Clan Dojo - Why The Building Costs Killed My Clan

[Guiavena]

For starter, well done Digital Extremes, for making this ABSOLUTELY AMAZING game. I donated all I could to help you guys out, and I would say was the most well spent money on games on my life. But something got my attention: The building costs on the Clan Dojo.

 

Coming up with the idea of a common area to share experiences and just hang out was certainly a very smart move, not only because it adds more gameplay value, but mainly because it brings the community together. Warframe is a game where you can solo pretty much the whole game without playing a single time with other players ( that isn't a "Con" ), but many players choose to do so because they don't see how much better their experience can be by playing with other people. Today ( 05/25 ) I bought the "Hunter" Founder Pack, upgrading from Disciple ( This new update deserved my support, as it deserve much more from other people as well ), and bought Vauban with the Platinum. The number different strategies you can do with this Warframe is so high, I will probably die of age before I test them all. I was playing with my friend ( he has a Loki ) and I would just tag the floor with a "Bounce" trap, and he would change places with the bigger Grineers, which would make them bounce up and collapse on the floor. This is the kind of teamwork value the solo players are losing. 

 

But when it comes to the "community" it self, there are different "packs" of gamer within the Warframe universe, as not everyone likes to hang out with a major crowd, but instead like to play with their friends or small - medium groups ( 5 - 15 people ). And the costs to upgrade the Clan Dojo are just too expensive! The cheapest of the buildings would take months for a smaller clan to gather the required resources, which would scare people from starting new clans, excluding those people who like to play with their buddies, or forcing them to join huge clans ( will be somewhat few as only the biggest will survive because people will realize you have to join forces with 100 people to build anything ) to be able to research, duel and etc.  

 

One solution would be maintaining the costs, but adding a way to gather resources more quickly, like a clan co-op missions, or Clan VS Clan duels. Or even making the costs "adapt" to the number of members the clan has, like a bigger clan pays more ( but has more contributors ) and a smaller pays less ( but has less contributors ). 

 

Well, that's it. Just hope you guys ( and gals ) see this, and think about it. Thanks for this amazing game ( once again thanks )! Keep the great work, because we are loving it!

[Shion963]

Dojo in general is still in Alpha, hopefully these sky-high costs are the Extremes that DE is well known for. ;p

 

My 4-man clan can't make anything at all for now. :/

[Mattyrogue]

Input here from myself and several others, that run a Small-Medium Sized Clan of Veterans who have been in it since Closed Beta (It's called Ark, we have around 10~ Members). We're all pretty much Veterans to the game and have quite the dump of resources (Except myself and Rising_Ruin, who recently reset our accounts to respend our Platinum), and well...

 

...We're only 57% of the way through our first Cross Connector...

 

Yeaaah... I know what you mean when you wanted it to be a literal resource and time drain, but, well... This is seeming a little extreme in our eyes and in need of a tweak. I mean, there'll always be those huuuge clans out there that'll be able to get everything and anything they want within a week, but reasonably speaking, for small to medium clandestine players like myself and the rest of Ark, this is a bit steep, and comparatively speaking, it's taking more commitment to do than getting Pilot License Extensions in EVE Online...

Edited May 25, 2013 by Mattyrogue

[Dirtyakadz]

I will second the thread owners opening. . . great start on this game. It has lots of potential. However, considering most people would spend 60 dollars on starcraft and be good to go. . . the concept that you would like us to pay $20 for a single warframe, or over 5 dollars to get a hallway built in a guild is exceptionally over the top. Please reduce your greed (aka your platinum requirements) to a more realistic option. Pay to win is not the way of the future. Unless you would like the game to die well before competing with other games such as League of Legends or Smite.

[Guiavena]

I will second the thread owners opening. . . great start on this game. It has lots of potential. However, considering most people would spend 60 dollars on starcraft and be good to go. . . the concept that you would like us to pay $20 for a single warframe, or over 5 dollars to get a hallway built in a guild is exceptionally over the top. Please reduce your greed (aka your platinum requirements) to a more realistic option. Pay to win is not the way of the future. Unless you would like the game to die well before competing with other games such as League of Legends or Smite.

