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Mak_Gohae

So Wait... The Stalker Was Right? (Spoilers?)

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Opinions will be opinions, I disagree but that's why they're opinions. To me I see a better future made through our ability to cast off the failings and weaknesses of our regular bodies and enhance ourselves as we see the need, but everything in the world has a dark side - though, unlike time travel, I see this future very much as a real possibility. Not a surefire inevitability, perhaps, but certainly something that could come to pass.

On topic: I don't see the Warframes as being human bodies as the likes of Grineer clones and whatnot are - they're very much like the Infested, and we see what happens when Infested bodies have consciousness. The Tenno controlling them is the best option, as was seen during the Rhino Prime Codex when a Tenno stopped a rampaging - what I to believe - proto-Rhino experiment, of sorts, from back when the Warframes WERE autonomous creations of the Orokin being designed to fight in the Old War - alongside Lephantis and whatnot (which raises fascinating questions about what Lephantis might have been before it spent all those centuries consuming mass and growing).

Whether or not the Warframes retain their own autonomy while there is no Tenno piloting them IS a fascinating question and we don't really have much to say in regards to it, but I think that once the Tenno were discovered to be able to act as a rational and same consciousness to drive them the need for the Technocyte-Warframes to be self-aware and able to act on their own was discarded.

I can completely understand your cummupants with the idea, though.

We clearly differ on ideas of what is for the betterment of mankind thats for sure.

This stuff may sound sexy in animes but the reality would be less so.

Ideas like bio engineering clones, let alone creating the ability to bodyjack, holds a lot more weight in reality.

I know for a fact that the political top brass and the subordinate military that I was once a member of, would weaponize this for subversion and subterfuge.

Even if it were possible, its not giving me reason to have much worry for that particular person dying.

Especialy in the case that their replacement bodies likely end up having autonomy.

As for the Tenno, i`m not keen on the idea that they have infested bodies. Besides it being a turnoff considering what the infested are in this game (more rotting zombie tumors than cool symbiotic alloy like in Dark Sector,),  I am only lead to understand that the Warframes themselves have some benign technocyte components.

I have reason to believe the bodies within are not anything that alarming in make up, going by Vor`s comments in Arid Fear, and certainly not infested, due to Lotuses comment on Infested Mesa. Then there is the fact that infested still attack us, and our damage descriptor also isn`t of the same type as Infested.

And if we need to be inside infested to keep them from rampaging, whats stopping them from doing so when we leap into another body as is the theory here?

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Yeah, Grineer are not machines, that's obvious.

But from what we know about the Orokin and their genetics there nothing saying that they just randomly created stuff.

"We need some humanoid workers!"

"Ok throw some humanoid genes in the pot and see what happens!"

 

 

And i am no longer have a conversation about the definition of the word.

 

Where have I ever said they just throw some genes in a pot and see what happens? You can refuse to discuss the meaning of the word if you like, but you're still using it wrong.

 

 

I never said that manual labour means you have no intelligence.

I said that it requires low intelligence. Like i said before, you dont need doctos to work construction.

Sure, you don't need a doctor to work construction. But you do need someone with something approaching baseline human intelligence, though.

 

 

 

When i saw low level intelligence i dont mean you are smart as a 3 year old.

Humans didn't pop out with the brain ability to understand a black hole but didn't because they have the tools.

They had less capacity but it was enough to figure out some tools, framing, and taming animals.

Also, orangutan copying humans using tools.

There was also another one being stupid in some university where they taught him the concept of money. And he had to work to get paid so he could use the money to buy snacks.

 

It seems that you think that all animals are some other scale of intelligence because they dont have the ability to make sneakers and guitars.

Again, the orangutan copying humans using tools.

 

Copying humans using a stick or a rock as a hammer is not comparable to using a powerdrill to help build a spaceship. This is a comparision you've made over and over, and over and over it's been invalid.

 

 

Dude, the Grineer were not working on mom and pop business.

They are working for a big, BIG business here. People under big businesses should be under constant supervision.

You think miners are left alone to just blow up random stuff?

 

Mining teams are generally left the discretion to blow up what they need to blow up to get the job done. They are supervised, yes, but it's not some kind of moment-to-moment "pick this up, now put this down, now go over there, now do this" overwatch that you've suggested.

