Survival Balancing

[ViolettaFoxx]

I can't even solo a T2 Survival mission now because there's not enough PLS and Lotus is lazy with LSCs. I'm done playing any Survival mission now, this nerf was just too much.

Edited August 27, 2015 by ViolettaFoxx

[S7ORM]

I can't even solo a T2 Survival mission now because there's not enough PLS and Lotus is lazy with LSCs. I'm done playing any Survival mission now, this nerf was just too much.

Amen.

I stopped playing non-endless missions because they were over too quickly, or took too long for too few rewards.

I stopped playing Excavation because it's only on the Star Chart, not in the void.

I stopped playing Defense missions because the reward tables are absolutely horrible -- nobody wants Orokin cells from T4.

I stopped playing Survival because life support wouldn't spawn from dead enemies or the Lotus in reasonable amounts...

 

The only thing left to do is mess around outside of the Dojo and Relay walls.

Or... pick another game to play.

[Kronauer]

Tested and confirmed:

 

This is not a survival nerf, this is a Nekros buff!!!! :D

 

(25 minutes solo T2 survival, didn't touch any LSC and life support was always above 70%. I could've done more, but it was testing)

Edited August 27, 2015 by Kronauer

[FaiTh_LoneWolf]

Amen.

I stopped playing non-endless missions because they were over too quickly, or took too long for too few rewards.

I stopped playing Excavation because it's only on the Star Chart, not in the void.

I stopped playing Defense missions because the reward tables are absolutely horrible -- nobody wants Orokin cells from T4.

I stopped playing Survival because life support wouldn't spawn from dead enemies or the Lotus in reasonable amounts...

 

The only thing left to do is mess around outside of the Dojo and Relay walls.

Or... pick another game to play.

 

Agree 100%

[S7ORM]

Tested and confirmed:

 

This is not a survival nerf, this is a Nekros buff!!!! :D

 

(25 minutes solo T2 survival, didn't touch any LSC and life support was always above 70%. I could've done more, but it was testing)

Because Nekros definitely needed to be more reliant on Desecrate than before, didn't he?

What we needed was Desecrate changed to something less intrusive on playing him, not a change that makes him required in Survival missions again.

[FelisImpurrator]

it must be mandatory that Players engage the Enemies. PLS isn't exactly a gift from heaven, but it fills those shoes at this point.

if something else (hopefully better) filled those shoes, great. but this is what we have right this moment.

-

i'm confused. you recognize that Excavation doesn't ever fail you for not doing your Objective (the entire point of the Game Mode), so you effectively can't ever lose, but you want Survival to be that way on purpose?

I'm actually considering "enemies restore a fixed amount of LS on kill", suggested earlier on... and it isn't sounding bad, honestly. Are there any problems that would cause?

 

Also, again, I'm not entirely sure about the necessity of hard fail states. Or... no, wait. I'm trying to look at this another way, and. What if part of the problem with fail conditions is not whether they exist or not, but how they work? Mission failure in this game is mostly all or nothing. What if they implemented the common suggestion of making people keep the rewards they had up to that point, success or fail, but A) the key, if any, would be consumed; and B) bonus XP would probably be halved - possibly also halve resource drops and credits? Or else there should be more conditions like the one in Survival (at least when it works...) where you can still salvage the mission somehow.

 

That said, in Survival and Excav... some people love having an all-you-can-kill mission type that can't be failed. Others don't. I wonder if there's a way to do both of those things and make them equally viable choices.

The only thing left to do is mess around outside of the Dojo and Relay walls.

Or... pick another game to play.

Or wait maybe a week until they resolve the survival issue. Or take a break - temporary - and do that something else until U18, then come back to check out the starchart. I'd be playing other games more... if I didn't still have piles of stuff to do here.

[Zagrax]

At the end of the day, my favorite version of survival was the one on survival weekend when the strun wraith first came out.

[GhostLacuna]

I could not last 10 minutes in a solo t1 survival...

 

No not because i could kill i could not find enough enemies to kill nor could i get PLS to drop. I had to pop all LS as fast as they where spawning and i still could not even keep it over 40%  at 09:52 i had to pop a LS to bump it up to 40% so i could even extract.

 

So far this change has killed survival for me.

