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Pc Psa: Covert Lethality + Exalted Blade Changes


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Omg, there are a bunch of other weapons Excal gets bonuses from and they are all listed on the wiki clearly.

 

They are :  Dakra Prime, Prisma Skana, Jaw Sword,  Skana Prime, Cronus, Pangolin Sword, Skana, Heat Sword, Plasma Sword, Mire, Dark Sword, Ether Sword, Dual Ichor, Dex Dakra, Dual Zoren, Prisma/Dual Cleavers, Dual Ether, Dual Raza, Nami Skyla, Dual Heat Swords, Dual Kamas, Dual Skana, Dragon/Nikana.

 

And they are ALL viable with the right builds and if you use any of Excalibur's powers they get boosted by 10 to 100 to 400 times with Radial Blind, finishers, Radial Blind augment, Exalted Blade or Slash Dash, Radial Jav and their augments.

Isn't Dakra Prime outshine all those weapons? Or to some extent Dragon Nikana? Or even to some extent Scindo Prime. 

 

People won't leave the meta, they only change the meta.

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Exalted Blade at 175 % efficiency is so damn efficient that anyone can keep it going for almost forever in ANY mission. If you are killing enemies with it you WILL get energy back and especially if you have the Rage, Life strike combo or restores. For those people there is no problem, and they are free to choose whatever melee they want. Even if I want to level an unranked melee I could still play with friends, use Exalted Blade with Radial blind and still be useful to the team, while getting xp for my melee from my teammates' kills.

 

Radial Blind only builds are also extremely efficient at killing since you get 10 x damage from any weapon or EB and 100 x damage from finishers. Once again, it does not matter what weapon you take. As long as you can use Excal's other powers such as Radial Blind and Slash Dash to increase your combo multiplier and damage, you can keep killing upto really high levels, making any melee viable.

 

Meaning that if I can use ANY melee weapon coupled with Excalibur's powers with or without using EB, then how is anyone limited to the top tier? Wasn't that the whole point of the Excal rework, to make him a melee focused frame?

 

If you really wanted to play WITHOUT using Radial Blind, WITHOUT using Exalted Blade or WITHOUT using Slash Dash then why are you even playing Excal in the first place? Literally any melee weapon becomes better with his powers and that was already the case even before his rework thanks to the Augments and Radial Blind.

Neither of those arguments have anything to do with the core issue of having to chose between the normal high-tier weapons as to the now lower tier augmented weapons. No matter the build, or the duration, or however you play, if you use EB on Excal following this change all weapons with augments are now lesser choices. Can they be used? Yes. But so can every weapon in this game, you can use them all, but people like to use the best options, which augments no longer fit into with this shift. 

 

You can use your skana without bright purity all you want to fight off enemies, but no matter what combination of abilities and attacks you use that skana isn't going to out preform a d.nikana or dakra prime or any of the other top tier melee weapons doing that same deal. That augment mod is what gives a weapon like the skana a usefulness outside looks, but now that comes at a sacrifice as opposed to the weapons that are higher tier without augment use. Now how does that do anything other than just reduce our choices in terms of top tier melee weapons in combination with excalibur? Yeah you can still use, but it is permanently less viable that other alternatives at really no benefit. 

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Isn't Dakra Prime outshine all those weapons? Or to some extent Dragon Nikana? Or even to some extent Scindo Prime. 

 

People won't leave the meta, they only change the meta.

 

No it doesn't when you factor in you are talking about a melee based frame whose powers are solely about increasing melee damage.

 

My point was use any of those weapons with the right builds and with Excal's powers and you will be killing high level things with pretty much the same effectiveness all across the board.

 

When it comes to EB, weapons stats or Stance boosts don't matter. When it comes to Radial Blind, doing 100 k finisher damage with 1 weapon will not be outshined by doing 150 k finisher damage with say the Dakra Prime or even the Dual Ichors.

 

That will only matter once you reach level 100 enemies and still want to go further, but then that's what the top tier was made for in the first place.

Edited by Sci_Ant
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No it doesn't when you factor in you are talking about a melee based frame whose powers are solely about increasing melee damage.

 

My point was use any of those weapons with the right builds and with Excal's powers and you will be killing high level things with pretty much the same effectiveness all across the board.

 

When it comes to EB, weapons stats or Stance boosts don't matter. When it comes to Radial Blind, doing 100 k finisher damage with 1 weapon will not be outshined by doing 150 k finisher damage with say the Dakra Prime or even the Dual Ichors.

 

That will only matter once you reach level 100 enemies and still want to go further, but then that's what the top tier was made for in the first place.

It does matter.

