So Wait... The Stalker Was Right? (Spoilers?)

[Tostov]

-snip-

 

About the moas, the Ancient healer synthesis mentions the troops lining up behind a formation of Moas. Considering this is almost immediately after the fall of the Orokin empire (So much so that there's still what is most likely a excal prime running around), it's probably safe to say they could make Moas. Cephalons are almost certainly from the same timeframe, as your ship, and by extension Ordis, have been around since your entry into crysosleep (probably).

Zero tech was "Developed" specifically after the war had started and the sentients were turning their tech against them.

We dont even know why the Sentients came back to kill the Orokin or what their plan was because "Lotus" screwed it up and doesnt want to talk AKA DE hasn't written it yet.

Natah quest pretty much outright states that 'she' was sent to manipulate the tenno into destroying the Orokin leadership, then wipe out the tenno. The rest of the plan isn't exactly clear, but that's probably the key part of it anyway.

As for why the sentients were hostile? Don't know. Could be retaliatory, the orokin empire sending ships to clean up the builders now they had finished their work, could be they realised that they were built flawed and wanted to rebel, could be outside influence affecting them, don't know

Rules, everyone has rules. We need to see the rules before we start calling things dystopian.

Well yeah. As I've noted, its not really directly clear from evidence what sort of life Orokin people led, because we don't ever recieve any information about it really. In a positive light, you could look at it as social unity, in a negative, a conformist regime. The reason why people probably go with the latter is because of disagreements we see between "ordinary" people in codex entries, and probably just how unnervingly 'pretty' orokin stuff is. It's sort of a "It's too shiny, which means there's probably something wrong.".

They let the sentient program, apparently be created. So they didnt ignore everything brought up.

Yeah, but the same synthesis article has them vaporizing one of their leading researchers because uhh, they probably didn't perform well enough. ( I mean, there's plenty of other potential reasons, like the "Crewman Project" being too resource intensive or the researching actually just using it as a front for embezzlement. We don't get that info, so the easiest conclusion to jump to is the first.)

Ironically, the Sentient program (if that's what the starfish thing was) does end up backfiring terribly, so they did have good reason to try and blow the dude up. Threatening the rest of his social group at the same time for making an appeal is probably what gives people the impression they're not nice people, since it's assumed the rest of his "Corpus" probably weren't involved in the project.

It's like if you made an appeal to the high court to overturn a prison sentence, and then they were like, "Well, if you don't make a successful appeal, I guess we'll just send the rest of your family to jail as well because you tried." I mean, sure, the Orokin executioners might be a little busy, maybe? We don't know.

Like I said above, given that there is no explanation how "Lotus" gets resources, i would hardly call this an issue for everyone else.

Like I noted later on, it really just depends on Ordis being okay with it. The orbiter/ship combo we have is awesome, and doesn't really seem to have a good alternative from other factions. Even the extraction ship the lotus sends in the first tutorial mission seems like a crappy replacement for it.

That being said, my guess is the Lotus using her loyal swarm of space ninjas to loot and plunder all over the place. I mean, while we might get a single void key each from the lone tenno operative during survival, the actual volume of stuff secured is probably different. Deception missions could quite easily involve redirecting shipping so that it can later be hijacked/scrapped with ease, especially if the reactor just happens to be sabotaged by tenno later on.

When we clear a tower or ship of corrupted or grineer, the lotus probably sends in operatives afterwards to tear up anything valuable that isn't nailed down. Spy missions probably involve locating Corpus or Grineer resource caches which are probably later looted or redirected, I mean, there was the "Raid Grineer Treasury ship" mission around the same time as proxy rebellion weekend. We also rescue Darvo at some point, and it's likely that we also rescue other potential VIP type people who have some political or physical resources available to them.

There's nothing to say that the syndicates don't have these sorts of resources either though, but most of them seem reletavely young compared to Lotus in terms of ingame time, so that's why it seems like that.

That's what i have been saying. If you are going to call them evil for thing we are doing currently, think about that for a second.

Well, I didn't specifically mention any evil there, cause evil is hugely subjective. My guess is that the Orokin probably didn't eat the grineer like we humans eat animals, so its weird /joke.

In seriousness though domestication is a little different to making a clone labour force, especially in the sense that domestication generally results in a higher/more stable quality of life for the animal, as the 'labour' it performs usually gives it a stable food source and living conditions in which it can thrive. This obviously varies depending on how well the animal is treated, which varies greatly from place to place, but I'd guess as a standard, a more productive animal is usually content and healthy. Domestication pretty much also removes a huge amount of risk from predation, even if they're killed in other manners later on anyway.

The grineer, being clones, aren't really entitled to quality of life, so in essence, its closer to slave labour in real life, where there isn't a shared co-interest in the worker's living condition. As long as it's working, it doesn't matter.

