If Saryn Is Being Reworked Because Of Unhealthy 4 Spam, Why Does Mesa Exist.

[jfhsanseiIII]

If this is indeed true, then I'd be happy to see all those nasty 'apocalypse' buttons to go the way of the Do-Do. Just standing in one place spamming a single button without any real thought is dull. I mind equinox's day form ultimate less because it requires charging and can qualify as an actual Oh S#%$ button that is guaranteed to scale.

[(PSN)inuyasha279]

Mesa doesn't spam 4 like Sayrn. She activates it and uses it for a long time. Also you never saw a duration mesa?

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

I don't want to see Mesa get nerf'd either.

Maybe us Saryn fans should come up with what we want in a rework and hope we can steer DE that way

[hawker_mech]

You are kind of right, removing Saryns 4th would be stupid, even if they change it for something better and more acceptable.

[Tesseract7777]

The reason Mesa hasn't been reworked yet is because she is a much newer frame and they are reworking the older ones first. 

 

 

She will get her day in the sun to get an excellent rework, that will make her better than she is now, but we must be patient. Saryn, Valkyr and Volt are coming first, and there are still older frames that might be in line for rework before Mesa. 

[TheBrsrkr]

Sarum is being reworked because 3of her 4 abilities just aren't that useful.

(Inb4 someone telling me how THEY use her)

I mean, Molt is sorta useful but other than that.....

Miasma is just straight up better.

[Tundara]

I suspect what they'll do with Saryn is make it so Venom 'detonates' Molts if cast on them, perhaps creating a gas cloud effect, or an aoe damage like Miasma. Her 3 will probably become a toggle rather than duration type ability, but otherwise stay the same. Miasma could be changed to a cloud effect, or they might leave it alone. If they did change it so it was a cloud effect/duration based power, her slotting dynamics would practically reverse in regards to Duration. In that case, leaving her 3 unchanged could be best.

 

But that's all just speculation. *shrug* 

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

Saryn is being reworked into a melee based tank and her 4 is being removed for something else, thats completely ridiculous. 

[Soju.]

[(PSN)SancticuS]

I'm just sad all the constant NERF demands for various frames this time will cause my main frame to be reworked. The most vocal people from the screaming choir does not even play her nor do they know how to. All they see is Miasma at low to mid level and decide that "Oh boy is she overpowered"

 

I don't have high hopes for the rework and just want DE to be done with it so I maybe can go back to playing her so the "all knowing" non Saryn players can focus their rage on something else. Because they always have something to rage about....

[Skaleek]

This thread seems like a whole bunch of conjecture about saryn's rework in order to underhandedly suggest a mesa nerf. So to that i say, no thanks. People who keep calling for nerfs to frames in a co op game in which you have access to the frames yourselves are ridiculous.

[Haiova]

The salt is real here

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

I'm just sad all the constant NERF demands for various frames this time will cause my main frame to be reworked. The most vocal people from the screaming choir does not even play her nor do they know how to. All they see is Miasma at low to mid level and decide that "Oh boy is she overpowered"

 

I don't have high hopes for the rework and just want DE to be done with it so I maybe can go back to playing her so the "all knowing" non Saryn players can focus their rage on something else. Because they always have something to rage about....

DE should add 'IC' to the middle of their name.

[vaugahn]

co op game

 

There are many arguments that can be used when arguing against a nerf. This has never ever been one of them.

[Blakrana]

All we know is that there's Rework in line for Valkyr and Saryn, Valkyr's looking to be 'full package' with the new skin.

 

Personally, there's a number of things that could happen that would be interesting in both their cases, but until we get some Heads up Workshop posts for consideration...why stress out about it and carry on with business as usual?

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

Take all duration off of Saryn. Make them all power strength based. Make her number three a toggle. Make molt HP based (you can already recast it). Yesh!

And if I see a Mesa I hope I have the augment equipped to buff her with my poison.

[(PSN)EvilFlowerChild]

This thread seems like a whole bunch of conjecture about saryn's rework in order to underhandedly suggest a mesa nerf. So to that i say, no thanks. People who keep calling for nerfs to frames in a co op game in which you have access to the frames yourselves are ridiculous.

Couldn't have said it any better.

