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The Gorgon ruins this game.


Solvite
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I agree with the MG42 reference, that would be cool. But adding Armor Pen to a weapon does not qualify it as an anti-infantry weapon. It just makes to better against Grineer.

Which is exactly what I had in mind. Pardon me for not experessing my thoughts properly.

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You could suggest an more indepth solution.

And honestly, you missed the mark on the actual problem in your "fix".

But I like what I think you're trying to do.

Gorgon shouldn't be classed as an Rifle regardless, it should have started a new weapon class as a "machine gun" or "minigun" whatever you will, and have different mods available to it stat wise and limit the mod slots to 3 rather than allowing it to have 5 available.

There is no incentive to use a Braton over a Gorgon at the moment, none at all as the base stats are basically the same and then their upgrades are EXACTLY the same except higher for gorgon because of the base stats.

Edited by Danichi
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I'd go in this direction, with a more chugga chugga approach to the fire rate + instead of spread to get a medium to high recoil on the weapon to make up for the rate of fire. On top of this, I'd add a bit extra dmg and maybe some armor pen, but only a tiny bit to keep the thing within check and with that give the gun some personality, in the sense that it is an anti-infantry/anti-personal gun.

In fact, what I'm going for here is best defined by the Nazi Germany MG42 MG.

I think you don't know what the MG42 was. With a rate of fire of 1200 rounds per minute(20 per second) it was a bullet hose, only surpassed by miniguns for the most part.

Definitely no chugga chugga, those would be the LMGs with a rate of fire of 500-600rpm.

Also, what weapon in the game isn't an anti-personal weapon?

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Even if the Gorgon stays the way it does, I'd like to see a MK2-Braton or something, so that there can be an actually viable rifle in the game that doesnt spread like the Gorgon.

This I would say is more reasonable. ATM Gorgon I believe is the only rifle class weapon in game that isn't available at rank 1. There really isnt much in the market of weapons that isn't available at rank 1 and at rank 2 you've got access to everything but the Hek till rank 5 now. So there's room for alot of new weapons to be added for each class.

However I think the Gorgon should stay classified as a rifle though it performs like an LMG. The reason being that firing animations of the guns in this game does not involve ejection of shell casings. So it would lead me to believe the magazines contain only the bullet itself and the propulsion force comes from an aspect of the gun itself. Hence every rifle uses the same ammo yet the baseline damage and accuracy varies by rifle. Thus in the case of the Gorgon it fires the exact same bullet as every other rifle. However the advanced firing system in it allows those bullets to travel with more force resulting in more damage at a higher rate of fire at the expense of stabilization costing it accuracy and causing spread even when not being fired full spin. To offset the fact you're going to miss more often they expanded the magazine for it to hold more rounds.

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Gorgon is especially OP when playing in a group. When playing solo, you actually have to manage your ammo and make it last to the end of a mission. In a group, you just blow it all and let the other people take over when you run out.

The problem with the Gorgon being clearly superior to anything else in the rifle family, is that eventually the game will be balanced around groups of Gorgon users, making all other weapons not only inferior, but unviable. There are already threads of people complaining that the game is too easy and others that feel the use of tactics or strategy to overcome AI is somehow cheating.

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The weapons currently in the game aren't balanced in any way. Aklatos are just as imbalanced on the sidearm tree and Furax are miles above and beyond anything else in melee, although the two new weapons can give it some run for its money with multiple hits. In terms of pure efficiency, I doubt anything in the game can match a Gorgon/Aklato/Furax setup.

Things might change a bit once we get more varied maps and bosses but the fact is that currently boss fights are a DPS check, so anything that doesn't fire lots of bullets might as well be useless. This is why Gorgon is part of everyone's setup and why the HEK is secondary. HEK might not have a huge damage over time but it can burst so hard that even bosses can't handle it. Same deal with Furax: Until highly levelled and modded, it can't one-hit regular infested uncharged, but it ignores armor, has the fastest charge in game (nearly instant with good charge rate mods) and does ridiculous damage, so it can deal with anything in the game in a single charged hit.

