So What Exactly Was The Point Of The Syndicates?

[Onisa]

Every mod I named, aside from shocking speed, is fairly popular among the users of the frames they go on and the Rakta Ballistica is an insane upgrade from its normal counterpart. So yes what I said still stands since they have not been nerfed yet.

Given Rakta Ballistica is DESteve's baby I doubt it'll get changed again.

Hek, just look at how they resisted changing the main damage type. It used to be impact based, and it was maintained that the proc 'more than made up for the damage type'.

[Pride]

Every time something nice comes out of them it is nerfed into the ground.

 

Tower keys - nerfed

 

Nice little arm laser - nerfed

 

Greedy pull finally comes along and give Mag some much needed team utility - nerfed

 

Hydroid has a nice mod that helps farming - nerfed

Tower keys um um um you realize people got so many keys they still havent used them all right?

 

Arm laser where you even there for that? every single party was an arm laser fest every other side arm was impotent and irrelevant by comparison incase you need a reminder go to pvp without a heavy weapon right now and then come back to complain when those get nerfed  

 

greedy pull team utility .... shield polarize? that aside she was ruining the game and it was fixed im happy with the results why arent you?

 

hydroid that wasnt really a nerf per say that was a redirect. now all enemies always drop extra loot AND your allies are allowed to shoot/use abilities this opened up synergy between nekros hydroid and equinox to allow quadruple loot via tentacles doubling then maim slicing every enemy in half to be desecrated twice. so as far as im concerned the loot potential in this game got buffed with that patch.

TLDR if you want a broken game where everything is cheesed go play a korean mmo this is warframe and we take pride in the awkward balance we have where everything is broken but its balanced because everything is equally broken. not exceptionally broken but equally broken and you best learn to live with it

[MumblesMcphatty]

Syndicates are broken sure - but none of the listed reasons are why that is so.

[Ezariel]

Nerfs not the only problem of Warframe.

 

 

At this moment, Warframe do not support the new players, not encourage them in any way, also does not try to stop the old players.

 

If you start playing and take Excalibur, you can play fair to middling. But take Volt or Mage and you will be rekt. Why? Because Volt is weak, Mag is specialized. Excalibur It requires the least resources to build it and still can be strong. Most of frames/weapons requires specific Mod's which are hard to come by (Alarms/Orokin Vault etc). The point is, new player don't have chance play play with satisfaction and gain new stuff. It's unprofitable and annyouing. Deffinitly better is let other play insted of you (Taxi!). 

Same with forming. After use forma, item level is decrased to 0. So? What you wanna do with lv0 stuff? Nothing. You can just stand and wait until you mates exp you. No, it's not fun...

[Uhkretor]

(...)

If you start playing and take Excalibur, you can play fair to middling. But take Volt or Mage and you will be rekt. Why? Because Volt is weak, Mag is specialized. Excalibur It requires the least resources to build it and still can be strong. Most of frames/weapons requires specific Mod's which are hard to come by (Alarms/Orokin Vault etc). The point is, new player don't have chance play play with satisfaction and gain new stuff. It's unprofitable and annyouing. Deffinitly better is let other play insted of you (Taxi!). 

Same with forming. After use forma, item level is decrased to 0. So? What you wanna do with lv0 stuff? Nothing. You can just stand and wait until you mates exp you. No, it's not fun...

(...)

 

Ok, just taking this chance to correct your statement using a very valid and truthful fact.

 

... A Warframe is only as good as the player that is handling it. The same for any equipment that the player itself will be using. My brother, as an example, started with Volt... and is -still- using Volt and doesn't understand why the community, in general, says that Volt is weak. Volt isn't weak, Volt is simply being used in the wrong way. I have a friend that started out with Mag and she doesn't understand why the community, again in general, say that Mag is weak. Like Volt, Mag is simply being used in the wrong way. The builds used might be, or not, debateable as being wrong or not but its just like I said - A Warframe is only as good as the player that's handling it.

 

... Also, about the support for new players that you say the game doesn't provide and/or encourage them, including not stopping the old players... Isn't that our responsibility, as "veterans", to provide such support? In what way do you thing that old players need to be stopped, exactly?

