So Wait... The Stalker Was Right? (Spoilers?)

[Leavith]

This is a good point.

For the most part, none of us can anwser that question.

The tenno came in the worst part of that war, when the orokin would do anything to win or simply survive.

The tenno only knew the darkest side of the orokin and from what we know they suffered alot.

I think they turned against the orokin for revenge.

Did they have waited the ending of the old war to:strike in the heart of the orokin empire,not having to deal with sentient while they do that or the tenno joined the sentient and this was a part of the plan.

These 3 possibility might have been motivated by hate.

these are not the only possibility.

Just a little bit of an add to you in my opinion i would say it wasn't really hate or revenge if that was the case we would have just let them died.

I feel it was more of reason of the Lotus involvement in setting us up to kill.

Not lets look at the Lotus what is her present occupation right now is basically being the Tenno operator because we truly need one we have no excellent high class hacking skills like the operator so her job is to provide support for the tenno.

Now if we think about it the Tenno did not always have this form of jobs we have today and we also did not always have the lotus by our side.

So someone had that job before the lotus.

I feel like Lotus was created to take the job of the past operator and taking the job of the operator she must have gotten some form of control over the tenno that allowed her a way to kill the Orokin. I made this thread you should take a look and tell me ur opinion

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/525865-why-and-how-were-the-orokin-empire-destroyed/

i apologies this is the link i give you which has the information but it has disappear suddenly not sure why.

and has appeared on a different link

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/525866-why-and-how-were-the-orokin-empire-destroyed/

never mind figured it out 

Edited September 9, 2015 by Leavith

[angias]

Just a little bit of an add to you in my opinion i would say it wasn't really hate or revenge if that was the case we would have just let them died.

I feel it was more of reason of the Lotus involvement in setting us up to kill.

Not lets look at the Lotus what is her present occupation right now is basically being the Tenno operator because we truly need one we have no excellent high class hacking skills like the operator so her job is to provide support for the tenno.

Now if we think about it the Tenno did not always have this form of jobs we have today and we also did not always have the lotus by our side.

So someone had that job before the lotus.

I feel like Lotus was created to take the job of the past operator and taking the job of the operator she must have gotten some form of control over the tenno that allowed her a way to kill the Orokin. I made this thread you should take a look and tell me ur opinion

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/525865-why-and-how-were-the-orokin-empire-destroyed/

i apologies this is the link i give you which has the information but it has disappear suddenly not sure why.

and has appeared on a different link

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/525866-why-and-how-were-the-orokin-empire-destroyed/

never mind figured it out 

Now what we need to discover is if the stalker was a tenno at this time.

[iquaniqua]

There should be a quest where you join either lotus, tshin or stalker and you assisinations change with the choice, teshin gives you different bosses and stalker sends you after tenno to pk them

[angias]

There should be a quest where you join either lotus, tshin or stalker and you assisinations change with the choice, teshin gives you different bosses and stalker sends you after tenno to pk them

seem interesting but there is a problem.

The stalker simply hate all the tenno/warframe.

[OkamiMilo]

Lotus is our queen, i will keep fighting for her

[angias]

Lotus is our queen, i will keep fighting for her

I'm with you but this tread talk about the lotus when she was..natah.

[Mak_Gohae]

I have very mixed feelings on the Lotus.

Does she want to help us? Yes.

Does she view us as her children? She says she does.

Is there any reason she'd betray the Tenno? Probably not.

That being said, I don't feel like she's gives us a reason to fight FOR her.

Don't get me wrong, keeping the balance of the universe is fine and all, but what's the point? What's the end goal?

Why not just wipe out the grineer, corpus, and infested? Why not just wipe the infested and let the grineer and corpus fight it out?

Or better yet, why even bother? What are we keeping balance for?

Who cares if the corpus own everything? Who suffers? The grineer?

And what happens if the grineer win? The corpus suffer.

But on the other side, why keep eternal balance? How is anything accomplished through keeping the universe in eternal war?

Ok. So? Why do the Tenno care? Why does the Lotus care?

I just feel like something's being left out of the equation.

 

Yeah, that's the problem with the story i Warframe.

There no actual goal for what is happening now and DE just goes on to bring up the pass.

Alad was the only one that had some real possibility cause he seemed to have control of the Infested and that could be real trouble but that hasn't gone forward in a while.

 

Should =/= would. He would just kill you, continue killing the rest of the Tenno, and then move on to hunting Lotus.

 

Dont know if he would kill us once we reveal the truth.

He liked us before, didnt he?

 

No point in arguing with him anymore. How can you take someone seriously when they are pro-slavery, and justifies slavery by completely dehumanizing them?