 

I am all for tweaks DE and i understand this is not the final version of Survival in the game but i have to wonder how many solo runs you did to tests this out?

 

Because even before this change keeping enough LS was much harder in solo play then in a group. 

[Pyrosicle]

This is a very bad change! I can no longer solo void survival, because I run out of all available life support.

 

You have to be with a team in order to have enough enemies to provide enough mini life supports in order to survive. Which would be fine to me, if I didn't have the extremely annoying problem of disconnecting from host every game.

[Khunvyel]

but the problem, is that Players need to be forced to deal with Enemies. if they don't have to Kill Enemies, the more Experienced Players just won't. they'll run around(or just as if not more likely, go AFK in a corner) invulnerable and the only Enemies they'll Kill will be the most impeding ones, like Nullifiers. they won't bother Killing anything else because they don't need to.

 

"Deal with". Absolutely correct phrasing on your end. "Deal with". Not kill, or even engage.

 

Why do people HAVE to be forced to kill all the time? Why can't they instead get the choice of not to? All those spy mission runs, with zero detection, only stealth kills when it cannot be avoided and all that with a Warframe that doesn't even have a stealth ability... all that means you're not being forced to KILL. But you still have to DEAL with the enemy. I don't have a problem with players not killing hostiles when they don't have to. The only thing that really requires this as mission objective is Exterminate.

 

Anyway, in my suggested scenario, you have to well deal with the enemies because you cannot survive on lotus oxygen capsules alone if you want to go past 5 minutes. You also have to deal with them in order to hack the consoles, because you need breathing room as there would be only so many "hidden" oxygen tanks around. I'm definitely not claiming that my idea is the only one that works. I like reading other people's ideas and sure like a lot of them. And surely enough other people will say that a set of Lokis is going to easy-mode-faceroll my proposed suggestion without issues. So what? First, there are limits of what 4 perma-steatlhing Lokis can do, but there are also a great bunch of things they CAN do surprisingly well with little risk. Maybe it is better to not call out "we can't do this or that because Frame X and Z will make this facerollingly easy." Sounds more like the Warframe selection is just as big a culprit as the game modes on the line.

 

I'm also not claiming my idea is perfect :D Originally, I just wanted to get rid of the deadlocking of my character when activating a capsule and still do. That is honestly all I really wish for in Survival mode. It can only get better than the existing Survival mode.

 

 

i'm confused. you recognize that Excavation doesn't ever fail you for not doing your Objective (the entire point of the Game Mode), so you effectively can't ever lose, but you want Survival to be that way on purpose?

I know that Excavation can never fail. I also never said that I LIKE that Excavation has no fail state :) The reason why I like Excavation is that by default it is a lot less reliant on randomness than player skill. Power cells are dropped in abundance. The Excavators can be reasonably well defended, and I'm really glad they got rid of the invulnerable Scanner. That alone makes Excavation a lot more enjoyable than Survival ever was. For me.

 

I would love to have a fail state for Excavation, I really, really do. And no cryotic for destroyed harvesters. But I also like that Excavation is less RNG dependant than Survival. Even if it had a fail state that if X Excavators are destroyed the mission would fail, I would STILL like it more than current Survival (and previous) Survival.

[Rakosta_Kai]

I had a chance to run a simple solo survival. Don't remember how far I got as it was obvious by the 10 minute mark that it wasn't enjoyable.

 

Not fun...

 

Too much running for too little overall gain... Mobs seemed to drop PLS capsules the most in transit areas between LS areas provided they weren't in the same room.

 

The percentage seemed to tick down a lot faster at above 50% and PLS capsules seemed to drop a lot less and do less in general (in keeping with the proposed changes)

 

Mod drops (of any kind) were dismal.

 

I had already mostly stopped messing with Survival due to opportunity cost issues with the mod as-is (took too long to get decent loot)

 

Now it's a scenario where it takes even more much scurrying, scuffling, and struggling PLUS that time component for a CHANCE at decent loot.

 

That's not fun, imo.

 

That's my feedback... ymmv.

[[DE]Rebecca]

Today (or tomorrow's) hotfix will have fixes to speak to a number of bugs/issues with Survival. Hoping to get it out ASAP!