I doubt any of the people complaining actually play mesa..if they did they would know how useless peacemaker becomes in high level missions, she needs a buff if anything, but hey seems like all these "pro warframe players" only play <20lvl missions or lower. Where an unmodded and unraked warframe is OP too. Meh

[Oriviagene]

Lol why don't u just wait till it's implemented rather than saying something based on nothing?

[Zero118]

I'm just sad all the constant NERF demands for various frames this time will cause my main frame to be reworked. The most vocal people from the screaming choir does not even play her nor do they know how to. All they see is Miasma at low to mid level and decide that "Oh boy is she overpowered"

 

I don't have high hopes for the rework and just want DE to be done with it so I maybe can go back to playing her so the "all knowing" non Saryn players can focus their rage on something else. Because they always have something to rage about....

 

So instead of nerfing things... we should BUFF EVERYTHING, if everything is overpowered then it will be balanced, we will need stronger enemies too.

 

Make frames have like 10,000 unranked health, have huge destructive abilities and make enemies be swarms/stronger or both!

 

DE should add 'IC' to the middle of their name.

 

Then they can add destructible environments for the new op abilities to destroy!

[Skaleek]

There are many arguments that can be used when arguing against a nerf. This has never ever been one of them.

 

Says you? Great. You're wrong.

[Tesseract7777]

Why not argue why you think he is wrong? How does something being a coop game mean that there should be no balancing? Please do explain. 

[Eldnacpeek]

 

Says you? Great. You're wrong.

 

 

You honestly think just because it's a co op game, nothing should be nerfed? That's ridiculous. And then you just blatantly say "You're wrong." in rather a rude manner. Instead of arguing why he's wrong, you rudely imply he is the only one who thinks so, make a sarcastic remark, and straight up say he's wrong.

 

 

[Skaleek]

Sigh, because we're working together. Why do you care if Saryn can room clear with her four? or if Mesa can clear with her peacemaker? How does it hurt you? Does it ruin your gameplay experience because you feel like you aren't as special? as powerful?

 

Oh you want balance. Well, newsflash, there will never be a perfect balance, and instead of tearing frames down because you're salty, propose buffs to frames that under perform, and help the community as a whole. In a game where you are demi-godlike, why would you want to take away your ability to wield that power? The only thing i can think of is out of being petty, or because you don't have the frame, and don't want to farm it.

 

Mesa and Saryn are not endgame frames, because eventually you end up needing those CC/Invulnerability frames to continue in endless game modes. Go ahead and nerf trinity if you're salty about people lasting longer than you in pve, where those same people would probably have no issue with helping you achieve the same standard.

 

Take equinox and maim, for example, if you take her to a very low tier mission, she/he can kill everything in sight before you get a chance to shoot it. Does that make maim on the chopping block because at a specific level of gameplay he clears the room, not allowing other players to "have fun" and apply their own room clear mechanics? It's all relative, and that's why nerfing in Co-op games is stupid, because it leaves someone feeling like they got robbed.

 

PVP is an entirely different story and infinitely more difficult to balance.

 

As an added note, I'm not saying when things are grossly imbalanced and out of whack, nerfs arent called for, but are you guys honestly saying that peacemaker and miasma are SO over the top that they warrant nerfs? Cause i would have to disagree with that sentiment. But i think its clear that the community is rather divided on this topic, which means that there is no clear consensus on the skill being "too strong" or "overpowered", You get a vocal minority attempt at nerfs for what real reason? Balance, is what they say, but why? Why do you want balance, really? Ask yourself why am i asking this frame to get nerfed? Because you feel its unfair what other players are wielding, and you're either jealous, or petty. Neither of those are good reasons to nerf something.

 

If you can honestly tell me you believe the nerf is "good for warframe", then explain to me how it is? Because next week you will be here complaining about the new frame that is top dog at room clearing.

 

 

 

 

You honestly think just because it's a co op game, nothing should be nerfed? That's ridiculous. And then you just blatantly say "You're wrong." in rather a rude manner. Instead of arguing why he's wrong, you rudely imply he is the only one who thinks so, make a sarcastic remark, and straight up say he's wrong.

 

 

 

 

I answered in the same tone he asked me a question. Reasonable to say the least. The tone in which he stated his opinion as fact. I intended my response to be rude, because he said my argument was invalid without any reason or substance.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Skaleek

[Tesseract7777]

Well, I wouldn't say that Peacemaker needs a nerf, I would say it needs a change along with a buff. 

