(Equinox Feedback/discussion) Descott - "i Believe The Good Players Will Keep Switching Forms To Maintain These Buffs"

[XxCurtennoxX]

Disclaimer: I love Equinox and have spent loads of time with her since i rushed her in the foundry. She's fun and interesting, so i love playing her.

So, Scott said in the devstream before U17 that "I believe that the good players will keep switching between forms to maintain these buffs".

No, Scott. No one does that. Ever.

Why?

Well, the main issue is that Mend/Main completely resets and has to be re-cast and re-filled when you switch forms.

This COMPLETELY discourages switching forms regularly. You can't store up your Maim counter and simply switch forms to maintain the buff, because everything resets. It's terribly implemented and to be honest, the meter should stick with Equinox between forms.

Secondly, the buffs that you actually receive are pretty damn terrible for two reasons:

1 - They decay over the duration. This is terrible, and i don't understand it. The buffs should be static over the duration, or just innate parts of each form, even if this means tweaking the numbers.

2 - The duration is incredibly short, which makes the decaying even worse. I, personally, don't have the room to build for duration, nor would i create a build dedicated to duration. 25 seconds is destroyed by the usual Fleeting Expertise + Streamline max efficiency build (You really kinda need high efficiency considering the high energy cost of Mend/Maim). Sure, you can offset it slightly with Primed Continuity. But why would you? Once again, the decaying just destroys these buffs too quickly over such a short duration, that it is in no way worth taking into consideration with a build.

The way equinox works with Mend/Maim and how the buff from Metamorphosis in general, really really discourages switching forms regularly. Ask most equinox players, and you'll find 90% or more of them will say "I use Day Form nearly all the time, i only switch to night for a heal if i need it".

(Side note - Mend's mechanics make no sense and anything stored over 2k is a waste due to no other effect)

I'm honestly not sure how a frame with 2 sets of abilities can synergize so badly with itself.

Whilst i love Equinox, the way the abilities work with each other is extremely unintuitive.

A good start would be to stop punishing players from switching forms when using Mend/Maim. Next, to further encourage form switching, the duration of the Metamorphosis buffs should increase slightly, and not decay (Even if this means number tweaks).

Equinox is an interesting, fun frame, that is sadly let-down by abilities that barely synergize with each other.

Edited August 19, 2015 by XxCurtennoxX

[DrBorris]

Equinox is very close to being "perfect", most changes would be tweaks to duration/range. The only ability that needs a major look at would be Mend. And as you point out, one of the most annoying parts about Mend/maim is that you cannot switch forms and retain your amassed damage. The same can be said for Pacify/Provoke. Whenever you switch forms (given that an ability is active), the ability should not cancel (aside from taking a short break while switching forms). You should be able to activate Mend & Maim in night form, gather damage, switch to day form, then release the damage that you accumulated in night form as Maim.

 

As for the switching buffs, I agree, they suck. It is a disadvantage to ever switch forms because her abilities will be canceled. The little buffs that come with the switch are not enough to compensate for the extra effort.

[AM-Bunny]

I completely agree that stored damage should be maintained after Metamorphosis. I was really flabbergasted when I saw that it wasn't.

 

In addition, I think that Mend should have a little bit of a buff, even if it's just enemy stun (like Maim, but with no damage) upon activation.

[Tyreuzs]

I'm honestly not sure how a frame with 2 sets of abilities can synergize so badly with itself.

Whilst i love Equinox, the way the abilities work with each other is extremely unintuitive.

 

A good start would be to stop punishing players from switching forms when using Mend/Maim. Next, to further encourage form switching, the duration of the Metamorphosis buffs should increase slightly, and not decay (Even if this means number tweaks).

[XxCurtennoxX]

 

I'm honestly not sure how a frame with 2 sets of abilities can synergize so badly with itself.

Whilst i love Equinox, the way the abilities work with each other is extremely unintuitive.

 

A good start would be to stop punishing players from switching forms when using Mend/Maim. Next, to further encourage form switching, the duration of the Metamorphosis buffs should increase slightly, and not decay (Even if this means number tweaks).

 

No, thank you for a gif ;)

I completely agree that stored damage should be maintained after Metamorphosis. I was really flabbergasted when I saw that it wasn't.

 

In addition, I think that Mend should have a little bit of a buff, even if it's just enemy stun (like Maim, but with no damage) upon activation.