[TerrorofDeaths]

Bring back old survival with when update 17 come thats all i have to say

and Dev please increse heavy enemy spawn or regular enemy spawn

more enemy more fun

more killing

[S.T.M.P.D]

Today (or tomorrow's) hotfix will have fixes to speak to a number of bugs/issues with Survival. Hoping to get it out ASAP!

What exactly does that entail? Rolling back the nerf? Making Desecrate no longer affect PLS (I gaurantee you'll get positive feedback from this)? Altering spawn rates? Altering the mapmaking system? Putting survival in Defense maps as was suggested by several older players? Making there only be one pod availible at a time?

Perhaps a much larger 2.0 level rework is needed? Altering objectives so they're a little more horde-mode-y, like killing elite enemies and surviving bosses? Adding Survival exclusive tiles that force players to stick together or die? Changing the rotations to ABCABC instead of AABC? Rebalancing the drop tables?

C'mon. This is a game in development. Things will go so much smoother if you communicate with us players.

[Shiichibukai]

What exactly does that entail? Rolling back the nerf? Making Desecrate no longer affect PLS (I gaurantee you'll get positive feedback from this)? Altering spawn rates? Altering the mapmaking system? Putting survival in Defense maps as was suggested by several older players? Making there only be one pod availible at a time?

Perhaps a much larger 2.0 level rework is needed? Altering objectives so they're a little more horde-mode-y, like killing elite enemies and surviving bosses? Adding Survival exclusive tiles that force players to stick together or die? Changing the rotations to ABCABC instead of AABC? Rebalancing the drop tables?

C'mon. This is a game in development. Things will go so much smoother if you communicate with us players.

They communicate alot more than other developers already so yea lol 

[Tesseract7777]

What exactly does that entail? Rolling back the nerf? Making Desecrate no longer affect PLS (I gaurantee you'll get positive feedback from this)? Altering spawn rates? Altering the mapmaking system? Putting survival in Defense maps as was suggested by several older players? Making there only be one pod availible at a time?

Perhaps a much larger 2.0 level rework is needed? Altering objectives so they're a little more horde-mode-y, like killing elite enemies and surviving bosses? Adding Survival exclusive tiles that force players to stick together or die? Changing the rotations to ABCABC instead of AABC? Rebalancing the drop tables?

C'mon. This is a game in development. Things will go so much smoother if you communicate with us players.

 

Just because they don't tell you everything they are planning to do exactly, before they have even done it, doesn't mean they don't communicate. 

 

They've already communicated way more than most companies game devs would in this thread alone. And they are listening to the feedback in this thread and promptly making more changes to please us. 

 

What more can we ask for than that? I know a lot of us have ideas we think are great and I wish everyone could be perfectly pleased, but realistically DE can't use all or even most of people's ideas because a lot of them contradict each other/or don't fit with their game vision. They are communicating and listening. That's what this thread is all about! 

[FrostBittenHero]

Good to know a hotfix is coming.  ODS was almost impossible to complete for long duration because of the spawns and LS drop rates.

 

I trust you guys to fix well.

 

WELL

[Vargras]

C'mon. This is a game in development. Things will go so much smoother if you communicate with us players.

They already do this on a daily basis, and far more frequently than the vast majority of other developers.

 

Chill.

[-Aza-Gorod-]

i dont know if this happend to any other frost users but in the void on t1 survival it crashed after loosing sound when i used snowglobe

[Dualstar]

Today (or tomorrow's) hotfix will have fixes to speak to a number of bugs/issues with Survival. Hoping to get it out ASAP!

Anything to say about suggestions in this thread? Or do we have to try and wring it out of you in Fridays AMA or next weeks devstream?

Edited August 27, 2015 by Dualstar

[(XBOX)xXx STR1FE xXx]

I had a feeling Survival would end up changing eventually...

 

Ok, well first off, I am a VERY serious and hardcore Survival runner. My Clan and I have literally based the existense of my Clan based off of Survival, because it is what we are good at. It's what we dominate at in the most. My input for this topic is going to be a bit long winded, but regardless, I hope you all over at Digital Extremes pay close attention to my comments.

 

Here we go.

 

 

Alrighty, so on to my first point.