In essence, most animal labour performed these days (in developed countries at least) is sort of more like having a worker that pretty much receives social support instead of monetary compensation, there's exceptions, and people very much view those in a negative light when they occur. Grineer were a lot closer to forced slave labour (as far as we've seen) where it was "Live, Work, Die". It's lower than domestication, in terms of dehumanizing them, because there isn't even an interest in the Clone's condition outside of "as a template for the next set".

Growth of animals for food is a whole other ballgame, and if you want to relate the grineer to that, you better first show me some evidence that the Orokin empire was also eating the grineer (well, while they weren't infested).

[Kaotyke]

I need to put this for the Grineer, such disrespect.

[motorfirebox]

I didnt say it had moral implications, im comparing to current times and how animals are used.

 

...Yes. Which means it carries moral implications.

 

 

 

Remember the above statement of there being an obvious in present day to future genetically engineer creatures?

Im not saying that here's a dog and he is Grineer, im saying here is a current dog with no genetic advancement. Look at what he can do, it's not weird if they are genetically advance we can have a Grineer-like creature.

 

A dog that is genetically modified to such a degree that it's able to drive a car to work every day isn't a dog anymore. It's a person, and treating it like a dog would be fantastically unethical.

 

 

Pretty sure manual labor, even in the future, does not need complex plans with high-tech stuff.

And, btw, there is always a supervisor.

 

Man, have you ever done manual labor? I helped a buddy install an AC today. A simple air conditioner, just the AC unit and refrigerant lines tied into the central heating system. Here's a list of the things, off the top of my head, that I had to know or figure out: the best angle to hold the drywall cutter so that I didn't wear out the blade and battery too quickly. Which battery charger to use when the battery died. How to cut a straight line with the dang thing! How to mount a collar on the filter attached to the furnace—what screws to use, where to put them, how push hard enough with the power drill that get the screw would bite, but not so hard that I dented the sheet metal. How to get dents out of sheet metal. I had to do lots of measuring of ductwork so that I could attach it all together without leaving big gaps or wasting too much space. I had to learn how put a 90-degree bend in a 1-inch copper line without crimping it. I had to know the difference between three different types of sheet metal cutters. I had to learn the best way to cut a hole in sheet metal—turns out, there's a special drill attachment that you use to cut a big circle, and then you use the battery-powered cutters (separate from the three types mentioned previously!) to do the cut. I had to learn how to cut a straight line with those. I had to learn the best way to cut threading into copper pipe, such that the metal you're shaving out of the pipe don't get stuck and end up gouging a big trough through the threading you're trying to make. That involved setting up a big chain vice, learning how to use it to hold a pipe in place, learning which die to use, threading the die onto the pipe, attaching the comealong bar to the die, and turning the die hard enough to cut the threading but not so hard that the shavings don't have time to drop out. I had to drill holes in brickwork, and I had to figure out where in this particular brickwork I could drill without destroying either the drill or the brickwork.

 

That is all for a basic, dirt-simple, modern-day-tech air conditioning unit. This is something that people do for a living without a college education. It's not hard. It's not complex. It's not like I'm building a spaceship, or constructing some kind of city/ship/facility in the twisted, screaming void that exists below sidereal space. And yet it is hard enough, and complex enough, that any creature that is capable of doing it must be considered to have human-comparable intelligence. Treating any such creature as an unpaid, expendable workforce is slavery. The Grineer, if they were being equipped with power tools and protective gear, were doing work of this complexity or greater. There is no reasonable argument that the Orokin's treatment of the Grineer was not morally abominable. The end.

Edited September 25, 2015 by motorfirebox

[UrielColtan]

Well, rather than being entirely incorporeal, I sort of figure Tenno are bound to a body, but can move between them. The Tenno itself is technically incorpreal, but without a form to sustain itself, it can't really have an influence on the world.

I mean like, suppose that you could jump from body to body, just your mind. But that's something that would most likely require some conciseness effort. So suppose you're asleep, if someone attacks/kidnaps you, well, the first notice you get of it is once they're half way through whatever they're doing. It's worse still if you're put under via drugs first, as you might not even wake up in time before they had hacked you to pieces or carted you off to some other place, at which point, even if you were capable of sustaining yourself, you would be at an extremely decisive disadvantage.

If the dudes in the cryopods were tenno, they'd be asleep, unable to respond to outside stimuli, easy to carry off and contain. I by no means think we are the tenno who are actively in the cryopods at the time. We're the tenno that have awoken, and we generally want to help those who are still suspended in cryostatis so they don't face some gruesome fate as they awaken.

In that same line, I don't think warframes are decidedly hollow either. There is a living thing inside of a warframe, at-least somewhat human in shape and nature, that's what I view the creature in the Rhino P codex as. Tenno, being originally humans, aren't suited to non-humanish bodies, in the same vein, something with too much of a will would be difficult to suppress and control. I don't figure that they're hollow in the literal sense, more in the mental sense that the living body within the warframe isn't exactly human without the Tenno controlling it. The 'warframe' as we know it was armor and support systems built around those creatures.

