So Wait... The Stalker Was Right? (Spoilers?)

[Ninja-Gyles]

Now here is

Clearly you don't understand many things about animal behaviours. Yes, one may teach a dog to drive or teach a horse emulate the ability to understand a communication system (the list goes on) but one thing they lack is the ability to pass on that knowledge to other creatures. Humans (i.e. the Grineer) do have this ability. So, grineer can be train or teach other grineer how do tasks and communicate (if at a basic level), clones certainly don't know everything the moment they develop. And, as a side note, no matter the merits of the Orokin or the lack said merits of the Grineer, enslavement is inexcusable. No matter the curcumstances.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Ninja-Gyles

[Leavith]

Clearly you don't understand many things about animal behaviours. Yes, one may teach a dog to drive or teach a horse emulate the ability to understand a communication system (the list goes on) but one thing they lack is the ability to pass on that knowledge to other creatures. Humans (i.e. the Grineer) do have this ability. So, grineer can be train or teach other grineer how do tasks and communicate (if at a basic level), clones certainly don't know everything the moment they develop. And, as a side note, no matter the merits of the Orokin or the lack said merits of the Grineer, enslavement is inexcusable. No matter the curcumstances.

Now Why is enslavement in inexcusable?

see if the answer to this question is an opinion and not a fact is just our perceptive,culture,and society talking.

Which just like anywhere peoples perceptive,culture,and society change.So will the idea that people have of enslavement.Which in the warframe worlds many of the ideas they have of our morals and ethics have change.

While i may agree on this but their is the fact that animals can pass their knowledge to other animals but is just simple tiny things of course they do require human intervention for it to happend but that is the same thing said with the grineer orokin of course must intervene.

An example is when an Old Bull is placed with new Bull to drag the hose the New bull with be reckless but the old bull will correct the new bull so they can both pull at the same time and the job they are doing won't be harder.But this form of teaching is seen and is passed down from one generation to the other.

 

We have something call writting system which helps us pass more complex information animals don't really have one.

[Mak_Gohae]

YES WE NEED THREE GRAKATA

 

We need a Gunblade Grakata

 

Well some of the evidence given was of current grineer. And wouldn't the older grineer be better since they had less genetic degradation?

 

Hmmm, we dont know if the degradation applies to the brain.

From the little we saw they seem to not be that smart back then.

 

You know the Stalker wants to kill us, the Tenno, If you go up to him and say I hate her too, he'll still kill you the same.

 

To my knowledge we don't know who created Lotus and who gave her orders to kill us. Honestly I think it was the Orokin.

Orokin Created the Infested

Orokin Created the Sentients

Orokin experimented on children

Orokin enslaved the Grineer

Orokin used mind control

*My opinion, Orokin tasked Lotus to kill us.

 

They seem like friendly fellows.

 

Also, why Grak, because we don't have enough variants already? Its not even a Tenno / Orokin weapon.

 

Have you dont the Natah quest? Cause it's kind of clear there on who created the Lotus.

 

But the idea that the Orokin created some S------s to kill us after the war was over could be a little neat way to wrap this story up.

[motorfirebox]

What complex tools where the original Grineer using? They were working in manual labour. You dont need a master's degree for that.

A threat is something special? Never heard a dog growl?

You never had a dog not trust you?

 

Grineer seem to be just as smart they needed to be for a creature made for work but that doesnt mean they are humans.

If you have a problem with using creatures at that level in intelligence i hope you dont have pets.

They were working with power tools, which they understood well enough to use competently as weapons. They understood to put on protective gear for armor. They didn't simply "growl", they forced someone to perform a task for them through the use of a verbalized threat. They didn't simply distrust someone, they analyzed their behavior and compared it to the current situation to reach the conclusion that they were being lied to.

 

The only way your argument works is if you boil complex behaviors down into their absolute simplest form. You might as well be saying that human speech doesn't prove intelligence, because dogs barking is the same thing. Or that using a computer doesn't prove intelligence because some primates use sticks to dig for termites.

Edited September 15, 2015 by motorfirebox

[Mak_Gohae]

The lack of self-awareness in most of those animals means they are not as intelligent as standard Grineer.

 

 

 

But there are animals that are. So this is not something unique.

 

And yeah, humans are slavers (no other species on Earth has ever engaged in slavery for obvious reasons), even nowadays with sex slaves and slave workers, child labor, etc.

 

Ants take in slaves.

 

That's racist xD

 

But seriously, with a proper upbringing they are capable of great things: genetic manipulation, space travel, planetary colonization ... I think the only reason there's no Grineer art is because of their militaristic culture, because they surely do have the potential for it.

Enslaving a race of such intelligent beings (even if you created them to be your tools) is pretty messed up.

 

 

Remember kids, if you are going to create life to do your chores, create automatons or something similarly stupid :P

 

Do we know that it's upbringing that created the smart Grineer?