Edited August 15, 2015 by Uhkretor

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Arm laser where you even there for that? every single party was an arm laser fest every other side arm was impotent and irrelevant by comparison

And now, it was as well not even exist.  I have never even seen on in a public match.

 

 

A Warframe is only as good as the player that is handling it. The same for any equipment that the player itself will be using. My brother, as an example, started with Volt... and is -still- using Volt and doesn't understand why the community, in general, says that Volt is weak.

If he hasn't use anyone else then that is why he doesn't think Volt is weak. Volt is mid-tier. The guy you quoted is right.  The start of the game is nearly unbearable for new players because of mods, fusions cores, and materials.

[BaronKreight]

Personally I see the current syndicate system as a placeholder. I'm sure there are other things coming related to syndicates.

[Uhkretor]

Syndicates are basically just stepping stones, like everything else in the game. Some people simply think they're interplanetary jumping pads, when they simply aren't. They're just stepping stones, the ones that are even smaller than the average height.

 

Volt isn't weak at all. Besides, the starting phase of the game isn't that hard as people like to think, end up thinking or convinces other people to think the same about it. The same for Mag. No Warframe is the same, so the generic "point and shoot" or "point and use abilities" or a mix of both of them isn't enough. It goes much deeper than that and I confess that a new player isn't going to expect that, which is why we should support new players since we've also been there before where we are now.

[(PSN)DBR87]

I think it is stupid that syndicate mods turn off when you use Exalted blade. Fine, I can live with the lack of AoE blast and the health/energy/sheild/armor bonus. At least let Bright Purity bonus damage still work or Justice Blades Crit bonus still work.

 

I guess it's high efficiency and Life Steal until they see you can still be Invincible Exalted-calibur and nerf that, too.... :/ 

[Rorgal_Sina]

So you're complaining the Syndicates are now useless?

 

MinMaxing Exalted Blade- DE lowered the maximum. Consider it a nerf to EB, not syndicates.

 

Greedy Mag Nerf- The mod wasn't all that healthy for the state of Mag anyways. She was nothing but fuel, treated like fuel, and neglected everywhere else. That's not how you develop game content.

 

Tower Keys- Five T4 keys was a little too much in my opinion, but OPINIONZ!

 

Pilfering Swarm Nerf- So Hydroid isn't a farmer anymore. Good, rework or buff him now plz. I don't want any frame to be a farmer, and nothing BUT a farmer, just like Mag.

 

Synoid Gammacore Nerf- You either nerf the Synoid or buff five other weapons. Which is easier? Which is the outlier?

 

If Syndicates' only purpose was for the above, then don't you think there's a fundamental problem that you should be arguing about instead?

 

Why do you play this game anyways, to farm and get big numbers?

[Uhkretor]

I think it is stupid that syndicate mods turn off when you use Exalted blade. Fine, I can live with the lack of AoE blast and the health/energy/sheild/armor bonus. At least let Bright Purity bonus damage still work or Justice Blades Crit bonus still work.

 

I guess it's high efficiency and Life Steal until they see you can still be Invincible Exalted-calibur and nerf that, too.... :/ 

 

I think its stupid that any non-generic Melee mod actually affects Exalted Blade, excluding Channeling Mods. As far as I know, Melee weapons by themselves do not affect Exalted Blade directly, only the mods that you equip on it will affect Exalted Blade damage. So, restricting choices just to minmax is~... Well, lets just say I can do better with a non-restrictive choice. In fact, anyone can do better with a non-restrictive choice, even without max efficiency.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Syndicates are basically just stepping stones, like everything else in the game. Some people simply think they're interplanetary jumping pads, when they simply aren't. They're just stepping stones, the ones that are even smaller than the average height.

 

Volt isn't weak at all. Besides, the starting phase of the game isn't that hard as people like to think, end up thinking or convinces other people to think the same about it. The same for Mag. No Warframe is the same, so the generic "point and shoot" or "point and use abilities" or a mix of both of them isn't enough. It goes much deeper than that and I confess that a new player isn't going to expect that, which is why we should support new players since we've also been there before where we are now.

I am MR 11 or 12 on PS4 and MR2 on PC. I can tell you without a doubt that starting out at the start of the game with no mods and fusions cores and having weak weapons like the Braton is actually much harder than taking a fully modded character into T4 missions.