 

At least for the first generation of "proto" warframes. For later ones (i.e. those Tenno not descended from the Zarman kids), I can see it easily being the case that the Tenno's original body makes their orignal warframe, and becomes a template for later ones (mirage, limbo). But Tenno before they made it a 'process' of creation had likely lost their original body before they had a warframe.

 

Despite this, outside influence can take control of the body, wrestling it from the Tenno. Things like the ascaris negotiator and the control collar do something more akin to hijacking the central nervous system of the body, locking the Tenno out.

 

 

Look, honestly we still have very little information on the Orokin. From what snippets we have directly, we know this: The Orokin were dogmatic, had very extreme tools that in no way were probably required, and were probably not too concerned over individual lives. The Orokin most certainly had robotics at least as advanced as MOAs, likely more so, and Cephalon tech was also likely much more capable during the time of the empire. Regardless of anything else, the Orokin weren't pleasant people. Those in higher positions were very much dismissive of those below them from what we know.

 

Just because something is bred and used as a tool, doesn't mean it's still a little unpleasant, at least, in modern society, this is true of both clones and animals. Judging from Orokin society, they were extremely dismissive of most things though, so undoubtly, they would see little issue with something like the grineer. I mean, there were Lorists as well as grineer, and it's whether you view them as human can come into play, after all, the ones mentioned in the synthisis article are noted to be cloned. Simmilarliy, the elitism of the "Orokin" is noted here as well

As I noted, you're right, in regards to the grineer, the Orokin viewed them exactly as that, a tool. There's not much evidence to the contrary however, that they didn't view "civillians" as a tool either, very much so considering all we see in snippets are either higher ups or military personnel. There's very little information about what civillian life in the Empire was like, but judging from what we see, and depending on what the "7 principles" are, it's not very likely that it wasn't at least, at some level, dystopian, if order maintaining (Judging from what it is though, it's close to reasearch guidelines, though viewed a bit more religiously). 

Simmilarliy, at some level, Natah's job to destroy the Orokin empire probably played a large bit into why the leadership was killed, after all, the sentients would want revenge against the Orokin empire. Even if that weren't the case, much of Orokin society was likely the same, following the same dogmatic principles, same in culture. Just switching the leadership would've resulted in no net effect. A new council would have been set up and the same mistakes they had made in the past would have likely happened again. Tenno aren't exactly the best diplomatic tool outside of just killing things. And using the tenno to enforce the new "leaders" might not turn out so well, hell, even having new leaders enstated might not have turned out well either.

arch111 above me sums it up pretty cleanly.

 

That being said, there's not many people who Tenno, especially in large numbers, could rely on. Grineer hate almost anything non-grineer, and are dead loyal to the queens, and make up really the militaristic and expansionist nature of the former Orokin empire. The Corpus also loathe us, largely because they're the closest representation of the former Orokin empire, even if they're different on the outside, they're a dogmatic organisation of merchants who are very much not above doing short sighted things like supplying the grineer with resources. Then we have the infested, which really have no qualms with ripping us up, since we're just extremely powerful prey to them.

I mean, it really mostly comes down to whether Ordis is willing to abandon the lotus. The ship and orbiter are pretty much vital parts of tenno operations, and it's likely that very few factions outside of the major 3 have the resources to provide a ship and gear housing of matching quality. Clan dojo's could represent Tenno construction, but on the other hand, the actual construction of them may actually be handled by the lotus faction as a whole, and the resources provided by the tenno in their construction.

 

I'm doubtful that the Lotus would really distrupt you if you went off and did your own thing, as long as you didn't go round hunting tenno on operations or mass slaughtering civillians. If they somehow let you, joining the corpus or Grineer would probably both be bad ideas as well. I mean, when you do work for darvo, the Lotus doesn't really bother much in terms of worrying. More Darvo would be nice, but I'm not sure he has the resources to upkeep a huge stable of tenno. Tenshin/Simaris don't seem to have much in the form of influence resources, so they might not be able to provide a simmilar service. Same thing with the Syndicates. They have resources, but whether they have enough to upkeep potential tenno operations is questionable.

So it really comes down to Ordis, and whether his loyalties lie with you, or the Lotus, as to whether you can support other factions exclusively. I mean, pay would be a potential issue, but you can loot credits. I mean, how the foundry works isn't entirely clear, but if the credits are just used to source other materials outside of the ones you provide, it might prove a bit more troublesome, but likely manageable. Blueprints would be an issue too, if the marketplace is run by the lotus. Clan dojos would be a pain if the Lotus oversees them, but if not, that could provide a way to acquire new weapons blueprints to manufacture. Not getting rewards the lotus provides from events would suck, but depending on who you're supporting, you might be able to get other gear somehow.