Yep, i posted a seperate thread a few days ago all about Mend. It's lackluster and unfinished compared to Maim. It makes Night form way less desirable than Day because you can ironically survive better in Day Form.

[mdoucet]

What if Mend/Maim and Pacify/Provoke auras simply switched with Metamorphosis instead of deactivating? You could take your stored damage for Maim in day form, switch to night, and then sacrifice that damage for a heal. The same with Pacify/Provoke -- the defensive aura would simply replace the offensive aura and vice versa. The only time anything would be deactivated is when you toggled the skill directly or ran out of energy.

 

In either case you're still maintaining that balancing act, choosing whether to exhaust your battery on damage or healing, offense or defense. Maintaining the skills through Metamorphosis by replacing their active effect would definitely feel more fluid and encourage players to switch forms frequently. 

[Empiren]

This is the primary reason I'm withholding from purchasing Equinox.

 

It seems like they want to make players choose between light or dark, which means she ends up being a "meh" frame with only 75% efficiency compared to other.

[XxCurtennoxX]

This is the primary reason I'm withholding from purchasing Equinox.

 

It seems like they want to make players choose between light or dark, which means she ends up being a "meh" frame with only 75% efficiency compared to other.

Currently Day Form is way better, and it's much easier to survive as Day Form (ironically).

Night form is completely underwhelming.

[Enno69]

XxCurtennoX your idea is good. Honestly any buff to Equinox at all would be good. I don't agree at all that she is close to perfect or anything. IMO she's a great concept which was implemented terribly, possibly due to DE's fear of creating an "OP frame".

 

As you said, her powers don't synergize well with each other, but also, most of them are just too complicated to use for how little they provide ; the bonuses from switching form are indeed too short lived and not very strong, Mend can't hold a candle to the much more reactive Blessing, Pacify contradicts itself (normal range means anything beyond a meager 15 meters will hit you full strenght BUT more range means energy drain will quickly become unbearable), Provoke is weak - I've tested it, it increases abilities base strenght, not warframe power strenght, so it doesn't scale-, and Rage doesn't do anything besides emulating a single target speed Molecular Prime.

 

Maim and Rest are cool, but that's not enough. Maim takes way too long to charge up to decent damage except when allies can contribute, which means mostly only in defense. Besides, the drain is horrible. Otherwise you'll need max efficiency and primed flow to have a chance of turning that slash damage into something that will kill. Having the accumulated energy transfer from one form to another would be a great starting point, indeed.

 

Cheers !

[XxCurtennoxX]

XxCurtennoX your idea is good. Honestly any buff to Equinox at all would be good. I don't agree at all that she is close to perfect or anything. IMO she's a great concept which was implemented terribly, possibly due to DE's fear of creating an "OP frame".

 

As you said, her powers don't synergize well with each other, but also, most of them are just too complicated to use for how little they provide ; the bonuses from switching form are indeed too short lived and not very strong, Mend can't hold a candle to the much more reactive Blessing, Pacify contradicts itself (normal range means anything beyond a meager 15 meters will hit you full strenght BUT more range means energy drain will quickly become unbearable), Provoke is weak - I've tested it, it increases abilities base strenght, not warframe power strenght, so it doesn't scale-, and Rage doesn't do anything besides emulating a single target speed Molecular Prime.

 

Maim and Rest are cool, but that's not enough. Maim takes way too long to charge up to decent damage except when allies can contribute, which means mostly only in defense. Besides, the drain is horrible. Otherwise you'll need max efficiency and primed flow to have a chance of turning that slash damage into something that will kill. Having the accumulated energy transfer from one form to another would be a great starting point, indeed.

 

Cheers !

Pacify is now affected by Power Efficiency and it feels a lot more manageable now.

However, it suffers from HORRIBLE drop-off over range. It still feels not worth using.

 

Maim is fine, and the way it's charged up is fine. It's extremely powerful but you have to put some work in to make it that way, rather than the usual "Press 4 to win" abilities.

[DrBorris]

XxCurtennoX your idea is good. Honestly any buff to Equinox at all would be good. I don't agree at all that she is close to perfect or anything. IMO she's a great concept which was implemented terribly, possibly due to DE's fear of creating an "OP frame".