 

 

So you're complaining the Syndicates are now useless?

 

MinMaxing Exalted Blade- DE lowered the maximum. Consider it a nerf to EB, not syndicates.

 

Greedy Mag Nerf- The mod wasn't all that healthy for the state of Mag anyways. She was nothing but fuel, treated like fuel, and neglected everywhere else. That's not how you develop game content.

 

Tower Keys- Five T4 keys was a little too much in my opinion, but OPINIONZ!

 

Pilfering Swarm Nerf- So Hydroid isn't a farmer anymore. Good, rework or buff him now plz. I don't want any frame to be a farmer, and nothing BUT a farmer, just like Mag.

 

Synoid Gammacore Nerf- You either nerf the Synoid or buff five other weapons. Which is easier? Which is the outlier?

 

If Syndicates' only purpose was for the above, then don't you think there's a fundamental problem that you should be arguing about instead?

 

Why do you play this game anyways, to farm and get big numbers?

It made Mag one of the most highly requested frames in the game. I have always hated Mag, since I picked her as a starter, but I have all the Mag prime parts and would have built her if not for the nerf. Now, she is back to trash tier in my eyes, and her parts are just gathering dust in my inventory.  I don't see other people requesting her either.

 

It is a nerf to EB and to syndicates. It doesn't need to be one or the other.

 

The keys were fine. I am not a fan of Interception missions.  The only thing it changed is that to get T4 keys I have to grind mission types that I hate to Korean MMO tiers in order to get the keys I want. When before, it was possible to just play mission you liked and generally enjoy the game.

 

Good for you, but some of us like the concept of not having to farm endlessly for mats. Hydroid finally had a purpose, and I didn't immediately groan every time I saw one in my party.

 

Yes, DE has repeatedly shown that they will take the easy way out. This is not a good thing.

 

I play the game to farm/hunt for loot.  It is the same reason I played Diablo 2 or Borderlands. Bigger numbers assist in that, especially with the enemies in endlessly scaling missions.  If DE wants us to stop obsessing about bigger numbers then they need to hard cap enemy levels at around 50 or 60, even if we stay in a survival for 4 hours.

[Uhkretor]

I am MR 11 or 12 on PS4 and MR2 on PC. I can tell you without a doubt that starting out at the start of the game with no mods and fusions cores and having weak weapons like the Braton is actually much harder than taking a fully modded character into T4 missions.

(...)

 

I feel like you're comparing two completely stages of the game to complement your theory. Aren't we reffering solely to the starting phase? If we're going to start comparing different game stages, I suggest you go with an unmodded Mk1 Braton in an unmodded Warframe all the way to Pluto or an equivalent planet lvl without using any ability whatsoever, like I did when I started playing this. Then you'll see how easy the starting phase actually is.

 

The starting phase isn't hard at all if one follows what the game presents and keeps him/herself on the starting planets, doing absolutely the necessary on endless mission just open the extraction (which definitely isn't expected more than that for new players to do within their abilities as a player) instead of plunging themselves into unlocking every planet right at the start and then getting WAY over their heads by trying to complete missions higher than they can handle. -Everything- in this game are to be seen and used as stepping stones, even the starting phase. That's why the starting phase has a higher chance of dropping basic and necessary mods to help them reach further. In case they need to collect a resource that's out of their reach to build the next stepping stone in their development, like a new weapon, it falls on us as "veterans" to help them get that resource as long as they are willing to do it.

 

I know how it was and still is, since I've been solo'ing everything since the moment of my registration up until now AND I keep doing it like that. That way, I got proper experience where I needed to in order to present my arguments when debating about something specific... like the starting phase, for example.

[(PSN)Killmoves37]

There's one thing that's starting to really bother me about DE. They can nerf something that gets popular in about 1-2 weeks easily, but how long did it take to buff shotguns? Something like 6 months right? I swear I remember them touching on shotguns and sniper rifles near the beginning of the year. They waste no time tearing something down, but to modify 6 or so weapons takes half a year. I expect balance to be a ton of give and take, as do most people. However, it feels like there's no end to the taking, and the 'give' is akin to a scrap of food falling from their plate. 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I feel like you're comparing two completely stages of the game to complement your theory. Aren't we reffering solely to the starting phase? If we're going to start comparing different game stages, I suggest you go with an unmodded Mk1 Braton in an unmodded Warframe all the way to Pluto or an equivalent planet lvl without using any ability whatsoever, like I did when I started playing this. Then you'll see how easy the starting phase actually is.

