The Gorgon ruins this game.

[Mystokai]

There are weapons that need ''proper care''

Like Lex, you wont put out anything from this weapon at lower rank till you dedicate yourself to it

[WildJuice]

But why all this guys? Gorgon and HEK are meant to be better guns. They have higher level requirements. There is not much choice because the content is not very developped yet. You wouldn't be so mad if you had other guns which were on the same level.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Burst damage is relevant for mob enemies, DPS is useful for bosses.

[Zakalwe]

Well, use it as a challenge. I like to take my Snipetron and Braton and Melee only builds outgun all the Hek and Gorgon players I run into. Very satisfying to come out all yellow at the end with a room full of Gorgon players!

They don't ruin the game for me, and I see plenty of other users not relying on them constantly too.

[AreWeHuman]

I disagree. I don't feel like leveling up your character should turn you into a super hero.

Wut. How did you derive that i wanted us to be overpowered from what I said at all? Did you quote the wrong person buddy?

You can run and gun with the Snipetron.

You actually can't hit the broad sign of a barn without adsing on the snipetron, which is actually quite the hinderance, considering how needlessly large the zoom is.

[Zakalwe]

You actually can't hit the broad sign of a barn without adsing on the snipetron, which is actually quite the hinderance, considering how needlessly large the zoom is.

The zoom is perfectly fine. I main Snipetron and I've never found a problem hitting closer targets with zoom.

And anyway, when they're really too close you have a secondary weapon AND a melee. The gun is supposed to be a long range and weaker at close, you use your other weapons to balance that fact.

[RextintorZ]

I also agree on the Gorgon. It needs balance. After this so called "balance" from the past few days, the Gorgon actually looks more powerful than before, especially because of the new accuracy. I have noticed it can shoot more precisely now than before, and that doesn't make up for the damage loss because more shots hitting the target = more damage.

I would suggest lowering the max ammo capacity by half or at least 1/4, and lowering fire rate by 10%, maybe more. At least that way, the weapon could go back to that "boss weapon" style it had before.

-----

Edited January 19, 2013 by RextintorZ

[herflik]

IMO grogon dmg need to drop to 15-18 since its rapid fire, high capacity gun and shouldnt get near the base dmg of slower fire rate guns.

To that nerf the hell out of multhit, its just so OP that everybody who drop it, runs with it.

[MJ12]

IMO grogon dmg need to drop to 15-18 since its rapid fire, high capacity gun and shouldnt get near the base dmg of slower fire rate guns.

To that nerf the hell out of multhit, its just so OP that everybody who drop it, runs with it.

If the Gorgon is doing 15-18 damage why would you use it over a Braton, which is more accurate, has lower recoil, has a comparable fire rate, is more easily available, and doesn't need forever to spinup? Again, people keep forgetting that the Braton is more accurate and doesn't have a spinup time, which means unless you want to spray bullets all over the place while tracking, you lose a lot of DPS unless enemies line up in a neat Napoleonic formation for you to mow down. At which point yes, the Gorgon is the most powerful weapon in the game.

It should be. You just created a scenario catering to all the Gorgon's strengths. Good job. Look, the problem isn't with the Gorgon per se. Level design makes it so that situations where the Gorgon is really strong come up a lot compared to situations where other guns are really good. We need some more wide-open spaces, places with plenty of cover for enemies to hide behind, guys who will punish you if you're moving slowly while ADSed...

And not only will that make the game far more interesting and varied than just going "GORGON IS OP NERF GORGON" it also serves as an indirect nerf. And it means if you're good at setting up the situation to be advantageous for you (like say, you're a Loki, and you switch teleport + decoy to a location where you've flanked the enemy...) and your Gorgon, it owns face. Just like any other support weapon should in a situation built for it.

But if you aren't you might want to use a standard rifle like a Braton or Burstron.

[AreWeHuman]

*looks at gun*

Now now, Burston, he wasn't talking about you... Don't cry.

May as well have been. I'd put up the burston for the worst weapon in the game. Its like semi-decent vs the infected early, total garbage later, and never at any point an improvement on the braton. It is one of those too plentiful choices where if you make it, you're actually just choosing to be worse.