 

I don't know, I think she is pretty darn close. It really comes down to simple number changes to "fix" her, not much programing needed.

• Make the buffs of Metamorphosis permanent characteristics of the forms, maybe reduce the energy requirement.
• I have been using a max range build on Equinox and the range on Rest seemed pretty good, so I would just buff that to a 6 meter base (max range now with mods is about 8 meters). Rage... I don't know who thought giving this a small range would be a good idea, it should probably have a 10 meter range at least.
• Pacify/Provoke are actually very good abilities mechanics wise. Provoke can stay as is (now that mods effect energy drain), but change the energy drain of Pacify from a linear to a geometric system. In other words, the more enemies in range the less energy it takes per enemy. It also does not really need to have the falloff, it already only effects a certain radius of enemies unlike the other damage reduction abilities.
• Maim is fine, it is one of the only reasons people use Equinox at the moment (and it is such a good ability people still seek her out). Mend... not so much. Just have Mend reduce enemy speed based on the damage accumulated, not sure how to balance that for low versus high level, but it could add a very interesting aspect (ha) to Mend. If a way to balance low and high level stuff can't be found, just make it either 50% slow unmodable or 30% slow modable.

 

And of course have abilities not cancel when switching forms, so if you have Pacify active when you switch to day form, it will automatically turn into Provoke. And if you have Mend active and switch, the damage accumulated would carry over

Edited August 13, 2015 by DrBorris

[Enno69]

I don't know, I think she is pretty darn close. It really comes down to simple number changes to "fix" her, not much programing needed.

• Make the buffs of Metamorphosis permanent characteristics of the forms, maybe reduce the energy requirement.
• I have been using a max range build on Equinox and the range on Rest seemed pretty good, so I would just buff that to a 6 meter base (max range now with mods is about 8 meters). Rage... I don't know who thought giving this a small range would be a good idea, it should probably have a 10 meter range at least.
• Pacify/Provoke are actually very good abilities mechanics wise. Provoke can stay as is (now that mods effect energy drain), but change the energy drain of Pacify from a linear to a geometric system. In other words, the more enemies in range the less energy it takes per enemy. It also does not really need to have the falloff, it already only effects a certain radius of enemies unlike the other damage reduction abilities.
• Maim is fine, it is one of the only reasons people use Equinox at the moment (and it is such a good ability people still seek her out). Mend... not so much. Just have Mend reduce enemy speed based on the damage accumulated, not sure how to balance that for low versus high level, but it could add a very interesting aspect (ha) to Mend. If a way to balance low and high level stuff can't be found, just make it either 50% slow unmodable or 30% slow modable.

 

And of course have abilities not cancel when switching forms, so if you have Pacify active when you switch to day form, it will automatically turn into Provoke. And if you have Mend active and switch, the damage accumulated would carry over

DrBorris, yes, she is "close to be good" or even great... If the many tweaks and buffs are applied. What you are suggesting would change her significantly and make her, imo, much more satisfying to use (asin, you could feel you are achieving something while using other powers than Maim and Rest). My two cents :

 

- Have her keep her bonuses from 1 as permanent aspects of each form, that's cool.

- Of course, energy accumulated by her ult should carry over to her alternate form, until you die or falls in a pit. Also, something should be done against that insane drain.

- Rest and Rage should have a bigger range, but I still can't see the advantage of Rage against Molecular Prime. So perhaps Rage should have an additional effect or something.

- Provoke should affect warframe power strenght directly, and be a stronger %. If it scaled with how much PS allies had, would it be unbalanced ? Since it affects non-damaging abilities, it has some interesting potential, for ex it may buff the looting capabilities of Nekros and Pilfering Hydroid.

- Pacify should, imo, be an small aura that gives allies damage reduction, and it could have either a fixed duration (it would then be similar to Chroma's Elemental Ward) or drain energy based on how much damage the squad receives. It would not be too powerful : allies leaving the range would lose the bonus, and even in defense where everyone sticks together, it would not protect the pod, so traditional tactics like Globe and Cataclysm should still be used. It would simply open up new strategies for high level.

- Mend should be reworked. Maybe it could continously give health and energy regen (but not shields) to allies in range ? And recasting would offer something more than just healing, dunno what it could be.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Enno69

[Gahrzerkire]

Yep, i posted a seperate thread a few days ago all about Mend. It's lackluster and unfinished compared to Maim. It makes Night form way less desirable than Day because you can ironically survive better in Day Form.

