Survival Balancing

[-InV-igo95862]

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At least it would be easy to get in to survival squads of cause if you want to pay with your 3 key on keyboard and your sanity.

Edited August 26, 2015 by igo95862

[cobra302]

...

unfortunately, this makes Greedy Pull a new path of least resistance. never have to leave the safe zones.

and aside from that, in order for such a thing to work, the safe zones need to be quite sizable, like, 100 Meter Radius.

if Players are specifically forced to not be able to move, that forces everyone to play Survival like a Facebook game. we don't want to do that.

...

 

Sorry but I don't understand your explanation. Greedy Pull Mag is always the same regardless of mission; be it defense or survival or mobile defense. I agree that the safe zones would be large. They should be large enough to allow the players to move but not so large that players can scatter to the four corners of the mission. Think of the Life Support Capsule coverage area as a way to encourage focusing on a smaller area rather than wandering all over the map while also ensuring that players move and don't simply camp the same spot for 60 minutes. How detrimental the effect of being outside of the current active Life Support Capsule coverage area could vary with mission level or enemy level or time in mission. There are many ways to adjust the idea both dynamically and initially which I think make it viable enough for consideration and discussion.

[perfectStranger]

Bad idea, we'll end up needing nekro again like before

Also isn't this game enough frantic?
I was thinking about it yesterday that the dumb horde haunting us in survival remembers me those hilarious and very crowded moments in Serious Sam, can't this game get more tactical and less a massively spam of "i'm here to die" mobs?

[NeptunePH]

WHY? Survival was the most fun mode before this nerf?  I haven't tried it post nerf, but why are you making this more about micromanaging LS and dealing with RNG than, you know, actually surviving and having fun shooting dudes?

 

WHY NOT JUST HAVE EVERY ENEMY KILLED GIVE YOU BACK A SET PERCENTAGE OF AIR INSTEAD OF HAVING AIR REGULATED BY RNG BS?!

THIS THIS AND THIS

 

Survival was fun. but now, its not anymore.

[Manelag]

I seriously have to to ask, who greenlights stuff like this?

This isn't a "Balance Change" this is a straight up nerf, nothing was buffed just nerfed.

 

But hey, it's okay we can just use more Keys right?

Who even likes more then 20 Minutes runs anyway, bloody hell.

 

Edited August 26, 2015 by Manelag

[WildBastion]

Yeah not really a balance change.... I mean how is this balance? How was it broken?

 

Whether you camp or run around, your playstyle should not be squashed out. Seriously.

 

I love that person's idea earlier that put forth the idea of there being no air % and its just you have a set amount of time to make it to the next pod, where there is only one pod at a time. Hell you could even make the pods put up a sphere of air around them where you are able to breathe, and outside the pod it would act like the open space sections on eris....  that would be one hell of a motivation.... (I would make it do damage a bit quicker though, to promote panic lol)

 

 

Also, greedy mag should be put back the way it was, and the reasons why people do the whole draco farm/camp thing should be addressed:

 

The weapon system taking as long as it takes Vor to shut the hell up after dying.  

 

A simple fix for THAT (the weapon not vor >_>) problem is to make it where forma's do not drop your weapons rank to 0 when you use them. Either it could take 10-15 ranks off for each forma you put on, OR EVEN BETTER, the affinity needed to rank a weapon to 30 could be increased by maybe 300-400% and then forma's don't reset rank at all. This option would make it feel REALLY good when you finally get a weapon to 30, and would end the stupid part of the grind: where your weapon is literally useless cause it has no mods on it.

 

Btw I know this is a free-to-play game, and they use the grind to make money, but guess what? Your money can only get you 2x the Affinity rate and that lasts for like a week. Its not like this is HUGE or something, making players grind like mad just to re-level something is just annoying, not engaging, especially when done four or five times on the same weapon. You cannot use plat to rank your weapon to 30 instantly, you cannot use your plat to force a drop in a void mission, etc.

