Why De Was Wrong In Removing Eb Syndicate Synergy.

[NinthAria]

Couldn't the same be said of the time before the nerf? 

 

Probably. If I'm being perfectly honest, I think people are overstating the importance of the Exalted Blade changes a bit. Syndicate mods were a big boost for it, to be sure, but it was an excellent and extremely powerful ability even if you didn't have those, just as it's still a powerful ability now that they can't be used. The answer to how "necessary" syndicate mods were for Exalted Blade depended a lot on how many waves into defense (or interception, or survival) you wanted to take your Excalibur; for most conventional gameplay, it does the job without them and then some.

 

In any case, whatever the situation may be with melee weapon balance, good or ill, it's not tied to Exalted Blade any more; that's probably for the best.

[Evanescent]

So because excalibur doesn't benefit from syndicate mods in EB anymore they can't be used?

What???

The thing now is, no weapon is penalised for not having a syndicate mod that affects EB. Hence all weapons are up for consideration.

 

If you're asking DE to somehow control player choice, you're thinking it wrong. Their responsibility ends by making all eligible. whether players will or no is none of their headache.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Evanescent

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Probably. If I'm being perfectly honest, I think people are overstating the importance of the Exalted Blade changes a bit. Syndicate mods were a big boost for it, to be sure, but it was an excellent and extremely powerful ability even if you didn't have those, just as it's still a powerful ability now that they can't be used. The answer to how "necessary" syndicate mods were for Exalted Blade depended a lot on how many waves into defense (or interception, or survival) you wanted to take your Excalibur; for most conventional gameplay, it does the job without them and then some.

 

In any case, whatever the situation may be with melee weapon balance, good or ill, it's not tied to Exalted Blade any more; that's probably for the best.

It is just another Excal nerf, and he has had too many already. Further more, it's annoying because it lowers the variety of desirable weapons you would use for EB, which is the exact opposite of the reason they cited for this change.That's why people are so annoyed by it.

[tcooc]

Before, there was no reason to use top tier weapons because the best weapons to use with EB were the ones with syndicate mods.

 

Now, the syndicate mod does introduce a dead slot to the weapon, but the syndicate effects are so powerful that it's worth it.

[NinthAria]

It is just another Excal nerf, and he has had too many already. Further more, it's annoying because it lowers the variety of desirable weapons you would use for EB, which is the exact opposite of the reason they cited for this change.That's why people are so annoyed by it.

 

He's had barely any since his rework, and there is literally no connection between what weapon you use specifically for Exalted Blade and Exalted Blade's actual performance, because Exalted Blade is affected by mods, not weapon stats. That's the point. If you're trying to make a point about melee weapon variety in general, that's another topic entirely; one you might make some noticeable ground in. But it has nothing to do with Exalted Blade any more.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

He's had barely any since his rework, and there is literally no connection between what weapon you use specifically for Exalted Blade and Exalted Blade's actual performance, because Exalted Blade is affected by mods, not weapon stats. That's the point. If you're trying to make a point about melee weapon variety in general, that's another topic entirely; one you might make some noticeable ground in. But it has nothing to do with Exalted Blade any more.

There is no reason to use a weak weapon on Excal when the strongest weapon in the game will have the same effect inside of EB as the weak weapon, but outside of EB, the strongest weapon will completely dwarf the weak weapon.

 

Under the old system, you actually had a reason to use the weaker weapon because the effect of the augment mods gave extra utility to EB to make up for being weaker outside of EB.  It was a give and take system (i.e. balanced).  Now, that augment actually makes EB weaker.

 

So again, the change lowered the variety of weapons for EB use.

[NinthAria]

You can optimize Exalted Blade and your melee weapon choice separately. That's the point. One of them doesn't impact the other. If you still want to rock your Scindo Prime for use outside Exalted Blade, you can. Some people will. Some people won't, for reasons I outlined earlier. But it's a choice that no longer has any bearing on Exalted Blade's performance.