Because if it's upbringing how come they seem to be mostly dumb?

Given that they are clones it's likely that they just clone the mutants that happen to pop in smart. There are many reason for the possibility of smart Grineer.

[Mak_Gohae]

Why would i turn against the first who did something good for us?

 

What good did she do?

I hope you are not talking about being woken up because she was the one that put us in that situation.

 

There should be a quest where you join either lotus, tshin or stalker and you assisinations change with the choice, teshin gives you different bosses and stalker sends you after tenno to pk them

 

Yeah, hopefully this is how it eventually turns out. I want another controller.

 

And PKing should be optional. Maybe it's like Nightmare mission where there are a couple of nodes where one person from the Stalker army can pop in and hunt for a target. Of course, there are better rewards for those missions.

[Daliena]

Besides waking us up, how about NOT killing us like she was supposed to, which you always hang onto so dearly? She was specifically sent to 1) use us to kill the Orokin and 2) Kill us once that was done. She refused to carry out step #2. And then with us stuck in this new age, who helps us get our bearings? The Lotus. Who's a near-omniscient mission control that leads us to stamp out threats like Hek's Balor Fomorians -before- they can reach their full power and run rampant over us? The Lotus.

Hell, in what remains of Mirage's backstory she tried to protect her from being eliminated by the other Sentient. (Inb4 "That's just a lie she tells you!")

The Stalker, meanwhile, has not only been sent out to kill us, he has repeatedly -tried- to do that. By any possible measure of logic, The Stalker is far more interested in killing us than The Lotus ever was. And I highly doubt that hundreds or thousands of years of hatred that led to him existing for the sole purpose of hunting us down would be let go if we simply say "Hey, our bad, we were totally tricked and/or controlled into doing it!". It was still Tenno blades that cut down his beloved empire, and that's assuming he'd even listen, much less believe, anything we said. How the blazes would we prove any of it?

Teshin might be atleast a viable alternative, but mama Lotus is my choice. You can criticize her for choosing to spare us out of a weird desire to have children, even adopted ones, but the alternative is that she'd have killed us like she was supposed to in the first place.

Also, I agree with her questions presented here. Get on it, DE. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=514083484

Edited September 16, 2015 by Daliena

[Rhundis]

I will always and forever be in line with the Orokin. They got some snazzy moon bases and their primes are the best ever.

I've made my choice, have you?

[Mak_Gohae]

Alad V is just infested, he has no control he is just one of them. 

 

Who know what Stalker thought of us before but he wouldn't even give us a chance to speak now. 

 

The grineer are clones of humans. There are absolutely 0 aliens in the Warframe universe because even the Orokin are believed to be evolved humans and the Sentients are artificial. 

 

I dunno, Alad seems to appear fine in several occasions. I know "Lotus" says that he is just infested but i dont trust a liar.

 

And it's time to start talking. Maybe one of the times that we beat them we secretly slip a video of "Lotus" revealing the truth and some contact info.

 

There are zero aliens in Warframe but the Orokin can create new creatures.

 

He-well when we start to defend that what the orokin did to the grineer are right we are kind of pro-slavery towards the grineer

 

The only thing the Orokin did with the Grineer is creating a workforce.

And im not down with the idea that you cant create a workforce. Specially since humans have been using beast of burden for a long time.

 

-well they are human and then their is stuff to back up they are human but that for some reason makes people forget how tamper they really are they could just have a human mold.When we look at the tubeman of regor event and tile set we get a glimpse at some funky looking grineer who are like machines and only have a grineer head human wouldn't do this to themselves.But i get the impression those are actually grineer scientist who have decided to extend their life and committed themselves to finding a cure so they turned themselves almost all machines to do so.

 

I havent seen anything that backs up they are humans besides the fact that they look humanoid.

And this just brings up the question, again, what is human? Maybe the Grineer are revived Neanderthals?

So they are some sort of different type of human? Kind of like the Time Machine when the traveler ended up in the future with the Eloi and Morlocks. Those are two paths humanity took but are they humans anymore?

 

Maybe the Corpus vs Grineer is the second  Neanderthals vs Homosapien war!

Maybe the smart Grineer are actually half Corpus. They took Corpus ladies and had babies that contributed smarts.

Maybe the Corpus Techs are half Grineer babies that were stolen back by the Corpus!

[Leavith]

Okay mak in the eyes of the grineer what were they to the orokin.slaves.in the eyes of the orokin they were a created workforce.and for your assumption if your gonna regard mine that has physical evidence compare to your that just really plain metaphors and comparisons .then you can easily say you also have no base to back you up that corpus were taken by the grineer.while is not impossible is the same as mine is not impossible but now here we are just discussing ideas.and for the record the grineer were the orokin slaves that doesn't change is just that slavery of lesser race is viewed as okay for their time.if you want to have better picture free will isn't something they stood for just look at the neural sentry in the void and the eviscerator sys I believe it mentions corrupted.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Leavith

[Leproxia]

Lotus is actually Clem.
The Tenno are Clem
The Twin Queen's are actually Clem
Clem.