Like Lex, you wont put out anything from this weapon at lower rank till you dedicate yourself to it

And then late game it still falls miles behind. Enjoy your threeshot+ headshots that are worth going for on grineer only. Gun does not even carry bustfire mods well. Not to say the LEX doesn't have a place. But you're making it sound like it will really pan out for you later if you "dedicate" yourself to it.

It won't.

The zoom is perfectly fine. I main Snipetron and I've never found a problem hitting closer targets with zoom.

Where did you read that I had a problem? I said it is needlessly large. Which it is. It zooms in further than ever currently needed. I can still hit things right next to me. I, and by "I" here, I mean everyone who wants to hit something, must zoom in first. Which makes it not super great for going really run and gun, like what the person whom I was quoting was talking about. So thanks for the information about the gun I already know and also use which you should be able to infer due to the fact that i know that accuracy of the snipetron is balls without ADSing. I don't think anyone who doesn't use it knows that. Infact, I'm pretty sure i'm the first person on the forum to say anything about it.

In case i didn't make the difference clear enough; I'm going to clarify why what you're saying in no way makes sense to what I said. Zooms needlessly far =/= I have trouble hitting things that are close. There is just no reason for the weapon to zoom in as far as it does. I could hit what are essentially the furthest possible headshots with 3/4 or 1/2 the zoom pretty easily. Considering I basically used to do exactly that with a Lex.

-Insert the needlessly long part of your post where you disagree with me on unimportant details for an excessive word count-

I would totally be all for a Burstron and Latron which don't suck and Akfurises which don't suck and so on. But I don't really think the Gorgon has much of a problem in terms of DPS. Making impossible to use accurately without ADS would probably be a decent nerf (it is a LMG after all) but it should be capable of putting somewhat accurate, sustained high-damage fire on targets if you can set up in a position which isn't too vulnerable.

Give enemies more rockets and explosives to make that risky, and there you go. Balance.

Really guy, Like 4 paragraphs of condescending disagreement only to finally come to the point of actually just agreeing with what I actually said?

What you aren't right about is weapon balance not needing tweaks. And the gorgon doesn't necessarily need a nerf, the other weapons just need to feel more like options and less like second rate.

Fo' reals you argue that it isn't overpowered and admit that comapred to it, other weapons suck. Somethign being overpowered doesn't mean it needs to he hard-nerfed. Other things may need buffs. Weapon choices should feel like choices. And "fairly accurate automaticrifle vs Better fairly accurate automatic rifle" and "Strong as balls bursty shotgun vs. decent shotgun" aren't real choices.

The gorgon is OP because at some point in the game if you don't use it, you just aren't being effective. AGIAN TO MAKE IT CAPS LOCK CLEAR, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THE GORGON MUST BE NERFED.

I do feel like the gorgon needs some drawbacks though. It could even get stronger in some ways if it had drawbacks. (this thread has had some pretty decent gorgon adjustment suggestions that could render the gun equally strong tbh). Its just too all-around good right now and that is a big part of what kills end-game weapon diversity.

Sure is knee-jerk in this thread.

Edited January 19, 2013 by AreWeHuman

[Namacyst]

Gorgon is a Heavy Machine Gun. Heavy Machine Guns are meant as a suppressing fast firing weapon with low accuracy and high ammunition usage. You take a position and remain stationary firing down a corridoor or large room to kill everything not in cover to give your teammates a window to advance further to a position where enemys in cover can be taken out and remaining save themselfes due to high bullet spread. The Gorgon does exactly that. The problem is not the Gun or people holding down button until the gun is empty..the problem is for example a Rhino with invulnerability making it possible to stick the Gun into a Boss' mouth and shredding it to bits because when the gun does not miss due to close range it becomes very powerfull.. even moving while firing is possible.

I persoanlly would like it more if the Gorgon when firing would cut the movespeed to a level where you are really really slow. That way it would become the "positioning-gun" it should be adding some skillrequirements to use it properly. Advance to position.. start firing... and remain... stop firing... advance further. that's what a Heavy MAchine Gun is all about.