Pay to win is when you can pay for items or benefits that give you an advantage over other players that didn't pay. Every thing in this game can be found without paying. Also it's a beta, and in most beta ( Especially by somewhat smaller companies - like Path of Exile ) cash is more expensive, as they don't have much money as Blizzard, Perfect World and etc. The problem is when they make getting items without paying so painful that its almost necessary to pay, like the Forma item, which you can pay for, or find in alert missions or orokin missions ( people say drop rates are ridiculously small, like insanely rare), and that I do not approve :/

[DeadlyNerd]

I agree, dojo prices are a tad too high for smaller clans.

 

Scaling prices with clan size would do wonders. However, they'd need to make the resource costs such that even if low, one wouldn't just invite people to his clan after spending his earnings on building the dojo.

 

Another approach is introducing resizable rooms and dojo player capacity( I know there's dojo capacity but warframe wiki doesn't explain anything past that). More players means bigger capacity requirements leading to the need of upgrading rooms.

That would pretty much solve the whole big clan small clan problem.

[Krate]

I'm hoping they add some kind of gradual raise in the cost of each room depending on how many players are in the clan.

 

Using akamikeb as an example, since his clan is 1000+ and growing. It hardly makes it fair that for each room a person only has to put in 35 of each item to get the room to start building while a smaller clan or ~20, that wants to stay small, has to put in 1000+ of each item.

[Laika]

Currently I play in a clan of 10 or 15 people who I know in real life.

This patch introduces a huge progression path that is locked to my playgroup - for us to actually research anything would take an investment on the scale of hundreds of hours for each of us.

I feel like staying in my small clan is no longer the way the game is meant to be played, and that makes me sad:  I do not want to be forced into joining a mega-guild that I have no attachment to in order to progress!

I was heart-broken when I saw the costs on the wiki (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Clan_Dojo), as I was really looking forward to building a Dojo with my friends.

This feels very similar to when WoW introduced Guild Leveling - an introduction that tore my guild apart and led to me quitting the game.  The constant sense that I was being punished for not arbitrarily joining an enormous guild of random people sucked the enjoyment out of the other aspects of the game for me.

I am confident that DE, as a development team, has the creative potential and freedom to find a way around these issues, and ensure that the Clan system is fun for all players - whether they play in a tiny, tightly knit clan or in a clan of hundreds of like-minded people.  I look forward to the future of this system.

[Db0ys742]

I agree with this completly. there too high my clan is just me and my friends from school and thats like 15peoples. The DE should set up a system at like every interval EX. 10members they pay X amount of the resource. this would make the DE's have to use all lot of math :)  but would fix small clans having tons of trouble with building 

[InFlames]

Dojo in general is still in Alpha, hopefully these sky-high costs are the Extremes that DE is well known for. ;p

 

My 4-man clan can't make anything at all for now. :/

 

have a small clan to, about 5 active members sometimes we're 6, i try to recruit some randoms in some pub games i do with my mates but still... so hard D:

[Kaian-a-coel]

I fully agree. We're like 5 or 6. After dumping MONTHS worth of ressources, we're 26% done on our VERY FIRST CROSS CORRIDOR.

We'll need to spend hundred of THOUSANDS of all the existing ressources before getting anything done.

we have to contribute 90.000 cred, 91.000 salvage, 28.000 ferrite, 96.000 nano spores, 11 forma, 21.000 circuits, 3.000 alloy plates and 14.000 polymer bundles EACH before starting to research ANYTHING. This is ridiculous.

I will advise the developpers to reduce the costs by 90%, for everyone. 1000-people clans only need one drop of each resource per person and per room anyway.