 

The starting phase isn't hard at all if one follows what the game presents and keeps him/herself on the starting planets, doing absolutely the necessary on endless mission just open the extraction (which definitely isn't expected more than that for new players to do within their abilities as a player) instead of plunging themselves into unlocking every planet right at the start and then getting WAY over their heads by trying to complete missions higher than they can handle. -Everything- in this game are to be seen and used as stepping stones, even the starting phase. That's why the starting phase has a higher chance of dropping basic and necessary mods to help them reach further. In case they need to collect a resource that's out of their reach to build the next stepping stone in their development, like a new weapon, it falls on us as "veterans" to help them get that resource as long as they are willing to do it.

 

I know how it was and still is, since I've been solo'ing everything since the moment of my registration up until now AND I keep doing it like that. That way, I got proper experience where I needed to in order to present my arguments when debating about something specific... like the starting phase, for example.

I am talking about up through Saturn and Jupiter. It's nice to say they shouldn't advance that far, but a lot of the things that they NEED come from those two planets at the earliest, unless there is another way to get control modules and such that I don't know about and doesn't involve plat.

 

 

 

There's one thing that's starting to really bother me about DE. They can nerf something that gets popular in about 1-2 weeks easily, but how long did it take to buff shotguns? Something like 6 months right? I swear I remember them touching on shotguns and sniper rifles near the beginning of the year. They waste no time tearing something down, but to modify 6 or so weapons takes half a year. I expect balance to be a ton of give and take, as do most people. However, it feels like there's no end to the taking, and the 'give' is akin to a scrap of food falling from their plate. 

Ditto. If buffs happened as often or as quickly as nerfs, there would be a lot less complaining.

Edited August 15, 2015 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[Uhkretor]

Actually, there is another way to get those... T1 Void, but having such a key so early is a bit rare. Still possible to get a few, but a bit rare right at the start. Again, if they don't have T1 Void keys, its up to us as "veterans" to lend a helping hand if they are willing.

 

Of course, they can join up with Syndicates right at the Start, and work their way to the 2nd level (I guess its that one), which provide the keys they need. However, at that phase of the game, Death Squads justify their name. Besides new players not being equipped to handle a team of 12 Eximus or so at the same time, getting hit by one of them most likely means getting on the horizontal plane in a just a few blows.

 

As willing as I am to help new players, I don't spend my entire day idling in the Liset or Larunda Relay, waiting to be contacted by a new player in need of such help. I have my own needs to attend to, so I run the mission I need to run in order to get what I need for what's needed to build what I want to. Right at this moment, for example, I need nearly 1000 Oxium to start building a new weapon so I'm running missions on Jupiter to get Oxium.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Uhkretor

[Gabry_96]

There's one thing that's starting to really bother me about DE. They can nerf something that gets popular in about 1-2 weeks easily, but how long did it take to buff shotguns? Something like 6 months right? I swear I remember them touching on shotguns and sniper rifles near the beginning of the year. They waste no time tearing something down, but to modify 6 or so weapons takes half a year. I expect balance to be a ton of give and take, as do most people. However, it feels like there's no end to the taking, and the 'give' is akin to a scrap of food falling from their plate. 

I don't think there's anything else to say.

 

Also, people likes to complain about Synoid Gammacor being OP, and then DE nerfs it. I still can't guess why Boltor Prime hasn't been touched.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Gabry_96

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Buffs for fun items don't happen till a serious game shows up that depletes the Warframe player base. When that happens all bells and whistles come out. I can hardly wait for Destiny 2 to launch, because when Destiny launched that week in Warframe was faaaaabulous.

Edited August 15, 2015 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[Pizzarugi]

About that: 

 

DPS for the Synoid Gammacor is still the same, but just with less ammo efficiency. Just slap on an Ammo Mutation mod if you really run out of ammo at a frequent rate while using it, or plan to use it for extended periods of time. 