And that's it, going directly against the lotus is only not suicide for the two human factions who already hate the Tenno anyway. Anyone else we've seen so far is pretty much likely aided by the Lotus at some point in their existence, directly or otherwise, and biting the hand that feeds you is pretty stupid. Running independent of the Lotus as an organization is one thing, running opposing to them leaves you with very little friends left.

That being said, fighting bosses is amusing, and I will continue to do it. The Lotus pays well.

Also, about the event rewards, lets not lie, Gravius Dilemma had an arguably better reward on the attacking side. And regardless of what stats you gave the rewards, people would complain that the grass is greener on the other side anyway.

 

You think they can't be human because humans have free will and can't go against it?

Indoctrination and slavery, ever heard of these?

Let alone the bevvy of tech and bioengineering around to likely remedy things like free will, see the concept of the Corrupted.

I'm also not grasping this endless desire to make it so the Tenno themselves are not actually in the Warframes. It is overly meticulous to have it how you are explaining, and all that superfluous russian doll detail on what is inside the Warframes is just alienating and impresonal to many people like myself. Ultimately all that mental gymnastic finangling would just seem like a waste.

Mirage or Limbo dying should not be treated as sad if we are just non-corporeal ghosts in these golems or mere puppet sacks of meat in these golems, for no good reason, idea or presentation wise. Just sounds like a desperately overcomplicated explanation to answer things that are mainly the way they are for gameplay and development convenience, and honestly should not really require explaining.

Edited September 26, 2015 by UrielColtan

[Kihana]

On another note It would be nice to see yet another Gravidus Dilemma type event, but we all know which ever side gets the better rewards is gonna win. I mean it already happened once before. In which case though I would still pick Lotus, Mama Lotus for life!

 

They could always do an event where they don't say what the final reward for either side is, and make mid-event rewards equal for all sides.

 

That would show who really supports what. Or at least come close.

[Mak_Gohae]

Stalker is an A******, he doesn`t care about saving anything, just getting revenge for his masters. Betraying Lotus is not going to stop him as he already realises we don`t have memory of the event but wants to kill us anyway. And you are suggesting that Stalker is mad at a Lotus who was working with the Sentients at the time. Any grudge he may hold with Lotus over that is obsolete as she is trying to help society now. Stalker does not care about helping society though.

In any case, Lotus` maternal instincts for the Tenno aren`t stopping her from helping colonies, I say its a small issue.

 

He doesnt know why we did it. But with the proper info we could both destroy the real enemy.

[Tostov]

You think they can't be human because humans have free will and can't go against it?

Indoctrination and slavery, ever heard of these?

Uhh, I'm not really sure where these two come in to play. Logically yes, easily possible, assuming you (as the Tenno) are overpowering someone else's mind.

 

Let alone the bevvy of tech and bioengineering around to likely remedy things like free will, see the concept of the Corrupted.

​Once again, not sure what you're addressing here.

 

I'm also not grasping this endless desire to make it so the Tenno themselves are not actually in the Warframes. It is overly meticulous to have it how you are explaining, and all that superfluous russian doll detail on what is inside the Warframes is just alienating and impresonal to many people like myself. Ultimately all that mental gymnastic finangling would just seem like a waste.

 

Mirage or Limbo dying should not be treated as sad if we are just non-corporeal ghosts in these golems or mere puppet sacks of meat in these golems, for no good reason, idea or presentation wise. Just sounds like a desperately overcomplicated explanation to answer things that are mainly the way they are for gameplay and development convenience, and honestly should not really require explaining.

Look, nowhere do I say that the Tenno aren't human. I mean, the rhino prime codex creature could genetically be extremely close to a human, but would that make it a human? I mean, the amount of implants inside of valkyr definately is straddling the line between man and machine.

Why wouldn't you treat someone dying, regardless of their bodily state, as sad? Both of these results leave mirage and limbo almost completely erased, all that remains in both instances are memories and history. That sounds a lot like death to me. If either of these fates didn't leave them "dead", then they were likely annihilated while still remaining alive, which is a much, much worse fate. In both instances, Limbo and Mirage, those we see in the history revealed by those quests, are gone. They've ceased to exist, they are no more. That's still sad.

As I've said though, what stuff isn't written in stone is subjective. For me, it's logically sound and answers all my questions:

Why can we wear warframes with extremely different physiques? Because aren't physical in the normal human sense. We are a mind, and undoubtly we need a body.

Why do warframes have such significant amounts of biological components? Because, in the first place, the warframe body is a bioweapon, enhanced by technology, but a "living" creature in some sense.

It also sort of explains my own desire to try and see which warframe I like most, creating new ones as they appear, because after all, if none are one's original body, then you'd feel distinctly like you were missing something, and would seek to find where that was, something close to the original you once had.

