Pc Psa: Covert Lethality + Exalted Blade Changes

[sunnyx_o]

First of all, I want to say big ups to Ithloniel for typing a very eloquent post (#394 for those curious) and allowing me to cut to the meat of what I came here to say;

 

Once these changes are implemented regarding augments effecting EB (which I'm sure they will be, since this thread and any amount of input from players on the issue will be ignored by DE with 99% certainty) people hoping for maximum damage output on EB will have one single weapon type to turn to; daggers. In case I just lost anyone with that statement I'd like to point out a single thing, daggers are now the only melee weapon in the game (afaik) that have an exclusive mod granting 100% base damage bonus that isn't a syndicate augment. I hope the irony of this isn't lost on anybody. [edit; i was misled into believing it was a 100% damage boost but the mod says extra 100 damage which is w/e in regards to EB]

 

Personally, I'll keep using my Prisma Skana for the majority of missions. That weapon fits my aesthetic with Excal just too perfectly and I don't really care if I have to slash at harder enemies one or two more times.

 

What I have to say next is specifically targeted at the devs;

 

If you want every weapon (or at least every weapon-type) to be a viable choice for all players in every situation then you need to rethink a good deal of things. Ithloniel has some great ideas, maybe you guys should reach out and offer them a corner office (if they aren't looking for that kind of work, I have been thinking about a career change lately and we seem to have similar trains of thoughts [if you're reading this Ithloniel, we should be friends!]). 

 

I won't waste my breathe by sharing what changes I think would be nice to see. If you want some ideas, pay me! 

Edited August 15, 2015 by Sunnyxo

[Dark_Sp00n]

So, when exactly will covert lethality be available for dual daggers?^^

[shut]

 

Next week we intend to limit the Melee mods that work with Exalted Blade strictly to generic mods (ie: Pressure Point, Molten Impact, etc) but not weapon-specific augments. We appreciate that this will remove certain fitting strategies however we feel that those combos were not the intention of the ability and want to avoid making it so that you only want to play Excalibur with one or two specific weapons.

 

That makes Syndicate melees go from the best weapons for EB to the worst.

 

You guys are making this change because you want to improve the weapon variety, but the result of this is that you're just throwing more weapons into the "lol your EB is going to suck if you use this" pile. Thrown weapons and the rare Status-built weapons can now enjoy their remaining days being neglected by Excalibur with their new Skana, Cleaver, and Jaw Sword brethren.

Most can agree that the Syndicate mods encouraged the use of a handful of weapons over all others, but seriously, turning the syndicate mods into empty slots as soon as you hit 4 doesn't solve this problem; it only flips it into the opposite extreme.

 

 

You know what the solution is? Let the mods affect EB. Let EVERY mod affect EB. No slot should be effectively empty when you hit 4.

If leads to something being overpowered, then no problem; just do another Covert Lethality and cleverly change the mod's effect to something that'll greatly benefit the weapon and significantly (but not excessively) boost Exalted Blade. Covert Lethality's new additive formula is a good example of this; it boosts the crap out of daggers, and gives Exalted Blade a different niche (infinite-damage Finishers at the cost of a chunk of regular damage) that isn't too strong or too weak.

 

Let's see more of that with Syndicate mods. If their boosts would be overpowered on EB (like Skana's and Cleavers'), then just change the boosts so that they affect EB less without hindering their effectiveness on the actual Skanas and Cleavers.

Hint: Additive boosts are your friend.

Edited August 15, 2015 by SortaRandom

[Nichivo]

Couldn't they just removed

 

1: EB from working with it

 

2: Slam attacks working on it.

 

Stealth finishers are useless, just slow down gameplay, and usually area  1 hit kill if you mod properly anyway. 

They not only could have, but should have. At the end of the day EB will still be OP, and now covert lethality is junk.

[AdFinitum]

This is ridiculous - EB is overpowered on its own ( it was ever since Excals rework ) - the syndicate effect maybe contributes 1% to the total damage and the health regen is barely enough for low level and especially a melee frame deserves it more than a gunner. Actually the weapon + mod that will replace the syndicate mod will make EB do more damage since everyone doing high level uses Life Strike already.