 

When did i state i was pro-slavery?

Do you know for fact that Grineer are human?

 

If you disagree with my viewpoint you can but dont treat your viewpoint as law and twist stuff others are saying.

[KozaTheShadow]

Yeah, that's the problem with the story i Warframe.

There no actual goal for what is happening now and DE just goes on to bring up the pass.

Alad was the only one that had some real possibility cause he seemed to have control of the Infested and that could be real trouble but that hasn't gone forward in a while.

 

 

Dont know if he would kill us once we reveal the truth.

He liked us before, didnt he?

 

 

When did i state i was pro-slavery?

Do you know for fact that Grineer are human?

 

If you disagree with my viewpoint you can but dont treat your viewpoint as law and twist stuff others are saying.

Alad V is just infested, he has no control he is just one of them. 

 

Who know what Stalker thought of us before but he wouldn't even give us a chance to speak now. 

 

The grineer are clones of humans. There are absolutely 0 aliens in the Warframe universe because even the Orokin are believed to be evolved humans and the Sentients are artificial. 

[Leavith]

Yeah, that's the problem with the story i Warframe.

There no actual goal for what is happening now and DE just goes on to bring up the pass.

Alad was the only one that had some real possibility cause he seemed to have control of the Infested and that could be real trouble but that hasn't gone forward in a while.

-I can agree with you here the lack of the story kind of limits us as the fact they cannot push forward i feel is because we really have no past of background for them to build of so i don't mind as for alad it was more as he could centralize the corruption of infested and control something but i don't think it was the infested after all the infestation basically took over him an corrupted him to.Now just looking at this you got understand that Alad was not attacked by the infested because he was infested

 

Dont know if he would kill us once we reveal the truth.

He liked us before, didnt he?

-Well stalker opinion can be seen at the day of the celebration right before he tell us we began to slaughter them it was more like he was solider and was watching his general get rewarded almost expressionless but recognizing how great the situation was

 

When did i state i was pro-slavery?-well when we start to defend that what the orokin did to the grineer are right we are kind of pro-slavery towards the grineer

Do you know for fact that Grineer are human?-well they are human and then their is stuff to back up they are human but that for some reason makes people forget how tamper they really are they could just have a human mold.When we look at the tubeman of regor event and tile set we get a glimpse at some funky looking grineer who are like machines and only have a grineer head human wouldn't do this to themselves.But i get the impression those are actually grineer scientist who have decided to extend their life and committed themselves to finding a cure so they turned themselves almost all machines to do so.

 

If you disagree with my viewpoint you can but dont treat your viewpoint as law and twist stuff others are saying.

-good point 

 

 

Alad V is just infested, he has no control he is just one of them. 

 

Who know what Stalker thought of us before but he wouldn't even give us a chance to speak now. 

 

The grineer are clones of humans. There are absolutely 0 aliens in the Warframe universe because even the Orokin are believed to be evolved humans and the Sentients are artificial. 

He does have control after all he took over the mesa infested frame.He would need some sort of control and he can control the way the infestation runs his way which is all he needs the infested seen to know what their job is

 

As for the stalker finding what he thought of us is difficult but we can simply say he is kind of complex character while we are still given a glimpse on his thought on us before the massacre in the day of celebration in his codex.Now you must also understand that we also get glimpse on what the Orokin now thought of us in the day of celebration

 

Now while the Grineer may be human as you do suggest the standard for the orokin to qualify as importance or being human has change.even the word human has change to being orokin basically in the warframe universe.

Now you have to understand the present culture defines what humans are in the warframe universe the Grineer might not have been consider human if anything they were more of cattle system compose of DNA randoms

 

The sentient might be artificial but i believe the Lotus shows us that they were evolving to be more human like the sentient.While the lotus might be special case we also get glimpse at others like her.And since we know and have example in the crewman on the sentient evolve pattern we can understand this was no easy task to get to this point meaning the Lotus and her people are specialize created Sentient that some smart sentient decided to work with to create this level of evo.

So yes if we consider the Grineer human who are artificial made workers we can consider the sentient the same well more like the lotus like sentient who are artificial made looking like humans.who seen to be smarter then the grineer

 

 

As for the origin of the grineer i made this thread and well you guys can take a look at it and get some insight on what others kind of think and what i think also feel free to discuss and join the conversation

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/526422-who-was-the-original-grineer/#entry5897635

[Mak_Gohae]

I think you're misinterpreting the lore here

The Tenno had kicked the everloving sh!t out of the Sentients. The few surviving Sentients couldn't actually fight back against the Tenno, so Natah was sent in to act as a backstabbing double-agent. Natah's job was to make the Tenno kill the Orokin and then each other because the Sentients couldn't kill the Tenno manually.