[Mak_Gohae]

So... you know the Orokin were pretty much THE BASTERDS of the setting?

 

Why brake away from the Lotus?

Sure, she hide stuff and tells little, but the Syndicates work with her for the good of the people and we know the Grineer and Corpus aren't nice either.

 

I dont think the Syndicates are working with her, they just hiring us to do stuff for them like anyone else.

 

 

It's really late and I'm about to head to bed, so I'll just leave one reply to the walls of text from Leavith.

If you can create intelligent life, that gives you a blank check to abuse it however you want? WHAT THE BLOODY.. I DON'T EVEN.. What sort of logic is that?!

 

God logic. Are you saying you are better than a god??!??!

 

Even today if you cloned a decidedly non-sapient animal and then proceeded to horribly abuse it you'd be in trouble. Now try doing that to a human. Clone yourself a living, breathing, human and force him to be a slave. Say he's just created to work because you deny him any chance to ever make more of himself than working in a coal mine for you. This is the reason you keep seeing the Grineer of old as stupid. The Orokin never allowed them any chance to improve themselves because such things would be undesirable in a slave you kept for hard labor. Now we see them so much later, riddled with genetic defects limiting their potential further, yet if anything we all agree that they're even more intelligent, yah? Imagine if from the very beginning, before their faulty cloning processes began to wear them down over generations, they had been allowed to study and learn.

 

You open with abuse then go on to show what actually was happening. Why did you open with abuse?

They created a workforce and that's all it happened. The same that us humans have been doing on this planet with animals  put to work. Big difference, of course, is that the Orokin didnt actually grab an animal and made him work, they created a creature specifically for that.

 

Why does the creation of a creature for work need to include paying for their college?

[Tostov]

Dang Mak, you really wanna take stalker's Hate right in the Oro huh?

Anyway, some other clues to the Orokin nature lie within both the single mindedness of cephalons, and quite a lot about Ordis. Firstly, Ordis' alternate-personality lines are very brutal, often riling statements that expect the enemy no quarter, a very imperialistic view. Secondly he refers to himself from a third person perspective, which is often used to designate a difference between individuals at a societal level.

Another instance of this is in the prime codex entries. The orokin were very fond of councils, often with a clear air of superiority towards those in charge. Considering the information we have, disobedience or even disappointment of superiors would likely result in severe penalties to those responsible for it, more likely at many levels or society.

Anyway, about creating the grineer and the ethical concerns with it. Consider this: Orokin had advanced enough robotics to easily create simple task based robots with a single human overseer easily managing tasks between them, likely with subroutines for additional safety. Why then, would they create a living, breathing creature with far more intelligence than required for such a task? Not only that, but the corrupted (i.e. Void tower defenders) were a present force and technology before the sentients were ever an issue. You can argue slavery of grineer with such limited evidence.

However, the void control device clearly violates something's conciseness, something that is really, quite undeniably not a tool of a harmonious and giving society. It's a tool for forcing your will upon others, for perverting their thoughts and wills with your own. And in relation to Alad V and infestation, it's quite clear that his affliction isn't "nothing", at times, he very clearly struggles to seperate himself from the genral infested consumption.

Even if we look at positive aspects of the society (the two "sisters" who could heal with their mind), it becomes pretty clear that they were often just treated as cogs in the gigantic Orokin machine, to be switched or disposed of as required. That's the over-aching effect of the Orokin, a tool for each purpose, something that in a freedom orientated society, undoubtly seems bad. The grineer just happen to represent that line of thought so well.

Remember, the Orokin society as a whole was corrupted, decayed by ignorance and short shortsightedness. However, that doesn't mean that every person who made it up was bad. But it certainly means that not every person who was in it was good either. It's often said that power corrupts, and so the fastest way to rid corruption is to cut off that which has the most power. The Echelon based society of the Orokin meant that when the tenno cut down the leaders and their golden robes, they didn't just kill the higher ups, they also annhiliated the whole tennet of what "Orokin" was.

The stalker likely believed in this system, and perhaps thought it was of good intentions, even if they knew it was flawed as a whole. Perhaps they were just idealistic, and didn't realise the state of decay within the system, because they had information witheld. Regardless of why they first fell to the grudge, we can probably say for certain that the stalker despises the tenno, for no other reason than to despise them. The fact that they became the destroyer of something the stalker so cherished was likely why the grudge was formed. Many, many years of torment, unable to retaliate against his archenemies likely didn't do too well for the stalker's phsyche anyway, especially as the system plunged once more into chaos, a concept potentially completely foreign to the stalker before then.
 