 

 

Orangutan using tools copying the people they see.

And you can call it whatever you want but i dont think that they would be on the same level and the standard orokin resident.

 

Dude. I never said they were on the same level of intelligence as a standard member of the Orokin empire. What I said is that they must have been sapient. A developmentally disabled guy making a few bucks an hour on an assembly line is sapient. Just because he's not as intelligent as you or I in some regards doesn't make him non-human, and it doesn't make him comparable to an orangutan.

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I have apparently walked into a flamewar.

 

Hey, you technically started it, bub.

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I have apparently walked into a flamewar.

 

That was started by people stating their delusions and/or fantasies as fact. When i look at the OP, i cringe myself into a singularity of secondhand embarrassment.

 

Stalker wasn't telling us to stop anything, he just waits for the right opportunity to kill the Tenno. All he wants is to avenge the death of the Orokin.

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Several warframes have Tenno designation numbers painted on their warframes.

 Tenno Model 2100N serial 148-H

 

So the idea of cloned brainless bodies used to move the warframes doesnt sound like a crazy theory.

Even if you dont like the concept.

 

Hek, we could actually be OROKIN! Orokin in energy form.

Since you people think the Orokin are all evil and stuff maybe this became a Game of Thrones situation where several houses wanted control of the Kingdom. One house made a deal with the Sentients and lead an attack. But there was probably some fail safe switch or the Sentients betrayed the house their allied with and this is how we all ended up in this situation. 

What does equipment having designated numbers matter? Even soldiers and prisoners have those.

An unautonomous body absent of possession seems quite unlikely seeing how clones are in the lore of Warframe, and its not a process that real life supports either. Even machines gain their own autonomy here. Its farfeteched that actual bodies, created merely to conveniently let tenno just use infested suits, simply to explain why they have vulnerabilites like regular flesh and a distinguished damage type from infested, is just desperate attempt to make this poor theory fit.

Orokin being evil is irrelevant to the point, we still keep and build Warframes.

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Partially, I was sort of trying to get specific bits of your viewpoint, but uhh, Morec0 is scary good at discussions. Pretty much provided the information from you that I was looking for.

 

He is actually pretty bad and just makes up swaths of other lore just to make some theory he is realy really set on, fit into the puzzle. He ends up having to make up explanations to his made up explanations, getting further and further away from details provided or comments made by the devs.

 

Huh? When people say something is defined by its conciseness not it's flesh, I fail to see how that excuses the activities of nut-jobs/sociopaths who went around killing and mutilating willy nilly. If you kill someone or something, it's very likely, that in real life, it's conciseness doesn't exist any more. With a living human or animal, there's some evidence that it is conscious. The moment you kill it, you, with almost complete certainty erase that conscious and all evidence of its existence, hell, you don't even need to to kill it, reducing a living thing to a vegatative state or even just rendering them unconscious (though there's a good chance they'll come back in this instance) are both pretty freakin' bad as well.

No one in their right mind would use that phrase to excuse something like that.
We get to ignore this stuff in warframe, just like we ignore the mass killings we do (only in the game I hope), cause it's a game.

 

You're talking about a dead body. Not actually creating life. Removing the life from a body for someone else to takeover certainly absolves the sociapath proclivities and raises attachment to the bodyjacker. Killing someone in the act of war is also very distinguished from keeping the dead bodie in your personal lockers and wearing their body now is it. Bad comparison.

The concept of Orokin's creations having autonomy, is so instilled in their fear of rebelling, so much that they consulted their 7 principles on the matter.

 

Sorta why people see the Orokin as evil or extremely desperate. The idea that this empire made such a warrior that they would have this capability is what makes them so creepy (I mean, they made the infested as well and pretty much made both the original grineer and the modern grineer, and lets not forget the corrupted). Though I view the bodies as "living" in the sense that infested are, rather than say, "living" like the Kubrows are to help alleviate that, but yes, it is still exceptionally disturbing.