 

Thus, when Natah adopted the Tenno, she wasn't "hoping everyone would forget about everything". She was taking a gamble, banking on the Sentients surrendering because they were so weak and Natah had a full army of cryosleeping Tenno at her disposal. The gamble paid off, at least for a few hundred years or so

 

The lore states that the Orokin were beaten and the Tenno where the last chance.

It doesnt sound like they had the capabilities to completely destroy the other side.

Where do you get that the Tenno kill all Sentients?

 

It just sounds like the Sentients developed another tactics when the Tenno showed up.

And that tactic worked and they were left alone wherever they are. The troops left behind apparently didnt matter since they couldn't reproduce or they simply didnt care cause they are machines. 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, I think this is all I need to say. Any question about the sapience of the Grineer can be answered by quoting this post.

 

 

That post is talking about the current Grineer which is not part of the discussion.

[motorfirebox]

That post is talking about the current Grineer which is not part of the discussion.

I honestly can't tell if you're picking posts at random to reply to, or just actively ignoring the ones that address your points.

[KozaTheShadow]

He does have control after all he took over the mesa infested frame.He would need some sort of control and he can control the way the infestation runs his way which is all he needs the infested seen to know what their job is

 

As for the stalker finding what he thought of us is difficult but we can simply say he is kind of complex character while we are still given a glimpse on his thought on us before the massacre in the day of celebration in his codex.Now you must also understand that we also get glimpse on what the Orokin now thought of us in the day of celebration

 

Now while the Grineer may be human as you do suggest the standard for the orokin to qualify as importance or being human has change.even the word human has change to being orokin basically in the warframe universe.

Now you have to understand the present culture defines what humans are in the warframe universe the Grineer might not have been consider human if anything they were more of cattle system compose of DNA randoms

 

The sentient might be artificial but i believe the Lotus shows us that they were evolving to be more human like the sentient.While the lotus might be special case we also get glimpse at others like her.And since we know and have example in the crewman on the sentient evolve pattern we can understand this was no easy task to get to this point meaning the Lotus and her people are specialize created Sentient that some smart sentient decided to work with to create this level of evo.

So yes if we consider the Grineer human who are artificial made workers we can consider the sentient the same well more like the lotus like sentient who are artificial made looking like humans.who seen to be smarter then the grineer

 

 

As for the origin of the grineer i made this thread and well you guys can take a look at it and get some insight on what others kind of think and what i think also feel free to discuss and join the conversation

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/526422-who-was-the-original-grineer/#entry5897635

Alad V has control over the infested, yes, because he is infested. He cannot do anything else other than the consumption of other things(turning them infested) as indicated by Mesa, and during the speech we receive on the way to his boss fight where he indicates he wants to infect us too. 

 

We still know nothing about Stalker and I'm sure the South sure thought the North was evil when they got rid of slavery in US history. 

 

Society does not dictate science. They are humans, homo-sapiens, whatever. The Orokin are something that are still human but obviously different somehow (gold eyes being the only thing we know of right now). However, Grineer are clones. Of humans. Making them humans. They have the DNA of humans. They have the physiology of humans. They are mechanical mainly due to their genetic degradation due to excessive cloning but are, and will be forever, human until they die. The name Grineer is only a societal position the Orokin enforced.

 

The Sentients evolved yes but that wasn't the point of me mentioning that. The main point is: Grineer are human.   

Edited September 11, 2015 by KozaTheShadow

[HyperionII]

So... you know the Orokin were pretty much THE BASTERDS of the setting?

 

Why brake away from the Lotus?

Sure, she hide stuff and tells little, but the Syndicates work with her for the good of the people and we know the Grineer and Corpus aren't nice either.

[Leavith]

snip.   

     If you surpass humans like the orokin did do you still need to abide by human law?

if you can design your own human and their DNA the same way you can design shoes you use to step the ground does human life matter as much?

While you may address that Human are Humans it doesn't change the fact society and their perspective are define by humans.

Maybe your thinking of the wrong scenario but the Orokin are not compassionate humans who are run by perspective of all humans are equal.

If all they understand the Honest truth that even humans aren't equal to one another and that society does not dictate science so their is no reason why Orokin Who are more science oriented follow the rules of society.

I mean they made the Grineer i think one of the controversy of cloning for us is the fact that it morally incorrect 

just like slavery we find it morally incorrect your argument is basing the fact that it doesn't change the fact they are humans right but society does change the fact in how we treat each other.And in a way the Grineer couldn't be consider human with the new standard the Orokin had establish with what is human.Meaning the orokin would think those this lower race of people deserve the rights we have?SO they said no they are lesser then just smarter monkeys we will call them grineer and you only get orokin rights if your an orokin.But the fact being is that the Grineer were nothing more then Circus monkeys for the Orokin made to do work.