[Lynxh]

There is no reason to use a weak weapon on Excal when the strongest weapon in the game will have the same effect inside of EB as the weak weapon, but outside of EB, the strongest weapon will completely dwarf the weak weapon.

 

Under the old system, you actually had a reason to use the weaker weapon because the effect of the augment mods gave extra utility to EB to make up for being weaker outside of EB.  It was a give and take system (i.e. balanced).  Now, that augment actually makes EB weaker.

 

So again, the change lowered the variety of weapons for EB use.

 

I'd say that the amount of melee weapons that you can now use far outweigh the variety before :/ (amount of weapons that use syn mods vs those that don't). At least as far as influencing EB is concerned.

 

Melee weapon balance outside of that is another issue that should have never been tied into EB to begin with imo, powers should never tie into weapons stats since this will only enforce any imbalance that is there under a magnifying scope and bleed into Frame balance issues. If WF were better balanced and had a more defined power structure/curve this would be less of a concern/issue.

 

Also yes, I consider Hysteria to be terrible due to it's weapon stats dependencies.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I'd say that the amount of melee weapons that you can now use far outweigh the variety before :/ (amount of weapons that use syn mods vs those that don't). At least as far as influencing EB is concerned.

 

Melee weapon balance outside of that is another issue that should have never been tied into EB to begin with imo, powers should never tie into weapons stats since this will only enforce any imbalance that is there under a magnifying scope and bleed into Frame balance issues. If WF were better balanced and had a more defined power structure/curve this would be less of a concern/issue.

 

Also yes, I consider Hysteria to be terrible due to it's weapon stats dependencies.

No one was forcing you to use syndicate mods.  You had a choice between using the best weapon in the game outside of EB, or a weaker weapon that had extra utility when in EB. It was a trade off (i.e. balance).

 

Now using the augments will actually make EB weaker and makes using those weak weapons pointless. Variety went down.

[Lynxh]

No one was forcing you to use syndicate mods.  You had a choice between using the best weapon in the game outside of EB, or a weaker weapon that had extra utility when in EB. It was a trade off (i.e. balance).

 

Now using the augments will actually make EB weaker and makes using those weak weapons pointless. Variety went down.

 

I can use the same argument, no one is forcing you to use the syn mods now either.

 

You only keep highlighting the fact that there were only a handfull of weapons that people would use because they were either top tier or syn modded in favor of EB. While now far less of this matters opening up more variety for optimal use with EB.

 

Some suffer, like glaives and people who mod their weapon for melee rather then EB (trade-off), but that still leaves a far larger pool of weapons open for optimal EB use then before.

 

Syn mods were double dipping with EB, now they are a tradeoff (i.e balance?).

Edited August 22, 2015 by Lynxh

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I can use the same argument, no one is forcing you to use the syn mods.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.  The point is if you aren't using the mods then they is no point in using those weapons as they are generally weak, and the DPS kings of weapons like the Scindo Prime or Dakra Prime are going to benefit EB just as well but be massively better outside of it.  Ergo, the logical choice of which weapon to use has a massive drop in variety.

[Lynxh]

Thank you, Captain Obvious.  The point is if you aren't using the mods then they is no point in using those weapons as they are generally weak, and the DPS kings of weapons like the Scindo Prime or Dakra Prime are going to benefit EB just as well but be massively better outside of it.  Ergo, the logical choice of which weapon to use has a massive drop in variety.

 

Just the ones that perform just as good with EB as with Melee, which is a very important distinction that you failed to adress in your posts(hence my persistence). Overall variety with EB has still gone up in terms of being optimal with it (math isn't hard), but if you are looking to be optimal at Melee AND EB then yes you are correct, the standard melee tiers apply excluding syn weapons.