 

Please, dont forget:

The grind/f2p argument is useless for any discussion here, really. The only money they get from the grind is the plat you spend to 2x the various aspects, and the drop chance one is sorta useless as its not hard to get mats, and if you are impatient and finish your foundry items faster. I've spent 75% of my plat (almost entirely purchased, not traded) on more slots for my 50-70 weapons and to have ALL the frames. lol

[Egg_Chen]

Oh GG DE, you have surpassed yourselves!

What is the point in Glen (supported by dedicated Tenno who don't get paid!) fixing the spawning, if you guys are just going to neuter the gamemode?

 

T2Surv solo, barely made 20 minutes, killed just under 600 enemies.

 

I was killing fast enough with a 5 Forma Braton P and a 3 Forma Frost P that could kill whole swathes of low level enemies with Ice Wave.

Enemies were falling as soon as I spotted them, averaging a kill every 2 seconds.

 

Repeat: Just shy of 600 kills in 20 minutes, and I never would have made 25 minutes.

 

In case anyone says "Hur dur it is a co-op game" the spawning is far more reliable in solo without teammates spreading all over the map.

I could go to 40 minutes before on any Tower Survival and although it got tight for air, being in danger from enemies was the risk, not RNG.

 

Did you test this?

Without Nekros or Pilfroid?

Edited August 27, 2015 by Egg_Chen

[Cryozen7]

I never liked survival.

Survival and excavation are like cousins in how they play (endless missions with enemies getting stronger).  That I like.  And honestly excavation is one of the endless game modes I prefer doing.

The main difference is excavation is akin to an endless mobile def (except for the part where you need to power the thing).  I don't want to be forced to leave because enemies would not spawn and Lotus was trying to deal with the over influx of consigned kuberows instead of throwing LS at the map.  I want to leave because I think it is getting too dangerous to stick around.  In the case of excavation: it's too dangerous to stick around and they blew up 3 excavators in a row

Survival should be frantic running around, your goal is to cause chaos while another Tenno steals things (Tower spy mission would be interesting and in a big picture kind of way adds to immersion).  But the entire system of life support is bad.  Once you hit 0% there is no way to salvage it.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
Survival should not fail because you hit 0%

I don't survival much so I don't have opinions on drop rates for PLS.  But if we could salvage a mission by activating a life support cap, I would like survival so much more.

For endless missions I am a believer of you leave because the enemy is too strong.  Survival as of right now is not that.  It is leaving because RNG is too strong.

Lotus should still deliver capsules after 0%, the drain on shields and health should remain there, and reactivating life support should stop that drain.

Of course you don't just want a trinity to be continuously healing people while still getting rewards.  That would certainly be "surviving" but think of the operative that won't be due to oxygen deprivation.

So instead the reward timer should be paused, and Lotus would deliver an "emergency" life support to a random place on the map.  Until the emergency LS is hit, the reward timer stops and drain would continue.  That would actually encourage frantic scrambles for the life support.

Assuming normal LS was still on the field, I don't know.  I would keep them there but I really would like to disable them until the emergency life support was hit.

I personally think PLS should still drop.  The emergency life support could say have a base of 15% LS, which with each PLS picked up would increase the amount added.

TLDR;

You should be able to salvage a survival mission after you hit 0%.  The above is my opinion on what I personally think would be an interesting way to execute it.

 

This is not a perfect idea, and there are other great ideas

 

I liked this one.

 

My proposed changes:

1)The whole level is constantly being drained (like in hive missions).

2)Enemies don't drop life support at all.

3)There is only one Lotus capsule active at any given point in time.

4)Every capsule provides 30 seconds of the tile it's in not being drained.

5)Once it is used up Lotus will beam another capsule into the level and the team has to make its way there.

6)The AI will frequently try to lock the team in and block doors in the teams path.

