of the player, there wouldn't be a problem. The fundamental concept of an ability giving you more loot isn't what's wrong here, what's wrong here is that these abilities motivate players to not actually play the game.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

The only real problem with Desecrate and Pilfering Swarm is the same problem that plagues Peacemaker; if you're just standing in one spot and spamming it all day, that's not actually playing the game. These abilities encourage inactivity. If these abilities were heavily skill based and required a great deal of action on the part of the player, there wouldn't be a problem. The fundamental concept of an ability giving you more loot isn't what's wrong here, what's wrong here is that these abilities motivate players to not actually play the game.

I don't think abilities should be used as loot-boosting methods for the same reason melee shouldn't have been used as a sprint booster. Also, having two abilities that say "these make you progress faster" forces players to choose between gameplay and progression when gameplay should cause the best progression on its own.

[Inez]

desecrate and pilfering swarm should be replaced, and the drop chances for all items should be globally buffed greatly. Then Hydroid should get a real augment (and players should get to choose between getting the new augment and a 20 or so core pack) and Nekros should get a rework.

TL;DR: just as tying player speed to melee wasn't a good thing, neither is tying item acquisition to frames/abilities/mods. Buff the global drop rate and free these items from being farmbots.

 

Are you serious? DE changed Pilfering Swarm specifically to slow down item acquisition. They want us to grind more.

 

While I 100% agree with you, asking for this is like asking the IRS if you could just not pay your taxes this year.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Inez

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Are you serious? DE changed Pilfering Swarm specifically to slow down item acquisition. They want us to grind more.

 

While I 100% agree with you, asking for this is like asking the IRS if you could just not pay your taxes this year.

The difference, and I can only hope (and only with the tiniest sliver of hope) DE can be brought to see it this way, is that they already allow players to speed up item acquisition through these items. Thus, removing the items and buffing drop chances would only keep our item acquisition at the same rate, only we'd be able to use what we want to get there (and those frames could be balanced around helping mission progress rather than reward acquisition).

[MJ12]

Loot manipulation mechanics are terrible game design. Blizzard realized this, which is why they removed them entirely from Diablo 3. You shouldn't have to trade combat effectiveness for faster gear acquisition. Increase global loot drops by 100 percent so loot flows about as quickly as it does if you had a Nekros on your team or a looting Hydroid, rework Hydroid and Nekros so they're not just loot-bots, and the game will be better for it.