 

I hate it when too many are too easily influencable by false arguments.

 

The real Excal nerf will come later when they realize the syndicate removal didnt change anything. I predict it will most likely involve range affecting EB's range ( I am almost sure that this is what makes it OP ).

 

But the harm of removing a mere utility / fun syndicate effect will not be reverted even when they realize what they did was perfectly useless.

 

And Covert Lethality needed a proper ballancing and not a destructive change which turns it into a useless mod. If I want to insta kill while stealthing I use Loki with Hush and blow them to smithereens with Tonkor / Dread / Vectis...

 

Result : Less fun + No proper ballancing - at least we got used to it by now

Edited August 15, 2015 by AdFinitum

[Flowen231]

DE, listen. I'm a reasonable person, I understand that nerfs are part of the whole balance thing. You guys said you would leave the zephyr/tonkor combo in because of the amount of resources that go into making that combo work.

 

Now let me ask you... Why wasn't that mentality used when you guys were on the fence about nerfing the synoid gammacor? Last I remember, it takes 5 costly sacrifices, roughly 340,000 standing to get, one weapon slot, one catalyst, and 4-6 forma in order to have the ungodly powerful weapon that was the old synoid. (Also, since this is the effort that one needs for every syndicate weapon, why arent they all as strong as the marelok or the rakta ballistica? That's for another topic though.)

 

Now, I've been maining excal since I started playing this game, from the start he was the most fun, and in every situation, a very reliable frame. I forma'd him 4 times in order to keep his aura slot neutral so I could use any aura at any time without ruining my build. Then the radial blind nerf came, and naturally, I felt like all that work was wasted. Excal gets exalted blade, and I love it so much that I add an extra 3 forma just to change my build around to match his new meta. Parkour and stamina 2.0 come out, and yes, excal was indirectly nerfed, but I still loved him, and I gave him 2 more forma (was about to give him a 3rd to fit that maxed parkour element mod). And now, you guys take away one of the things that made exalted blade so good. 

 

Listen, I'm a vet and 3/4ths at this point, I don't have a lack of resources, I can just move on to the next thing, but there is a certain group of people who always get affected by these sudden nerfs: Those dedicated warframe players who put the time into maximizing this stuff, only to see their effort rewarded with a kick on the neck in the form of a weapon/frame that is simply not what they were working towards. Lots of these people are newer players, who unlike me, don't have access to lots of resources to recoup their losses, and the message you're sending them is "Keep investing in good gear, we'll make sure it all goes to waste"

 

This may be a selfish request, but whenever you make changes like these, you could distribute a pass that lets you undo everything you've done to the frame/weapon that is affected (lets say the pass expires in 48 hours to avoid people cheating the system). I know I'm not a fan of wasting my time and resources, and I doubt anyone with half a brain stem appreciates it either.

 

EDIT/TL:DR: Please don't misunderstand: I don't care about the synoid, and  I'm not mad that they nerfed excal, I used him when he was crap, and I'll use him now. What I hate is how DE doesn't thoroughly test their own game before releasing things, then they pass a knee-jerk reaction nerf (not saying it wasn't coming) which negatively affects players who merely liked, and put time into the content that was released.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Haldos
Cleaning.

[Tatersail]

Keep syndicate proc...

 

remove +100% damage

[Donutdude]

Whilst I'm going to miss the Purity and Justice augment blasts, I understand the reasoning behind it.  I've stopped using an Exalted Blade Excalibur because I just don't like how faceroll it is.  This should help it a touch.  Good work.

[Riasiru]

Keep syndicate proc...