 

Pitiful excuse, we still use and build warframes. Can't blame a dead empire for this anymore. Seeing the bodies like infested when the warframes are not established to even be conscious without the pilot is a pretty slipshod suggestion.
Its also pretty stupid to just clone bodies to remove or takeover life from them instead of just sending conscious clones into the void themselves to get these powers, no need for russian doll shenanigans.
The only reason you guys are pushing something so stupidly meticulous and pointless, is to make excuses for switching frames, which itself has not actually been finalized as actually happening, and DE are reluctant to embrace when asked if that is indeed what is happening.

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Aside from the fact that the Orokin were, in essesence, abusive parents, I will stand by Lotus.

The Orokin did many great and many terrible things, but ultimatly they nearly annhilated life in the system.

 

The Tenno are the hope and future of the galaxy, and bring balance to the systems.

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What does equipment having designated numbers matter? Even soldiers and prisoners have those.

An unautonomous body absent of possession seems quite unlikely seeing how clones are in the lore of Warframe, and its not a process that real life supports either. Even machines gain their own autonomy here. Its farfeteched that actual bodies, created merely to conveniently let tenno just use infested suits, simply to explain why they have vulnerabilites like regular flesh and a distinguished damage type from infested, is just desperate attempt to make this poor theory fit.

Orokin being evil is irrelevant to the point, we still keep and build Warframes.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/546400-the-individual-theory/i expanded on it a bit and connected the dots with some lore that's supports

But basic idea Tenno oro we could define it as just energy you need to power the warframe or to bring a Tenno back

The important thing about the number is the fact they exist on prisoners it tells you who they are on cars it tells you the model on soldiers it tell you their unit

This thing with a warframe what do you think it says

All the thing I mention to manufacturers and to record keepers this thing are important because this numbers have meaning that's why it matters

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What does equipment having designated numbers matter? Even soldiers and prisoners have those.

An unautonomous body absent of possession seems quite unlikely seeing how clones are in the lore of Warframe, and its not a process that real life supports either. Even machines gain their own autonomy here. Its farfeteched that actual bodies, created merely to conveniently let tenno just use infested suits, simply to explain why they have vulnerabilites like regular flesh and a distinguished damage type from infested, is just desperate attempt to make this poor theory fit.

Orokin being evil is irrelevant to the point, we still keep and build Warframes.

 

ID numbers are not model numbers.

A tenno model number means there are several units of that model.

 

Aside from the fact that the Orokin were, in essesence, abusive parents, I will stand by Lotus.

The Orokin did many great and many terrible things, but ultimatly they nearly annhilated life in the system.

 

The Tenno are the hope and future of the galaxy, and bring balance to the systems.

 

What was so bad about the Orokin?

There is really nothing seriously bad about them.

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What was so bad about the Orokin?

There is really nothing seriously bad about them.

Their entire society was based on slave races, unethical military testing, and an oppressive dictatorial caste system that handed out death penalties on a whim

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Their entire society was based on slave races, unethical military testing, and an oppressive dictatorial caste system that handed out death penalties on a whim

 

And there's more than enough implications suggesting that they wanted the Tenno dead as well, after they lost their purpose. Orokin were fracked up.

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ID numbers are not model numbers.

A tenno model number means there are several units of that model.

 

The text is "Tenno Model 2100N serial 148-H"

 

This could be:

 

"This Tenno has a model number of 2100N and a serial number of 148-H"

 

or

 

"This suit is model number 2100N made for Tenno with a serial number of 148-H"

 

Compare to contemporary labelling like:  "European model XXYY"

 

As far as the Orokin go... I assume you are simply being provocative. Current information suggests:

 

1. Child experimentation

2. Legal process that executes for failure.

3. Disregard for the life of the lower ranks.

 

All things that are classically defined as "evil"

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How exactly did we end up serving the Lotus? We were originally Orokin, so how could our enemy convince us to jump ship?

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Their entire society was based on slave races, unethical military testing, and an oppressive dictatorial caste system that handed out death penalties on a whim

 

Man, we jumped from one slave workforce to now everyone?

 

The text is "Tenno Model 2100N serial 148-H"

 

This could be:

 

"This Tenno has a model number of 2100N and a serial number of 148-H"

 

or

 

"This suit is model number 2100N made for Tenno with a serial number of 148-H"

 

Compare to contemporary labelling like:  "European model XXYY"

 

 

Well, this is a Canadian game so there is no reason to believe they are using labeling from some other place.

