Why De Was Wrong In Removing Eb Syndicate Synergy.

[Empiren]

So hopefully this provides a short explanation on
to why DE is wrong in removing syndicate synergy and my worries that this will become a trend involving Excalibur.

[Previously]: Syndicate Mods worked with EB
-All other weapon mods(except CL) still worked with EB.

1. You could use either top-tier weapons(Scindo Prime) or Syndicate weapons(Jaw sword) in order to play with EB.
2. There was no reason to use low-tier weapons that do not have syndicate mods as they benefitted neither EB or normal melee gameplay

[Currently] Syndicate mods do not work with EB.
1. Now only top tier weapons are considered for the use of EB.
2. No one is going to use the syndicate weapons because they offer a dead mod slot in regards to maximizing EB and are less useful without now.


Conclusion: By removing the synergy, DE eliminated the use of more weapons in favor of less.

==============================================================\

[To Quote DE]

Megan" post="5705339" timestamp="1439578840"]
Tenno,

Today Covert Lethality will be changed from ‘lethal damage if undetected’ to ‘lethal damage on stealth-finishers’. Covert Lethality is supposed to grant Lethal Damage for stealth tactics and not ground-slamming or obliterating blind enemies. We know this may come as a disappointment as many Tenno have sworn their life to the power of this Mod however the myriad of unintended uses was proving more powerful than intended.

After considering the use of Covert Lethality for Exalted Blade a debate ensued about the use of melee Mods that are specific to certain weapons; again, it was decided that while we intended for certain melee Mods to amplify Exalted Blade it didn't make sense for all melee Mods to apply. For example, currently the buff from Justice Blades works for Exalted Blade even though the mod is an augment for the Dual Cleavers.

Next week we intend to limit the Melee mods that work with Exalted Blade strictly to generic mods (ie: Pressure Point, Molten Impact, etc) but not weapon-specific augments. We appreciate that this will remove certain fitting strategies however we feel that those combos were not the intention of the ability and want to avoid making it so that you only want to play Excalibur with one or two specific weapons.

We hope that you will agree that this is better for Warframe balance and makes conceptual sense for how you would expect the power to work.

So to paraphrase DE: "Syndicate mods limited melee choice"

However, DE effectively killed off syndicate weapons being a viable choice by doing so, making the potential pool LESS

There was simply a better option for overall use in EB, just like there are better mods and better weapons for overall synergy with Excalibur and EB right now.

I fear that with this recent nerf that Excalibur will now make his slow descent into nerf hell because their justification can still be applied to the current setup.
==========================================================================
Edit: Because many people here have not gotten the point, I have copied another user's post in order to explain my point more clearly than I have with my current structure:

Lets say there is a Player X who chooses the best weapons and follows meta(which is 90% of the Warframe community). And lets say he has Excalibur and some other frame, say Loki.
So, X will surely choose one of Dakra P, Scindo P, D.Nikana, etc. when playing with Loki.
Now, before augment change, he/she at least used any one of Cleavers, skana, jaw sword or mire, since, obviously, he/she goes for the best possible build.
Therefore, with different frames, he/she at least used different weapons. More Diversity.

Now, after augment change, he/she will surely stop using cleavers, skana, jaw sword or mire, for the obvious reason. He/She will just minmax any one of the popular melee weapons and stick with that. Therefore, now, he/she uses the same weapon with both Loki and Excalibur. Less Diversity.

There is no point in considering the remaining 10% who likes to use different weapons depending on their mood. Because these players will keep using and testing different weapons and builds, no matter what DE does.

Hope you got my point with EB change. This is exactly why I was against the EB augment change. Just so you know, I was not against the Covert Lethality change. I understand it was implemented for the Assassins Creed effect and EB+CL was a bug.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Empiren

[Dualstar]

One thing before i begin a teardown, did the melee weapon you used in the first place actually affect EB at all?

Edited August 20, 2015 by Dualstar

[egregiousRac]

Here's the issue with having syndicate mods:

Only a few weapons had syndicate mods, making them better than any others.

 

As it stands now, only generic mods are supported, which makes every weapon equal when it comes to EB. It is entirely up to you what you want to bring, and the playing field is level.

[DoctorGyarados]

One thing before i begin a teardown, did the melee weapon you used in the first place actually affect EB at all?

The melee weapon itself didn't affect Exalted Blade, no. It only received benefits from mods. If you had the same mod layout, your Exalted Blade would swing just as fast and do just as much damage whether you had the Obex or the Scindo Prime.