To me, a mind needing a body is an extremely simple concept to wrap my head around. A mind jumping between bodies is also entirely feasible to me. That's all that I need for it, there's no weird gymnastics or convoluted logic directly related to it, at least, for me. I don't find it dehumanizing, because in the first place, I view one's mental state and soul as the key tenants of what makes someone human. The exact form of the body is superficial to me.

Anyway, ontopic

 

 

He doesnt know why we did it. But with the proper info we could both destroy the real enemy.

 

Well yeah, I guess, but on the other hand, all tenno are cannonically amnesiacs. You'd also better hope you got some solid proof of what you're claiming too, cause it probably wouldn't be a "Oh hay, totally told to by my boss man", "Oh sure, I forgive you, lets go kill your boss man now" sort of conversation, especially if the stalker had actually physically witnessed you killing the Orokin. After all, you don't remember what you did, and you almost certainly also took part in the massacre. That'd still make you guilty.

And stalker doesn't really seem like the type to forgive you for something like that. At best you might get a change on the kill list from first to second, but in the end, still probably gonna end up with a dread shot to the head the moment it's feasable.

[Leavith]

To me no joke here but the stalker even if we can prove that we didn't know what we are doing the stalker is not likely to forgive us.

My reason for this is we still killed the orokin

The stalker has bear this grudge for so long

Lack of evidence in our part

Even if we kill the lotus we are next on the list he will try to make sure we don't do the same again ...which I kind of my theory beghind why he aims to kill us even after killing infested boss.

The way I see it their isn't enough lotus blood to equal the amount of orokin blood that spilled.their isn't enough to repetance to clean our sword of the blood we shed or to make the stalker forgive us for the year he spend dreading,hating,and despairing of what we did and what he could have done.

I wonder why their is a weapon called despair

You got hate you can direct hate at people and yourself

You can direct dread to yourself and other

Then you got despair you can only despair yourself maybe the day he walked out of alive cause he ran away and didn't fight on the day of the celebration.

While I am feeling like I am over thinking it.

Then again we got the blind justice stance from him...blind justice what stalker is doing.

[Mak_Gohae]

Though while we're on the topic, there's absolutely nothing to indicate that the Grineer of today are inherently more intelligent than the Orokin Grineer. In fact, due to genetic decay, odds are they ought to be dumber. The assumption that modem Grineer are smarter is deeply flawed.

 

Why would the Orokin create scientist for manual labour?

[Leavith]

Why would the Orokin create scientist for manual labour?

not for Manuel labor but for repair and maintenance if the orokin no longer deal with the production of grineer and make it an autonomous production then their would be a reason for the scientist but not really scientist but people who were taught how to work the grineer machine.While you need no science to press a button you need to be smart enough to follow complex instructions.and in all purpose situation it might be more convenient to repair q grineer then have to grow one all over again and teach them the trade so grineer that could be smart to work machines and provide mechanical repairs isn't far from possible.

[motorfirebox]

Why would the Orokin create scientist for manual labour?

That's not evidence, that's a question with any number of answers. It's entirely possible, for instance, that you simply can't create a creature smart enough to be a useful manual laborer without also making them smart enough to potentially be a scientist. What we know is at the Orokin created the Grineer, and then after millenia of genetic decay, they still have the potential to be scientists. Generally, when I hear the words ' genetic decay', I don't think of 'getting smarter'. There is no reason to assume that the Grineer are any smarter now than they were then. Edited September 30, 2015 by motorfirebox

[Mak_Gohae]

Well yeah, I guess, but on the other hand, all tenno are cannonically amnesiacs. You'd also better hope you got some solid proof of what you're claiming too, cause it probably wouldn't be a "Oh hay, totally told to by my boss man", "Oh sure, I forgive you, lets go kill your boss man now" sort of conversation, especially if the stalker had actually physically witnessed you killing the Orokin. After all, you don't remember what you did, and you almost certainly also took part in the massacre. That'd still make you guilty.

And stalker doesn't really seem like the type to forgive you for something like that. At best you might get a change on the kill list from first to second, but in the end, still probably gonna end up with a dread shot to the head the moment it's feasable.

 

We got a sentient, "Lotus", Tenshin, and Tyl all discussing this. Pretty sure the Grineer High Command now all know about this and will probably try to get to "Lotus" and steal her Sentient tech. And if the Grineer launch a mission against the "Lotus" i would support them cause i want to get the truth. 

 

The Corpus called "Lotus" a traitor so it appears that they know. I think the whole solar system now know she is a Sentient.

"Lotus" is a liability now, she needs to go.

[EmptyDevil]

We got a sentient, "Lotus", Tenshin, and Tyl all discussing this. Pretty sure the Grineer High Command now all know about this and will probably try to get to "Lotus" and steal her Sentient tech. And if the Grineer launch a mission against the "Lotus" i would support them cause i want to get the truth. 