Human is word we define

Even science is define by us while we may not make scientific law or rules that govern our universe we do in fact name things and attach sentiments and feeling to words

AND HUMAN IS JUST A WORD WHOSE DEFINITION CAN BE EASILY CHANGE BY SOCIETY science will just say that the grineer are not human but just smarter monkeys.If the Orokin dictate which i believe they did because no one care or valued grineer life the way they valued their own.

 

Now that out of the way let get to the fact that 1st you say that alad V has no control then you say he does.Simple said you contradicted yourself or you have been brainwashed to change your mind.Or you made an assumption that isn't true being that the case i will humor you but in all honesty once you contradicted yourself was should i bother discussing with you or will you do it again and change your mind.If your gonna agree agree if your gonna disagree disagree but at least back it up and don't contradict.

 

Alad V is just infested, he has no control he is just one of them

Alad V has control over the infested, yes, because he is infested

Now just stating here we are inform during the mission that alad V made the hive to be able to expand the infestation and make it quicker inside the ships to take over it.And well Alad V has contorl over the virus genetics as he is able to alter it to make t infect machines which in my assumption creates duel effect.We cannot ignore the fact he has more control then what you suggest.

 

As for the stalker you mention we know nothing while i suggested we know something.I suggested we have an idea of what the stalker thinks of us because of his own codex entry ..so yeah we do know about the stalker and knowing even little means we know something.

 

And as for the sentient they are artificial and grineer are also artificial creature.You need to understand the Sentient can feel emotion just like lotus could and Lotus is sentient as we are inform in Natah.So are you gonna disregard as Sentient being able to evolve themselves to possible be human.

With how playfull and different the faction of the Warframe universe including us we can easily say the Word Human isn't define here or has any power.Leaving one thing clear that just as this is true is also true we cannot use our culture and our society to define warframes.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Leavith

[KozaTheShadow]

     If you surpass humans like the orokin did do you still need to abide by human law?

if you can design your own human and their DNA the same way you can design shoes you use to step the ground does human life matter as much?

While you may address that Human are Humans it doesn't change the fact society and their perspective are define by humans.

Maybe your thinking of the wrong scenario but the Orokin are not compassionate humans who are run by perspective of all humans are equal.

If all they understand the Honest truth that even humans aren't equal to one another and that society does not dictate science so their is no reason why Orokin Who are more science oriented follow the rules of society.

I mean they made the Grineer i think one of the controversy of cloning for us is the fact that it morally incorrect 

just like slavery we find it morally incorrect your argument is basing the fact that it doesn't change the fact they are humans right but society does change the fact in how we treat each other.And in a way the Grineer couldn't be consider human with the new standard the Orokin had establish with what is human.Meaning the orokin would think those this lower race of people deserve the rights we have?SO they said no they are lesser then just smarter monkeys we will call them grineer and you only get orokin rights if your an orokin.But the fact being is that the Grineer were nothing more then Circus monkeys for the Orokin made to do work.

Human is word we define

Even science is define by us while we may not make scientific law or rules that govern our universe we do in fact name things and attach sentiments and feeling to words

AND HUMAN IS JUST A WORD WHOSE DEFINITION CAN BE EASILY CHANGE BY SOCIETY science will just say that the grineer are not human but just smarter monkeys.If the Orokin dictate which i believe they did because no one care or valued grineer life the way they valued their own.

 

Now that out of the way let get to the fact that 1st you say that alad V has no control then you say he does.Simple said you contradicted yourself or you have been brainwashed to change your mind.Or you made an assumption that isn't true being that the case i will humor you but in all honesty once you contradicted yourself was should i bother discussing with you or will you do it again and change your mind.If your gonna agree agree if your gonna disagree disagree but at least back it up and don't contradict.

 

Now just stating here we are inform during the mission that alad V made the hive to be able to expand the infestation and make it quicker inside the ships to take over it.And well Alad V has contorl over the virus genetics as he is able to alter it to make t infect machines which in my assumption creates duel effect.We cannot ignore the fact he has more control then what you suggest.

 

As for the stalker you mention we know nothing while i suggested we know something.I suggested we have an idea of what the stalker thinks of us because of his own codex entry ..so yeah we do know about the stalker and knowing even little means we know something.

 

And as for the sentient they are artificial and grineer are also artificial creature.You need to understand the Sentient can feel emotion just like lotus could and Lotus is sentient as we are inform in Natah.So are you gonna disregard as Sentient being able to evolve themselves to possible be human.

