topoftheyear Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 According to the most recent livestream (#8), most to all of our clans will be categorized as Shadow Clans or something. By Steve's standards, Shadow Clans will be the smallest clan available at 30 members or less. I don't know about you, but the 3 people in my clan won't be able to pull together 25 people worth's of resources in the same time. I don't think 10 people could do 25 people worth's resources in a similar time (varies on who we are talking about too). I like the idea that they came up with, but I think the numbers are still off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zachdaemoo Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 I am in full support of OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invino Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Too little too late to change things now for a huge swathe of early adopters .. but hey chin up folks, a whole new bunch of people can play it on PS4 when it comes out of beta finally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTG3000 Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 The whole clan system DOES seem to be ment to be reset after they learn what people really need. Everything else is said already - it was actually tuned for 30-50-100 people OKAY, it's just that really big clans were, of course, breaking the system. Let's just wait for the new system. And hope that new players will not feel inadequate like we did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafarix Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I partially agree with what people are saying here. I'm also here to play the "villain" I guess since my view will probably be not well received here. First off I agree the cost are a bit high, and I think forma should be either reduce significantly or removed all together from the Dojo cost. However the idea of resource scaling is something I believe is a terrible idea in general. Aside from it being exploitable, it is a win-lose scenario. Scaling resources will only discourage large guilds and only encourage small clans. Here is a scenario: Two group of people want to buy an airplane. One group has 10 moderately wealthy people pitching in, the other has 100 moderately wealthy people pitching in for the same kind of plane. Who will pay off the airplane first? That being said DE is looking into creating tiers of clans so clans have a better chance to shine in events. However it was never in DE original plan to have players finish an entire Dojo within a week. It is as they say, "Rome wasn't built in one day." The fact of even penalizing large guilds just because small clan/circle of friends can't keep up with them is a terrible idea. Just because a large clan has built everything and has things you don't doesn't mean they should be punished. However small clans/circle of friends should not be ignored or just told to join a larger clan. I believe the best compromise is to just lower to cost, and reduce/remove forma cost for everyone. That way no one is getting the short end of the stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTG3000 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 You see, big organisations require big resources. Essentially everywhere but here right now. Before large clans can be punished, they should be brought down to "fair" first. It's no wonder bigger clan gets stuff done quicker, but that is essentially wrong with the way the dojos are implemented. Without scaling, all dojos do are penalizing small clans for, well, being small. It's been said all over here, but since the dojo prices were balanced for clans of 50-500 people (e.g. - about 20-200 really active players), clans, that went straight through the roof with the headcount broke the dojo system. I'm not saying they done something evil, or that they even done this on purpose, but the dojo is intended to be a long project for a starting clan. And that is reflected in build times, research times, and in presumed farming times. Small clans aren't supposed to do as well as big clans, but it got out of hand. In short, without some sort of scaling (the bigger you get - the more expensive it is, the bigger you get the bigger the dojo you need, etc), there is less and less time the clan needs to burn through all the content the devs put into the dojo, which essentially means that they get less and less time to put in something new before people start leaving the game, and pause their playing until the next shiny. Aside from the great hall, there are currently no rooms, that could be considered "luxury" just for showing off, there is no need for any clan to build more than one lab of each type, and only logistics you have to worry about are the reactors and the duelling rooms. I would be all for the smaller clans to have an ability to build less decorated corridors and cheaper, but less efficient labs, but as it stands right now, the system needs much work, and the biggest problem is the mentality of the players. The initial shock (followed by great feling of inadequacy as REALLY huge clans turned out to be finishing their dojos when small ones were only half done with their cross connectors) coloured the whole thing into pretty pale colours, and I am really interested to see, how DE will work to fix that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafarix Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I have looked back a bit in DE's post on what they plan for the future clans. From what it says it looks like there will be some resource scaling. However they have not mention on how specifically it will be scaled. As of now I assume (it's bad to assume so don't take my word for it) it'll probably be scaled by the clan tiers, not by the amount of members. If DE is looking in this topic I would like to know what are the advantages in being say a mountain or moon clan? Asides from a higher cap, will there be anything to encourage new guilds to expand into one of those types of clans? Or would it be best to just stay in the shadow or river clan tier? I'm also a bit concern about the really large clans. I think there is one that has hit the cap 5k+ members. I will assume that DE will not auto kick the people in those clans when they implement these new clan tiers, but what I'm most concern is the possibility of numerous sister clans being made, and their effect in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTG3000 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Of course it will be scaled by clan tiers, since that allows for clear segregation between said tiers. From what Steve said, they will be lowering the costs for smaller clans, and the current 2k~ people clans will not notice any difference. I guess the benefit of big clans will be "we already have stuff", along with being on a different place in clan rankings since, well, you will be contributing to a huge clans' output, and will not have to compete agaisnt the small clans (which isn't fair at all). Steve also mentioned that clans over the limit will have to pay some sort of a price for that. I guess said price could be annual, but it can't be