 

I do have to mention that there are plenty of people who don't run with the best melee, logical or not, for those people this has been a boon and a up in variety. Min-Maxers lose out, everybody else wins. For better or worse.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Lynxh

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Just the ones that perform just as good with EB as with Melee, which is a very important distinction that you failed to adress in your posts(hence my persistence). Overall variety with EB has still gone up in terms of being optimal with it (math isn't hard), but if you are looking to be optimal at Melee AND EB then yes you are correct, the standard melee tiers apply excluding syn weapons.

EB does not exist in a vacuum. You will not be in EB 100% of the time, and there is no reason to switch to a weaker weapon when the strongest one works exactly the same.

[AkioKasai]

So hopefully this provides a short explanation on to why DE is wrong in removing syndicate synergy and my worries that this will become a trend involving Excalibur.

 

[Previously]: Syndicate Mods worked with EB

-All other weapon mods(except CL) still worked with EB.

 

1. You could use either top-tier weapons(Scindo Prime) or Syndicate weapons(Jaw sword) in order to play with EB.

2. There was no reason to use low-tier weapons that do not have syndicate mods as they benefitted neither EB or normal melee gameplay

 

We're speaking of EB here, it was either use a Syndicate Weapon or a Non-Syndicate Weapon. The tier of which had no effect on EB's ability to perform. EB Excalibur's used EB, not their Melee weapon, making their 'tier' completely irrelevant to a discussion of EB.

 

 

[Currently] Syndicate mods do not work with EB.

1. Now only top tier weapons are considered for the use of EB.

2. No one is going to use the syndicate weapons because they offer a dead mod slot in regards to maximizing EB and are less useful without now.

 

No they aren't, because the use of EB is the use of EB. In higher levels of Survival or Defense, I will never one time pull out my Dakra Prime as my EB Excalibur, I will drop a Large Energy Restoration and go back to using the vastly superior EB. Whether I had chosen to equip my Orthos Prime instead is completely irrelevant, as I'll be using EB.

 

No EB Excalibur is going to use the syndicate weapons, because they offer a dead mod slot. Non-EB Users will continue to do what i have always seen them do, and that's use either whatever they want, or the top-tier weapon. Those who enjoy the Syndicate Weapons will continue to use them, because they use them, and not EB.

 

As it was optimal to use Syndicate weapons for EB, pre-patch, there was only a small handful of weapons one would equip in order to maximize EB. Now, you can equip any weapon, regardless of tier, because you won't be swinging that weapon, you'll be swinging EB. Nothing has changed for EB users, other than the loss of power EB has received with this nerf.

 

Melee weapons themselves are no different than they were before, and the same variety among them remains as it once was.

[Lynxh]

EB does not exist in a vacuum. You will not be in EB 100% of the time, and there is no reason to switch to a weaker weapon when the strongest one works exactly the same.

 

 

-Snip- 

 

I do have to mention that there are plenty of people who don't run with the best melee, logical or not, for those people this has been a boon and a up in variety. Min-Maxers lose out, everybody else wins. For better or worse.

 

There ya go, and I also already mentioned not everybody has access to the best melee. I don't know with whom you play, but I see a lot of variety rather then just top tier. So stop acting like that is the only way people play, even if you do (or not).

Edited August 22, 2015 by Lynxh

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

There ya go

Those people are irrelevant. If they run whatever they want regardless of whether it makes sense or not then the patch doesn't effect them one way or another. People that choose their gear based on logical reasoning now have less variety.

[AkioKasai]

Those people are irrelevant. If they run whatever they want regardless of whether it makes sense or not then the patch doesn't effect them one way or another. People that choose their gear based on logical reasoning now have less variety.

 

Let's apply your logic then. Since it would be stupid to use anything other than the Dual Cleavers/Skana Varients/Maybe Jaw Sword for EB, since you'd be losing that extra 100% damage mod/Toxin damage, anyone who doesn't use them isn't maxing it to it's potential, so we'll ignore them. That leaves you with a choice of four to five melee weapons for optimizing EB.

 

Post-patch, the number of weapons that can optimally build EB will be increased to almost the entire pool of Melee Weapons, therefor, increasing the variety of the weapon you'll have on your back for EB.