If their is going to be a refined and polished version of Survival (or any endless mission) at any point in time during the game, the first prioroty that needs to be taken care of is the drop table. When i say this, I mean, you need to be able to have higher chances of getting the harder items after the first full rotation. I am not saying you guys aren't already working on this, however, this is a very important and relative concern from a LOT of players, including me and my Clan. I am sure you guys are working on it in your busy and productive schedules.

 

 

 

My second point.

Although I do agree that their is far too much extra LS laying around all the time, I DO NOT agree that it should be nerfed for the long run. If your like me or anyone in my Clan, we try our best to go just as long as we can. When you get to an hour in a Tower Survival, your LS is going to seriously start getting lower at a faster rate because the enemies are getting harder to kill, which equals less PLS drops at a faster rate, even with a Pilfdroid or Nekros. There has to be a way to compensate for those wanting to go as long as possible, providing they have the actual skill for it. Surely, you guys aren't trying to make it to where it is almost impossible to get to 90 minutes in a survival now? I really hope not.

 

 

 

My third point.

TEAMWORK and Life Support management are going to NEED to be implemented in some kind of way. If your squad members break off and think "Oh, everythings fine...", they either go *SPLAT* or they are gone for the rest of the game. I usually only run survival with my Clanmates, but when I'm running with potential recruits or randoms, they almost immediately grab a life support within the very first second it comes in, either as trolls or as new players unaware of the mechanics. If they don't do that, they camp at it, waiting for it to come in, and then grab it immediately. Maybe Lotus can say a friendly message before you start the alarm or immediately after, stating "Remember, I will give you a heads up when you need another capsule. Do NOT waste them."

Another suggestion could be to go into great detail about each mission type in the tutorials for new players. (I'm aware the codex does this). Hell, maybe put a helpful specific mission type message in the ship loading screen before you load in. You know, something for that specific mission type your going into?

 

As I said though, something will need to be done to keep everyone closer together.

 

 

 

My last point.

Camping needs to be dealt with. I myself have done my fair share of camping and it ultimately shows no skill whatsoever in the match. It only shows you know how to watch a timer and pull a trigger. When you get to a certain time limit in any Survival mission, once you leave that tunnel or corner your backed up in, you are doomed. I have personally been taking more to the team staying in the same room (general area) just staying mobile and actually being badass ninjas that are precise and swift with every action, power, shot, roll, jump and attack. I can't say I have a good suggestion of what to do here, but camping really needs to be taken care of. You should make it to where you are still able to hold up if need be, but change the spawns for those camping in a small, general area. Slow it down or send less enemies out or something.

 

 

 

 

Maybe my suggestions aren't the best, but that's my feedback.

Edited August 27, 2015 by (XB1)xXx STR1FE xXx

[taiiat]

Why do people HAVE to be forced to kill all the time?

because without being forced to Kill Enemies, Survival has no opposition. no challenge.

if there's no point in actually Killing anything, the path of least resistance is to not. and then get Rewards without putting in any Effort to speak of.

being Invisible isn't the only possibility, cycling Invulnerability also is.

- - - - -

okay, i understand. though rather than a fixed value being destroyed, i may lean more towards X in Y time frame. so if you're wasting too many of Lotus' machines, she tells you to go away. cut yer losses.

since Excavators are critical to having Enemies Spawn in the Mission, once that happens, all there is to do is collect the remaining l00t and leave. no more Enemies, no more Objectives.

this is a very lenient Fail State, IMO(since you get to keep everything you've gotten so far). but it is a Fail State.

[Twistedsparkle]

did a bunch of survival today solo and with friend
:/ again Im having trouble getting LS drops from enemies :(
DE please can you adjust the drops being more reliable and not pure RNG?

also can you please consider adding alarm sound and add visual cue when approaching zero Life support
would add quality of life a bunch

[FelisImpurrator]

They've already communicated way more than most companies game devs would in this thread alone. And they are listening to the feedback in this thread and promptly making more changes to please us. 

Also, Rebecca alone has a backlog a month long. I shudder to think of the sheer volume the entire team has to deal with daily.

[--MZez--]

Today (or tomorrow's) hotfix will have fixes to speak to a number of bugs/issues with Survival. Hoping to get it out ASAP!

thank you alot :)