[Zakalwe]

Where did you read that I had a problem? I said it is needlessly large. Which it is. It zooms in further than ever currently needed. I can still hit things right next to me. I, and by "I" here, I mean everyone who wants to hit something, must zoom in first. Which makes it not super great for going really run and gun, like what the person whom I was quoting was talking about. So thanks for the information about the gun I already know and also use which you should be able to infer due to the fact that i know that accuracy of the snipetron is balls without ADSing. I don't think anyone who doesn't use it knows that. Infact I'm pretty sure i'm the first person on the forum to say anything about it.

I don't think it's needleslly large at all. It zooms at just the right amount. It's a long range weapon, so it zooms long range. And the majoirty of rooms it works just fine in. I run and gun with it, I even leap and headshot with zoom using Super Jump, and dives... I don't slow down when I take my snipetron.

I've never had a problem using it at this zoom, so I figured you must do seeing as you consider zoom too much. Apoloiges for the assumption.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Teleo]

The gorgon is mediocre and worse than many other weapons before getting high end mods. The accuracy means you can't consistently get headshot bonuses beyond point blank range, and the slower startup means unless you are targetting a boss or mowing down a huge amount of targets all bunched together, other weapons are better for ammo conservation while putting out approximately the same kill rate.

The gorgon scales extremely well with mods due to its nature of having a slower buildup but the highest dps in game once full spun in a mid-close range target, at the cost of chewing through ammo horrendously.

I wouldn't mind cutting its damage by 25%ish and increasing RoF by 25-30%ish to retain the same amount of overall dps on a larger target, but crippling its effectiveness in short nonspun bursts on smaller targets and making it extremely ammo inefficient.

[AreWeHuman]

I don't slow down when I take my snipetron.

Cool delusions bro.

[Zakalwe]

Cool delusions bro.

Feel free to jump in a game with me any time, I can assure you I'm just as quick with it as any other gun and I'm happy to prove it!

[Lichthammer]

first time i saw that thing i was like " ooooohhh nice gun... ". then i tried it on 1 mission and i was like " WTF is this gun?" un-equiped the thing and sold it back to the market...

using this weapon is no fun at all...

for me this weapon sucks a lot... and i dont need to explain anything because it just suck the way it is...

[Ronteque]

I wasted freaking 50,000 credits on this useless Gorgon. If I could refund I would trade it in for a Snipetron now. I could hardly clear low level infestation with this garbage Gorgon. WTF is everyone delusional talking about Gorgon needing nerf?! The Gorgon is absolute garbage. My M1 Braton does better than this garbage weapon. Now I am stuck with this weapon that I feel like quitting the game.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Ronteque

[ZephyrFlow]

I wasted freaking 50,000 credits on this useless Gorgon. If I could refund I would trade it in for a Snipetron now. I could hardly clear low level infestation with this garbage Gorgon. WTF is everyone delusional talking about Gorgon needing nerf?! The Gorgon is absolute garbage. My M1 Braton does better than this garbage weapon. Now I am stuck with this weapon that I feel like quitting the game.

After using the gorgon for quite some time, i have to agree with you, Braton/MK1 Braton does a better job, however, the current setup of bosses makes gorgon a good choice because bosses don't move that much :D

Edited January 19, 2013 by ZephyrFlow

[AreWeHuman]

Feel free to jump in a game with me any time, I can assure you I'm just as quick with it as any other gun and I'm happy to prove it!

You might be as fast as you are with any other gun, you just aren't as fast as you could be. When i'm running and gunning in this game, I avoid ADSing. It slows you down always. the way running and gunning works well in this game is if you are as mobile and small as possible to reduce incoming damage. The AI blows at shooting anything not moving directly toward it and most of the dangerous area attacks have large wind up times. The snipetron has the worst ADS of all as it slows you down the most.

Its not a bad gun by any means. I personally like it and like using it.

Pretending it is somehow good or for running and gunning or even somehow

as quick

is still absurd. You simply can't deal the same amount of damage to the same enemies in the same course of the level as quickly. That is how you excell at running and gunning. I think we have different working definitions of running and gunning. For me, it is: running around, throwing lots of damage at all enemies nearby, not using cover, and in this case; mostly using ADS for the dive after you slide jump. Running and gunning is NOT taking considerable time to reload every 6-8 AIMED shots that you took. usually from cover at enemies who may have been or probably were mostly behind cover.