 

Once again, Melee weapons themselves, unchanged. Only EB is changed, meaning the same variety for non-EB users remains completely intact, and EB can now run any of the dozens of weapons available since it will make no difference in the end.

 

Sounds to me like variety for EB users just went through the roof.

[Lynxh]

Those people are irrelevant..

 

 

Yeah I'm done here..

[Tveoh]

Those people are irrelevant. If they run whatever they want regardless of whether it makes sense or not then the patch doesn't effect them one way or another. People that choose their gear based on logical reasoning now have less variety.

Hi hi.  i guess i'm one of those irrelevant people.  I have all weapons, minus a couple of event and closed beta things.  But using Top Tier weapons all the time, is boring.   I use was i think looks cool, and feels right to play with.    ..   Min-maxing is an odd way to play the game, and i won't disrespect those that do min-max,  So long as they understand, that not everyone plays the same as them, heck the majority of people don't min-max.   yet if they get paired with a Min-Maxer they aren't going to have fun and could leave the game, which would hurt Warframe and DE.  if all you have is a handful of min-maxers in game, then the game is dead, and going to be shut down before long,  But if you have thousands of different types of players, all coming and going, enjoying the game for the varity that is has, while giving the option to use anything they want, and not be forced to use certain things, then games grow.   

 

Its a sad day, when people force others to use certain gear, cause they deem it the best, and only will allow them to play if they use that gear.   Thats were alot of MMO's fail, even ones that oddly are still going.   Towards the end, you need certain gear to keep going, yet to get that gear you need to run certain missions that people say you need that very gear you are trying to get..   Yet if your late to game,  You can't find people to help you because you don't have that elite top gear.  

 

DE wants to give all weapons, and all frames a choice in all areas of the game.   Hence the reworks and revisits they have been doing.   They don't want to force people into a set loadout, they want people to find what they like and have fun with that set.

 

-edit- And they will do that by going with the majority of players, not the minority.    Its always good to appease the majority then the minority, cause it leads to more people being happy, and promote growth.   While if you did the reverse, and appeased the minority all the time, then the majority would leave.  Causing a downfall in structure, ecomotics, culture, social growth. etc etc.  

 

So be mad, that Syndicate mods aren't buffing EB anymore.  It was the correct choice to make, Mods that are Weapon Specific should not effect a warframe ability, nor grant it bonus abilities that it didn't already have.    

Edited August 22, 2015 by Tveoh

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Let's apply your logic then. Since it would be stupid to use anything other than the Dual Cleavers/Skana Varients/Maybe Jaw Sword for EB, since you'd be losing that extra 100% damage mod/Toxin damage, anyone who doesn't use them isn't maxing it to it's potential, so we'll ignore them. That leaves you with a choice of four to five melee weapons for optimizing EB.

 

Post-patch, the number of weapons that can optimally build EB will be increased to almost the entire pool of Melee Weapons, therefor, increasing the variety of the weapon you'll have on your back for EB.

 

Once again, Melee weapons themselves, unchanged. Only EB is changed, meaning the same variety for non-EB users remains completely intact, and EB can now run any of the dozens of weapons available since it will make no difference in the end.

 

Sounds to me like variety for EB users just went through the roof.

That assumes you didn't want a generic mod in place of Toxic Damage. Even so, 4 to 5 weapons is still greater than one.

 

No, post patch there is literally no reason to use anything other than the weapon that gives you the highest DPS outside of EB, because it will have the exact same effect on EB as everything else.

Hi hi.  i guess i'm one of those irrelevant people.  I have all weapons, minus a couple of event and closed beta things.  But using Top Tier weapons all the time, is boring.   I use was i think looks cool, and feels right to play with.    ..   Min-maxing is an odd way to play the game, and i won't disrespect those that do min-max,  So long as they understand, that not everyone plays the same as them, heck the majority of people don't min-max.   yet if they get paired with a Min-Maxer they aren't going to have fun and could leave the game, which would hurt Warframe and DE.  if all you have is a handful of min-maxers in game, then the game is dead, and going to be shut down before long,  But if you have thousands of different types of players, all coming and going, enjoying the game for the varity that is has, while giving the option to use anything they want, and not be forced to use certain things, then games grow.   

