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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks for hanging out today -- I had a great time!

 

Here's how we're doing so far:

 

y3q5cac.png

 

Remarkably the average is nearly exactly the same -- that super-slow Lilith run is dragging it up. I also dredged through my log and got the average distance between dig-sites for each mission we did today -- they were all between 175-200m which is pretty ideal. Even the slow Lilith run was 174m which says to me maybe the reason it took so long was the tile with the elevator in it choking off spawns and preventing us from running two sites.

 

I'm looking forward to doing some more runs tomorrow!

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Gotta agree with the most recent Excavation Review. Haven't felt that much of a difference while playing. Aside from the slightly wider Excavator Spawns, I'm going at pretty much the exact same pace.

You run a lot less excavators at a time unless your team splits up. There's no more clusters. That makes it feel like it takes a lot longer to get to the same amount of cryotic with the changes, but it might just be perceptual and not actual. Don't know without timing it. There may have been longer running between sites pre changes that negated the time savings of clustered excavators. The times listed here seem close to pre changes. I have missed Glens streams due to football on Sundays, but I'm curious if they are splitting up or all staying together at a single excavator because that could make a huge difference in times.

And it seems when you get up to higher amounts of cryotic, closer to 2000, it seems like less power carriers spawn, as we have had problems running out of power frequently at higher cryotic. This is all on Heiricon. On the flip side having less power carriers means you and the excavators don't get one shot by them as for some reason they gave those power carriers sniper rifles, they hit like a Mac truck at higher levels.

Edited by weezedog
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You run a lot less excavators at a time unless your team splits up. There's no more clusters. That makes it feel like it takes a lot longer to get to the same amount of cryotic with the changes, but it might just be perceptual and not actual. Don't know without timing it. There may have been longer running between sites pre changes that negated the time savings of clustered excavators. The times listed here seem close to pre changes. I have missed Glens streams due to football on Sundays, but I'm curious if they are splitting up or all staying together at a single excavator because that could make a huge difference in times.

And it seems when you get up to higher amounts of cryotic, closer to 2000, it seems like less power carriers spawn, as we have had problems running out of power frequently at higher cryotic. This is all on Heiricon. On the flip side having less power carriers means you and the excavators don't get one shot by them as for some reason they gave those power carriers sniper rifles, they hit like a Mac truck at higher levels.

Based on how Glen's stream went and in my own personal playtime, it seems it's definitely mostly a perceptual thing. It isn't actually longer, but to some people it may feel like it is.

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Excavation Review Complete! We played every Excavation mission in the star-chart to 2000 Cryotic (ie: 20 dig-sites) and tracked how long it took us to do the complete mission.

 

Here's the data from last time:

 


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And the review we just finished:

 


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As you can see the average time per dig-site is actually slightly lower and if it weren't for that Lillith run being broken the average would have been a whole minute lower -- these changes have actually increased the reward-rate which wasn't what I was hoping for.

 

It did feel like there was a bit more difficulty which I think is great -- if you can run two dig sites you've earned a higher rate of reward -- but I still feel that the overall reward rate is much too high. Survival, which is probably the next most-rewarding mission, has exactly the same reward-table and gives you 1 reward every 5 minutes. Our average for Excavation was under a minute and a half per reward.

 

That's nearly 3.5x the rewards for the same amount of time! I'll be trying a few options over the next few days to try to balance this better -- compared to all of the other modes this just isn't fair.

 

Anyway, thanks again to everyone who helped out with this review -- it was a lot of fun and we found a few bugs along the way that are on my list. I'm already looking forward to the next stream!

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buff the survival instead. why we have to always get a nerf for the reward?. making the mode to be less rewarding is not what players are hoping for. If the reward is increased just change it back like excavation used to be. 

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buff the survival instead. why we have to always get a nerf for the reward?. making the mode to be less rewarding is not what players are hoping for. If the reward is increased just change it back like excavation used to be. 

 

And buff Defense, and buff Interception, and buff all the other game modes? No. This one is the exception.

 

If you check the stats I posted you'll see that it was already 3.5x faster -- the change made it marginally faster but it was already out of whack. 

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And buff Defense, and buff Interception, and buff all the other game modes? No. This one is the exception.

 

If you check the stats I posted you'll see that it was already 3.5x faster -- the change made it marginally faster but it was already out of whack. 