 

For example, if I use Prisma Skana I'd likely to use Bright Purity. Which is ignored by Exalted Blade. Which means I waste a mod slot for exalted blade.

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So just tested and, I can still hit over 10k dmg with a crit with exalted blade (higher with elemental mods) even without covert, and i was using gleaming blight for the energy (which is easily manageable without it.) so not really a nerf, just makes it more down to earth, sorta...

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Neither of those arguments have anything to do with the core issue of having to chose between the normal high-tier weapons as to the now lower tier augmented weapons. No matter the build, or the duration, or however you play, if you use EB on Excal following this change all weapons with augments are now lesser choices. Can they be used? Yes. But so can every weapon in this game, you can use them all, but people like to use the best options, which augments no longer fit into with this shift. 

 

You can use your skana without bright purity all you want to fight off enemies, but no matter what combination of abilities and attacks you use that skana isn't going to out preform a d.nikana or dakra prime or any of the other top tier melee weapons doing that same deal. That augment mod is what gives a weapon like the skana a usefulness outside looks, but now that comes at a sacrifice as opposed to the weapons that are higher tier without augment use. Now how does that do anything other than just reduce our choices in terms of top tier melee weapons in combination with excalibur? Yeah you can still use, but it is permanently less viable that other alternatives at really no benefit. 

 

See you said it yourself, this change means that now EVERY weapon is viable for Excal's EB.

 

And let's be honest here, shall we? Whether or not Excal's Exalted Blade is affected by syndicate mods is besides the point. If you want maximum damage output even if it's complete overkill at 500 k you will obviously use the top tier melee weapons, spam Radial Blind, maybe add the augment and you're done.

 

But the same thing can still be done even while using any other melee weapon, since it's Excal's powers that make the weapons shine brighter than they ever could, so you could still do 300 k damage and use the Atterax, choosing it because it's a fun weapon for some people.

 

So as you can see the parameters for choosing weapons went from 'Syndicate augment + Passive activator' to 'Damage dealer, high status / crit based, passive activator, fun to use weapon, unranked weapon that needs to be ranked, etc.' Seems like more options to me.

Edited by Sci_Ant
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It does matter.

 

For example, if I use Prisma Skana I'd likely to use Bright Purity. Which is ignored by Exalted Blade. Which means I waste a mod slot for exalted blade.

 

If you intended to use the Prisma Skana, then why bother with Exalted Blade. You have to choose any one of them. That comes inherently to the power and not the removal of syndicate augment effects from it because you anyway can't completely maximize for EB if you also intend to maximize the melee weapon.

 

For example, I would rather use more elemental dual stat mods to make the wave damage more and increase the status chance on them, regardless of how my weapon was oriented. One would also rather use Berserker, True Steel and maybe Fury on the melee even if it wasn't a Crit based weapon, or if it was already a fast weapon.

 

Since EB has it's own stats, you WILL have to mod for it rather than your melee, IF you want the advantage of using that power. If you don't mod for it and mod only for the melee, you WILL lose EB effectiveness, but you will gain a lot of effectiveness on your melee to be used with Radial Blind or other powers and augments.

 

So it's inherent to the power that you can't have the best of both worlds. Now if the only thing that mattered to you was the Syndicate mod effect on EB, well then that's exactly why they had to remove it from EB, since it was narrowing choices to either the Skana or the Cleavers.

Edited by Sci_Ant
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If you intended to use the Prisma Skana, then why bother with Exalted Blade. You have to choose any one of them. That comes inherently to the power and not the removal of syndicate augment effects from it because you anyway can't completely maximize for EB if you also intend to maximize the melee weapon.

Uhm... For when I don't want to waste energy and use my melee? Yeah that time.

 

And what if I want to wield it for look but I also want to use my Exalted Blade?

Yeah.

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Would the people in charge of these changes at DE be willing to reconsider their current plan of removing the Syndicate effects from Exalted Blade, or at least do it on a "Case-by-Case" basis?

 

From what we were told there was loads of effort to have Syndicate mods work on Exalted Blade, and to remove every effect instead of just the "problematic" effects seems like a very knee-jerk and wasteful reaction that devalues the work put into this in the first place.

 

Everyone knew that the Covert Lethality mod had to change with it's reaction, but just because one mod made an ability broken doesn't mean other mods will necessarily have the same effect, and making changes on that assumption just makes this look like another knee-jerk reaction from DE (such as with the Draco Dilemma that occurred before) which makes the playerbase lose trust in you guys. 

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Uhm... For when I don't want to waste energy and use my melee? Yeah that time.

 

And what if I want to wield it for look but I also want to use my Exalted Blade?