With how playfull and different the faction of the Warframe universe including us we can easily say the Word Human isn't define here or has any power.Leaving one thing clear that just as this is true is also true we cannot use our culture and our society to define warframes.

I get that you're trying to get all meta on me, but you're really not thinking it through lol 

 

I did not say the Orokin surpassed humans, nor is that stated anywhere in the lore, they're just the same as the people who thought slavery were okay back in the 1800s and before that. 

 

Society is defined by humans yeah I get it. This is science we are talking, and the Orokin's OPINIONS of things are highly irrelevant. Humans are equal, we're all the same in the end, it's just that humans with more power put other humans below them and people like you enforce that. 

 

Cloning is only considered morally incorrect because it degrades the value of life in a way, why care about life if there's always gonna be more? 

 

Orokin can say all they want that something isn't human, the Grineer are still scientifically human. Human is a word we define, yes, but not in the sense you're thinking of. We gave things names in order to teach and explain, those names can change and so can their definition. My kidney could have been called a brain instead yes, but its function would never change, what it is would never change, only its name. 

 

That is the Stalker's point of view, I don't know about you but I would not trust the perspective of a genocidal, possibly fanatical, madman.

 

We can use our culture and society to define Warframe. Why? We made it, DE are humans not space aliens (...right DE? >.>) and irregardless Warframe is in the same universe as Dark Sector. Not everything carried over but Dark Sector took place on good ol Earth, with good ol humans and is based in good ol today. Warframe is miles and leagues into the future of Dark Sector but is still our universe. 

 

Man this off-topic.

[Monybags33]

Ya you know the orokin were awful right? They made the sentients, the made the infested to fight the sentients, then when the infested just started killing everyone they experimented on children to make the Tenno. They used the grineer as slaves and that's what made the grineer turn.

Like the orokin committed hella war crimes.

This is a ton of Warframe lore in a nutshell....

[TenguBlade]

I think the event you mentioned is coming in U18, or at least a quest that gives players the same choice.

[Leavith]

snip

i don't understand the 1st sentence not sure what you mean by meta.

 

I don't think i said that you said that Orokin surpass human.I said that.Orokin surpass human

I said based on the understanding that the Orokin had reach the point in their life were they could alter and re-engineer themselves with the technology they had created bringing themselves to their new evolution.While it may be artificial the fact that they are Better which is represented by their life spam and also by their technology we can easily put a stamp that says BETTER.Sometimes the lore doesn't need to say something have you so little faith tenno?Everyone knows action speak louder then words.Using their technology as they continued forward they removed handicaps from themselves like age,diseases,mental capacity,damage,and even more so their technology also flourish.

 

Why are human equals?Cause you suggest this or cause this is the things we always been taught.Like i mention Orokin is relevant because this is their world of that time not the present world we live in.Just like you bring up the 1800 that slavery was viewed as okay for the orokin slavery was viewed as okay.And i am not saying hey orokin are more powerfull so they are better their action and the things they made even their life shows they were better.You know their is saying that says so close but no cigar.While and Orokin can do the things human can do we humans cannot do the things the orokin can do no matter how much we tried.(this is just comparison between us and them)And you know what you call that being better.Being better is what gives you power.Only reason they failed was because their weapon or new worker as i would call them were able to evolve to be better then them.

 

Cloning is only considered morally incorrect because it degrades the value of life in a way, why care about life if there's always gonna be more? 

Humans are equal, we're all the same in the end,

 

1st now i am gonna ask are you gonna stick to this or are you contradict yourself later on?

because if you stick to your words right now you made contradiction and let me connect the dots for you.

if your bunch of clones right now in our day of age what value is their life you said it would be consider degraded because why care about life is there's always gonna be more..

Now if they were a bunch of clones that aren't even with the same mental capacity or the same level of advance genetics as the Orokin 

what value is their life but circus monkeys.....But you said Humans Are equal but this humans over here are clearly better while this ones are not.and not just that their Genetics differ greatly even the fact that while we never have encounter and Orokin and we encounter many grineer they are specialize in their job.

That is because the Orokin design the grineer to be the specialize at what they do and specialize at their work.No matter how you cut it the grineer are less.If we put attach the word Human and make Orokin the Human standard then the grineer would fall under monkey.

 

As for science lets not forget while a butterfly can look like moth that those not make them both butterfly or moth but insects.Which can easily be said about the grineer while the grineer may look like .....Never mind they don't....while the grineer may be consider human by you the Orokin don't fall under the same retro-expect because they design the Grineer they literly put the G for Genes in grineer.It was like 2 pinatas one is filled with totsie roles and the other one with nerds jolly ranchers totsie roles and other things.Simply said one PiNata is better then other.Now in this case this Pinata made the other pinata only giving them a body and totsie roles which was the ability to use tools and mimic.