 

Defense in my opinion is just about the most perfect game mode so far, rewards skill (or mass nuking) to end rounds faster. Interception is good too, since that is 3 minutes if all 4 points are captures at once and maintained control, rewarding cooperative gameplay. Mobile defense is a bit iffy, feels more time consuming and monotonous than rewarding, especially any tower mobile runs. Survival has felt a bit time consuming, since it has always been more, hold out for 5 minutes, no skill really needed other than kill and not be killed, another more monotonous game mode. Always felt survival should be reduced from 5 minutes per reward to 4 minutes, making it effectively 16 minutes for a full rotation of rewards instead of 20 minutes, while increasing the scale rate and maybe increasing rare or harder enemy spawns.

 

Excavation has been a pretty high paced game mode, reaching harder difficulty at a much faster pace. it would be nice to keep that feeling in some way, while attempting to extend the their duration per reward. Maybe a greater risk and reward system. If possible, why not have some rooms drop multiple drills at once while increasing their excavation rates or something along those lines. And while having multiple spawn at once, mitigate the core drops in between spam feed and drip feed. Combining something like interception, mobile defense, and excavation like elements all at once? Just a drifting thought though.

Edited by kitsu
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I find that I could run excavations faster before the recent change but perhaps that is the intent, can't say I like the constant backtracking the newer version has. I would however be thrilled to see how the carousel does at Sortie level excavation with the current excavation state. I am interested in seeing if my personal opinion on running the sortie excavation in this state is shared by the forum and devs team or is the oddman out so-to-speak. Good luck in the missions.

Edited by Urlan
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This conclusion is @(*()$ insane.  

  

Yes excavation is the exception because it is arguably the only game mode that is worth playing on the star map. Rest you nerfed into the @(*()$ oblivion, so its painfully inefficient to play. It's really safer for one's mental health not to play rest of starmap at all than grind something there.  

  

First, let me remind you how every primed mod requires 528 cores to max. 1.5 minutes for 25% of getting 5 cores is 6 minutes on average for 5 cores more or less reliably. Unless you, Glen, think we are farming Power Throws or cash caches there, you should realize current Excavation is already about as rewarding as survival is (6ish minutes for reward vs exactly 5 for a reward) when you consider all rewards valuable when they actually aren't.  

 

Second, do you think your one run on every node is enough samples? Well, no, its not. Tilesets are very different and you can get insanely lucky maps every once in a while. And insanely inefficient spawns can be a thing too especially now that you made it so extractors spawn half the map away from each other.  

  

Third, you are using an organized group who is capable of splitting for extractors reliably. That's not how things happen in public games. To add to that, your entire group is capable of doing damage for entire 2000 cryotic run, which is also more often than not not the case in publics.  

  

Forth, drill stats don't scale at all so teams are either forced into defense frames or tons-of-cc-frames. When a single person doesn't pick optimally, entire group suffers. Welcome to public games again.  

  

Fifth, you are encouraging us to split from each other, so importance of individual player strength grows even more. It also theoretically takes away affinity gains from ally kills for obvious reasons.  

  

I doubt you will get the amount of backlash you deserve for excavation changes, but regardless you should stop treating players as enemies.

Edited by AkaiKuroi
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And buff Defense, and buff Interception, and buff all the other game modes? No. This one is the exception.

 

If you check the stats I posted you'll see that it was already 3.5x faster -- the change made it marginally faster but it was already out of whack. 

If you want to make the reward more balanced why don't you make the drop tables different for every mission type? Yes excavation is 3.5x faster. Then give excavation mission a reward tables that suit it. Make the excavation missions use a different rotation, not the A-B-C rotation that we have for every endless mission. 

This is my opinion on the rewards. A lot people farming in excavation nodes because you can get to repeat the cylce faster than any mission. You can introduce a different reward rotation for this type of mission. 

I know it is boring to see everyone farming excavation for cores/keys. The buff I said in my previous post is not giving the players double or triple reward for survival/defense/interception. Tweak the drop tables and it should be fine. in 30 minutes, survival will give you 4 rotation A, 1 rotation B, and 1 rotation C. and the rotation A from the survival is the same like excavation. That is why people avoiding playing survivals. Because the rewards are not worth the time that you spend.

The excavation mission already gives cryotic as a reward. Why not make it like this? You will get the additional reward (mods/cores/keys) for every 3-4 excavators. But make the drop tables consistant enough. So at the average, it will be the same just like survivals. 

Edited by crenian
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And buff Defense, and buff Interception, and buff all the other game modes? No. This one is the exception.