[[DE]Momaw]

As it stands now, only generic mods are supported, which makes every weapon equal when it comes to EB. It is entirely up to you what you want to bring, and the playing field is level.

 

Exactly this.

 

</thread>

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

One thing before i begin a teardown, did the melee weapon you used in the first place actually affect EB at all?

They don't, only mods. Weapon type also doesn't matter because his passive doesn't apply to EB (or always applies, it's hard to test, but I tested different weapon types and the damage was always the same, ie, tested with reaper prime and dakra prime equipped and EB would always deal the same damage because they had the same mods).

Before some weapons gave a huge damage boost (+100% base damage is a lot since it affected elemental mods damage too), now none gives advantage, so you are not penalized during EB for using your favourite melee weapon (if it wasn't one of the ones with the advantage), so the variety improves. What you use outside of EB should be up to you, even if you want to use a MK-1 weapon, and it doesn't matter for the case in hand.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Sorrow0110

[Empiren]

Here's the issue with having syndicate mods:

Only a few weapons had syndicate mods, making them better than any others.

 

As it stands now, only generic mods are supported, which makes every weapon equal when it comes to EB. It is entirely up to you what you want to bring, and the playing field is level.

 

Except it's not.

 

If you ignore outside of EB, then you ignore the fact that no one was using these weapons to begin with.

(without the mod)

 

So essentially, everyone uses their scindo prime resulting less variety as a whole.

 

 

If you remove the mod-requirement you might as well remove the other mods too, because mods like lifestrike are not all equally obtainable

 

which reminds me, syndicate mods were, and equally so.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Empiren

[Marthrym]

Here's the issue with having syndicate mods:

Only a few weapons had syndicate mods, making them better than any others.

 

As it stands now, only generic mods are supported, which makes every weapon equal when it comes to EB. It is entirely up to you what you want to bring, and the playing field is level.

 

 

 

Exactly this.

 

</thread>

 

 

Except this reasoning doesn't hold here.

 

People will simply go back to the next best thing, period. This didn't allow more choice, it just shifted that choice. People won't use trash melee just because they won't affect E.Blade's performance, they'll use the best melee weapons, so a very few select one, to have something to fall back to just in case. DE didn't allow more good choices, no. They made many more subpar choices possible, nothing more. Oh and in the process, they once again made syndicate mods irrelevant, or even worse, a downside to E.Blade, since they take up a mod slot for another mod that could boost it's effectiveness.

 

As far as I'm concerned, this decision was very poorly thought-out, if thought-out at all.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Marthrym

[egregiousRac]

Except it's not.

 

If you ignore outside of EB, then you ignore the fact that no one was using these weapons to begin with.

(without the mod)

 

So essentially, everyone uses their scindo prime resulting less variety as a whole.

 

 

If you remove the mod-requirement you might as well remove the other mods too, because mods like lifestrike are not all equally obtainable

 

which reminds me, syndicate mods were, and equally so.

 

It results in players bringing whatever weapon they like instead of bringing a weapon they don't like just because it makes the ability better.

Not everyone likes the Scindo Prime. I haven't even maxed mine, it's in the pile with all the other mastery fodder (though that pile is getting pretty small since I am MR19).

 

As for mods being equally attainable, that doesn't matter. What matters is them being equally equippable.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

Except this reasoning doesn't hold here.

 

People will simply go back to the next best thing, period. This didn't allow more choice, it just shifted that choice. People won't use trash melee just because they won't affect E.Blade's performance, they'll use the best melee weapons, so a very few select one, to have something to fall back to just in case. DE didn't allow more good choices, no. They made many more subpar choices possible, nothing more. Oh and in the process, they once again made syndicate mods irrelevant, or even worse, a downside to E.Blade, since they take up a mod slot for another mod that could boost it's effectiveness.

 

As far as I'm concerned, this decision was very poorly thought-out, if thought-out at all.

Outside of EB it's a completely different issue, and if people want to complain about it they can do so without doing it so behind the EB argument.

[Dualstar]

The melee weapon itself didn't affect Exalted Blade, no.

Alright, thank you.

 

 

So hopefully this provides a short explanation on to why DE is wrong in removing syndicate synergy and my worries that this will become a trend involving Excalibur.

 

[Previously]: Syndicate Mods worked with EB

-All other weapon mods(except CL) still worked with EB.