 

Look i brought the stalker because that what this topic is about but your gonna need to see that you said We know nothing about the stalker...Knowing his perspective the way he looks and the perceptive as well as backstory is knowing something and i will also include his actions.

 

Look while is cute that you said hey we made Warframe so we can define it using our culture and society your being silly.

Warframe lore tells us many things that our society and culture would not find okay and that being said i could make a list of this things but you have the idea what i am talking about your not dumb.Simple said look at the fiction books people write look at the fairy tale we cannot define their culture and society using our rules we would need to understand their is different before we try to define it.While we can still compare our to theirs and doing this we can make definition of their society in comparison to ours.

If the society and culture of the Orokin was the same as our meaning if we could define it then that would either mean we were in the same level of this syfy species which i may suggest that yes dark sector may connect with us showing we share worlds but thats many years in the past just like in the 1800 slavery view was different compare to now .The Warframe world may take place in different time then Dark sector world.

And i am sure if you travel to the past to the 1800 culture would be different for you.just like if someone from the past travel to the future they would have to either conform or attempt to change it because is different.is like saying little red ridding hood should have wore the Cinderella slippers so she could find the prince to rescue her grandma from the big bad wolf.

We can easily say they are the same world were fairy and mystic creatures are real but 2 different stories and settings

Edited September 11, 2015 by Leavith

[Daliena]

It's really late and I'm about to head to bed, so I'll just leave one reply to the walls of text from Leavith.

If you can create intelligent life, that gives you a blank check to abuse it however you want? WHAT THE BLOODY.. I DON'T EVEN.. What sort of logic is that?! Even today if you cloned a decidedly non-sapient animal and then proceeded to horribly abuse it you'd be in trouble. Now try doing that to a human. Clone yourself a living, breathing, human and force him to be a slave. Say he's just created to work because you deny him any chance to ever make more of himself than working in a coal mine for you. This is the reason you keep seeing the Grineer of old as stupid. The Orokin never allowed them any chance to improve themselves because such things would be undesirable in a slave you kept for hard labor. Now we see them so much later, riddled with genetic defects limiting their potential further, yet if anything we all agree that they're even more intelligent, yah? Imagine if from the very beginning, before their faulty cloning processes began to wear them down over generations, they had been allowed to study and learn.

[CBAROG]

I honestly can't tell if you're picking posts at random to reply to, or just actively ignoring the ones that address your points.

Don't argue with him. It's useless.

 

It's really late and I'm about to head to bed, so I'll just leave one reply to the walls of text from Leavith.

If you can create intelligent life, that gives you a blank check to abuse it however you want? WHAT THE BLOODY.. I DON'T EVEN.. What sort of logic is that?! Even today if you cloned a decidedly non-sapient animal and then proceeded to horribly abuse it you'd be in trouble. Now try doing that to a human. Clone yourself a living, breathing, human and force him to be a slave. Say he's just created to work because you deny him any chance to ever make more of himself than working in a coal mine for you. This is the reason you keep seeing the Grineer of old as stupid. The Orokin never allowed them any chance to improve themselves because such things would be undesirable in a slave you kept for hard labor. Now we see them so much later, riddled with genetic defects limiting their potential further, yet if anything we all agree that they're even more intelligent, yah? Imagine if from the very beginning, before their faulty cloning processes began to wear them down over generations, they had been allowed to study and learn.

Well, actually, his point is that we can't apply our current ethics to humans living so far in the future. What you're describing is Mak's point of view. 

Although I don't like it, I have to agree with Leavith, since we can't force our moral on humans who live less than a century ago and Orokin live thousands, if not millions, years in the future.

Still, it doesn't make Orokin the good guys like Leavith says. The Orokin empire was as corrupted and vile as it could get so they got what they deserved.

[(XBOX)G R A V O C]

Here is my theory on the stalker and why he hates the Tenno -

So we know the Tenno are children who are/where experimented on and recruited by means yet unknown to us to fight a war that is not our war. We know the Orokin has done multiple bad acts, such as enslaving the Grineer, creating the Sentient, creating OR tinkering with the T-virus, and testing on children. We also know execution is a huge deal to both the Corpus and Orokin.

So with all of that being said - During the Great War, the Tenno must have found a way to organize and strategize in secret. They simotaniously executed all of the Orokin higher ups across the entire solar system, all on 'the 9th drum'. So this means that the Orokin did something worthy enough of their complete overthrow by the Tenno. Because as of right now, it seems the Tenno are either good in their core, or just pure survivalists. What the lore does not state though is whether or not the Tenno killed CIVILIANS. According to Stalker's lore, some walked while the rest slumbered. This means some Orokin must have survived. They are not completely extinct, just merely that their reign and governmental system had been crippled beyond repair.