What I'm saying is that weapons haven't been balanced yet and you shouldn't worry too much about it. We're not playing Battlefield, so you're not suddenly unable to compete because someone else uses a Gorgon. The sniper example is also a very bad one, since there's only a single rifle compared to everything else. While the Gorgon might be the worst offender at present, you could have made the exact same argument about a Braton.

Edited by Zinn
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I dont see an issue.. more guns will come out in due time. then you all will get mad about them being op

&& how they should be gimped or on the level as a rank 1 gun

Some of u say all this ranting to keep the game fair.. fair from what? you haveing to use your player "skill" to have a higher score

then a player with a bigger gun?

another guy say's its an issue eveyone is useing these guns...really? its a "limited content"beta when you see people use the same gun its unavoidable eveyone is gonna want to try stuff out and with the market so small right now your bound to see the same stuff gamefrom to game get real.

another dude says well maybe they should change how it works so it can be like tf2 and have a wind up.. another oh oh it should have a heavy kick back!! or oh oh it should only burst fire gimp gimp nerf nerf so make it wakk?

what is wrong with a gun that works and kills a target fast?

if you use a shotty at close range on this game insta kill!!

head shots insta kill!!

your telling me you want the flow of the game to be so slow that you useing a light support MG in a scifi setting should have heavy kick back and shallow clip and inaccurate is all hell? what fun is that.. none!!

btw i dont use it bc i dont feel safe with it cant kill stuff as fast as a shotty up close and most games anyone with the gun gets out done with a strun in my team its not that op people are just over reee actiing ...

Edited by Dr3dd
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Yo dawg, you left out the part where the gorgon does it 3x-4x faster than any other gun except the HEK. And the HEK does at least require exposing oneself to somewhat more risk, forgoing cover and a more twitch+rush style.

Seriously? The Hek is about as accurate than the Gorgon, mag-dumps much faster (it has higher burst and similar sustained DPS under most circumstances), and is far more ammunition efficient. Just because it's a shotgun doesn't mean it's inaccurate.

And 3x-4x faster? A Gorgon does 25 dmg per shot, at 16.67 rate, for 417 dps at max speed. It takes about 2 seconds to spin up to that rate and has about half that dps while spinning up on average, so in an engagement where you need less than 3 seconds of Gorgon fire to finish (i.e. you need to deal less than 800 damage x whatever mods/upgrades you have) you're actually getting more like 300 dps.

The basic Braton does 15 dmg per shot at 15 rate, for 225 dps. In most combat situations the Gorgon barely manages 50% more DPS than a Braton. In combat situations where enemies are extremely spaced out (i.e. most non-boss, non-Infested fights in larger rooms), unless you're wasting a gigantic pile of bullets against scenery-and at the Gorgon's fire rate this is nontrivial, the Gorgon's DPS can actually be lower than the Braton's. Thing is, you don't remember those situations where the Gorgon is worse than a Braton, you just remember the Gorgon vaporizing bosses because that's what it's really good at, bosses are pretty huge beefwalls, and yes, this makes the Gorgon seem somewhat better than it actually is. It may still be the best weapon in the game overall, but it's no longer head and shoulders the best weapon.

Now, the issue is that the Braton also has a fairly solid DPS, whereas the Burstron should have really awesome DPS (500 in theory!) but seems to have less than a third that because of the excessive burst delay (which needs to be cut down by some degree), the Latron suffers from the same issue with breaking your mouse button + its low DPS (increase its damage to 45/shot), and so on.

The only non-Hek primary weapons which approach the Braton's DPS or exceed it are the Strun (204) and the Boar (300, but it eats through ammo like a fat guy eating through cake).

Are you seriously pretending that when it comes down to it some guns aren't outrageously more effective than others?