 

This should:

1)Make the teams movement as a unit more purposeful and mission-oriented.

2)Make teams less dependent on Oxyfarm-frames.

3)Create more tension and atmosphere.

 

And another one proposed that the LS acted as heaters on europa.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Speddy54

[taiiat]

You should be able to salvage a survival mission after you hit 0%.

what Objective Failure state would you replace that with, though?

if you remove that, there is no longer an Objective Failure.

[Cryozen7]

what Objective Failure state would you replace that with, though?

if you remove that, there is no longer an Objective Failure.

 

 

So instead the reward timer should be paused.

 

Death also comes to mind.

 

As I said I personally think leaving a mobile endless mission should be based on you concluding that you cannot beat the odds.  I see the concern but look at excavation.  The fail is the excavator being destroyed but you don't necessarily get booted out the mission as a result.  Instead you suck it up and let 12 more blow up.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Speddy54

[Snowmotion]

So, unless I'm doing this entirely wrong, by the numbers:

 

Six seconds reduced to Four seconds is 1/3rd of the personal life support's yeild removed, 33.3% less.

Combined with 10% reduced drops, that's 66.6% * 0.9, that gives us 59.94.

That means this tweak adds up to a 40% personal life support nerf.

 

I honestly can't see this fostering the outcome you claim to be aiming for, as there's a divide in the mindset between testers told "we're aiming for a more organic and fast paced experience with survival, where we hunt down life support to buy ourselves precious seconds" while to those who were not in on this, it comes across as "Good news Tenno, you're getting 40% less air!"

 

 

I have no suggestions that do not echo those others have made, bar perhaps changing the way survival flows, so that every five minutes the room you were in goes into lock down and seals itself off after thirty seconds - those inside it extract, those that flee to another room continue their battle against the enemy.

Once locked down the room's unloaded, and another connecting room is added ready for the next move to permit the 'endless' gameplay to continue as long as the players are able to survive the ever increasing threat - if the players manage to wall themselves in with locked down rooms, they've effectively forced their own extraction.

[BluelitHalo]

These nerfs screw over run-n'-gunners more than campers.  I urge you guys to reconsider how Life Support works to enhance the mode, like what Dualstar suggested, or scrap it entirely for some new Survival 2.0 mechanic.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Sonitorum

[taiiat]

look at excavation.

Excavation lacks a true fail state as well. Enemies will continue to go up in Level, but quite slowly.

therefore there isn't really any risk. death isn't a failure state. you have Objectives. failing to do those, is a failure state. it's what you're supposed to be doing.

you can die anywhere, it's not an objective because it's universal to all Game Modes.

the only Game Mode where death is a direct failure state, is Extermination. where Killing Enemies is the only thing you're there for. Capture technically fits into this as well, since the Capture Target is 'just a special Enemy'.

dying in another Game Mode is not a failure to complete your Objectives, it's death.

in another game where Players weren't so Overpowered and therefore Enemies were balanced much better, death could be a failure state. but in Warframe death is not all that uncommon due to the concatenated problems with balancing.

every five minutes the room you were in goes into lock down and seals itself off after thirty seconds - those inside it extract, those that flee to another room continue their battle against the enemy.

Once locked down the room's unloaded, and another connecting room is added ready for the next move to permit the 'endless' gameplay to continue as long as the players are able to survive the ever increasing threat - if the players manage to wall themselves in with locked down rooms, they've effectively forced their own extraction.

sounds interesting. i could see that working. since the past rooms would be closed, it makes it a lot easier to dump things out of memory. Edited August 27, 2015 by taiiat

[MumblesMcphatty]

If a timely reversion is not on the cards - you must increase the spawn rates for solo. 

 

The game mode is basically a waste of time without using Nekros now - reaching 20 mins is certainly a challenge.

 

Sadly that challenge has nothing to do with being overtaxed or struggling to, ya know, SURVIVE - its most definitely not frantic - just annoying. 