 

Its a sad day, when people force others to use certain gear, cause they deem it the best, and only will allow them to play if they use that gear.   Thats were alot of MMO's fail, even ones that oddly are still going.   Towards the end, you need certain gear to keep going, yet to get that gear you need to run certain missions that people say you need that very gear you are trying to get..   Yet if your late to game,  You can't find people to help you because you don't have that elite top gear.  

 

DE wants to give all weapons, and all frames a choice in all areas of the game.   Hence the reworks and revisits they have been doing.   They don't want to force people into a set loadout, they want people to find what they like and have fun with that set.

 

-edit- And they will do that by going with the majority of players, not the minority.    Its always good to appease the majority then the minority, cause it leads to more people being happy, and promote growth.   While if you did the reverse, and appeased the minority all the time, then the majority would leave.  Causing a downfall in structure, ecomotics, culture, social growth. etc etc.  

 

So be mad, that Syndicate mods aren't buffing EB anymore.  It was the correct choice to make, Mods that are Weapon Specific should not effect a warframe ability, nor grant it bonus abilities that it didn't already have.    

1. it wasn't the right choice.

2. if you don't care about min-maxing then the change had no effect on you.

[AkioKasai]

That assumes you didn't want a generic mod in place of Toxic Damage. Even so, 4 to 5 weapons is still greater than one.

 

No, post patch there is literally no reason to use anything other than the weapon that gives you the highest DPS outside of EB, because it will have the exact same effect on EB as everything else.

 

Wrong. If you're min-maxing post patch, you will never swing your Melee weapon as an EB user. You will use an Energy Restoration if you run out to keep up the massively superior damage EB has to offer over any Melee weapon in the game, making the weapon you equip completely irrelevant, and therefor, allowing you to equip any number of weapons.

 

If you're wasting time swinging your normal melee weapon as an EB built Excalibur, you're in that group of people who are irrelevant to you.

[Tveoh]

1. it wasn't the right choice.

2. if you don't care about min-maxing then the change had no effect on you.

Was the right Choice, and if it was put for a community vote, I would have voted to have those mods be removed.  

 

And to say the change has no effect on me.   Actually it does.   Now if I want to use my Excal, i can and not be harassed about not having a certain load out, to do the max damage with EB or even for not using EB all the time.    

 

I'm free to Play Excal, as I want to play him, without being belittled by people in random or recuirtted Sqauds..

[Huawxili]

so correct me if i'm wrong but before patch the weapons you could use was all the melee weapons and post patch less efficient to use certain weapons?

[p3z1]

I don't even.

 

Look, removing that +100% damage from specific weapons was a huge balance pass IMO. It limited your weapon choice to, like, 6 (cleavers series, skana series, jaw sword). While now you have a broader choice of melee weapons (almost all). Now EB still does it job with any weapon, as long as it has the same mods.

 

Now about this "limited to scindo prime only stuff," why bother with melee outside of EB, it is broken (parrying is a problem, high risk-low reward for some melee). You can just burn your 300+ energy then go back to shooting stuff. As much as I like to melee (especially with EB), melee still feels broken.

 

So, variety increased for EB, but melee still broken. Dunno how to fix it.

 

Edit: TBH people seem power hungry when they want to keep that +100% damage and heal + minor stat buff.

Edited August 22, 2015 by p3z1

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

so correct me if i'm wrong but before patch the weapons you could use was all the melee weapons and post patch less efficient to use certain weapons?

You are correct. Before the patch you could use any weapon.  Post-patch using a weapon with a syndicate augment makes the weapon less effective.