Now here's the deal; You can have your thing that you feel run and gun means and I can have mine. It can be an opinion, I am totally cool with that. But, before we just got "yeah whatever" and stop derailing this thread, I want to explain why I think my idea of running and gunning makes more sense than yours from a logical perspective. And if you want to continue the discussion from there via pm or new or even existing, more relevant, thread.

The strength of the snipetron is its high damage per hit and accuracy (another less relevant strength is that you get basically all the ammo for it). As a result of these shooting things in their weakspots with the weapon is more effective than it is with any other weapon. And it works pretty well. You do have to spend a lot of time reloading and ADSing though. Actually, as it turns out: every time you want to shoot something, you have to ADS, or you will probably miss. The thing is, in warframe when you ADS, you cannot run. The reason I think you can't run and gun with the snipetron is because it is literally impossible. In order to "gun" you must ADS. When you ADS, you can't run. You don't get to choose here. You move more slowly. You can't even fire directly out of sprint either which you can do with any other gun. And forget about shooting thing as you slide past the corner they were behind. It is extremely difficult to navigate effectively due to how the mechanics of the game and weapon work.

Here is an example of what I view running and gunning as, and the kind of style that it is, I promise you, quite impossible with the snipetron. I would like to note this person navigates the levels as a whole more slowly than I personally do when running and gunning, especially in regards to the more empty periods in the level they are just running through. I use the more efficient movement pattern of: slide->somesault jump->aimdive into roll->sprint->repeat. I think it is the fastest way to just cover ground and you can maintain stamina the entire time. It also navigates over things pretty well.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.c...yer_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

On the video, It's an example of running and gunning. Not the best/fastest/coolest. Just the first one I found. It's also an example of a whole lot of things you won't be able to get done with a snipetron.

Edited January 19, 2013 by AreWeHuman

[Zakalwe]

I hipfire with my Braton, and I kill just as quick with my scoped Snipetron.

As I said, feel free to jump in game with me. :)

-

EDIT to match the above edit:

Of course I know you can't run with snipetron aimed, so, essentially, you can't continuously "run and gun"... but I am constantly mobile. I hardly stop. I move, scope, fire... jump, scope in air, fire... super jump, scope in air, fire... I'm only moving slow for the split second it takes me to ADS, and I've already chosen my target before I do.

So you're right, in the traditional sense I am not truly running and gunning but I am constantly moving and gunning and killing things just as quickly as I do when I actually run and gun with my Braton or Gorgon or pistols.

A lot of the time I clear a room before my teammate with his Gorgon gets close enough to employ his run and gun strategy, depending on how sharp my head is, I don't find the game very difficult (played far too many shooters in my time) so I test myself with things like this.

As long as I'm focused and movng fast and headshotting, I don't notice any major slowdown in my efficiency.

EDIT 2: I would like to say the Gorgon is much better at certain things like heavy enemies, shielded things, and bosses. In those instances I employ my back up or power to make up for the lack of the snipetron, but then the gorgon can't match it over distance so it feels balanced in that regard too.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Zakalwe

[AreWeHuman]

I hipfire with my Braton, and I kill just as quick with my scoped Snipetron.

As I said, feel free to jump in game with me. :)

See my edited post. Also check out that video. If you're comparing your snipetron speed to your hipfire braton killing speed, It is slow compared to the running and gunning that you can do in this game. The reason why your snipetron can "keep up" (it actually still can't tbh) with it is partially because it's a braton.

Anyway, No more offtopic for me in this thread. If you want to keep talking about the run and gun snipetron thing. PM me or make a new thread or something.

Thread is about weapon balance.

Edited January 19, 2013 by AreWeHuman

[Zakalwe]

See my edited post. Also check out that video. If you're comparing your snipetron speed to your hipfire braton killing speed, It is slow compared to the running and gunning that you can do in this game. The reason why your snipetron can "keep up" (it actually still can't tbh) with it is partially because it's a braton.

I said the Braton and the Gorgon, read the edit I made just before you posted this. ;)

Thread is about weapon balance.