The words Tenno and Model are next to each other so i am reading them like that.

If we start shuffling around one can turn anything into anything.

 

As far as the Orokin go... I assume you are simply being provocative. Current information suggests:

 

1. Child experimentation

2. Legal process that executes for failure.

3. Disregard for the life of the lower ranks.

 

All things that are classically defined as "evil"

 

You are taking this first person accounts at face value with absolutely no context.

Sure, this the info we have but we should not make leaps.

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Stalker might be "right".

But as long as lotus gives me patatoes, I will be her mercenary-assassin-tool.

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Nope, that doesn't confirm her as evil. By your logic, a person's race is an accurate way to judge everything about them.

 

We should discuss this somewhere else.

But i am not going by the race but her actions.

She is the reason Tenno are being cut up and being used for parts. Which people forget when they use the "space mom" bit about her not killing Tenno.

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We should discuss this somewhere else.

But i am not going by the race but her actions.

She is the reason Tenno are being cut up and being used for parts. Which people forget when they use the "space mom" bit about her not killing Tenno.

 

There is nothing to discuss. Nothing you say will convince me that Lotus is evil because she isn't. There is a lot proving that she is good.

 

Yeah, you did go by race in the other thread. Nope, she is not the reason they are being cut up. She has done more good for the Tenno and nothing that is considered evil on them or against them.

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"a form of slavery that was needed"

stopped right there.

These weren't machines. These weren't animals. These were thinking, feeling human beings that were being treated like beasts. That is NOT cool, that is NOT right. There is NO WAY to morally JUSTIFY that!

And even if they were doing all that to survive there one could argue there are some lines that should NEVER be crossed. Hell, we STILL don't know the full extent of the reasoning behind the Sentients attacks, and I heavily doubt they did it just for S#&$s and giggles - but looking at the kind of S#&$ the Orokin were willing, nay COMPLETELY FINE WITH DOING I'd argue they had some pretty valid reasonings for going to war.

Crewman synth.

See above about "some lines never being crossed"

Zariman and the Tenno - though admittedly the timeline IS vague.

Thank you.

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There is nothing to discuss. Nothing you say will convince me that Lotus is evil because she isn't. There is a lot proving that she is good.

 

Not trying to convince anyone, just discussing the info placed there and how i see it.

And there is actually nothing proving that "she is good." She is just doing what she wants to do.

That's her story.

 

 

Yeah, you did go by race in the other thread. Nope, she is not the reason they are being cut up. She has done more good for the Tenno and nothing that is considered evil on them or against them.

 

She is the reason Tenno are being cut up.

She put Tenno to sleep to hide the fact that she didnt kill them because she wanted babies.

Then for unknown reasons she forgot about the Tenno until the Corpus and Grineer started finding them and using them for knowledge.

Why was she not looking after her babies?

 

It looks like she just forgot about it and then suddenly remember when some one showed up with one.

She appears to be like a child, "Oh i want this. Ok i will steal it and hide it." Forgets about it because all she wanted was to take it until some one else shows up with them and she returned to that taking mentality.

 

That chick has problems.

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It is possible and even likely to an extent that the Lotus is keeping things from us Tenno but being secretive doesn't make a person evil on its own. It is obvious that the Lotus has the interests of the Tenno faction at heart but it could be argued that those ends are not every Tenno's ambitions or goals. If the Lotus's goal was simply power, she would not allow the syndicates to have a foothold in the organization nor would she only allow Steel Meridian to join up for showing a value for sentient life. In fact taken farther into extrapolation, the problem with the Orokin and what may have started the whole mess is that they seemed to have no value for sentient life or said another way for life with a sense of free-will a synonym for 'sentience'. I don't know about anyone else, but a society that has little or no regard for sentient life comes off as pretty evil in my book.

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It is possible and even likely to an extent that the Lotus is keeping things from us Tenno but being secretive doesn't make a person evil on its own.

 

It depends on the secrets are.

Given that she has not explained anything it sounds like she is protecting something.