 

I can appreciate that DE may want to make reaching 40mins harder or even impossible - but making the whole mission type pointless in the process?

Edited August 27, 2015 by MumblesMcphatty

[[DE]Rebecca]

Firstly, sarcastic bashing among each other and DE is out of place. It is harmful to all levels of discussion that I can see. 

 

Secondly, I went Solo vs 2 Person testing relatively casually (T3 Void + ODS), and there is certainly credence in the 'Solo being way harder' claims (at least in my limited experience this evening). 2 Person T3 Void Survival did not leave us starving for O2 in the slightest. Our lack of Corrosive Projections and 'end game loadouts' on my end was our real weakspot and reason for departure.

.

ODS Solo on the other hand is a different story - thirsty Nyx Prime was thirsty. 

 

Lastly, this isn't the end of these changes. Please observe directly in the OP that 'We'd love to hear your feedback and will continue to test and tweak if needed.' Rest assured Survival is a passionate topic inside and outside DE walls. 

[S.T.M.P.D]

Firstly, sarcastic bashing among each other and DE is out of place. It is harmful to all levels of discussion that I can see.

Secondly, I went Solo vs 2 Person testing relatively casually (T3 Void + ODS), and there is certainly credence in the 'Solo being way harder' claims (at least in my limited experience this evening). 2 Person T3 Void Survival did not leave us starving for O2 in the slightest. Our lack of Corrosive Projections and 'end game loadouts' on my end was our real weakspot and reason for departure.

.

ODS Solo on the other hand is a different story - thirsty Nyx Prime was thirsty.

Lastly, this isn't the end of these changes. Please observe directly in the OP that 'We'd love to hear your feedback and will continue to test and tweak if needed.' Rest assured Survival is a passionate topic inside and outside DE walls.

This changes nothing. For god's sake just cut the PLS or make it so that loot-garnering abilities don't affect them, or make the even more severe tweaks people are talking about if you feel like it, but c'mon.

And this is interesting: Corrosive Projection is a mod you need? C'mon, guys. You know it's a problem, we know it, so where the hell is a scaling rework?

I don't mean to be rude, maybe I'm not taking into account the fact that one needs that extra oompah-pah from PLS, but the idea always seemed too counterintuitive to a gamemode that's supposed to keep you moving, because if you can kill enough people fast enough you can replace teamwork with killing ability.

Edit: People seem to generally regard the change as negative - I can see why. Why don't we just revert this, make it so that Desecrate and Pilfering Swarm doesn't affect PLS, and agree that scaling 2.0 needs to happen. Nothing will save this game short of a rework.

Edited August 27, 2015 by S.T.M.P.D

[FoxyKabam]

I have no suggestions that do not echo those others have made, bar perhaps changing the way survival flows, so that every five minutes the room you were in goes into lock down and seals itself off after thirty seconds - those inside it extract, those that flee to another room continue their battle against the enemy.

Once locked down the room's unloaded, and another connecting room is added ready for the next move to permit the 'endless' gameplay to continue as long as the players are able to survive the ever increasing threat - if the players manage to wall themselves in with locked down rooms, they've effectively forced their own extraction.

I would love to play that

[Tesseract7777]

I appreciate the official response! It seems clear this is hardly the end of survival changes. They are testing new ideas and will continue to tweak. Let's not get angry about the changes, but instead just explain what we think can be done to make it better! 

 

My thoughts: If the goal is to get us to use the life support modules more often instead of just picking up LS from mobs, and people are saying the decrease in LS/LS amount from mobs is making it hard to get enough period, perhaps we could increase the amount of LS we get from the Life Support Module activation? Like, what if it gave us 40% instead of 30%? Just throwing the idea out there. People would have more LS total around to stay in mission, but they would be more encouraged to run around using the life support modules. 