Yeah.

 

Did you even read the rest of my post? Do you have a counterpoint for the technical limitations of modding for 2 completely different melee weapons with the same set of slots?

Edited by Sci_Ant
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Ok, first of all... I can't find words to mitigate my bluntness, but I'm going to do my best at it.

 

(...)

I wonder if DE ever fixed the host/client AI aimbot thing? That's not even the only factor that could be affecting damage intake. Though why anyone should have to take cover in a game that it's own Dev's have stated is against how they want it played is beyond me. 225 is almost 300 now? If 75% is as good as 100% I suppose you may be on to something.

(...)

 

If you're reffering to the aiming method of PvE enemies, they did change the way their accuracy works...

 

Speaking of aimbot -> DE, since I'm not using (nor ever will use) a controller other than keyboard and mouse, I want an option to turn that bug off. I don't need the game to default my upwards aiming to my Sentinel or my Kubrow, as I like the freedom to aim wherever and whenever I want to. On that note, I also want to turn off my crosshair without shutting off my entire HUD in the process. That stupid dot, I apologize for my bluntness, makes my eyes burn, and the fact that I can't turn it off individually makes my eyes bleed.

 

Ok, getting back to the original purpose of my reply...

 

(...)

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that maybe, just maybe, he wants his gear to match? It must be a popular thing since DE started to release those themed weapons sets to cater to Tenno of similar mindset.

(...)

 

... I didn't mention that he can't match his gear, I said its Primed ridiculous... For all I care, again I apologize for my bluntness, he could even use a thong as a Warframe and a rubber companion as a Melee weapon. I think that neither me or you have any power over his choice. As far as I know, I expressed an oppinion. Since you reacted to it, I assume you also like to match your gear. I'm not going to share my oppinion on your gear matching, as you already reacted to an oppinion that wasn't even directed at you in the first place.

 

(...)

Did you go to the beach today? Because you seem to have sand in your nether regions.

You should rinse that out.

 

Ok, I can't exactly say this in any other way so~...

 

... Last time I checked, I have gas... Mostly generated when people end up quoting me the way you just did. Definitely and exponentinally generated when people quote me for stuff I didn't even wrote like, as an example, the quote "All of this post, really." you just did... When that happens, like in all natural reactions, the atmospherical venting process gets rather noisy... And no, unfortunately for you, I didn't go to the beach...

 

Also, stop looking at your nether regions, assume that its the same for everyone, and throw their status on public display as a justification for an ending remark. its quite disturbing and disgusting.

 

--------------------- x ---------------------

 

 

Bottom line being, before this gets more out of hand because of someone else (which surely the blame will be pointed at me because I'm actually defending the new adjustments, and not complaining like most seem to be doing.), The more you focus on meta, the more restricted you will all feel... and be. I will applaud any adjustment that needs to be done, because there can be no adjustments if there is nothing wrong in the first place... And if an adjustment and/or fix appear, its because they caught out or found out something wrong with it. Remember, never assume nothing implemented is wrong. Someone -else- if not any of you, individually, will end up contributing to help the Devs, one way or another.

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this is a typical overreaction blanket response by overnerfing

 

at least make the effort to balance the nerf, remove most abuses of lethal damage like exalted blade etc but dont remove it entirely except for stealth finishes otherwise it really hurts legitimate uses of the mod and daggers

 

for example allow loki and ash to still have lethal damage non-stealth finisher attacks under their respective invisibility on unaware enemies 

 

dont make the mod and daggers useless after going to all the effort to give them purpose and a niche with a generic blanket nerf, make the changes more specific otherwise its a complete waste

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Did you even read the rest of my post? Do you have a counterpoint for the technical limitations of modding for 2 completely different melee weapons with the same set of slots?

But why not have the best of both worlds. EB worked fine before Covert Lethality come.

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Before I begin, let me say that I perfectly understand the excalibur changes, and though I don't like them or agree with the reason behind their implementation, if feel they are possibly conducive to better balance and in the worst case, they will have more or less no negative impact on the game.