Finally, there's little question that the Tenno are undoubtedly the fruits of the Zarman experiments or potentially successive ones of similar methods. Given the concept of Oro, and the potential spiritual link the kids had to proto-rhino, it's not hard to potentially ascertain as to why the Tenno are versed in nearly nothing other than medatative and combat practices, and why "Tenno culture" is so centred on such things. Because, the Tenno, seen as weapons by the Orokin, were treated as weapons by the Orokin.

That which is "Tenno" was likely the emptied "Souls"(Concesness/thougnts/'that which might consist of a person in no corpereal form) of those children who had been exposed to the void. The warframes are meley a way of channeling that volatile and near limitless power. It's why you can revive warframes, or why Mesa could've been infested, or why Alad V can take control of your warframe. In the end, it's a glorified suit of armor. As an example, the stalker uses warframe based armor, and the zanuka project utilised warframe parts in its construction. The reason mirage "Died" was likely because this soul, this force which powered it, was completely and utterly annihilated, not because the warframe was destroyed.

Also, implying you decide the logic of a "God", top kek. Are you saying that you have a right to decide what that is?

Edit: Err, whoops, I wrote a wall...

Edited September 17, 2015 by Tostov

[UrielColtan]

Revenge, or perhaps simple correction. He used the words "riven" (broken) and "reclaimed", which may indicate that they'd be more interested in getting her back and trying to fix whatever they think happened to her than kill her, but that's just baseless speculation.

It WILL be something to see how Lotus handles this en masse Sentient awakening when it happens.

Likely, it reminds me somewhat of that one Clayface episode of Batman and Robin TAS, where an accidental female girl clone of Clayface is featured and he is trying to reclaim her. Pretty heartbreaking episode.

Edited October 18, 2015 by UrielColtan

[UrielColtan]

The G and C problems have EVERYTHING to do with "Lotus."

I forget if they changed the recent tutorial but before the opening of the game consist of a team of tenno taking us, the players, away from the Grineer. "Lotus" CONSTANTLY sends us on missions where we stop G and C from gaining Warframe-tech or advancing their own.

The excuse the "Lotus" is maintaining the balance but in fact we are just continuing the old mission of destabilizing the system.

If we leave "Lotus" and just help everyone advance everyone should be happy.

Im sure Stalker will be like, "Shhh, Shhhh, Shhh, haaaah-haaaah, haaah! What do you want to talk about, Tenno?Shhh, Shhhh, Shhh, haaaah-haaaah, haaah"

"Dude, we were tricked! The "Lotus" is a sentient and the reason we kill the Orokin is because it was her job to do. I dont remember how cause she probably stole our memories, but it was all her fault. So now some will like to join you in stopping this "Lotus." Also, there's some that want to stay as freelancers. So what do you say?

"Shhh, Shhhh, Shhh, haaaah-haaaah, haaah.......... Okay. Here's a free Stalker skin Shhh, Shhhh, Shhh, haaaah-haaaah, haaah."

He will be cool about it.

Just randomly threw that in cause im making the Twin Graks right now. Could be anything else.

Second time some one is posting this.

Without the "Lotus" sending us to mission to constantly stop them they will likely just ignore us or just hire us.

Or we can work with them to help everyone.

And didnt Alad V take control of the Infested? Maybe Tenno can control the Infested and drive them away. We will be all like the new Litch King.

BTW, we are currently creating chaos. What do we actually do but continue to hinder progress?

This is what "Lotus" did when she got here.

The heck are you on about? Vor wanted to carve us up and do experiments, and the queens simply want us dead. We have no future in that empire`s eyes. So you are god damned right Tenno came in to help us at Lotus request, as well they should hqve. And Grineer are a military complex, not some race of civilians, they exist only to conquer colonies. The ones who rebel like the Steel Meridian chick or Clem are the only ones worth working with.

Corpus are barely any differnt, they have rebels like Darvo or Perrin sequnce but the faction itself cares about nothing but profit and won`t hesitate to sacrifice bodies to get it.

Nef and Alad were collecting and selling Tenno/Tenno parts, and we already work with reasonable splinters of the corpus faction like Black Seed, at the request of Lotus.

Another poster had it right on the money. The Grineer and Corpus are not the unfortunate civilians of the galaxy. They are military complexes and private military corporations. They enslave colonies and chew up the civilians that the Steel Meridian lady is talking about. They just want to use Tenno and Orokin tech for furthering that purpose, so of course we stop them from getting their hands on that stuff.

Edited September 18, 2015 by UrielColtan

[UrielColtan]

Dang Mak, you really wanna take stalker's Hate right in the Oro huh?

Anyway, some other clues to the Orokin nature lie within both the single mindedness of cephalons, and quite a lot about Ordis. Firstly, Ordis' alternate-personality lines are very brutal, often riling statements that expect the enemy no quarter, a very imperialistic view. Secondly he refers to himself from a third person perspective, which is often used to designate a difference between individuals at a societal level.