 

remove +100% damage

 

Let me stop you there, that WOULD make Covert Lethality pointless. As is, the stealth bonus on that mod is pointless. Take an unranked Skana into a T3 Void mission as Ash and use his teleport on a heavy gunner to get the finisher prompt. No mods, no nothing. If you channel it and are lucky enough to land a crit you'll almost one shot it... No mods... Nearly one shot it... Ok, now apply this to Excalibro and his Radial Blind if you augment it. Covert Lethality was already in the game but better because you can use it on any weapon, not just daggers. The damage part of the mod is its only saving grace. If they remove that they might as well just remove the mod and give people fusion cores to make up for putting it in the game and forcing them to rank it up.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Haldos
Cleaning.

[FelisImpurrator]

Ew, bummer. 

 

The Exalted Blade thing was obvious, but Finisher only for Covert Lethality is disappointing. Finishers are so slow and cumbersome.

so pretty much just made that dagger mod useless. good job.

On the other hand, doesn't it still give 100 base, scaling damage?

 

My Ceramic Dagger is still going to hit like a truck made of smaller trucks, it just isn't going to be a vorpal blade in the hands of Equinox anymore...

[Sanguinariness]

Nah use D nikana, Arcane grace, Radial blind + Radiant finish 60% dmg in squad GJ

[Karixolu]

Hurray for the changes to Covert Blade! It should only be for daggers. But the change to " Not working on blinded enemys " or " not working on Savage Silence " afflicted enemys was a bit drastic. In every sense of the word, they are a Finisher, and you even get the " Steath " mini-mission objective for killing enemys affected by blind.

 

The changes to the syndicate mods I'm half, and half on. While it's nice that they onyl work for those weapons. The procs were useful, and since the changes to blocking have occured, as in, you still take X damage, it makes Excal feel less.. fun. Blocking everythign from the front was nice, because it meant while in Exalted blade, you had to face down your enemys. You could still be hurt form behind!

 

In addition, since the block change. Life Strike has become near useless. Assuming you're going to take away the Channeling bonus' from Exalted Blade, since it's its own weapon, you lose 5 energy per bullet fired at you while channeling, since you auto parry. Going from 225 energy to 0 in a matter of seconds, and getting 1 life strike hit off, while two heavy gunners were shooting at me, doing about 9-15 damage a hit, didn;t feel like it was an " ultimate " ability.

 

Is there any way to change Excaliburs blocking to TRUE blocking, and take off the energy cost while blocking? This also occurs for Valkyr. If you channel while in Hystaria, and block, you lose energy, despite not even getting damaged.

[AM-Bunny]

On the other hand, doesn't it still give 100 base, scaling damage?

 

My Ceramic Dagger is still going to hit like a truck made of smaller trucks, it just isn't going to be a vorpal blade in the hands of Equinox anymore...

Yeah, I still think that it's worth slotting on a dagger. I'm sure there are those that would say the weapon category itself is not worth the time after this nerf, bit I've always been fond of it, so I wouldn't say the mod is 'useless'.

[venon23]

Hurray for the changes to Covert Blade! It should only be for daggers. But the change to " Not working on blinded enemys " or " not working on Savage Silence " afflicted enemys was a bit drastic. In every sense of the word, they are a Finisher, and you even get the " Steath " mini-mission objective for killing enemys affected by blind.

 

The changes to the syndicate mods I'm half, and half on. While it's nice that they onyl work for those weapons. The procs were useful, and since the changes to blocking have occured, as in, you still take X damage, it makes Excal feel less.. fun. Blocking everythign from the front was nice, because it meant while in Exalted blade, you had to face down your enemys. You could still be hurt form behind!

 

In addition, since the block change. Life Strike has become near useless. Assuming you're going to take away the Channeling bonus' from Exalted Blade, since it's its own weapon, you lose 5 energy per bullet fired at you while channeling, since you auto parry. Going from 225 energy to 0 in a matter of seconds, and getting 1 life strike hit off, while two heavy gunners were shooting at me, doing about 9-15 damage a hit, didn;t feel like it was an " ultimate " ability.

 

Is there any way to change Excaliburs blocking to TRUE blocking, and take off the energy cost while blocking? This also occurs for Valkyr. If you channel while in Hystaria, and block, you lose energy, despite not even getting damaged.

theres a point yea blocking was dumb from DE the rest i agree with the nerfs and it sould been worse  love too see this qq 

[Endrance]

Due this change to the Covert Lethality only affecting finishers (like it«s how it's supposed to)

 

I would like to know, when are the finisher moves for MOA's and Ancients going to be implemented?