 

Now, changing lovert lethality from undetected to finisher is unreasonable, unnecessary and, for me, a huge change for the worst. Aside from the fact that stealth finishers are insufferably bad in stealth play due to their duration and their inconsistent nature (in the rush of not being detected it is very easy to accidentally do a normal attack), limiting the mod to finisher makes the gameplay lose fluidity and flow, a very valued feature for stealth play, not to mention it restricts daggers to being only a stealth tool, since their synergy with invisibility skills in active missions is also wiped. Borderline, I wouldn't mind daggers being a stealth only tool, I wouldn't like it, but would understand, except that covert lethality or not, many other weapons could be considered upgrades to it in a stealth scenario. In the end making covert lethality little more than an ineffective, even token, and very much temporary solution to dagger being essentially useless. It really frustrates me that in the act of making changes to avoid we use only one weapon type with excalibur your changes simultaneously eliminate a weapon type from most peoples minds. A proper dagger rework would be nice, giving them a slight buff for regular play and innate lethality on stealth finisher would not be too much to ask in my opinion, that said, covert lethality, though only a partial solution as it was, was an interesting one, this, does not kill the mod, but makes it much less appealing and interesting.  

 

I whine at DE a lot, which isn't fair, because you have obviously made a great game since I'm still here, none the less, I hope enough care is put into the balancing of these kind of things to understand, at the very least, why this isn't an adequate change for the long term. So barring a full dagger rework, reverting to unaltered instead of finisher, would be a very much appreciated consideration. 

 

TL;DR:

Ew, bummer. 

 

The Exalted Blade thing was obvious, but Finisher only for Covert Lethality is disappointing. Finishers are so slow and cumbersome.

 

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Tenno,
 
Today Covert Lethality will be changed from ‘lethal damage if undetected’ to ‘lethal damage on stealth-finishers’. Covert Lethality is supposed to grant Lethal Damage for stealth tactics and not ground-slamming or obliterating blind enemies. We know this may come as a disappointment as many Tenno have sworn their life to the power of this Mod however the myriad of unintended uses was proving more powerful than intended.
 
After considering the use of Covert Lethality for Exalted Blade a debate ensued about the use of melee Mods that are specific to certain weapons; again, it was decided that while we intended for certain melee Mods to amplify Exalted Blade it didn't make sense for all melee Mods to apply.
From what we were told there was loads of effort to have Syndicate mods work on Exalted Blade, and to remove every effect instead of just the "problematic" effects seems like a very knee-jerk and wasteful reaction that devalues the work put into this in the first place.

 

Everyone knew that the Covert Lethality mod had to change with it's reaction, but just because one mod made an ability broken doesn't mean other mods will necessarily have the same effect, and making changes on that assumption just makes this look like another knee-jerk reaction from DE (such as with the Draco Dilemma that occurred before) which makes the playerbase lose trust in you guys. 

 

Megan clearly states the moves or powers that were being exploited by players, meaning they collected quantitative information on it from their tracking of the game and how players play it and what powers they use the most, which is how they give us statistical info like this > https://warframe.com/news/numbers-warframe-powers

 

This was not a knee jerk reaction, it was an analysed and thought over decision with data and numbers to back it up. They also explain that the way that players have stopped using other melee weapons with Excal solely due to the Syndicate augments is the reason why they are stopping it from affecting EB. Again, not knee jerk but an informed decision made after analysing the player base and their habits.

Edited by Sci_Ant
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This was not a knee jerk reaction, it was an analysed and thought over decision with data and numbers to back it up. They also explain that the way that players have stopped using other melee weapons with Excal solely due to the Syndicate augments is the reason why they are stopping it from affecting EB. Again, not knee jerk but an informed decision made after analysing the player base and their habits.

Why don't they nerf Loki Vauban or stuff like that already? Because with what I see Loki is overwhelmingly used.

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Man now I can't use Prisma Skana on Excalibur. It's not even the damage that I liked, but the style. Excalibur and Skana seemed like they were designed together. Now it's under par with other weapons and I see no real reason to use it other than the look. If it was on par, sure why not, but it's under par.

 

I'd be happy with no Syndicate effect but with the damage boost still working.

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But why not have the best of both worlds. EB worked fine before Covert Lethality come.

 

But that 'best of both worlds' you are talking about is most logically the only thing that was in common between the Skana and Exalted Blade - THE SYNDICATE EFFECT.

 

You, even ME and a lot of other people were, BY OUR OWN CHOICES, stuck to using the Prisma Skana since it gave the additional boost of 100 % damage and the Syndicate proc effect. If I can accept that I was, by my own choice and by the flawed game design, limited to using that one weapon OVER ALL OTHERS just for Exalted Blade maximistation, then you have to agree that DE had a completely reasonable response in order to stop that from happening and to stop us from limiting ourselves to certain weapons due to specific syndicate mods.

 

EDIT: And yet, no one is stopping you from using the Prisma Skana. It hasn't lost it's effectiveness at all when considered on it's own! With Radial Blind, Slash Dash, Javelin and their augments, you STILL can do a LOT of damage with that weapon. Hell, it's actually a great and fun weapon with a lot of Crit/zerker potential, so you still have that.