Another instance of this is in the prime codex entries. The orokin were very fond of councils, often with a clear air of superiority towards those in charge. Considering the information we have, disobedience or even disappointment of superiors would likely result in severe penalties to those responsible for it, more likely at many levels or society.

Anyway, about creating the grineer and the ethical concerns with it. Consider this: Orokin had advanced enough robotics to easily create simple task based robots with a single human overseer easily managing tasks between them, likely with subroutines for additional safety. Why then, would they create a living, breathing creature with far more intelligence than required for such a task? Not only that, but the corrupted (i.e. Void tower defenders) were a present force and technology before the sentients were ever an issue. You can argue slavery of grineer with such limited evidence.

However, the void control device clearly violates something's conciseness, something that is really, quite undeniably not a tool of a harmonious and giving society. It's a tool for forcing your will upon others, for perverting their thoughts and wills with your own. And in relation to Alad V and infestation, it's quite clear that his affliction isn't "nothing", at times, he very clearly struggles to seperate himself from the genral infested consumption.

Even if we look at positive aspects of the society (the two "sisters" who could heal with their mind), it becomes pretty clear that they were often just treated as cogs in the gigantic Orokin machine, to be switched or disposed of as required. That's the over-aching effect of the Orokin, a tool for each purpose, something that in a freedom orientated society, undoubtly seems bad. The grineer just happen to represent that line of thought so well.

Remember, the Orokin society as a whole was corrupted, decayed by ignorance and short shortsightedness. However, that doesn't mean that every person who made it up was bad. But it certainly means that not every person who was in it was good either. It's often said that power corrupts, and so the fastest way to rid corruption is to cut off that which has the most power. The Echelon based society of the Orokin meant that when the tenno cut down the leaders and their golden robes, they didn't just kill the higher ups, they also annhiliated the whole tennet of what "Orokin" was.

The stalker likely believed in this system, and perhaps thought it was of good intentions, even if they knew it was flawed as a whole. Perhaps they were just idealistic, and didn't realise the state of decay within the system, because they had information witheld. Regardless of why they first fell to the grudge, we can probably say for certain that the stalker despises the tenno, for no other reason than to despise them. The fact that they became the destroyer of something the stalker so cherished was likely why the grudge was formed. Many, many years of torment, unable to retaliate against his archenemies likely didn't do too well for the stalker's phsyche anyway, especially as the system plunged once more into chaos, a concept potentially completely foreign to the stalker before then.

Finally, there's little question that the Tenno are undoubtedly the fruits of the Zarman experiments or potentially successive ones of similar methods. Given the concept of Oro, and the potential spiritual link the kids had to proto-rhino, it's not hard to potentially ascertain as to why the Tenno are versed in nearly nothing other than medatative and combat practices, and why "Tenno culture" is so centred on such things. Because, the Tenno, seen as weapons by the Orokin, were treated as weapons by the Orokin.

That which is "Tenno" was likely the emptied "Souls"(Concesness/thougnts/'that which might consist of a person in no corpereal form) of those children who had been exposed to the void. The warframes are meley a way of channeling that volatile and near limitless power. It's why you can revive warframes, or why Mesa could've been infested, or why Alad V can take control of your warframe. In the end, it's a glorified suit of armor. As an example, the stalker uses warframe based armor, and the zanuka project utilised warframe parts in its construction. The reason mirage "Died" was likely because this soul, this force which powered it, was completely and utterly annihilated, not because the warframe was destroyed.

Also, implying you decide the logic of a "God", top kek. Are you saying that you have a right to decide what that is?

Edit: Err, whoops, I wrote a wall...

Oh dear not this non corporeal consiouness thing again, that is so boring and detached from imprinting player identity on to the Tenno. We bleed and breathe and can be killed, like Mirage, we are not mere shells. There is no point in putting us in cryostasis if we are just shells. We can revive because thats part of a power we have and can learn, as Tenshin points out, like multiple other corporeal beings in fiction.

Stalker, is probably like Tenshin, a faux Tenno, who clearly has a body. And Infested Mesa didn`t even have a Tenno in it, it was being puppeted by infested, as pointed out by Lotus.

Edited September 18, 2015 by UrielColtan

[Tostov]

Oh dear not this non corporeal consiouness thing again, that is so boring and detached from imprinting player identity on to the Tenno. We bleed and breathe and can be killed, like Mirage, we are not mere shells. There is no point in putting us in cryostasis if we are just shells. We can revive because thats part of a power we have and can learn, as Tenshin points out, like multiple other corporeal beings in fiction.

Stalker, is probably like Tenshin, a faux Tenno, who clearly has a body. And Infested Mesa didn`t even have a Tenno in it, it was being puppeted by infested, as pointed out by Lotus.