 

If you check the stats I posted you'll see that it was already 3.5x faster -- the change made it marginally faster but it was already out of whack. 

The problem is that the rewards for defense and interception and everything else are literally HORRIBLE.

 

The reason players go into either the void, or excavations is because they're literally one of the few rewarding things left in the game!

 

Look at the drop tables for these gamemodes. Seriously, look at them.

Most of these things? Once you have one, you're done, you literally never need another one ever again.

 

people go to interceptions because it's fun, it's mobile, and most of all, it's REWARDING.

 

If you make the game into even more of a massive grindfest, it's NOT going to make you gain platinum sales, it's going to make you lose players.

 

The other game reward tables are in a DESPERATE need of a buff. People /look/ for the lootcaves BECAUSE they CANNOT progress with the meager trickle of fusion cores and fusion energy they get through normal gameplay.

 

You don't want this game to be pay to win, yet as it stands, loot is being turned into something so FRUSTRATING to deal with, that your marketing guys are screaming ''Yeah, people will just buy plat to skip the grind!''

 

I've spent damn near 2000 dollars on your company over the years I've been playing, and this past year? I've been coming to /regret/ that, because of the direction I've watched ''rewards'' head in this game.

 

Don't FIX excavataion rewards, bring everything else in line with them, then you'll see players actually branching out and away from doing the same damn thing all day.

Edited by OfficerBeepsky
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And buff Defense, and buff Interception, and buff all the other game modes? No. This one is the exception.

 

If you check the stats I posted you'll see that it was already 3.5x faster -- the change made it marginally faster but it was already out of whack. 

The problem at this point, is perception.

In the player's minds, every non-excavation format has been receiving consistent nerfs to..well, everything, from droprate of items, to the enjoyability of hunting down the enemies. 

You're coming off of a month of, for lack of a better way to describe this metric, one positive occurance, the Fomorian disruptor event. 

At the same time, even if there hasn't been consistent nerfs to game modes, there's been the perception of nerfs.

Even though Banes are useful mods, it still feels like Baro has been lackluster for a month(and when you look at the math behind his potato sales, he's been in a spot BEYOND lackluster). 

Even though you guys are getting a large number of WF lets play's going on right now, there's a very...consistent, vocal, noticeable discussion of why you shouldn't get into the game due to the vagaries of the new player experience.  

There's just a lot of "playerbase VS. DE" feelings going around right now, and at the end of the day, a month+ of bug fixes, and...small buffs, combined with a month of gigantic, noticeable nerfs, and less-than-ideal loot? That's not fostering an enviroment that'll encourage long-term gameplay. 

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And buff Defense, and buff Interception, and buff all the other game modes? No. This one is the exception.

 

If you check the stats I posted you'll see that it was already 3.5x faster -- the change made it marginally faster but it was already out of whack. 

 

you are correct - this one is the exception. this is the one game mode that is unconditionally still worth playing. when I look at most of the other game modes (especially ones like exterminate, which were only recently ruined) I just feel a deep sense of apathy. unless I'm playing with some friends, I just don't care to play them at all. it isn't worth the time. sometimes even if I am playing with friends I still refuse to do some mission types because there is just too much frustration coming with any remnant of fun that may remain.

 

are you trying to drive away your players? you are literally sitting there contemplating how to make missions less fun (it doesn't take a psychology degree to know that decreasing rewards creates a proportional reduction in perceived enjoyment). every time you do this, you are building up to a breaking point. maybe current player statistics don't reflect it yet, but by the time they do, it will probably be too late to fix it. I'm not saying this as an attack. I like this game. I would just like it if you'd stop doing your best to cause harm to it.

Edited by Wyrmsilver
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And buff Defense, and buff Interception, and buff all the other game modes? No. This one is the exception.

 

If you check the stats I posted you'll see that it was already 3.5x faster -- the change made it marginally faster but it was already out of whack. 

I'm baffled actually.

 

You as a dev see the excavation (certain ones, I presume) as the ultimate lootcave that generates way more rewards than every other gamemode, comparing it to other modes like survival, defence, interception... that quite frankly, have been ruined over the course of the year, these modes not only offer lackluster rewards but are slower and can easily be done by spamming a single button for the duration of the game (and as far as I'm concerned, while nuking is prevalent in excavation, it's nowhere near as powerful as complete map wipes in other modes).