 

The Corpus called "Lotus" a traitor so it appears that they know. I think the whole solar system now know she is a Sentient.

"Lotus" is a liability now, she needs to go.

 

[Mak_Gohae]

not for Manuel labor but for repair and maintenance if the orokin no longer deal with the production of grineer and make it an autonomous production then their would be a reason for the scientist but not really scientist but people who were taught how to work the grineer machine.While you need no science to press a button you need to be smart enough to follow complex instructions.and in all purpose situation it might be more convenient to repair q grineer then have to grow one all over again and teach them the trade so grineer that could be smart to work machines and provide mechanical repairs isn't far from possible.

 

But we dont know if this happened.

So far we got them digging and construction.

 

That's not evidence, that's a question with any number of answers. It's entirely possible, for instance, that you simply can't create a creature smart enough to be a useful manual laborer without also making them smart enough to potentially be a scientist. What we know is at the Orokin created the Grineer, and then after millenia of genetic decay, they still have the potential to be scientists. Generally, when I hear the words ' genetic decay', I don't think of 'getting smarter'. There is no reason to assume that the Grineer are any smarter now than they were then.

 

Yes, that is a question because i asked a question.

The Orokin created the Infested and all different kinds of Kubs, i think there's more info that they know how to mess with genes than they didnt know how. 

 

We dont know how the decay affects them. From the only info we got they seem to have some not growing limbs.

[motorfirebox]

Yes, that is a question because i asked a question.

The Orokin created the Infested and all different kinds of Kubs, i think there's more info that they know how to mess with genes than they didnt know how.

We dont know how the decay affects them. From the only info we got they seem to have some not growing limbs.

We don't know. Which makes your assumption that they must be smarter now completely invalid.

[Mak_Gohae]

We don't know. Which makes your assumption that they must be smarter now completely invalid.

 

I've said many pages ago that most of this stuff are theories because DE doesnt put down hard info most of the time.

 

But, again, the Orokin seem to be master geneticists so the creation of a labour force done completely at random doesnt have as much stuff backing it up than the opposite.

[motorfirebox]

I've said many pages ago that most of this stuff are theories because DE doesnt put down hard info most of the time.

 

But, again, the Orokin seem to be master geneticists so the creation of a labour force done completely at random doesnt have as much stuff backing it up than the opposite.

Where are you getting this "random" stuff?

[Leavith]

Your question was why would the ororkin create scientist for Manuel labor and that was my answer we already know they dig and construct and cut things .but I wasn't addressing the lore of warframe I was just telling you why would you make smart grineer for labor.

But we dont know if this happened.

So far we got them digging and construction.

 

 

Yes, that is a question because i asked a question.

The Orokin created the Infested and all different kinds of Kubs, i think there's more info that they know how to mess with genes than they didnt know how. 

 

We dont know how the decay affects them. From the only info we got they seem to have some not growing limbs.

[Mak_Gohae]

Where are you getting this "random" stuff?

 

You just said that the Orokin probably didnt know how to create a labour creature without messing with their intelligence.

 

Your question was why would the ororkin create scientist for Manuel labor and that was my answer we already know they dig and construct and cut things .but I wasn't addressing the lore of warframe I was just telling you why would you make smart grineer for labor.

 

Okay.

For me the fixing and managing was left to the Corpus.

[motorfirebox]

You just said that the Orokin probably didnt know how to create a labour creature without messing with their intelligence.

 

How in the world did you get "random" out of that? And anyway, what I said is that one possibility is that it isn't possible to create a creature smart enough to perform the kind of labor that requires power tools without giving them the capacity to become smart enough to work in genetics. It's a theory, a what-if. And as a theory, it's equally viable to your "genetic decay makes Grineer smarter" idea.

 

Not that it really matters. The Orokin-era Grineer were, demonstrably, intelligent enough to perform the kind of manual labor that requires power tools. As I already said, that makes them sentient by definition. Manual labor isn't as simple as you seem to believe it is.

[Mak_Gohae]

How in the world did you get "random" out of that? And anyway, what I said is that one possibility is that it isn't possible to create a creature smart enough to perform the kind of labor that requires power tools without giving them the capacity to become smart enough to work in genetics.

 

If the Orokin are creating a creature for labour but cannot determine the outcome that means it's random.

 

It's a theory, a what-if. And as a theory, it's equally viable to your "genetic decay makes Grineer smarter" idea.

 

When did i say genetic delay makes them smarter?

The closest thing i said about the intelligence is the idea that the smart clones are the sons and daughters of the twin queens.

 

Not that it really matters. The Orokin-era Grineer were, demonstrably, intelligent enough to perform the kind of manual labor that requires power tools. As I already said, that makes them sentient by definition. Manual labor isn't as simple as you seem to believe it is.

 

i already put up a video of a dog driving and an orangutan copying people and using tools.

General manual labour is not that difficult.