I don't understand how it's detached. In essence, the actions the player takes are that of the Tenno. I don't find it detached at all, but then again, the perspective one takes on a story is a very subjective thing. 

 

The reason cryostatis is so important is because there is a strong link between the warframe and the tenno. It's why protecting tenno in cryopods is vital, and why looting them while still in the pod is very much more an issue for a tenno involved. Without a spare body to hop to, where are they supposed to go?

And the reason they were intially put in cryostatis is unknown. But judging from recent quests, it may have been a protective measure on both the origin system and the tenno's part. Buried forgotten things are more often easily hidden. The tenno would be stopped from causing further inital chaos, they would lack as strong of a retribution from the empire, and the sentients might not come to find out why their agent failed to complete the plan if it looked like the tenno disappeared.

And the mesa point is exactly it. Warframes are warframes, tenno are tenno. A warframe can be killed, as can a tenno, but it's not done in the same way. A warframe is more a piece of equipment. It's like a biotech set of power armor. Whether the stalker's abillties stem from his warframe or perhaps his nature and what he is isn't something we know yet.

Tenshin is a faux tenno, as referred as by a grineer scientist. And he does sort of pretend to follow tenno culture, that may be the aspect. It might be that he's actually a badass who can wear warframes somehow, or maybe he possess enhanced combat abillities. In any sense, we don't know yet, because he ain't doing stuff combat wise like the stalker is, and honestly, I'm not quite sure tyl regor is hugely knowledgable about tenshin, but maybe he is.

Wait, also, who else do we know of whom can revive themself. Tenshin notes that there are others who can do it, and that you need to annihilate their Oro, which requires an Oro of your own. The soul thing I'm thinking of is something like the Oro, which is that which powers the revial process and powers of the being. That's the non-corpeal part that I sort of figure. And there's no guarentee that the sentients don't possess Oro either, or some manner of manipulating it, especially considering how well known they were for manipulating things and adapting, explaining why mirage is still completely killed.

Limbo, in the same sense sort of prevents his own revival by utterly ripping himself through the void and across the entire origin system. In this instance, it's likely that even if his Oro survived the cataclysmic event, it would have been scattered across the system.

Regardless, this is just stuff I like to think, I did do a bit of aggressiveness at the start and end of the last post, which was a bit bad, but honestly, that's the way it is with this sort of stuff. If we didn't get worked up about it, it wouldn't be so great. I mean, sure, I'm just throwing up concepts and seeing what sticks for me, and I could be completely wrong, but it's the guessing and reasoning as to why it happens that's enjoyable.

Also, on a final note, don't forget you can just edit out the content of a quote if it's especially big.

TL;DR : Oro is the non-corpeal core of the tenno, warframes and tenno are different things, tenshin/stalker are of questionable tennoness. Everyone playing guessing game as to what we are as tenno is really cool, makes sense lore-wise (tenno are meditative as one aspect of their culture), and in the end, whether we're right or wrong doesn't matter too much, and hell, I could be completely wrong in my views.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Tostov

[Mak_Gohae]

Man, looking through this thread has made me realise how little I know or understand about this game beyond the practical aspects of it. I'm not a lore fiend at all, fictional history doesn't appeal to me, but it seems like you guys are getting something extra from the game and I kind of want a piece of that.

 

The game doesnt do a good job at presenting it's lore.

We get are getting an "extra something" because take in every little bit of info that appears. And this requires a bit of work because it required you to look for it.

 

They should start presenting basic info by having a set of 5 minute vids explaining the game.

 

Clearly you don't understand many things about animal behaviours. Yes, one may teach a dog to drive or teach a horse emulate the ability to understand a communication system (the list goes on) but one thing they lack is the ability to pass on that knowledge to other creatures. Humans (i.e. the Grineer) do have this ability. So, grineer can be train or teach other grineer how do tasks and communicate (if at a basic level), clones certainly don't know everything the moment they develop. And, as a side note, no matter the merits of the Orokin or the lack said merits of the Grineer, enslavement is inexcusable. No matter the curcumstances.

 

Uh... animals do teach the next generation how to do stuff. Do you think that animals randomly know how to do everything because nature?

[UrielColtan]

I don't understand how it's detached. In essence, the actions the player takes are that of the Tenno. I don't find it detached at all, but then again, the perspective one takes on a story is a very subjective thing.

The reason cryostatis is so important is because there is a strong link between the warframe and the tenno. It's why protecting tenno in cryopods is vital, and why looting them while still in the pod is very much more an issue for a tenno involved. Without a spare body to hop to, where are they supposed to go?

And the reason they were intially put in cryostatis is unknown. But judging from recent quests, it may have been a protective measure on both the origin system and the tenno's part. Buried forgotten things are more often easily hidden. The tenno would be stopped from causing further inital chaos, they would lack as strong of a retribution from the empire, and the sentients might not come to find out why their agent failed to complete the plan if it looked like the tenno disappeared.