Edited by Sci_Ant
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See you said it yourself, this change means that now EVERY weapon is viable for Excal's EB.

 

And let's be honest here, shall we? Whether or not Excal's Exalted Blade is affected by syndicate mods is besides the point. If you want maximum damage output even if it's complete overkill at 500 k you will obviously use the top tier melee weapons, spam Radial Blind, maybe add the augment and you're done.

 

But the same thing can still be done even while using any other melee weapon, since it's Excal's powers that make the weapons shine brighter than they ever could, so you could still do 300 k damage and use the Atterax, choosing it because it's a fun weapon for some people.

 

So as you can see the parameters for choosing weapons went from 'Syndicate augment + Passive activator to 'Damage dealer, high status / crit based, passive activator, fun to use weapon, unranked weapon that needs to be ranked, etc.' Seems like more options to me.

Why are you so focused on EB even though the absolute use of just EB is not the point. It is using EB alongside the actual melee weapon. The problem was never that we couldn't use any weapons with EB, this existed prior to this coming change and will exist after. The list of best choices however shall dwindle ever smaller, for absolutely no reason. 

 

Again this about more than just EB, okay sure we can mod anything to maximize the potential of EB but can we also mod it to preform this while also doing an equally adequate job on its own? Not all melees are made equal, in fact a large majority lack purposeful uses, which leaves a small portion to rely on for scaling gameplay. Making it so that a part of these weapons require a mandatory reduction in a frames function is by no means aiding the matter. 

 

The weapon should be allowed to shine too, in fact that is the issue, players want a variety of weapons that can make EB shine and also be able to shine on its own to which the numbers capable of this are being reduced. 

 

And I'm not sure I see this the same way, it isn't going from purely syndicate aug weapons to all weapons with high stats. It's going from all weapons with high stats to all weapons with high stats excluding augment weapons. Currently I can just as effectively use a dakra prime to a prisma skana with bright purity without worrying about either preforming poorly on their own or dragging down the effectiveness of my EB, but without the augment it is quite clear that I'm losing out with the prisma skana. All this is doing is reducing the pool of useful weapons that can be used in tandem with Excalibur's entire kit. 

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Just wanted to add my feedback. I get the intent behind this nerf, but would like to see the damage buffs remain from the syndicate mods, but remove the radial explosion and buff. This way people that like using the skana or dual cleaver wont be at a disadvantage if they want to use them.

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And excalibur is out of the game's meta and back on the useless bench.

 

I guess we'll just go back to our ult spamming frames that could already out damage exalted blade instead. But hey, those clearly don't take priority over a single direction blade beam attack.

Edited by Oizen
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On the topic of Covert Lethality, yeaaahh, can't say I'm feeling this.

It's fair enough that things like Exaulted Blade and Ground Smash invis Ashs and Lokis could make this thing absolutely ridiculous, I get that. But limiting the thing to stealth-finishers only is beyond a terrible design choice. For two reasons:

First, the more situational a mod is, the worse it gets.

Second, stealth finishers are a terrible design choice as a whole... In their current state. They're nifty, but incredibly cumbersome. It's the same reason you guys had to change Ash's Blade Storm to add clones; It takes too long. So unless you want to give everyone who performs a stealth finisher a mini version of Blade Storm, I can't really agree with the change here you guys :[.

I outright try to avoid finishers just so im not stuck in an animation that eats away two seconds of my invisibility time. And it's not like it would be OP to keep undetected insta-kills in. For one; you have to do it with a freaking dagger of all things. So not only does that limit your AoE, but you also get dangerously close to touching the model of the enemy and causing yourself to be detected, ruining it. Second, you'd have to hop back and forth between enemies. Abilities would make the idea of going around target to target slashing throats while invisible negligable.

But it would be amazing to use against the rarer, heavy units. Especially energy drainers. C'mon guys, don't ruin such a good mod that made daggers worth using.

Edited by Haldos
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....and want to avoid making it so that you only want to play Excalibur with one or two specific weapons.

 

Awesome, does this mean that we'll finally see the Soma and Boltor prime nerfed to facilitate further diversity in primary weapons?

Can't wait to see people rocking the Hind.

More seriously, I'm not sure how I feel about this.

I dust Excalibur off every so often, my melee weapon's an afterthought as it's slotted up with mods for when I need or want to use exalted blade - perhaps this brings it back down to the point it was at with the initial release, more or less, bar no longer having frontal invulnerability due to the parkour stamina overhaul, but, it's not this that's the issue here; it's the feeling for some that this taints their experience over what they see as a knee jerk reaction to a problem that they called before the release of the mod that brought this about.

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