 

1. You could use either top-tier weapons(Scindo Prime) or Syndicate weapons(Jaw sword) in order to play with EB.

2. There was no reason to use low-tier weapons that do not have syndicate mods as they benefitted neither EB or normal melee gameplay

 

[Currently] Syndicate mods do not work with EB.

1. Now only top tier weapons are considered for the use of EB.

2. No one is going to use the syndicate weapons because they offer a dead mod slot in regards to maximizing EB and are less useful without now.

 

 

Conclusion: By removing the synergy, DE eliminated the use of more weapons in favor of less.

Ok so im going to be generous and say theres 17 'top tier' melee weapons based on this;

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YJ0NRnLrCoJ14nponikNRwZ1N1cOM4KRL9aDLwbTfU4/htmlview?usp=sharing&sle=true#

 

Since at the time of this writing its a bit out of date, im going to deduct the Prisma Skana and Cleavers from the list,leaving 15.

 

Glaive Prime has massively different biuld requirements to most melees, so im cutting that from the list too, this leaves 14 top tier melee weapons.

 

Now there are 5 available augments for melee weapons, useable on a total of 8 weapons.

 

So with the removal of augments affecting EB, the total number of 'best result' weapons has gone from 8, to a minimum of 14.

 

And since only mods matter, not the weapon, you can use literally any melee weapon you can biuld for and expect similar results whether it be the almighty Scindo Prime or the noob trap Cronus.

 

In conclusion, your argument is a load of asinine S#&$.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Dualstar

[Vyrn]

Except it's not.

 

If you ignore outside of EB, then you ignore the fact that no one was using these weapons to begin with.

 

 

So essentially, everyone uses their scindo prime resulting less variety as a whole.

Here's the thing, though. Generally, if people are running a build specifically for Exalted Blade, they generally will have Exalted Blade up the entire game (or at least a very large portion of it).

 

Here's another thing. Not everyone runs Scindo Prime currently, whether they are Excalibur or not. People will do what they always did and use whatever they feel like using.

 

All this fuss about everyone running Scindo Prime means nothing. Unless people are solely judging weapons based on their listed stats (aka min-maxers and the like), they will just use whatever they feel like using (which may or may not include Scindo Prime).

 

Besides, Excal's passive already means certain weapon categories are best for Exalted Blade. Heavy Blade is not one of those categories. People who care about getting the most damage in EB will be using something other than Scindo Prime.

 

Edit: I was misinformed about that last part.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Vyrnaazus

[FrackingBiscuit]

I think people complaining about how they have fewer choices about what weapon to use with EB are hilarious.

 

Don't @(*()$ kid yourselves.  You didn't USE the Skana or Dual Cleavers.  You USED Exalted Blade.  Those other weapons just sat on your back completely motionless, exactly as they would if you were just leveling them for mastery.

 

Also, can we please stop using the word "synergy" incorrectly?

Edited August 20, 2015 by FrackingBiscuit

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

Here's the thing, though. Generally, if people are running a build specifically for Exalted Blade, they generally will have Exalted Blade up the entire game (or at least a very large portion of it).

 

Here's another thing. Not everyone runs Scindo Prime currently, whether they are Excalibur or not. People will do what they always did and use whatever they feel like using.

 

All this fuss about everyone running Scindo Prime means nothing. Unless people are solely judging weapons based on their listed stats (aka min-maxers and the like), they will just use whatever they feel like using (which may or may not include Scindo Prime).

 

Besides, Excal's passive already means certain weapon categories are best for Exalted Blade. Heavy Blade is not one of those categories. People who care about getting the most damage in EB will be using something other than Scindo Prime.

Passive doesn't matter in EB, Scindo Prime will add as much damage to EB as the Skana does. You can try it, if they have the same mods they will do the same damage during EB, you only see different damage numbers outside of it.

(I tested it yesterday after the patch. For the record I used Reaper Prime, Dakra Prime and Venka Atterax, all did the same exact damage during EB while Dakra should've done more.)

Edited August 20, 2015 by Sorrow0110

[VanguardT-EN-]

I've always used Dakra prime with excalibur. Trust me, the damage output is good. 

And just quoting someone...

"...People will simply go back to the next best thing, period. This didn't allow more choice, it just shifted that choice. People won't use trash melee just because they won't affect E.Blade's performance, they'll use the best melee weapons..."

 

I don't see the point here, why would you use your worst melee? And that's for all warframes, not only excalibur. I always used my best melees with the other warframes.