And the mesa point is exactly it. Warframes are warframes, tenno are tenno. A warframe can be killed, as can a tenno, but it's not done in the same way. A warframe is more a piece of equipment. It's like a biotech set of power armor. Whether the stalker's abillties stem from his warframe or perhaps his nature and what he is isn't something we know yet.

Tenshin is a faux tenno, as referred as by a grineer scientist. And he does sort of pretend to follow tenno culture, that may be the aspect. It might be that he's actually a badass who can wear warframes somehow, or maybe he possess enhanced combat abillities. In any sense, we don't know yet, because he ain't doing stuff combat wise like the stalker is, and honestly, I'm not quite sure tyl regor is hugely knowledgable about tenshin, but maybe he is.

Wait, also, who else do we know of whom can revive themself. Tenshin notes that there are others who can do it, and that you need to annihilate their Oro, which requires an Oro of your own. The soul thing I'm thinking of is something like the Oro, which is that which powers the revial process and powers of the being. That's the non-corpeal part that I sort of figure. And there's no guarentee that the sentients don't possess Oro either, or some manner of manipulating it, especially considering how well known they were for manipulating things and adapting, explaining why mirage is still completely killed.

Limbo, in the same sense sort of prevents his own revival by utterly ripping himself through the void and across the entire origin system. In this instance, it's likely that even if his Oro survived the cataclysmic event, it would have been scattered across the system.

Regardless, this is just stuff I like to think, I did do a bit of aggressiveness at the start and end of the last post, which was a bit bad, but honestly, that's the way it is with this sort of stuff. If we didn't get worked up about it, it wouldn't be so great. I mean, sure, I'm just throwing up concepts and seeing what sticks for me, and I could be completely wrong, but it's the guessing and reasoning as to why it happens that's enjoyable.

Also, on a final note, don't forget you can just edit out the content of a quote if it's especially big.

TL;DR : Oro is the non-corpeal core of the tenno, warframes and tenno are different things, tenshin/stalker are of questionable tennoness. Everyone playing guessing game as to what we are as tenno is really cool, makes sense lore-wise (tenno are meditative as one aspect of their culture), and in the end, whether we're right or wrong doesn't matter too much, and hell, I could be completely wrong in my views.

I can`t think of anything more alienating than being some random catatonic in a pod controlling a mere golem or us being some paltry magic orb of mundane feature. Might as well be some boring Cephalon if that is the case.

I recall Steve saying he wanted players to picure people like them inside of the frames and that a Tenno within a frame could even have the same appearance as he did when he was younger and had hair.

DE constantly enable the notion that people inhabit the frames. The rare art they even induct into the codex is also typically of helmetless Tenno. People being inside the frames is a notion DE seem to want to support.

The Tenno in cryopods are just treated like other Tenno that have yet to be woken up, like you when you first start the game. We have our Warframe on too, I see little reason in cryo freezing a golem if thats all we are and we can just make another frame, unless there is actually a body inside.

Its stated nowhere that the Tenno we defend in cryopods, are the ones controlling us either. At best, we probably have a psychic link, as the Rhino codex seems to hint at that, but we are treated individually overall.

Furthermore, Excal codex suggest that actual people have waframes built around them. Ember and Rhino codex further supports that we have the specific powers of certain warframes even without being inside one.

Arid Fear Victory also mentions Vor pulling corpses out of the warframes, so I think its safe to suggest that we are not mere abstract energy.

We use energy called "Oro", there is a difference.

It is the Macguffin Chi, the Ki, the Chakra, the Haki, the Lifestream, the N.O., or the Grimoire of the Tennos and whoever else used it.

Just because people utilise the afformentioned special energies, does not mean they don`t have bodies.

Besides, bleeding and breathing suits kind of defeats the purpose of empty golems.

Might as well be actual people in them if they are going to have such vulnerabilities.

Edited September 19, 2015 by UrielColtan

[SilentMobius]

The Tenno in cryopods are just treated like other Tenno that have yet to be woken up...

 

While I absolutely agree that there is way too much discussion about the physicality of the Tenno for any "ghost-tenno" hypothesis to hold much water currently I do take issue with this. I see no reason to assume that those in Corpus or Orokin cryopods are Tenno. Now that they have been chromed over so we can't even see inside any more, until we have more data I think the default assumption is that the are the same Lotus "agents" we see elsewhere.

[motorfirebox]

I don't know why people think the Tenno are sapient. All they do is what they're told to do. Sure, they put on warframes and use weapons, but if a dog can be trained to drive a car I think one could learn to use a sword if you gave it hands! And Tenno don't even talk, even apes can talk using sign language. Clearly, the Tenno are no more intelligent than any animal.