No, I'm saying that the OP's whinging, that "GORGONS TAKE NO SKILL" is entirely misplaced, because they use identical skills.

I can use the hell out of a lex btw this isn't a comparison based on skill. From the moment I acquired the weapon I could line up headshots a bit faster than the lex base firing rate. OR I can whip at the gorgon and use my same ability to aim well to kill everything faster and unless the snipetron scales up better than every other gun, the campirson holds true for EVERY OTHER (agian, excluding hek) primary I have touched.

Shock horror a LMG is really good at engaging multiple tightly packed targets. I mean, this is a map problem, a enemy pacing problem, a level design problem, not "We should nerf the LMG to be worse at something it should be the absolute best at" problem.

And yes you are right about boss mechanics needing some tweaks.

What you aren't right about is weapon balance not needing tweaks. And the gorgon doesn't necessarily need a nerf, the other weapons just need to feel more like options and less like second rate.

I would totally be all for a Burstron and Latron which don't suck and Akfurises which don't suck and so on. But I don't really think the Gorgon has much of a problem in terms of DPS. Making impossible to use accurately without ADS would probably be a decent nerf (it is a LMG after all) but it should be capable of putting somewhat accurate, sustained high-damage fire on targets if you can set up in a position which isn't too vulnerable.

Give enemies more rockets and explosives to make that risky, and there you go. Balance.

Edited by MJ12
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I think you don't know what the MG42 was. With a rate of fire of 1200 rounds per minute(20 per second) it was a bullet hose, only surpassed by miniguns for the most part.

Definitely no chugga chugga, those would be the LMGs with a rate of fire of 500-600rpm.

Also, what weapon in the game isn't an anti-personal weapon?

I'm well aware of MG42's rate of fire, and while far from chugga chugga, it is what it is going to turn into if you try to fire it unstationed (otherwise I wish good luck to anyone who'd be trying to hit his target with that amount of recoil. Either way, as I said in the post above, my thoughts were not quire precisely laid out. The paragraph and the MG42 idea, while going towards the same context, should have been mutually exclusive.

As for what anti-personal weapon should be, as used in this context, it is a weapong designed to maw dawn a living, breathing human(ish) enemy AKA the Grineer and maybe the Corpus crewmen, though I'm not quire sure those are humans.

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I dont see an issue.. more guns will come out in due time. then you all will get mad about them being op

&& how they should be gimped or on the level as a rank 1 gun

Some of u say all this ranting to keep the game fair.. fair from what? you haveing to use your player "skill" to have a higher score

then a player with a bigger gun?

another guy say's its an issue eveyone is useing these guns...really? its a "limited content"beta when you see people use the same gun its unavoidable eveyone is gonna want to try stuff out and with the market so small right now your bound to see the same stuff gamefrom to game get real.

another dude says well maybe they should change how it works so it can be like tf2 and have a wind up.. another oh oh it should have a heavy kick back!! or oh oh it should only burst fire gimp gimp nerf nerf so make it wakk?

what is wrong with a gun that works and kills a target fast?

if you use a shotty at close range on this game insta kill!!

head shots insta kill!!

your telling me you want the flow of the game to be so slow that you useing a light support MG in a scifi setting should have heavy kick back and shallow clip and inaccurate is all hell? what fun is that.. none!!

btw i dont use it bc i dont feel safe with it cant kill stuff as fast as a shotty up close and most games anyone with the gun gets out done with a strun in my team its not that op people are just over reee actiing ...

The gorgon is more effective at close range than any of the shotguns but the HEK.

The game shouldnt be built around leveling weapons up to 30 if they are just going to keep giving you stronger weapons as you RANK up.

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Seriously? The Hek is about as accurate than the Gorgon, mag-dumps much faster (it has higher burst and similar sustained DPS under most circumstances), and is far more ammunition efficient. Just because it's a shotgun doesn't mean it's inaccurate.