Edited August 20, 2015 by SucodeCaju

[Vyrn]

Passive doesn't matter in EB, Scindo Prime will add as much damage to EB as the Skana does. You can try it, if they have the same mods they will do the same damage during EB, you only see different damage numbers outside of it.

(I tested it yesterday after the patch. For the record I used Reaper Prime, Dakra Prime and Venka Atterax, all did the same exact damage during EB while Dakra should've done more.)

Oh, okay. I had read somewhere a while back that it did have an effect, but I never got around to testing it. Thanks!

[Empiren]

I've always used Dakra prime with excalibur. Trust me, the damage output is good. 

And just quoting someone...

 

I don't see the point here, why would you use your worst melee? And that's for all warframes, not only excalibur. I always used my best melees with the other warframes.

That's the point, removal of syndicate mods doesn't actually do anything about the issue DE said existed.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Empiren

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

Oh, okay. I had read somewhere a while back that it did have an effect, but I never got around to testing it. Thanks!

The wiki says it, and I thought that it did too, but then I tested and it didn't apply, though it could be the case that EB always gets the passive no matter the weapon you use, but that's harder to test since you need to do a whole lot of math to see which are supposed to be the raw damage values, and I only tested a few different types of weapons to see if there was any change VS Dakra Prime (which does get the passive outside of EB). But it doesn't really matter if it's not applied or always applied, because the weapon type itself doesn't matter.

[Empiren]

And since only mods matter, not the weapon, you can use literally any melee weapon you can biuld for and expect similar results whether it be the almighty Scindo Prime or the noob trap Cronus.

 

In conclusion, your argument is a load of asinine S#&$.

Yes but you could already do that.

 

The actual effective use of these weapons was never buffed , it was only the syndicate weapons that were nerfed.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Empiren

[Dualstar]

Yes but you could already do that.

 

The actual effective use of these weapons was never buffed , it was only the syndicate weapons that were nerfed.

So your problem is not with weapon diveristy as you said in your OP, but rather with the fact that you cant have +320% base damage with innate health regen anymore.

[bubbabenali]

How is it, that Excalibros think if they don't use Syndi-Weapions no one does?

Guys you are not the center of the universe.

[Stratego89]

So... you seem to be under the impression that Exalted Blade borrows from your melee weapon for it's stats... but it doesn't. It's not Hysteria. It ONLY counts the mods- meaning until they made this change, it was ALWAYS wiser to pick a syndicate mod- scindo prime couldn't compete vs them because scindo prime didn't have that mod- it didn't matter if scindo prime was stronger than it to begin with or not. Now in the eyes of Exalted blade, all weapons are equal. This change was good. DE was not wrong, they were right.

[_FrostPrime_]

 

Conclusion: By removing the synergy, DE eliminated the use of more weapons in favor of less.

 

So. Does anyone else see how completely backwards the O.P's logic is?

[Empiren]

So... you seem to be under the impression that Exalted Blade borrows from your melee weapon for it's stats... but it doesn't. It's not Hysteria. It ONLY counts the mods- meaning until they made this change, it was ALWAYS wiser to pick a syndicate mod- scindo prime couldn't compete vs them because scindo prime didn't have that mod- it didn't matter if scindo prime was stronger than it to begin with or not. Now in the eyes of Exalted blade, all weapons are equal. This change was good. DE was not wrong, they were right.

I know it does not borrow from the stats

 

I also know that everyone is just going to use the scindo or other top tier weapons now.

 

Again, warframe is a game about min-max. Nobody is going to be using the lvl 1 bo with EB and crying that they can't min-max because of the mods.

 

Simply put: It's just removing the usefullness of syndicate mods

 

There is no reason to use the buffs on them now

[egregiousRac]

I know it does not borrow from the stats

 

I also know that everyone is just going to use the scindo or other top tier weapons now.

 

Again, warframe is a game about min-max. Nobody is going to be using the lvl 1 bo with EB and crying that they can't min-max because of the mods.

 

Simply put: It's just removing the usefullness of syndicate mods

 

There is no reason to use the buffs on them now

 

It is only removing the usefulness of syndicate mods on EB, which they had no business applying to anyway.

 

Is EB a Skana? No.

Is it a set of Cleavers? No.

Is it a Jaw Sword? Again, no.

 

The mods are still extremely useful because they make the weapons that they apply to quite good. It never made sense to have them apply to a weapon that is already incredible without them.