 

As a player, I see a lie, may I quote? "reduce the grind". Sounds familiar? Sure, we've got archwing defence that gives two targets to defend and offers two rewards per wave (while apparently taking twice as much time to finish while still being slow and tedious, it would've been completely unbearable if not for now nerfed Elytron and Itzal that can nuke all the spawns right away).

 

Survival, Defense, these modes are hardly worth the effort and time spent for the rewards I'm presented, but maybe I just need to be a newbie casual with the access to everything yet still really happy to even see the most common trash item?

 

Even extermination has been brutally murdered because DE's refused to change anything about affinity gain (seriously, Focus for the most part is absolutely awful a requires way too much work to get any results, again, little to no worthy reward for the effort) yet there was no problem with actually changing few minor things in the focus itself, like adding cap, buffing a handful of abilities that were changed from plain lies to upgrades that aren't even worth it (like Zenurik's efficiency "passive", one thing that's somewhat decent in Zenurik tree is actually energy overflow that might get nerfed if everyone at DE shares your mindset, as it's "way better than everything else given focus offers".)

 

I digress and vent off, but seeing how we are supposed to test the focus while being actively prevented from progressing in it makes me question DE's competence at times.

 

But hey, I'm just a tryhard player.

 

I want to ask you a question Glen, did you try to look at the stuff as a player, not a dev? Going with pubs instead of organized group of self-sufficient MR21s, changing "X is way better than everything else so X needs to be nerfed" to "everything else compared to X is absolutely awful so everything else should be buffed"? Because that "absolutely everything" that's compared to "x" has been consistently nerfed not to make it as appealing.

 

Obviously, you want to keep players playing, but at the same time 90% of the content in the game is single use and getting it N+1 time is nothing but annoying, value of the rewards doesn't increase with the effort.

 

Sure, it's just easier to nerf "one" thing that appears to be off, but the viability of modes isn't a flat line with one peak being excavation, it's a bumpy graph of valleys and hills, and if you brutally butcher excavation, people will simply migrate to another mode that results in best rewards per time spent. Then what, will everything be nerfed to the point where there are no rewards whatsoever?

 

Every time I see a change or addition to the game, I wonder: Who's this made for? What kind of a player do I need to be to actually enjoy it and consider it viable?

 

Don't get me wrong, I like this game, I've got so used to its quirks it's hard to leave it, you've got me addicted, but if such behaviour continues, I might be forced to leave. Sure, I'm just one out of few million players, but out of that millions of players there surely are people that share my opinion. I might not be full of hate as I leave, maybe regret, but the others? Not to threaten, but there might be a lot of bad PR from this.

 

I appreciate your work Glen, your attempts at making the game better, though as a player I consider your current conclusion to be fundamentally wrong, but maybe I'm just the greedy bastard that wants to get everything with no effort whatsoever.

 

tl;dr

As much as the statement that "excavation is superior to every other mode" is valid, I disagree with your solution, because as a player I consider excavation to be one of the few modes that's actually worth my time, as it is both fun and offers (or offered) decent rewards, compared to other endless modes that either are just dull in terms of gameplay, or don't offer rewards appealing enough to make it worthwhile.

 

I don't expect to get a legendary core every 20 minutes, though getting <5000 credit bundle after facing lv80 enemies is both disappointing and annoying.

 

Additionally, I would love if you were more transparent with everyone in terms of what you are doing, are going to do and/or why are you doing this, but maybe I just need to be a part of the Design Council to have access to such "sensitive" data?

Edited by Mofixil
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And buff Defense, and buff Interception, and buff all the other game modes? No. This one is the exception.

 

If you check the stats I posted you'll see that it was already 3.5x faster -- the change made it marginally faster but it was already out of whack. 

 

I am sorry to say this but if you really think that way then you must be insane, All your data is based on optimal conditions, you cant get good data by doing mission once, also you cant get good data by doing excavation with specific teams since most of time when playing with random people  you are unable to protect more then one excavator which makes mission MUCH slower, also this change made support frames unusable in excavation mission unless you do one excavator at time(since support frames cant support if team is all over the map) also this change nagativly affects getting void keys(not everyone goes to excavation missions for R5 cores you know.....) since of all the mission only excavation was giving keys at good pace, since doing other missions to get keys takes too long since the key we get depends on RNG and the reward we get from that key also depends on RNG(doing 30+ missions to get reward is NOT fun and you frequently have to do more then 30 excavation missions to get keys to be able to do void missions for rewards in the first place) and now you slowed down only mission that actually was giving keys at fair rate

Edited by Culaio
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