[HankJwimbleton]

I SENSE FACTION WARFAREEEE

 

[UrielColtan]

Look, nowhere do I say that the Tenno aren't human. I mean, the rhino prime codex creature could genetically be extremely close to a human, but would that make it a human? I mean, the amount of implants inside of valkyr definately is straddling the line between man and machine.

Why wouldn't you treat someone dying, regardless of their bodily state, as sad? Both of these results leave mirage and limbo almost completely erased, all that remains in both instances are memories and history. That sounds a lot like death to me. If either of these fates didn't leave them "dead", then they were likely annihilated while still remaining alive, which is a much, much worse fate. In both instances, Limbo and Mirage, those we see in the history revealed by those quests, are gone. They've ceased to exist, they are no more. That's still sad.

As I've said though, what stuff isn't written in stone is subjective. For me, it's logically sound and answers all my questions:

Why can we wear warframes with extremely different physiques? Because aren't physical in the normal human sense. We are a mind, and undoubtly we need a body.

Why do warframes have such significant amounts of biological components? Because, in the first place, the warframe body is a bioweapon, enhanced by technology, but a "living" creature in some sense.

It also sort of explains my own desire to try and see which warframe I like most, creating new ones as they appear, because after all, if none are one's original body, then you'd feel distinctly like you were missing something, and would seek to find where that was, something close to the original you once had.

To me, a mind needing a body is an extremely simple concept to wrap my head around. A mind jumping between bodies is also entirely feasible to me. That's all that I need for it, there's no weird gymnastics or convoluted logic directly related to it, at least, for me. I don't find it dehumanizing, because in the first place, I view one's mental state and soul as the key tenants of what makes someone human. The exact form of the body is superficial to me.

Anyway, ontopic

Well yeah, I guess, but on the other hand, all tenno are cannonically amnesiacs. You'd also better hope you got some solid proof of what you're claiming too, cause it probably wouldn't be a "Oh hay, totally told to by my boss man", "Oh sure, I forgive you, lets go kill your boss man now" sort of conversation, especially if the stalker had actually physically witnessed you killing the Orokin. After all, you don't remember what you did, and you almost certainly also took part in the massacre. That'd still make you guilty.

And stalker doesn't really seem like the type to forgive you for something like that. At best you might get a change on the kill list from first to second, but in the end, still probably gonna end up with a dread shot to the head the moment it's feasable.

We don't know the specifics of Valkyr's experimentation.

Why should I care about some ghost "dying", they transcend the corporeal world.

I find that about as compelling as a light bulb dying.

Why should I care about some nebulous blob of plasma in general? What is there to relate to there? Just a bland mush with no distinct form, let alone mannerism. And its not even doing the actual fighting, just puppeting a golem? Even less captivating.

And why should I sympathize with a being that apparently has so little regard or ethics for living bodies that it uses them as little more than meat taxi's?

Its honestly not endearing in the least, its just treading Ed Gein territory.

Why should I accept something as stupidly meticulous as that method Warframe/Tenno function anyway? Why is the Rhino codex of all things being used to support this convoluted theory? The Rhino codex had one Rhino free and rampaging and then a room full of Zariman subjects, Tenno. Its quite the complete opposite of the one Tenno many Warframes concept.

Why should I accept this doubly awful theory when things like Lotus pointing out that Alad uses the bodies of discarded TENNO in the Zanuka project? Meaning the bodies aren't irrelevant husk.

And so on.

Now onto humanities, you may be a solopsist and pretend that humans can't be made to do things against their will, or like to write off the victims that have been, but its pretty neglible to disregard that this is a thing that still has happened and still happens to what we biologically describe as humans, in multiple avenues around the world. For this reason, the idea that (people who have origin with the Orokin people) who were made to do things against their will, is a concept that is actually excercised by authors, regardless of what you feel makes someone human. So your reason for denying that the Tenno were legit people and are just meat puppets, is not a very good one.

 

He doesnt know why we did it. But with the proper info we could both destroy the real enemy.

He knows we forgot, he doesn't care. He just wants to avenge the ghosts of tyrants. He has no place in our future, so Stalker can go join his ghost emperors.

Edited October 9, 2015 by UrielColtan

[motorfirebox]

If the Orokin are creating a creature for labour but cannot determine the outcome that means it's random.

No, that's not what random means. Not being able to do X without also doing Y isn't randomness.

 

 

When did i say genetic delay makes them smarter?

The closest thing i said about the intelligence is the idea that the smart clones are the sons and daughters of the twin queens.

 

You have continually posited, without any proof or evidence whatsoever, that modern Grineer are smarter than Orokin-era Grineer, despite the fact that modern Grineer have undergone centuries or millennia of genetic decay.

 

 

i already put up a video of a dog driving and an orangutan copying people and using tools.

General manual labour is not that difficult.