And 3x-4x faster? A Gorgon does 25 dmg per shot, at 16.67 rate, for 417 dps at max speed. It takes about 2 seconds to spin up to that rate and has about half that dps while spinning up on average, so in an engagement where you need less than 3 seconds of Gorgon fire to finish (i.e. you need to deal less than 800 damage x whatever mods/upgrades you have) you're actually getting more like 300 dps.

The basic Braton does 15 dmg per shot at 15 rate, for 225 dps. In most combat situations the Gorgon barely manages 50% more DPS than a Braton. In combat situations where enemies are extremely spaced out (i.e. most non-boss, non-Infested fights in larger rooms), unless you're wasting a gigantic pile of bullets against scenery-and at the Gorgon's fire rate this is nontrivial, the Gorgon's DPS is actually lower than the Braton's.

Now, the issue is that the Braton also has a fairly solid DPS, whereas the Burstron should have really awesome DPS (500 in theory!) but seems to have less than a third that because of the excessive burst delay (which needs to be cut down), the Latron suffers from the same issue, and so on.

The only non-Hek primary weapons which approach the Braton's DPS or exceed it are the Strun (204) and the Boar (300, but it eats through ammo like a fat guy eating through cake).

No, I'm saying that the OP's whinging, that "GORGONS TAKE NO SKILL" is entirely misplaced, because they use identical skills.

Shock horror a LMG is really good at engaging multiple tightly packed targets. I mean, this is a map problem, a enemy pacing problem, a level design problem, not "We should nerf the LMG to be worse at something it should be the absolute best at" problem.

I would totally be all for a Burstron and Latron which don't suck and Akfurises which don't suck and so on. But I don't really think the Gorgon has much of a problem in terms of DPS. Making impossible to use accurately without ADS would probably be a decent nerf (it is a LMG after all) but it should be capable of putting somewhat accurate, sustained high-damage fire on targets if you can set up in a position which isn't too vulnerable.

Give enemies more rockets and explosives to make that risky, and there you go. Balance.

DPS should have no place in this game as a statistic.

People use DPS as a measurement in WoW because the enemies stand there and let you hit them. Please PLEASE PLEAAASE developers dont start balancing around DPS and TTK in a freaking third person shooter.

Edited by Solvite
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The gorgon is more effective at close range than any of the shotguns but the HEK.

The game shouldnt be built around leveling weapons up to 30 if they are just going to keep giving you stronger weapons as you RANK up.

Why? Disgaea made a game all about leveling characters up and it also gave you stronger character types as you "ranked up". This creates an interesting dynamic.

Well, it would if there were high-level equivalents of every other weapon. "Do I keep using this gun until I dead-end or do I get a better weapon and suffer from a loss of killing power for a few hours but plateau higher?"

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DPS should have no place in this game as a statistic.

People use DPS as a measurement in WoW because the enemies stand there and let you hit them. Please PLEASE PLEAAASE developers dont start balancing around DPS and TTK in a freaking third person shooter.

Okay, then close your thread. You're whining that the Gorgon's DPS is too high. That is all your OP and the entirety of this thread is. "The Gorgon's DPS is too high nerf it!"

Also, DPS should have no place in this game as a statistic? Really now. You are doing damage to targets. Those targets are doing damage to you. Naturally DPS is important in the sense that it shows you how fast you can theoretically eliminate targets. This is very important in any game involving doing damage to enemies that uses a hitpoint system instead of, I don't know, a critical hit system.

Asking devs to not balance around DPS and TTK is asking them to not balance around an important core mechanic.

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The only other thing I see causing people to say the Gorgon is horribly OP is they probably encounter players that have equipped multiple +% multishot mods on it which when you have multiple of these offering 50% or higher multishot per mod stacking multiplicivly it causes a huge dps explosion. Thats on the mods and how stacking works though. Not the gun itself.

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DPS should have no place in this game as a statistic.