Edited September 19, 2015 by motorfirebox

[Draaxus]

Ya you know the orokin were awful right? They made the sentients, the made the infested to fight the sentients, then when the infested just started killing everyone they experimented on children to make the Tenno. They used the grineer as slaves and that's what made the grineer turn.

Like the orokin committed hella war crimes.

 

Bro, The Technocyte Virus A.K.A. the Infested (I think) was made during the Cold War

[arch111]

The Lotus speaks of two things.

The first and second dream.

She hid the Tenno away in the Second Dream, betrayed her own kind.

Ordis was a part of it, as he chants:

"Do not split the Dream."

What that means is "Do not tell the Tenno what happened. Do not give them their memories."

So what was the first Dream?

The one Stalker is mad about. And likely the second or first sequence of Lotus mission; to wipe out the Emperors.

My guess is this. Lotus took control of the Tenno and directed them at their masters. How did she do this? By breaking the first dream. She woke us up. She told us what we are, why the Orokin used us in the war.

She told us how we were once made from innocense into alien warriors of death and destruction.

The first dream was the Lie we were told that we were honored orokin heroes, born to fight for the Empire.

She led us in the Collapse, the ravaging civil war that tore the systen apart. She led us to victory against the infested and the remaining sentients.

Finally she wiped our memories in the second dream, covering her tracks, and waited.

Now the second dream is about to be broken, and we will once again learn then truth, just as the old enemy return.

Stalker might just become our greatest ally when the last of the dream is finally gone and we are all truly awake.

[Mak_Gohae]

They were working with power tools, which they understood well enough to use competently as weapons. They understood to put on protective gear for armor. They didn't simply "growl", they forced someone to perform a task for them through the use of a verbalized threat. They didn't simply distrust someone, they analyzed their behavior and compared it to the current situation to reach the conclusion that they were being lied to.

 

 

How else were they going to fight the infested? They made obvious decision with the information they have.

Also, that Orokin was basically screaming that they were going to be left behind. The other one basically said that it was stupid to say this in front of them.

 

The point of this isnt to show they are smart but to show how dumb the orokin was.

 

The only way your argument works is if you boil complex behaviors down into their absolute simplest form. You might as well be saying that human speech doesn't prove intelligence, because dogs barking is the same thing. Or that using a computer doesn't prove intelligence because some primates use sticks to dig for termites.

 

Not at all, you are the one framing this as animal being biological computers that only go around eating and pooping.

Im the one elevating this picture you have of them. Animals do a lot of "human things." This gets framed like this because people have this idea that they are the only ones that can possibly have all these behaviours.

 

 

Besides waking us up, how about NOT killing us like she was supposed to, which you always hang onto so dearly? She was specifically sent to 1) use us to kill the Orokin and 2) Kill us once that was done. She refused to carry out step #2. And then with us stuck in this new age, who helps us get our bearings? The Lotus. Who's a near-omniscient mission control that leads us to stamp out threats like Hek's Balor Fomorians -before- they can reach their full power and run rampant over us? The Lotus.

Hell, in what remains of Mirage's backstory she tried to protect her from being eliminated by the other Sentient. (Inb4 "That's just a lie she tells you!")

 

 

All of this happened because of her desire to want children. This isnt out of the goodness of her heart.

This is all happening because what she wants.

Sorry but i dont want to be part of some one's sick fantasy.

 

The Stalker, meanwhile, has not only been sent out to kill us, he has repeatedly -tried- to do that. By any possible measure of logic, The Stalker is far more interested in killing us than The Lotus ever was. And I highly doubt that hundreds or thousands of years of hatred that led to him existing for the sole purpose of hunting us down would be let go if we simply say "Hey, our bad, we were totally tricked and/or controlled into doing it!". It was still Tenno blades that cut down his beloved empire, and that's assuming he'd even listen, much less believe, anything we said. How the blazes would we prove any of it?

 

Stalker is out to kill us because of "Lotus"

This is the whole point of this, this is all happening because of "Lotus."

 

And i think it time to stop following her fantasy. It's time to get back to the real world.

It's time to fix all of this and finish our job.

 

Teshin might be atleast a viable alternative, but mama Lotus is my choice. You can criticize her for choosing to spare us out of a weird desire to have children, even adopted ones, but the alternative is that she'd have killed us like she was supposed to in the first place.

 

I have said plenty of time that Tenshin, Darvo, some Cephalon, and the Syndicate leaders can be our controllers.

 

And sorry but im not going to follow her simply because she didnt kill us.

If you two want to be fantasy family thats fine, but i am going to do my thing and she better not get in the way cause it she does that Sentient is going down!

[Ninja-Gyles]

Uh... animals do teach the next generation how to do stuff. Do you think that animals randomly know how to do everything because nature?

Instincts, my friend.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Ninja-Gyles