 

 

I've been using the mod, "teleport only" on my Ash since it's release, and unfortunatly i had to use the stealth modifier "bug" to deal with Moas and Ancients, since they don't proc the finisher animation, therefore, cannot be lethaled.

 

 

Now, don't come here saying, thats impossible to finisher a MOA, it's a machine, you don't need to slit it's throat, but you can, stab the power core, the energy source, the etc etc.

 

AS for Ancients, same. Just because they're fossil armor, or big fat mutants, they should still have a finisher proc.

[Ketec]

finishers especially are EXTREMELY random, depend on latency, host, are extremely slow and inefficient and are no good in 90% of the game modes.

The whole finisher concept is completely flawed.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Haldos
Cleaning.

[OvAeons]

could have just made covert lethality not effect certain melee attack, EX: ground slams and slide slide attacks. having to perform a finisher is still usable but slow and the lack of animation variation is tiresome : / being able to continue  just a normal attack and not having to stealth finish would be fine... saves .5 second but that is all the difference...

 

but now the excal 'fix' will literally make several melee 'never used again' :P hel i will never use mire, skana prisma again. the only thing that made them good is not in effect anymore and that sword passive buff is not enough to make swords out perform the good melee.

[Lichcontract]

Rant start.

I'm genuinely thinking of taking it off my Sheev now...If it didn't have the plus 100 damage I would drop it, you might as well just take a heavy weapon since they have comparable damage with larger damage multipliers on their stances(lookin' at you Tempo Royale 5x damage multiplier) no need to stealth when you can just oneshot anyway and if you do wanna stealth and you go for finishers you'll be doing more than enough damage anyways(1600% melee damage ignoring armor and resistances and can crit).

Sure daggers have the shortest finisher animation but realistically you don't do many stealth finishers in this game, in my experience I won't get more than 10 stealth kills(almost all at long distance with the Dread at the start of the mission), let alone stealth finishers in a non solo setting.

How often do you get melee stealth finishers in a non solo mission that isn't spy or rescue? I get that it's meant to be niche but even so it's got limited use. Only certain Warframes like Ash, Loki, Banshee, Mirage, Oberon, Equinox and Xcal would really be able to take advantage of this. They should have just made it not apply to Xcals exalted blade in the first place.

Also it only works on daggers, whose animation modifiers are one of the slowest in the game. Having this mod made them more usable, as in order to combat that slowness you would just try to stealth and insta kill anyway.

Sure the argument can be made for Ghost, Stalk and Arcane trickery but again that's kinda niche too, not to mention the plat or grinding of raids necessary to get that enhancement.

I feel like they should just rework stealth. Imo all stealth finishers should be insta kill anyway since 1. The enemy doesn't know you're there and 2. They would be exposing their vulnerable areas due to the lack of enemy awareness.

Rant end.....for now.

TLDR: I don't even know what I'm trying to say, I'm just kinda sad. :C

[Ironman312]

Why not put up a poll about what we think about these changes?

Wouldn't be a lot better if we could find a solution that is good for most of the players and not just a small portion of players.

[Shiichibukai]

This constant "tweaking" of stuff you guys at DE have been doing without the consideration of the community is getting a bit annoying. Exalted blade was totally fine I honestly dont see a downside to it being able to use all the melee mods. Covert Lethality is gonna work as it should be which i dont rlly care but nerf exalted blade? Why?

 

I really hope you guys are gonna read this topic and reconsider because you didnt with hydroid - not at all like you didnt even read a single bit of the topic on hydroid's changes (I mean messed up changes). So yea... -.-

[HeroPwn]

Actually I'm fine with the EB change, sure I won't enjoy my skana/dual cleaver augments, BUT, the main thing EB was trying to do is to not rely on ANY SPECIFIC weapons, but with it taking effect of any mods on your weapon, it forced players to utilize only the prisma skana/skana/skana prime or the Dual Cleaver/Prisma Dual Cleaver. That's way less than what Valkyr has available to choose to boost her damage.