 

It is obvious that the Lotus has the interests of the Tenno faction at heart but it could be argued that those ends are not every Tenno's ambitions or goals. If the Lotus's goal was simply power, she would not allow the syndicates to have a foothold in the organization nor would she only allow Steel Meridian to join up for showing a value for sentient life.

 

If you are fighting two factions i think it's best if those two big factions are occupied on several fronts.

As long as the syndicates arent bothering you they can exist.

 

In fact taken farther into extrapolation, the problem with the Orokin and what may have started the whole mess is that they seemed to have no value for sentient life or said another way for life with a sense of free-will a synonym for 'sentience'. I don't know about anyone else, but a society that has little or no regard for sentient life comes off as pretty evil in my book.

 

There no info about how the Orokin saw things.

What we got is that the Sentients came back and started a war.

When the Orokin developed a weapon that could battle them the Sentients chose a new tactic.

They sent in a Sentient spy. The spy didn't follow all order and we ended up where we are.

Sentient are the enemy and look like they still are.

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It depends on the secrets are.

Given that she has not explained anything it sounds like she is protecting something.

 

 

 

 

If you are fighting two factions i think it's best if those two big factions are occupied on several fronts.

As long as the syndicates arent bothering you they can exist.

 

 

 

There no info about how the Orokin saw things.

What we got is that the Sentients came back and started a war.

When the Orokin developed a weapon that could battle them the Sentients chose a new tactic.

They sent in a Sentient spy. The spy didn't follow all order and we ended up where we are.

Sentient are the enemy and look like they still are.

 

There actually are input on how the Orokin viewed sentient life, the Synthesis scans and codex entries provide a picture of a caste based society who viewed free will as a flaw and thinking outside the box as a thing that deserved being gifted with atomization and the death of all the people you were raised with. That tells us much of the Orokin. Caste systems in the first place are designed to keep the top on top and the bottom in the bottom of society - that is observable social studies stuff there - while the executors that grudgingly except the Sentient project just vaporized the head of the Crewman Project for the project not fitting their guilding rules.

 

The Sentients, we have little input on. This will most likely be changed soon but if the Natah quest and synthesis scan input is correct, they are a synthetic organism that was created to extend solar rails into Space to the Tau Ceti system; a journey that drones and humans would have had a hard time surviving while staying true to Orokin Elite control. The Executors involved only seemed to calm when it was assured that the Sentients would not be able to survive void exposure which seems to be present in the Sol System or a method by which the Solar Rails are used and operated. Tge Sentient were made to adapt however, and it seems from Natah and her relative being able to make the travel, that while there is a cost, the trip could be accomplished by the time of the Old War. It is believeable that the entire cause of the Old War could be that the Sentient did not want to bow down to their intended purpose of being disposed after the Outer Solar Rails were constructed. Even the name we call the faction makes sense in this regard as to be sentient is to display free will.

 

Every source of info on the Orokin Elite has them being gaudy slave masters using tech and biological advancement to create servants and preserve their test tube baby way of life. An enforced order of sterile metal and ornate ivory where one was born, nay made, to be the job you were given and assigned to. Sounds pretty Orwellian if not outright evil empire right there. One could interpret that given that Natah had us execute the Orokin Elite and then go to sleep instead of killing us as per the original objective, that the Lotus willingly choose the Freedom of the Orokin citizens, Grineer, and Tenno supporters over her mission objective showing either a value of other sentient lives or more darkly, a desire to create a power vacuum that she could fill. Our being woke up to fight the Grineer Empire shows that for whatever reason, the Grineer trying to move down the path of their former masters is not something that the Lotus desires, whether for again preserving life and free will or just weakening a contrast to her powerbase is debateable but their isn't much evidence to support these actions as an attempt to gain a larger powerbase.

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Well, this is a Canadian game so there is no reason to believe they are using labeling from some other place.

The words Tenno and Model are next to each other so i am reading them like that.

If we start shuffling around one can turn anything into anything.

 

It's not from "some other place" it's common anywhere they speak English. "Domestic model XXYY" "International Model XXYY" hence the eminent possibility of "Tenno Model XXYY" meaning "The model for Tenno"

And I'm not "shuffling around" anything my example uses the words in the same order.

 

Have I asked this before... Is English your first language?

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