Why would I go through the hassle of getting max rank in suda, paying a large number of credits, time and valuable components, just to get a weapon that needs 2 mods (pistol scavenger already kills its endgame viability, due to removal of corrosive projection) to remain useable as a now-burst weapon, when the brakk gives double the DPS and eats nowhere near as much ammo?

[RealPandemonium]

Why would I go through the hassle of getting max rank in suda, paying a large number of credits, time and valuable components, just to get a weapon that needs 2 mods (pistol scavenger already kills its endgame viability, due to removal of corrosive projection) to remain useable as a now-burst weapon, when the brakk gives double the DPS and eats nowhere near as much ammo?

He doesn't mention Pistol Scavenger in his post.  Also god forbid you actually have to play the game, or that equipment actually makes you think about how you use it!

[Pizzarugi]

He doesn't mention Pistol Scavenger in his post.  Also god forbid you actually have to play the game, or that equipment actually makes you think about how you use it!

He doesn't, but you do need it if you wanna use it constantly like before. I've played with that thing long enough to know it's now a burst weapon because it eats ammo like no one's business. We don't need more burst weapons, brakk does a fine enough job as a burst secondary.

All DE needed to do was cut down S. Gammacor's base damage, not turn it into an inefficient bullet hose that sometimes explodes and gives energy.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Pizzarugi

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

He doesn't mention Pistol Scavenger in his post.  Also god forbid you actually have to play the game, or that equipment actually makes you think about how you use it!

It doesn't make you think about how to use it. You need to fire it, which now burns through ungodly amounts of ammo. Making it pointless for the mission types where you would most need it, endless t3 and t4 missions. The mods you need to use to counter the ammo consumption to make it last also serve to lower it's DPS in a multitude of ways.

[Bobtm]

Honestly egregiousRac hit the nail on the head with the broad-spectrum thing here so before anything I'll I'll just throw this below.

 

They destroyed the point of syndicates, but not by nerfing things that were obviously broken.

Syndicates were intended to be a background system that progressed while you did other things. It was nice rewards that you worked towards while getting other things. It progressed slowly.

 

Since people like to obsess over the latest content, they whined about it being a grindfest. Since it was a background system, this was a silly way of looking at it. DE gave in to the pressure and buffed gains massively. Exploits (AKA Viver, Draco, etc) forced them to add a cap so players couldn't do the whole thing in a day. They then buffed dalies (which were intended to be the only active part of syndicates), so that people could get more rep by playing missions that can't be exploited. This actually makes it MORE grindy than the original system.

 

It went from an interesting passive system with months of slow content to an active grindfest that is over within a couple weeks.

 

 

 

The issue at hand is the same reoccurring issue: DE does not design new content to be focused on. They design it for the long term. Vay Hek at implementation? Not a grind if you played on Ceres at all. Mutalist Alad? No problem if you just pick up the coordinates when convenient.

They aren't creating grindwalls. Players just approach them as such.

 

Anyways onto other things, like this incredibly false theory that so many folks who are blatantly anti-nerf rely on to push their agenda.

 

Every time something nice comes out of them it is nerfed into the ground.

 

Seriously, stop equating "popular" with "needs nerfed."
 

 

That's not how it works, that's never how it's worked.  You're making a glaring mistake by following this baseless assumption as to why these design changes happen.  It isn't that things becoming popular makes them become nerfed, it's that players love to abuse broken things!  This in turn increases the attention drawn towards the broken outlier and makes it easier to get data on said outlier(s) so that they can be modified to better fit into the game.  Whether a broken item is popular or not it will likely be changed, but by becoming popular it's easier to see that it is broken.

 

 

1. Tower keys - nerfed

 

2. Nice little arm laser - nerfed

 

3. Greedy pull finally comes along and give Mag some much needed team utility - nerfed

 

4. Hydroid has a nice mod that helps farming - nerfed

 

5. Melee weapon mods grant Excal's Ult some nice effects and get people to use underpowered and under represented weapons - nerfed

 

1.  Because having effectively infinite Tower Keys is totally intended gameplay.  Look, at its core this is a game where you will not always have what you need, to do what you want.  This is simply how it has to be in a game of this type, it's the nature of the beast as it were.  It isn't like Tower keys are in genuinely short supply on the whole.  Having to foray into other missions to obtain stuff isn't the end of the world, and this ties directly into what egregiousRac pointed out.