something DIFFICULT to get with such amount of people. unless they ask for 1000000 neurodes or something. Sister clans would be... Interesting, but essentially would show up as competing clans on the boards, and would have to build everything from scratch. I wonder if it really WOULD be possible to coordinate the making of something like that, though. Could be interesting to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VER1 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 The problem is many people expect everyone else to contribute material while they spend the material they farmed on themselves and if they contribute a relatively large sum to one just one part of the dojo they expect to also be the architect of the whole dojo with complete disregard for the much larger amounts of materials the other members have contributed who have gone without new weapons just to make sure the dojo gets built at a steady pace. So in my opinion it is players who think what hey contribute is precious gold as if they had made a great sacrifice while what everyone else contributes is nothing and basically is to them since they are not 'losing' anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abaddun Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I would like to ask, what is the harm in joining a larger clan? As long as your collective of friends are part of the same clan, you are still capable of keeping in contact via private message and the clan chat on quite days, most clans have a mumble/TS3 server set up for voice chat, over time as people become bored of pvp, or the clan builds a second arena, there will almost always be space for you and your friends to engage in friendly combat banter. A clan also offers opportunities for engaging conversations with strangers, and development of friendships (yes, that does sound cheesy) which adds a further social aspect to the game. From my perspective, joining a large clan and coming together as a community is a huge advantage, more for the social aspect then for material gain. I will identify a few criticisms, namely social identity, which I understand is a very important factor for many people. For this I cannot suggest a way around, aside from suggesting for a little flexibility. I do recognise that there are some clans out there that are draconian regime that demands you must put X towards dojo projects or log in once every 2 minutes, but there are also clans that are the complete opposite, so it cannot hurt to look around for something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invino Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 (edited) I would like to ask, what is the harm in joining a larger clan? .. I have nothing against big or small clans .. in my online adventures I have done both. Age of Conan for instance needs 24 players to raid, therefore a minimum of 30 people are required in a guild. Warframe tops out at 4 in group , negating a need to have more then 10 players. 10 people is average of what online friends have from other games and tend to advertise and play together with friends and those who came together want to stay together in private. Throw in terrible chat and invite system and I can imagine having 100 people here is a nightmare to see anyone, so people made small clans as they had no need to ruin their experience with others. With Dojo as is, they had to make a choice - disband and join a bigger clan or not have the uber cool new weapons everyone will be running around in a few weeks. Also some people like to gather and build without just hopping into one that's not "theirs" (like I do) Edited June 20, 2013 by Invino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abaddun Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 so in this instance, wouldn't it be more productive to call for improvements for managing, messaging and inviting friends on your friends list, rather than decrease resource costs for small clans to achieve similar results? with improvements to the user interface, everybody benefits from this, and small clanners can still keep in contact with the social group and manage games together, while still having access to a large and well funded dojo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTG3000 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Abbaddun, it would and it is indeed required. But difference between big clans and small clans is also psychological. In small clan, you have a bunch of friends, who all work towards common goal and you KNOW you're contributing to that goal. You know it because you are out of mats. And everyone around is similar. And in big clan, well... You might as well be a leech. There is less personal contribution, and even less decisionmaking... All in all, that is to be expected since the dojo every clan builds has exact same requirements and max size. The "problem" is really not in resource prices. The "problem" is in the perception. And perception is - if you're in the small clan, you're worthless. No matter how hardcore your grind is, and how quickly your 30-people clan goes through building rooms, you WILL feel inadequate, when 1000 people finish doing same thing in a day with resources they had already, because, realistically enough, same buildings are worth the same amount of resources. I do not know, how that problem with perception can be fixed without introducing SOMETHING, that scales with your headcount. It could be minimal decoration level, it could be barraks, it could be amount of labs, or their tier, it could be some other thing, that makes you think about logistics of huge clan. It's just too simple right now. It shouldn't be, because otherwise we see the most efficient way, and start despising the less efficient ones. And that kills fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordAsmolicious Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I myself am a Warlord of a small clan. less than 25 members. but above 20. We have been working on the Dojo since Day 1 of Up8 some of us are not so active and some of us are active. with hard work we finally have the oracle... now a lab is being built. (still waiting for oracle to finish though.) But i have to say i feel weak. compared to the big clans i feel worthless. we work so hard to get where we are now then come a few guys from a bigger clan and they start showing off their goodies. I REALLY hope that that tiering system they are working on comes soon. Ive been waiting for it ever since they anounced it. Currently a small clan has to have strong members and loyal members otherwise you wont survive. Im proud of all the members in my clan. to All small clan leaderships do not give up guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VER1 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I myself am a Warlord of a small clan. less than 25 members. but above 20. We have been working on the Dojo since Day 1 of Up8 some of us are not so active and some of us are active. with hard work we finally have the oracle... now a lab is being built. (still waiting for oracle to finish though.) But i have to say i feel weak. compared to the big clans i feel worthless. we work