 

Well yeah in t4 survival being nightform is stupid, you need that maim damage to go up to 1.5mil so you can one shot everything with an ale slash nuke. (the glory of bladestorm+maim). #oneshotalevel215bombard like nothing.

[XxCurtennoxX]

DrBorris, yes, she is "close to be good" or even great... If the many tweaks and buffs are applied. What you are suggesting would change her significantly and make her, imo, much more satisfying to use (asin, you could feel you are achieving something while using other powers than Maim and Rest). My two cents :

 

- Have her keep her bonuses from 1 as permanent aspects of each form, that's cool.

- Of course, energy accumulated by her ult should carry over to her alternate form, until you die or falls in a pit. Also, something should be done against that insane drain.

- Rest and Rage should have a bigger range, but I still can't see the advantage of Rage against Molecular Prime. So perhaps Rage should have an additional effect or something.

- Provoke should affect warframe power strenght directly, and be a stronger %. If it scaled with how much PS allies had, would it be unbalanced ? Since it affects non-damaging abilities, it has some interesting potential, for ex it may buff the looting capabilities of Nekros and Pilfering Hydroid.

- Pacify should, imo, be an small aura that gives allies damage reduction, and it could have either a fixed duration (it would then be similar to Chroma's Elemental Ward) or drain energy based on how much damage the squad receives. It would not be too powerful : allies leaving the range would lose the bonus, and even in defense where everyone sticks together, it would not protect the pod, so traditional tactics like Globe and Cataclysm should still be used. It would simply open up new strategies for high level.

- Mend should be reworked. Maybe it could continously give health and energy regen (but not shields) to allies in range ? And recasting would offer something more than just healing, dunno what it could be.

I believe you're forgetting she has 2 sets of abilities.

You can't compare one of 7 abilities to an ability from a frame with 4 abilities. Therefore, comparing Rage to M-Prime is rather silly. It's like comparing Mend to Blessing...

[Enno69]

I believe you're forgetting she has 2 sets of abilities.

You can't compare one of 7 abilities to an ability from a frame with 4 abilities. Therefore, comparing Rage to M-Prime is rather silly. It's like comparing Mend to Blessing...

No offence, but I don't think this is silly. The thing is, why would an efficient team use those powers when other frames do the exact same thing, but much better ? Sad fact is, currently, having a Nova and a Trinity in your squad offer a lot more utility than Equinox casting Rage and Mend. Even at the cost of an additional team slot, it's still worth it.

 

Which is why those powers should do something different than the ones they emulate. They should be something unique, so that they would be no competition. The same way, for instance, that Turbulence plays very differently from Snow Globe even though both can be described as protective barriers.

 

It's totally doable, really. Many players here have given interesting ideas on how she could be tweaked.

 

 

BTW yes she has two sets of abilties but as you know the main problem with her is precisely that you can't make good use of that "2 sets" mechanic, for reasons you and others already mentionned. So it's kind of a moot point right now.

[-dicht.Amducias-]

No offence, but I don't think this is silly. The thing is, why would an efficient team use those powers when other frames do the exact same thing, but much better ? Sad fact is, currently, having a Nova and a Trinity in your squad offer a lot more utility than Equinox casting Rage and Mend. Even at the cost of an additional team slot, it's still worth it.

Which is why those powers should do something different than the ones they emulate. They should be something unique, so that they would be no competition. The same way, for instance, that Turbulence plays very differently from Snow Globe even though both can be described as protective barriers.

It's totally doable, really. Many players here have given interesting ideas on how she could be tweaked.

BTW yes she has two sets of abilties but as you know the main problem with her is precisely that you can't make good use of that "2 sets" mechanic, for reasons you and others already mentionned. So it's kind of a moot point right now.