Or you index the cost on the exact number of people in the clan. 10 people => 10% of the current cost. 100 people => 100%. 1000 person => 1000%.

[Solifeaul]

I'm hopeful that these are "alpha" prices, but I'm not expecting them to change the pricing. Perhaps introducing resource drops (say: 5k Ferrite) as alert missions, or making Forma a rare resource like morphics or gallium would improve the overall building process.

[InFlames]

I'm hopeful that these are "alpha" prices, but I'm not expecting them to change the pricing. Perhaps introducing resource drops (say: 5k Ferrite) as alert missions, or making Forma a rare resource like morphics or gallium would improve the overall building process.

 

Morphics and Gallium are not that rare xD

I would say Uncommon at maximum.

[KushalaDaora]

I agree with everything in this thread. I have a Clan with a friend and we're only like 4, only 3 are active, and only 2 (my friend and me) would have time to actually get resources and spend them on building, and we can't make much progress in making our first cross corridor. We have only been able to spend around 37% of the total resources, which none of them are forma, and forma are ridiculously hard to get. It would be amazing if there would be better prices that scale with the clan size, or maybe remove forma from the required resources along with a decrease in general of the other resources, it simply makes it too hard and unreachable to make anything.

 

The idea of Dojos are AWESOME. But please, don't waste such nice concept in massive requirements that may lead to: 1. People quitting the game. 2. People having to spend money, when most can not. 3. People not wanting to join any clans or touch Dojos at all, leaving this amazing feature to rot. 4. People will get even more dispersed and play more the lone wolf style, since most do not want to play with others.

 

I love you DE for making a nice game, and I hope you can make a good approach at this issue alot of people are having.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Rainbow_Dashu

[PlumTheHermitCrab]

Dojo in general is still in Alpha, hopefully these sky-high costs are the Extremes that DE is well known for. ;p

 

My 4-man clan can't make anything at all for now. :/

My small clan is feeling the same way. The task is simply so big and daunting, collecting so many resources AND forma, that it feels nearly impossible.

This is first wave alpha though, so I'm confident in DE. They'll make this better and come out stronger than before. (I just hope it's soon. I'd hate to see players quit/lose faith over this.)

[evilfluffy]

I'm hopeful that these are "alpha" prices, but I'm not expecting them to change the pricing. Perhaps introducing resource drops (say: 5k Ferrite) as alert missions, or making Forma a rare resource like morphics or gallium would improve the overall building process.

 

 

Morphics and Gallium are not that rare xD

I would say Uncommon at maximum.

 Perhaps Control module

[Wavemaster]

I would actually be satisfied to farm a few month for everything with my few clan-members cause it would hold up the endgame a bit more, but the fact, that huge clans don't need to farm at least 2 weeks isn't fair at all! 

 

And what about a solution for people which join a clan with an already full upgraded dojo? Mustn't they pay something also, or will they get everything what others farmed more or less hard? That would actually take away a big part of the gameplay, if they don't get forced to farm for their clan and also reduces the endgame sense for new players.

 

(Oh and you should have a look at the research costs, there it becomes really funny!^-^)

Edited May 26, 2013 by Wavemaster

[GTG3000]

The Dojo research costs are killing my clan as we speak. Eh. http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Research . God damn it, DE, do you think anything through before adding it into the game?

I guess best solution would be a big overhaul for many things.

1 - Add levels of decoration to the rooms. Sure the new rooms would look not as good, but it would be cheap, even if the final cost would be about same, and smaller clans could have functionality over looks.
2 - overhaul the rooms to make the most utility ones (eg reactor and laboratories) limited in their function, but cheap. So, you could make a reactor room, that provides some power rather cheap, and you could continue to upgrade it as you require energy. Same goes for the laboratories - the oracle system could be used as a base for different research facilities. Or even have the separate laboratories be like the upgrades. This way, if your clan is small, you would build an oracle and only three cheap labs to equip everyone, but it would take way too long for a big clan to do the same without having multiple labs. The system could be used to either have a line of blueprints, or unlimited amount of blueprints in production, with the research speed gettng decreaced if the amount of blueprints exceeds amount of labs.
3 - research cost overhaul, to make it work with 2.
4 - introduce limit of clan size, based on the dojo size. Of course, giving the big clans a month to build enough member rooms to support their size before culling.