 

 

Except we've already been over this. An animal performing a single, limited task in a controlled setting after intensive training is not in any way comparable to performing general manual labor. I wrote a great big post about what manual labor actually involves:

 

 

Man, have you ever done manual labor? I helped a buddy install an AC today. A simple air conditioner, just the AC unit and refrigerant lines tied into the central heating system. Here's a list of the things, off the top of my head, that I had to know or figure out: the best angle to hold the drywall cutter so that I didn't wear out the blade and battery too quickly. Which battery charger to use when the battery died. How to cut a straight line with the dang thing! How to mount a collar on the filter attached to the furnace—what screws to use, where to put them, how push hard enough with the power drill that get the screw would bite, but not so hard that I dented the sheet metal. How to get dents out of sheet metal. I had to do lots of measuring of ductwork so that I could attach it all together without leaving big gaps or wasting too much space. I had to learn how put a 90-degree bend in a 1-inch copper line without crimping it. I had to know the difference between three different types of sheet metal cutters. I had to learn the best way to cut a hole in sheet metal—turns out, there's a special drill attachment that you use to cut a big circle, and then you use the battery-powered cutters (separate from the three types mentioned previously!) to do the cut. I had to learn how to cut a straight line with those. I had to learn the best way to cut threading into copper pipe, such that the metal you're shaving out of the pipe don't get stuck and end up gouging a big trough through the threading you're trying to make. That involved setting up a big chain vice, learning how to use it to hold a pipe in place, learning which die to use, threading the die onto the pipe, attaching the comealong bar to the die, and turning the die hard enough to cut the threading but not so hard that the shavings don't have time to drop out. I had to drill holes in brickwork, and I had to figure out where in this particular brickwork I could drill without destroying either the drill or the brickwork.

 

That is all for a basic, dirt-simple, modern-day-tech air conditioning unit. This is something that people do for a living without a college education. It's not hard. It's not complex. It's not like I'm building a spaceship, or constructing some kind of city/ship/facility in the twisted, screaming void that exists below sidereal space. And yet it is hard enough, and complex enough, that any creature that is capable of doing it must be considered to have human-comparable intelligence. Treating any such creature as an unpaid, expendable workforce is slavery. The Grineer, if they were being equipped with power tools and protective gear, were doing work of this complexity or greater. There is no reasonable argument that the Orokin's treatment of the Grineer was not morally abominable. The end.

 

 

That gigantic list of tasks and obstacles is not comparable to driving a car around a track with your trainer sitting in the seat next to you telling you what to do. What would be comparable is driving to work every day on your own. And as I've said before, if you're smart enough to be able to drive to work on your own in modern traffic, you're sapient and anyone who treats you like a trained animal is morally deplorable.

Edited October 9, 2015 by motorfirebox

[Mak_Gohae]

 

He knows we forgot, he doesn't care. He just wants to avenge the ghosts of tyrants. He has no place in our future, so Stalker can go join his ghost emperors.

 

He doesnt care that we forgot because he thinks we did it on purpose.

But when we reveal the truth that could change the view of things.

 

No, that's not what random means. Not being able to do X without also doing Y isn't randomness.

 

 

Dude, having no control over the result is randomness. When you throw some dice that gives you a random result. This is how you are saying the Grineer may have been created. The orokin created a being but had no control over the result.

 

 

You have continually posited, without any proof or evidence whatsoever, that modern Grineer are smarter than Orokin-era Grineer, despite the fact that modern Grineer have undergone centuries or millennia of genetic decay.

 

I dont know why you continue to ask proof when its extremely clear to everyone that lore discussion is mostly theories.

 

Secondly, stop making assumptions about what some one posts and just answer what the posts says.

Said several times that there are smart Grineer and dumb Grineer, this is game lore. My theory is that the smart ones are related to the Twin Queens.

So, yes, some Grineer have gotten smarter because even through gene decay they start smart and im guessing they keep records of the knowledge they gained to teach the next set of clones.

 

 

Except we've already been over this. An animal performing a single, limited task in a controlled setting after intensive training is not in any way comparable to performing general manual labor. I wrote a great big post about what manual labor actually involves:

 

Yes, we have been over this. These examples are basic example with UNMODIFIED creatures made for a specific task.

What i have shown is how much a normal animal can do, now imagine an animal made specifically to work.

 

 

 

That gigantic list of tasks and obstacles is not comparable to driving a car around a track with your trainer sitting in the seat next to you telling you what to do. What would be comparable is driving to work every day on your own. And as I've said before, if you're smart enough to be able to drive to work on your own in modern traffic, you're sapient and anyone who treats you like a trained animal is morally deplorable.

 

This is the point! To drive a car you do not need to be a mechanic you just need to know how to operate the machine.

Telling some one to drill a hole doesnt require the worker to know how the machine that makes the holes work.

Telling some one to then screw panels in does not require for the worker to know how the panels work on the structure.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Mak_Gohae