Imo Mend and Maim, both should deal slash dmg similar to embers WoF just for every enemy in range and not with 100% proc chance but something around 50% per tic, this wouldnt be op in any way and help her to scale well in endgame

[Pride]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/509256-equinox-qol-and-incentive-to-switch-forms/

there We have already discussed a system to improve the flow of equinox by allowing her to maintain her momentum while switching forms also commonly requested range to rest/rage and a tweak the passive are at discussion

Edited August 14, 2015 by Prideswrath

[XxCurtennoxX]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/509256-equinox-qol-and-incentive-to-switch-forms/

there We have already discussed a system to improve the flow of equinox by allowing her to maintain her momentum while switching forms also commonly requested range to rest/rage and a tweak the passive are at discussion

Already? That was created a day after this thread was created xD

[evilfluffy]

Equinox is very close to being "perfect", most changes would be tweaks to duration/range. The only ability that needs a major look at would be Mend. And as you point out, one of the most annoying parts about Mend/maim is that you cannot switch forms and retain your amassed damage. The same can be said for Pacify/Provoke. Whenever you switch forms (given that an ability is active), the ability should not cancel (aside from taking a short break while switching forms). You should be able to activate Mend & Maim in night form, gather damage, switch to day form, then release the damage that you accumulated in night form as Maim.

As for the switching buffs, I agree, they suck. It is a disadvantage to ever switch forms because her abilities will be canceled. The little buffs that come with the switch are not enough to compensate for the extra effort.

I agree she is good atm just not perfect small changes is all she needs like maybe a slight range buff to rest/rage and as has been stated keep accumulated damage when changing form. It is annoying to have 13k heal/damage and to find out you don't need heals/needs heals so you switch and have to rebuild.

[Volinus7]

When you play fully forma augmented saryn.... then play equinox.....

Saryn

instant nuke, fast casting animation

Ultra fast self heal + Rage + High HP = High Energy Gain

Molt damage decoy

 

Equinox

long animation, form changing delay, need long time to stack damage

Ultra slow self heal + need stacking + Low HP/Decay armor + Rage = Risky energy gain

Pacify is useless against nullifier, low damage tolerance.

 

IMO Equinox is a walking 20% strength mod.

[----Fenrir----]

I agree she is good atm just not perfect small changes is all she needs

 

No, she needs more than a few small number changes. Like someone wrote earlier, the synergy between most of her abilities is terrible.

 

"Rest" and "Rage" are like Nyx's "Psychic Bolts", which no one ever uses because they are Nyx's only ability that requires power strength and by optimizing for the other more useful abilities you end up with negative power strength making "Psychic Bolts" even more useless than they already are.

 

With Equinox it's the same, the third and fourth skills of both forms are not affected by duration at all so optimizing Equinox results in having a negative duration build which makes both "Rest" and "Rage" useless no matter what. And even a much needed range increase for those 2 abilities would not change that.

[Gunzu]

as I said before

 

This frame is boring, straight up.  I thought the concept was to promote switching between the 2 sides, but they actually make it so doing this is not a good idea, you keep no buffs, and 2 second cast between swaps which cannot be reduced... change this and let self buffs cross over as well and I might keep this frame, otherwise, trash bin once he/she gets to 30.

[-dicht.Amducias-]

When you play fully forma augmented saryn.... then play equinox.....

Saryn

instant nuke, fast casting animation

Ultra fast self heal + Rage + High HP = High Energy Gain

Molt damage decoy

Equinox

long animation, form changing delay, need long time to stack damage

Ultra slow self heal + need stacking + Low HP/Decay armor + Rage = Risky energy gain

Pacify is useless against nullifier, low damage tolerance.

IMO Equinox is a walking 20% strength mod.

Equinox is too weak atm but u dont know how to use her properly too ^^

Edited August 15, 2015 by W4vE

[Volinus7]

When fight a boss in a locked room without enemy fodders. Equinox can't stack damage.

Teammates will yell "Go cuddle the boss with your pacify we don't care if you die!!!"

 

^^^^^

Kinda funny comic idea for me.

[-dicht.Amducias-]

as I said before

This frame is boring, straight up. I thought the concept was to promote switching between the 2 sides, but they actually make it so doing this is not a good idea, you keep no buffs, and 2 second cast between swaps which cannot be reduced... change this and let self buffs cross over as well and I might keep this frame, otherwise, trash bin once he/she gets to 30.

Yes equinox is kinda weak but really u didnt play him or tested something with him lol, she is insane with the right use

When fight a boss in a locked room without enemy fodders. Equinox can't stack damage.

Teammates will yell "Go cuddle the boss with your pacify we don't care if you die!!!"

^^^^^

Kinda funny comic idea for me.

Which boss in warframe is an actual harm to you?

Edited August 15, 2015 by W4vE