 

So EB does what it was intended to do, not force a player into a specific build.

 

What I'm mad tho, is that only 2 weapons are viable for finishers and neither of them are fast enough on both side. Those 2 weapons are 1 handed swords, which the back finisher is way faster than the front finisher. Or the 1 handed dagger, which the frontal finisher is slightly faster than the back finisher.

 

And we've been asking to change the finisher button to the action button (X by default on PC) rather than the melee button for months now. Sure we like destroying a lvl 100 corrupted bombard with a finisher, but it's a waste of time doing one on a corrupted butcher.

Edited August 15, 2015 by HeroPwn

[Rebellis]

The EB change in regard to syndicate mods will not increase weapon diversity and here's why. A max efficiency Excal build can keep EB going from start to finish in any mission. From wave 0 to wave 40 is no problem. You only need one energy orb every 30 seconds or so to keep it going. For endless mission types, by the time energy drain does become a problem, switching to your normal melee weapon is just about useless against mobs of such high level enemies.

Using the syndicate augments with EB brings much needed diversity. Between the Skana, Prisma Skana, Dual Cleavers, Prisma Dual Cleavers, and Mire you're able to choose whether you want health or energy, and whether you want viral, corrosive, or blast AoE. It's something totally worth pursuing.

Without the syndicate augments, players don't need anything but the free Skana they were given at the beginning of the game. You don't need Dakra Prime, Dragon Nikana, or anything else because your choice of weapon doesn't matter now. The effect is the same. There is no diversity. It's a one size fits all build regardless of weapon.

[HeroPwn]

The EB change in regard to syndicate mods will not increase weapon diversity and here's why. A max efficiency Excal build can keep EB going from start to finish in any mission. From wave 0 to wave 40 is no problem. You only need one energy orb every 30 seconds or so to keep it going. For endless mission types, by the time energy drain does become a problem, switching to your normal melee weapon is just about useless against mobs of such high level enemies.

Using the syndicate augments with EB brings much needed diversity. Between the Skana, Prisma Skana, Dual Cleavers, Prisma Dual Cleavers, and Mire you're able to choose whether you want health or energy, and whether you want viral, corrosive, or blast AoE. It's something totally worth pursuing.

Without the syndicate augments, players don't need anything but the free Skana they were given at the beginning of the game. You don't need Dakra Prime, Dragon Nikana, or anything else because your choice of weapon doesn't matter now. The effect is the same. There is no diversity. It's a one size fits all build regardless of weapon.

That's one bad argument, since now you can decide to equip ANYTHING, let me ask you this, would rather take a skana or a scindo prime to a T4S? You were limited to only choose 6 weapons (And seriously, only 2 of them were good by themselves), now you can have a choice to pick from over 75 melees weapon.

[Rebellis]

That's one bad argument, since now you can decide to equip ANYTHING, let me ask you this, would rather take a skana or a scindo prime to a T4S? You were limited to only choose 6 weapons (And seriously, only 2 of them were good by themselves), now you can have a choice to pick from over 75 melees weapon.

 

I don't need either. I can keep EB up for the entire mission, do tons more damage, and be a better help to the team.

 

By the time energy drain were to become a problem, switching to scindo is going to feel like using a skana.

 

With the changes being proposed, there's no need for the Scindo P, or anything other than the free Skana.

 

Your argument is invalid.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Rebellis

[HeroPwn]

I don't need either. I can keep EB up for the entire mission, do tons more damage, and be a better help to the team.

 

By the time energy drain were to become a problem, switching to scindo is going to feel like using a skana.

 

So your argument is invalid.

You can deny it all you want but you get more diversity from choosing any melee weapons than just 6.

EB was meant to not rely on a specific weapon(s) (it was even said when the rework was released), and weapon-specific augments indirectly forces a player to CHOOSE a SPECIFIC WEAPON.