so hard to get where we are now then come a few guys from a bigger clan and they start showing off their goodies. I REALLY hope that that tiering system they are working on comes soon. Ive been waiting for it ever since they anounced it. Currently a small clan has to have strong members and loyal members otherwise you wont survive. Im proud of all the members in my clan. to All small clan leaderships do not give up guys! Stay Strong fellow Warlord of small clan! I am part of a small clan as well only 15 strong. We are in the middle of constructing our first Research lab. Well over halfway now. It can be done. Be a clan where your members are not just a number but belong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafarix Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Of course it will be scaled by clan tiers, since that allows for clear segregation between said tiers. From what Steve said, they will be lowering the costs for smaller clans, and the current 2k~ people clans will not notice any difference. I guess the benefit of big clans will be "we already have stuff", along with being on a different place in clan rankings since, well, you will be contributing to a huge clans' output, and will not have to compete agaisnt the small clans (which isn't fair at all). I believe that the "largest" a clan can be will be 1k people max with the highest tier the Moon clan, but we'll see if the resources for bigger clans are noticeable or not when they release the update in the future. I don't see how big clans being unable to compete against small clans in this future update is unfair. If they did chances are the leader board will just be filled with nothing but Moon/Mountain clans. By separating the clans by tiers the smaller clans now have their chance to be represented on their own tier leader-boards. This way the small clans will have their chance to shine instead of standing in the shadows as the large clans top the leader-boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTG3000 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I myself am a Warlord of a small clan. less than 25 members. but above 20. We have been working on the Dojo since Day 1 of Up8 some of us are not so active and some of us are active. with hard work we finally have the oracle... now a lab is being built. (still waiting for oracle to finish though.) But i have to say i feel weak. compared to the big clans i feel worthless. we work so hard to get where we are now then come a few guys from a bigger clan and they start showing off their goodies. I REALLY hope that that tiering system they are working on comes soon. Ive been waiting for it ever since they anounced it. Currently a small clan has to have strong members and loyal members otherwise you wont survive. Im proud of all the members in my clan. to All small clan leaderships do not give up guys! Stay Strong fellow Warlord of small clan! I am part of a small clan as well only 15 strong. We are in the middle of constructing our first Research lab. Well over halfway now. It can be done. Be a clan where your members are not just a number but belong. I'm a warlord of 30-people clan, and we are half through with our chem lab researches already. Dojos take time, but they are possible. Stay strong. I believe that the "largest" a clan can be will be 1k people max with the highest tier the Moon clan, but we'll see if the resources for bigger clans are noticeable or not when they release the update in the future. I don't see how big clans being unable to compete against small clans in this future update is unfair. If they did chances are the leader board will just be filled with nothing but Moon/Mountain clans. By separating the clans by tiers the smaller clans now have their chance to be represented on their own tier leader-boards. This way the small clans will have their chance to shine instead of standing in the shadows as the large clans top the leader-boards. I thought Steve said moon will be 2000? And, I didn't say that separating clans is unfair, I said that it's unfair to pit 5k-clan against 30-clan. I apologize for confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafarix Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 My mistake moon clan is 2k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topoftheyear Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Just thought I'd pop this in here: Costing more for more is just common sense when applied to real word situations. It costs more to feed 2000 people than it would to feed 20. The same can be said for housing, travelling, training, etc., so some form of scaling or limitation is needed in some manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topoftheyear Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Also, prob fixed for me. Just built a cross connector in 5 seconds, Dirt Cheap. It's about freakin' time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImPaint Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Well U9 has brought that. The lower "tier" clan (less members) need a smaller amount of resources to build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaBucket Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Okay well now, it's broken to hell. So disappointing. We farmed like hell for our Dojo and now it's a freebie, what the hell is the point. It's WAY too easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mak_Gohae Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Okay well now, it's broken to hell. So disappointing. We farmed like hell for our Dojo and now it's a freebie, what the hell is the point. It's WAY too easy. Lulz. I think the strategy DE has now is for the reaaaaaaaaaaaally lazy people to purchase mats with plat cause all the screams of grinding and farming. Let's see how it pans out becasue so far the requirement for the smallest clan are really low. Forma still going to slow the builds down but still........everything else means nothing, building dojo for low levels now really just means getting Forma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheJagji Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I will second the thread owners opening. . . great start on this game. It has lots of potential. However, considering most people would spend 60 dollars on starcraft and be good to go. . . the concept that you would like us to pay $20 for a single warframe, or over 5 dollars to get a hallway built in a guild is exceptionally over the top. Please reduce your greed (aka your platinum requirements) to a more realistic option. Pay to win is not the way of the future. Unless you would like the game to die well before competing with other games such as League of Legends or Smite. WTF? Theres no PvP, so how do you compare it to LoL or Smite. You must be high... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTG3000 Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 We asked for this - we got this. Everything's awesome except for the dojo decorations, that really require some guides not to put them awkwardly a bit off center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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