 

2.  Yup, because there's nothing wrong with a single weapon having perfect ammo economy, pinpoint perfect accuracy, incredibly DPS that blows everything else away, a strong Syndicate effect, and no apparent downsides.  The simple breaks here are that the Synoid Gammacor was (after its buff) a very, very, very broken weapon.  It had no right to exist in the form it was in, and players by and large who were against nerfs all said the same thing pre-nerf "Don't lower it's DPS, we need it."  Rather than going the easy route and lowering its DPS DE decided to leave its DPS intact but took a hammer to its sustainability.

 

On a slight sidenote there could've been other changes to the weapon, but it had to be nerfed, and there is no way to argue that fact.

 

3.  If by team utility you mean "Let's all stand still forever." ... no.  Gpull was clearly and obviously broken from the start and honestly should've never even been introduced into the game at all.

 

4.  Except that it wasn't nerfed, it was reworked.  It lost in terms of one trait but gained in another.

 

5.  The issue here is that DE's intent is to not have there be obvious "winning choices" when it comes down to gear setups.  These mods effecting Exalted Blade created a divide where some items were always better every time without any regard to other items having use.  The same syndicate mods still work on the weapons normally, if they aren't good enough to warrant use then that's a problem with the mods in and of themselves.  If they only were "good because of use with EB" then it's not okay to have left them as is.

 

Exalted Blade is a seperate entity that is not meant to be like what you want.  It actually follows the same trend as the now deceased coptering did when you take a step back.  DE didn't like some weapons being clear outliers when looking at things, rather hoping to broaden the level of subjectivity throughout player choices.  Effectively taking away the "correct answer" creates this broad scope.

_____________________________

 

Just to loop back around to the initial point here.  Syndicates aren't a reward pinata, or rather that's not what they were from the original point of intent.  They were a stepping stone of sorts to both add longterm gameplay goals while also allowing DE to introduce more interesting characters, character interactions, and lore into Warframe.  However those extra parts of Syndicate implementation have been shoved to the wayside to a degree, in favor of pure unadulterated grind.

 

Or in other words, Syndicates aren't all about the goals and nothing else.  Players just see goals and then tunnel vision their way forward.

[Uhkretor]

(...)

Just to loop back around to the initial point here.  Syndicates aren't a reward pinata, or rather that's not what they were from the original point of intent.  They were a stepping stone of sorts to both add longterm gameplay goals while also allowing DE to introduce more interesting characters, character interactions, and lore into Warframe.  However those extra parts of Syndicate implementation have been shoved to the wayside to a degree, in favor of pure unadulterated grind.

 

Or in other words, Syndicates aren't all about the goals and nothing else.  Players just see goals and then tunnel vision their way forward.

 

... ^ this ^...

 

EDIT: OMG ^ ^ THIS ^ ^

 

2nd Edit: I think I pressed "Report" by mistake instead of "Edit"... Anyway, Bobtm touched a crucial point there. "Stepping stone of sorts"...

Edited August 15, 2015 by Uhkretor

[Pride]

And now, it was as well not even exist.  I have never even seen on in a public match.

 

 

If he hasn't use anyone else then that is why he doesn't think Volt is weak. Volt is mid-tier. The guy you quoted is right.  The start of the game is nearly unbearable for new players because of mods, fusions cores, and materials.

do more public matches i see it a few times a day just as much as any other weapon with nearly 50 viable offhands now we dont really have any single one that controls the field and thats how it should be.

 

Why would I go through the hassle of getting max rank in suda, paying a large number of credits, time and valuable components, just to get a weapon that needs 2 mods (pistol scavenger already kills its endgame viability, due to removal of corrosive projection) to remain useable as a now-burst weapon, when the brakk gives double the DPS and eats nowhere near as much ammo?

have you ever used the brakk? its on paper dps only shows thru if you find a lv 300 enemy and politely ask them to deep throat your brakk instead of shooting your face. frankly if your more than 5m away brakks dps is less than a 4th of its listed value due to its HUGE spread and near instant fall off damage. I own a 5 forma brakk and let me tell you I havent used it since it got its nerf because no frame does well 3m away from the lv 90+ enemies the brakk is intended to kill.