We're being slightly tangential, but we're still discussing that!

[AreWeHuman]

We're being slightly tangential, but we're still discussing that!

Not really. We have been talking about running and gunning on the snipetron. Something I insist that you can't truly do. I don't feel that this is a balance issue with the weapon at all. I think the weapon is rather balanced for what it is. I haven't taken it in to the superlate stuff yet, partially because i just don't have great mods for it and it isn't that close to maxed yet, and I do think it will fall off more later compared to the gorgon and HEK. (and basically every gun actually, mutlifire is just better on weapons that shoot more bullets and multifire is basically the mod to beat).

Speaking of balance, Multi-fire seems OP as a mod as well. I think upping the damage to flesh on fire or giving it a burning effect would be good to increase it's damage on the right enemies and free it up from weapon damage reliant-scaling, flat buff armor pen, make freezes hurt sheilds more and make sheilds more of a thing, maybe make it stop sheild regen for a set amount of time and/or make it slow firing rate/attack spead and remove the movement slow from it and give the slow to electric (it would have to look visually different but i feel like a "shock slow" could work), remove the stunning electric effect (maybe buff electrics damage or something a bit as well), and then make stun better for stunning than electric. Maybe give stunning a proc damage effect. Like not damage you get every time but damage you get when you get the stun effect.

Thoughts thread?

EDIT: Thought of a better change to electric than a regular damage buff. Make the enemies who have the electricity on them shock other nearby enemies. Like just a few metre radius or so.

EDIT: thought of something better than a flat buff to armor pen. Make it actually reduce the armor of the thing you're shooting instead. Make it like a shred rather than a penetrate. plz no corrosive or acid though. It'd make the games mod effects too borderlandsy i think.

Edited January 19, 2013 by AreWeHuman

[Zakalwe]

Not really. We have been talking about running and gunning on the snipetron. Something I insist that you can't truly do. I don't feel that this is a balance issue with the weapon at all. I think the weapon is rather balanced for what it is. I haven't taken it in to the superlate stuff yet, partially because i just don't have great mods for it and it isn't that close to maxed yet, and I do think it will fall off more later compared to the gorgon and

Well, you were focusing on run and gun as the reason the Snipetron can't keep up, and I explained above that I can keep up with the run and gun techniques I use with my Braton and Gorgon simply by staying mobile and remaining accurate. I can headshot a room of squishies faster than I can run and gun them with my Gorgon (and I almost always manage to outgun Gorgon users with my Snipe when we're fighitng groups of squishies), but the Gorgon takes out heavier types faster.

In this aspect, they balance.

My Snipe, Gorgon, and Braton are all 30. None of them have multi, a mod which by all accounts seems OP (as you've reasoned) anyway.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Volume]

I don't like the feel of it. I feel like the Braton or Burston need to be better in comparison. It just doesn't feel like a stealthy ninja weapon at all.

That said if it must be in the game, is there a reason the skill tree upgrade points do more for the Gorgon? Like + crit chance is +3% crit on it, when I think it's only +1% on other weapons (I remember it was only +1 on my Mk.1 Braton, but haven't really paid attention) - do rank 2 / rank 5 weapons get better upgrades and more damage per skill-tree upgrade point? If so, if certain weapons are designed to be directly superior, why even give the illusion of choice, let alone charge people to unlock inferior weaponry?

Also maybe having a way to switch weapons during a match? Like some inventory station or something. I don't know. Sometimes, especially when the mission gets dynamic and you have a different kind of enemy to fight, you might want different weapons. For example, say you have an armor-piercing melee weapon to deal with the Grineer, and a fire-damage equipped melee for fighting infested, and you take a Grineer mission and all of a sudden it has infested on it, and you don't have your fire-sword, or something.

Or you want your snipetron for certain situations, your braton for other situations, and shotgun for others, or idk. Maybe have an alternate weapon or let you switch with some of the enemies? I mean half our guns are basically theirs anyway, or maybe that's just placeholder.

Idk. Just to add variety. I'd swap my weapon sometimes, but you'd be coming back with your original gun and that might seem silly, or...how to level a gun you don't have unlocked or...I guess it might not work with this game, but I think inventory stations or different loadouts would work.