 

My personal issue with Peacemaker is that it takes the controls out of the players hands for an extended period of time and can be used for afk gameplay. But I also think the skill falls off way too hard in later levels and needs a buff in some form. 

 

See, when I talk about balancing it doesn't always mean nerf. And a change that isn't a buff doesn't always need a nerf. 

 

I understand where you are coming from, but balance has more to do with who gets how many kills. Lots of calculations have to go into balancing and it's complicated. You mentioned just buffing other frames if you think one is too OP, but that can contribute to an unbalanced form of power creep. And if broken enemy scaling isn't fixed it will just be putting a bandaid on a much bigger problem. 

 

Sometimes to balance things something else does have to be changed, not necessarily "nerfed". I think that word is thrown around a lot when what people really mean is a change to certain game mechanics. Nerf means weaken, and personally I want Peacemaker to be stronger. 

 

People can "feel robbed" but that's not a good reason not to make changes. Programmers have to make lots of complicated balancing acts to keep things working in a reasonable way. Is it balance if only a few frames are ever used? Is it balance if only a few combo's are ever used to the detriment of everything else? Yes, player choice is important, but it also means there is a balancing problem if most things are being excluded from something or just not used. From a game design perspective it's a problem if most of your classes are left by the wayside in any situation. 

 

For example, I personally don't like the way the raid is designed, because by design many frames are simply shut out for having no cc skills whatsoever. That is a balancing issue right there with the game, but it's much more complicated than simple buff/nerf. 

 

Also, saying things should never be nerfed in a co-op game isn't something I can get on board with. I get why people think some cry for nerfs way too often, and some of it is just whining. But some of it is from people who have all or most of the frames, and have or have had the ones that are being complained about, but think the way those frames skills currently work isn't good for the long term health of the game. Even in coop gameplay there are a lot of things a dev has to do for balance. It's not all cut and dried. 

Edited August 25, 2015 by Tesseract7777

[HalfDarkShadow]

Sigh, because we're working together. Why do you care if Saryn can room clear with her four? or if Mesa can clear with her peacemaker? How does it hurt you? Does it ruin your gameplay experience because you feel like you aren't as special? as powerful?

 

Oh you want balance. Well, newsflash, there will never be a perfect balance, and instead of tearing frames down because you're salty, propose buffs to frames that under perform, and help the community as a whole. In a game where you are demi-godlike, why would you want to take away your ability to wield that power? The only thing i can think of is out of being petty, or because you don't have the frame, and don't want to farm it.

 

Mesa and Saryn are not endgame frames, because eventually you end up needing those CC/Invulnerability frames to continue in endless game modes. Go ahead and nerf trinity if you're salty about people lasting longer than you in pve, where those same people would probably have no issue with helping you achieve the same standard.

 

Take equinox and maim, for example, if you take her to a very low tier mission, she/he can kill everything in sight before you get a chance to shoot it. Does that make maim on the chopping block because at a specific level of gameplay he clears the room, not allowing other players to "have fun" and apply their own room clear mechanics? It's all relative, and that's why nerfing in Co-op games is stupid, because it leaves someone feeling like they got robbed.

 

PVP is an entirely different story and infinitely more difficult to balance.

 

As an added note, I'm not saying when things are grossly imbalanced and out of whack, nerfs arent called for, but are you guys honestly saying that peacemaker and miasma are SO over the top that they warrant nerfs? Cause i would have to disagree with that sentiment.

 

I answered in the same tone he asked me a question. Reasonable to say the least.

 

Other then the second last statement regarding "nerfs" in a Co-op game, only because of the whole "powercreep" jargon I hear get thrown around alot; but it has legitimacy to it.

 

But anyways, it's hard to comment for me, I mostly use Zephyr and Mesa, but I don't really do those grindy parties and such, so the issues these players have, don't necessarily apply to me and other players as well in the same mindset. I mean, Mesa has a kickass and solid ability-belt, with my favourites being her 1st and 3rd, so it's not like she's a terrible frame or anything like that lol.

But eh, like I said I can't comment much on this, regarding the overuse of her 4th, since I don't normally use it to an extreme like others, and the parties I join who use her, also don't overuse it as much either (but that's obviously because I'm not doing interception missions to level up weapons all the time, and just do other things I enjoy lol).

 

But that's just me of course, so I see where others are coming from xD