So going back to the children (Tenno). The lore states that the ship is hidden. Well, it's stated that it hasn't returned, and the narrators ignorance of the ship and its contents is just more proof that the Orokin are hiding this ship for its unethical cargo. What this likely means is that the Orokin hierarchy is containing secrets from the general Orokin population. Much like say the CIA and all of America. A very small percent of people know very deep secrets that none of us will probably ever know. So it is fair to say that the average Orokin citizen, who is not affiliated with the War, or politics, or anything of that nature, could be completely ignorant of what the Tenno truly are, and what the Orokin had done to them. Basically, the civilians do not see Tenno who slay the Orokin as a means of self defense and survival. They see Tenno cold and heartlessly murdering the Orokin as a means of greed, selfishness, and personal gain.

Going back to the Stalker - The stalker is likely Orokin (save that discussion for another topic). The Stalker states that he is a low temple guardian. The stalker at the time was probably a young and opportunistic Orokin civilian that enlisted in service and began working his way up the ranks. Considering the sheer size of Derilect's, and their most likely permanent stay on the ships, it is likely that Derilect's were populated with civilians and various figures. This means that the Orokin probably had very good control of their civilians, using propaganda, and the Orokin's greatness alone as a means of sprouting Orokin patriotism and elitism. The Stalker probably fell into this, and saw everything 'as a sacrifice for the glory of the empire'. So to the stalker, either as a patriotic Orokin civilian, or a brainwashed service member, watched as the Tenno slayed everything he, and the Orokin people stood for. The fact that the Stalker refers to them as "The Tenno" rather than "Tenno" shows that he considers himself On a different scale than the Tenno. So basically, he's sitting there watching this whole slaughter go down, and he's thinking "how dare they do this! This is not their birthright to do! They are not US!"

So going back to the Tenno a little bit. Rhino Prime is a high temple guardian, which shows even the Tenno can aspire high up such as the Orokin. Also, the statues of Excalibur in the Derilect vaults shows that the Orokin general population see the Tenno as war heroes, saviors, even gods! Think of a gladiator, where the slave masters treat the gladiator like crap, the emperor and his politicians want him dead, but they cannot execute the gladiator, simply because the crowd loves him! The crowd would riot and revolt if the emperor were to go against their word. Now think if that Gladiator were to assassinate the emperor(assuming he was a loved emperor). Wouldn't the general public turn against the gladiator, and vilify him? So the point that I am attempting to get at is that the Orokin majority have the Tenno on a high platform, as the war heroes who are saving them from the infested and Sentient. The Orokin majority also don't know about the Tenno's upbringing and treatment. Only the hierarchies know about this, and when the Tenno revolt, it horrifies the general public, and rips the Tenno down from their thrones as war heroes, to betrayers.

Bouncing back to Stalker - While the Tenno slept in their Cryopod's for a very long time, the stalker stayed awake. He festered with hate, despair, and dread. He refused to forget and forgive the Tenno. He never saw beyond his limited box of knowledge that was available on the Orokin Derilect and their propaganda. After all that time, the Tenno awaken, and he can finally exact revenge. So in a sense, yes the Stalker is right, but only from his perspective. He sees murderers. While we see Tenno who freed themselves from captivity, and toppled a very corrupt empire. The Stalker will never stop his hunt, because there is no one to tell him.

Lotus is Sentient and has her own adgenda's, so it is unlikely that she would be the one to inform the Stalker of the 'true' story.

The Tenno have lost their memories. All they remember is how to use gun and blade. They have no knowledge of their past, and what they did. As outlined by the Stalker codex with the whole "you may have forgotten, but I have never forgotten" part. So the Tenno do not know why the Stalker hunts them, they just know he is a threat that needs to be addressed.

So final thoughts: I believe the Stalker is right about the Tenno, if you look at it from the perspective of a patriotic Orokin who most likely is brainwashed. But is the Stalker actually right? I don't think so. I think the Tenno are either good, or just survivalists. I don't think their intention was to murder in cold blood. I think they have a just reason for each murder they commit. Torture, slavery, and death of their people is a just enough reason to revolt.

[Mak_Gohae]

Lotus nor the Tenno remember. We both lost our memories for the most part I think.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lotus's memories have been corrupted as well. As for why the Lotus hasn't revealed everything she knows... maybe the Tenno just haven't asked!