Or, alternatively, DE could postpone the dojo until the system to trade items makes it into the game (or prioritise differently, eh), and make it so that the rooms for clanmembers would give the Warlords a number of dojo key blueprints. In the beginning, every clan would receive a number of key blueprints, based on how many members the Dojo can take. This way, the bigger clans would have to work to get all their members into the dojo, and prioritize, who gets there first (since the keys, once built and claimed, can't be exchanged). Of course, it would also require the costs to be toned down so that the initial group (or a small clan that isn't going to grow any time soon) would be able to build this all in their lifetimes.

Of course there would be big, flashy rooms like the grand hall, that would take huge amount of resources. But that's what they are - big, flashy rooms.

Edited May 27, 2013 by GTG3000

[Hemlox]

What the OP said.

I do not want to play with a massive group of people, it does not interest me. I WOULD play with a large group if the game necessitated it, like a raid boss. We can only play four player missions (which is great for my handful of friends who I've spent a lot of time with on other games) so why can't four people fully experience the dojo? That's ridiculous.

In one of the livestreams, I think Steve said something like "We really want you to be in a clan" in response to a question about people being in smaller clans or wanting to play solo, rather than playing with a large clan. 

I think that's just the wrong answer, and you're alienating and cheating a lot of people out of game content. I obviously spent money on this game, I think it's really good and has a ton of potential, but It's stupid that my small clan could never hope to farm the materials to fully experience the dojo.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Hemlox

[GTG3000]

Well, here's hopes they will fix this like they did to all bad decisions before. Although I'm sure some people will cry out in woe then, since prices were so ridiculous.

[TheBigLebowski2]

This is a major issue that should at least be looked into. This is starting to push people away so much from making their own groups and instead they are being absorbed into massive clans that are not as personal as smaller ones. 

 

I believe that there should be scaling prices for all of the rooms, but they should have a reasonable flat amount that must be paid and then scales with more members. Again, this is a really big frustrating part of the game that is starting to push people away, and personally is irratiating me as well, the idea that my small clan would have to spend months to get one hallway fully built.

[pixelsafoison]

I was at the head of a 20-men clan, we decided to disband and join a huge (1300+) clan because after a lot of thought.... we just couldn't make it, we wanted the new weapons, the new toys but ... we COULDN'T ... so yeah now my friend list is my clan, and my clan is a nation...

[Petrouchka]

well another option is to make forma "farmable" for example make the BP that drop from boss not just from alert or daily reward. with that at lest we have an option to get forma even though we still have to sacrifice time to farm it

[Lemonpinesol]

I personally like this game because it is not like your traditional "more is better" MMO where having skill doesnt matter, having more members and more money does.  I would rather be in a smaller clan as well, or no clan at all as I am more than happy playing with different people from all different clans.  The feeling of having to join a massive clan in order to obtain the new items from the dojo is silly.  Not everyone that plays online video games is in it to get the MOST FRIENDS EVER (I.E. facebook or any social networking site) I enjoy playing with a few close friends, and a few new ones I have made through my time playing warframe, and the rest are one time encounters from "pugging" that I enjoy just as much.  There definately needs to be an alternative for us "mercenaries" out there who dont want a faction or clan affiliation, but roam the space helping others with our warframe knowledge we have collected over our many months with the game. 

Edited May 26, 2013 by Lemonpinesol

[mromutt]

i totally agree with the opening post, i love this game and i play with my close friends. we have a tiny clan but trying to build anything seems pretty much impossible for us the way it has been set up. the resources themselves are not that impossible but the forma is what we can not possible do.