Edited August 27, 2015 by Tesseract7777

[wtrmlnjuc]

While the general idea works, it's quite tight on requiring you to kill and get life support. Needs just a little bit more leniency. Also, spawns need to be fixed. When spread out, the map sometimes barely ever spawns enemies, leaving the team with little to no life support.

 

It's great to see the canisters no longer being ignored though, mission accomplished!

 

As for the thread, I'd say to give it a few days to see how people get accustomed to the changes. Play styles need to be adjusted for the new system.

Edited August 27, 2015 by wtrmlnjuc

[--Q--PyralisTT]

Firstly, sarcastic bashing among each other and DE is out of place. It is harmful to all levels of discussion that I can see. 

 

Secondly, I went Solo vs 2 Person testing relatively casually (T3 Void + ODS), and there is certainly credence in the 'Solo being way harder' claims (at least in my limited experience this evening). 2 Person T3 Void Survival did not leave us starving for O2 in the slightest. Our lack of Corrosive Projections and 'end game loadouts' on my end was our real weakspot and reason for departure.

.

ODS Solo on the other hand is a different story - thirsty Nyx Prime was thirsty. 

 

Lastly, this isn't the end of these changes. Please observe directly in the OP that 'We'd love to hear your feedback and will continue to test and tweak if needed.' Rest assured Survival is a passionate topic inside and outside DE walls. 

 

Did the other player stay with you or were they running wildly in other rooms? Because most groups dont ever stay in 1 room.

[AM-Bunny]

And this is interesting: Corrosive Projection is a mod you need? C'mon, guys. You know it's a problem, we know it, so where the hell is a scaling rework?

 

You need Corrosive Projection to go beyond 40 minutes. This is an important distinction.

 

You don't *need* to stay in Survival for 60 minutes. That's not a requirement to successfully complete the mission. While it's a design mistake when a mod is required to complete content, there is nothing wrong with requiring it to approach the absolute limits of an endless game mode.

 

Your comment is implying that a person should be able to make it to 60 minutes of T4 Survival regardless of the mods equipped. Of course they should have some impact on your long term performance!! Now cut out this petulant mewling that has nothing to do with the topic discussed.

[Lumireaver]

As a long time player who has been pretty burned out by endless game modes, I believe the increase in difficulty ought to be met with an restructuring of rewards. Namely, rather than the AABCAABC rotation cycle we've had for so long, perhaps we could switch to a more intuitive ABCABC rotation cycle.

[egregiousRac]

I agree with a lot of the earlier comments. The RNG in survival makes it range from a cakewalk to infuriating purely based on luck. Please find a way to either remove the RNG or do away with the timer entirely. It does nothing to create tension, only annoyance.

 

 

As for the changes, they are pointless. All they do is make it more likely to have a very annoying run.

[Terrence_Knight]

  Have tried a couple T1 survivals now and I can't seem to make it to 20 minutes since the change today because there isn't enough enemies and they just..don't give the air needed to survive between oxygen drops, this nerf to the capsules needs to be reverted and tweaked to be playable solo -reliably-. This change hurts solo players a great deal more than groups in my opinion, sadly this makes the game mode unplayable for me if i can't reliably at least get to 20 minutes for rotation c stuff.

 

 This feels like a an unneeded and unwanted change and I'd strongly advise to be reconsidered as its shutting people out from rewards currently.

[Nako-Chan]

Remove PLS entirely.

 

Instead of restoring a set amount of remaining time, using the LS capsule will simply prevent the mission from failing until the next one arrives.

 

When the next one arrives, players have a certain amount of time to activate it before mission failed.

 

Please DE, this. ^

 

The current changes hurt solo play and dealing with PLS has never been fun. The changes only make the game mode even more unfun and tedious. The only thing some of us really wanted out of Survival was a real Horde Mode, not 'RNG & Tube Clicking: The Mini-Game'.

 

Edit: Two YEARS later and still asking for the bad Oxygen Mechanic to be axed.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Nako-Chan