 

 

 

 

 

How convenient, i just happen to not remember stuff and oh, by the way, the machine in your ship also has it's memory erased....

 

It appears like some one is hiding something. You cannot have that many sources being erased.

 

 

 

..Who were smart enough to use complex tools, voice abstract concepts such as threats, and understand when someone is trying to trick them. Give it up, guy, the Grineer were and are sapient, and enslaving them was slavery.

 

What complex tools where the original Grineer using? They were working in manual labour. You dont need a master's degree for that.

A threat is something special? Never heard a dog growl?

You never had a dog not trust you?

 

Grineer seem to be just as smart they needed to be for a creature made for work but that doesnt mean they are humans.

If you have a problem with using creatures at that level in intelligence i hope you dont have pets.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Mak_Gohae

[(PSN)NachoZissou]

Man, looking through this thread has made me realise how little I know or understand about this game beyond the practical aspects of it. I'm not a lore fiend at all, fictional history doesn't appeal to me, but it seems like you guys are getting something extra from the game and I kind of want a piece of that.

[UltimateHawkpie]

I personally think it'd be cool to become a lone player. Maybe add an extra side like Teshin who is a sort of neutral aspect who has no quarrel with the Stalker or the Lotus but at the same time shares the same enemies.

[Leavith]

It's really late and I'm about to head to bed, so I'll just leave one reply to the walls of text from Leavith.

If you can create intelligent life, that gives you a blank check to abuse it however you want? WHAT THE BLOODY.. I DON'T EVEN.. What sort of logic is that?! Even today if you cloned a decidedly non-sapient animal and then proceeded to horribly abuse it you'd be in trouble. Now try doing that to a human. Clone yourself a living, breathing, human and force him to be a slave. Say he's just created to work because you deny him any chance to ever make more of himself than working in a coal mine for you. This is the reason you keep seeing the Grineer of old as stupid. The Orokin never allowed them any chance to improve themselves because such things would be undesirable in a slave you kept for hard labor. Now we see them so much later, riddled with genetic defects limiting their potential further, yet if anything we all agree that they're even more intelligent, yah? Imagine if from the very beginning, before their faulty cloning processes began to wear them down over generations, they had been allowed to study and learn.

Now i understand what your saying yeah is not right it shouldn't be done is is not correct. And we think this because we are raised to value each life we deal with that is why murder is wrong in our culture cause life is valuable right.Now lets look at the orokin they kill themselves and their creation as simple as they come they don't value life as much as us my evidence the execution of the achemidis(can't spell worth crap here)who was in charge of the corpus project in the beginning of the crewman sys it make me wonder they executed that girl just cause her results were not okay probably.

Now just saying this i am gonna try to be an Orokin for a moment and at the same time i am try to explain the train of thought i am going with.

I am an Orokin counciller i am looking for a cheap way to have labor done and my people would feel happy so i order scientist to come up with the solution

I am an Orokin scientist i been tasked to come up with a solution for workforce that can be reliable and can be keeped under control so i decide clones are the best way

I am an Orokin miner who been using machines and have been dealing with low productivity and suddenly i get a batch of clones that all look alike and were given to me to work with.

I am an Orokin civilian the cost of things have gone down and the amount their is of them has also increased

They already don't value human life so why would they bother with clones is what i am saying while it may be wrong to us what they do for them is not but simple progress on the sum of the things they have done.

 

Now to the point i am trying t make the Grineer were made by the orokin they were made for purpose specialize workforce of miners who are able to learn their respective trade and are limited to learn any other form.As an example we have eviserator sys show us that their were more jobs then just mining but also cutting.

This would clearly mean that the as advance and as effective and efficient oriented they are hey design the grineer with limits example i can suggest to explain what i am saying is what if the Grineer brain was design to stop is growth when it reach a present 5 year old size development brain.Meaning they are stuck between feeling independent and feeling they must really on someone.In all forms the Grineer were specialized that they were given body to do their task and were taught by mimic and repetition their jobs.

If we were talking about normal blank check that would be correct what your trying to say but the Orokin didn't design the grineer to just be clones but clones with a job so they were engineer for their job.

Kind of like our kubrows they each have job and cannot do the other kubrow species job even if they are the simple thing any kubrow could do like fetch.

If you look at the feral kubrow sometimes you will see them carrying items in their mouth do you ever wonder how come a feral kubrow can do this but not our normal huras kubrows simple his genetics are specialize blocking his brain from having or thinking such task but being focus on his role and job.ANd just to say kubrow making tech originated from the orokin just as grineer making tech came from the orokin.

 

@GRAVOC

good logic it doesn't contradict lore and is good speculation so kubrows to u

Edited September 12, 2015 by Leavith