People use DPS as a measurement in WoW because the enemies stand there and let you hit them. Please PLEASE PLEAAASE developers dont start balancing around DPS and TTK in a freaking third person shooter.

The moment statistic were introduced to this game at their current state and form, statistics like DPS, TTK, stat caps and/or deminishing returns is what all is gonna be balanced around. Every game that involves calculated damage, rate of fire and hitpoints system uses DPS as a measurment regardless of whether it is aware of it or not. I just wish Warframe would expand on its inventory and statistic screen so we can do this precisely as in-depth as possible (like in Blacklight: Retribution for example)

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Okay, then close your thread. You're whining that the Gorgon's DPS is too high. That is all your OP and the entirety of this thread is. "The Gorgon's DPS is too high nerf it!"

Also, DPS should have no place in this game as a statistic? Really now. You are doing damage to targets. Those targets are doing damage to you. Naturally DPS is important in the sense that it shows you how fast you can theoretically eliminate targets. This is very important in any game involving doing damage to enemies that uses a hitpoint system instead of, I don't know, a critical hit system.

Asking devs to not balance around DPS and TTK is asking them to not balance around an important core mechanic.

Pretty sure I was complaining about the Gorgon's utility. Hopefully in the future the boss AI will improve and they wont stand in your bullet spray letting you hit them.

When the enemies can hide behind cover, Damage Per Second because a very vague statistic.

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IMO any game that you actively deal damage to things and is real time and not turn based causes DPS to be a very vital statistic. Some of the humanoid bosses actually do run around and utilize escapes or cover unless players find a way to lock the AI into attacking or find ways to stunlock them. Examples being the boss on Everest often looks for covering terrain when he starts getting hit alot. One of the corpus bosses pops invisibility then often finds a location he can shoot you from partial cover. Hyena will deploy a shield like volt frame's 3rd skill. etc.. So some of the cover mechanics already exist for the AI. it just needs to evolve more to use it more efficiently.

Most cases unless the Gorgon is high rank with good mods like stacked multishot against bosses the best thing it offers is keeping the shield permanently stripped so high single shot damage weapons and skills can put their burst straight to the bosse's health and not have it's shield soak any of it.

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DPS should have no place in this game as a statistic.

People use DPS as a measurement in WoW because the enemies stand there and let you hit them. Please PLEASE PLEAAASE developers dont start balancing around DPS and TTK in a freaking third person shooter.

It's a third person shooter dungeon crawler you twat. There's critical hits. I don't think you understand what kind of game this is.

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When the enemies can hide behind cover, Damage Per Second because a very vague statistic.

Not really, you can always calculate it based on your statistics. However, since the boss fights do not exist in vacuum nor every player's skill level will allow for the exactly same dps output, you can always avg it out from, lets say, the top 100 parses on a specific boss fight. While not THE exact avg, it is as close to accuracy as you can get. The DPS can always be measured.

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Worrying about DPS is a game like this is like worrying about K/D ratio in CoD. There are many other variables that people arent considering that make a person, team, or gun more effective then the other in certain situations. If this was a traditional rpg like WoW where its just stand there, "i hit you you hit me", then you could care about DPS.

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Pretty sure I was complaining about the Gorgon's utility. Hopefully in the future the boss AI will improve and they wont stand in your bullet spray letting you hit them.

Its "utility" comes from its DPS. The fact that it has very high sustained DPS and deals it with minimal overkill is what makes it so good.

When the enemies can hide behind cover, Damage Per Second because a very vague statistic.

Vague but not meaningless. It just means your balance is 'fuzzier' and has more dimensions to it. Weapons which are easier to aim and/or ignore cover will have higher average DPS even if their peak DPS is low (which is why in games with non-hitscan weapons and hitscan weapons the latter almost always have much lower damage per second). Weapons with high instantaneous damage allow you to reduce incoming damage more effectively but also create the threat of wasting damage on overkill.

This is still balancing around DPS, it's just a more complex equation.

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