Dear De. The Simple Statistical Reason As To Why Im Never Going To Buy Void Keys

[_FORASTERO_]

Can't wait to how the see how the Devs will respond this Week

 

like they will 

 

maybe dojo issue going to be answered  and i dont think they gonna fix this void broken drop ever  just  like deffense  mission we allways get hell fire 

[Marabitos]

This is impossible to read.

 

For anyone whom was addled by my "law-suit" statement, and to anyone else that might have been upset about it, I'd like to apologise - but I'd also like to elucidate a few things. Firstly, at no point in my reply did I say that I intended to sue nor endorsed the sueing of DE - what I did say was that I wouldn't be surprised if law-suits came out of this, and then proceeded to list my reasons as to why I thought such a thing might occur. Secondly, I am completely opposed to even the remotest concept of filing a law-suit against this company - why? Because despite this incident, it's still a great company and they're making an amazing game - this is a game that I can spend hours a day on, and it's a game that I've introduced to just about everyone I know, and I only want it to get better and better; I think we can all agree that this game is pretty kick &#!, because if we didn't, then we wouldn't be spending our money on it and taking the time to complain in the forum when something is obviously wrong with it. This might be a beta, and if problems are going to be fixed, how are the devs going to know what needs fixing unless people point it out? My friend said that having to pay for colours is completely ridiculous, and while I concur that having to pay for something like that is a little bit absurd, I immediately defended the game and said "You know what? this is an awesome game, and even though paying for colours is a little strange, I'm willing to pay that price the next time I get the chance because this game has a lot of potential and I want to see it grow - I'll definitely support these people for their hard work, and if buying colours helps them improve the game, then I'm all for it." Needless to say he didn't like my response, but you get the point: If a game is good, people are going to want to donate and support the devs - fun is the key element that keeps players playing, and this game is a whole lot of fun - I'd even go to a stretch and say that it's probably the most entertaining game I've played in years. That being said, no, I don't want people to file law-suits against this company - that would wreck them and their game (if the case held up in court, that is), and that would be putting a lot of good effort by both the devs and the players to waste. Still, I'm sure for some people the incentive might be there - you don't spend your money on something that's rigged, intentional or not, and not end up peeved about it. I'm sure in today's economy, lots of people can't afford half of what they spend, yet they do anyways - they spend their money because so far, it's been an incredible and worthwhile game; but once it gets to the point where they're spending their money for what's quintessentially an online casino and they realise they're being scammed (again, intentional or not), I believe some people, like many of the people in this thread, have a right to get upset about it. Thirdly, while I haven't been a victim of this apparently rigged lottery system, I'm still willing to step in and say that it's a huge mistake on the devs' part, and that I'm hoping that they fix it and recompense whomever lost money on this mistake. Rebecca already said that they're going to look into it, so for now I'm satiated with that answer - all we can do now is sit back and see what comes of the livestream and the next few updates. Again, to anyone who was potentially upset by my comment, I'd like to apologise once more - it was not meant to be interpreted in that particular fashion - and if it helps to further clear up how adamant I am about this game, I'll go ahead and end the post with this: Long live DE, long live Warframe, and long live the Tenno.

 

Oh gad, wall o text *shoots people in the face*

[aTaVaX]

I really like this system.  There is nothing forcing people to buy these keys, you can easily grind them too. These keys aren't anywhere near as rare as something like the potatoes. You're buying the convenience of getting these keys without the grind, you're buying awesome missions to do. If everyone that spent $5 or $10 or $20 got these weapons, then tons of people would have them and it would be stupid. Now you actually have a reason to play the AMAZING looking void missions over and over and over again, for these extremely hard to get items. And with the key system it actually discourages people from playing them so often that they get burned out on them. 

 

I am frustrated that there are babies that have a fit because they can't buy everything in this game easily. There needs to be more exclusivity to items than who is willing to pay a couple dollars for it.

Edited May 28, 2013 by aTaVaX

[MagnumKnight]

I really like this system.  There is nothing forcing people to buy these keys, you can easily grind them too. These keys aren't anywhere near as rare as something like the potatoes. You're buying the convenience of getting these keys without the grind, you're buying awesome missions to do. If everyone that spent $5 or $10 or $20 got these weapons, then tons of people would have them and it would be stupid. Now you actually have a reason to play the AMAZING looking void missions over and over and over again, for these extremely hard to get items. And with the key system it actually discourages people from playing them so often that they get burned out on them. 

 

I am frustrated that there are babies that have a fit because they can't buy everything in this game easily. There needs to be more exclusivity to items than who is willing to pay a couple dollars for it.

except that... those keys are still pretty rng heavy so going to the void is pretty much at random for alot of people even if they preserver. alot of people want to go to the void because WE HAVE THE FROST PRIME BP FROM THE EVENT. if you want to talk about exclusivity THAT shouldnt be dropping in the void but it's nice that they care about those who couldnt participate, but oh hey wonderful @(*()$ news, is that since we only have the fp bp that kinda means it's just sitting in our inventories DOING NOTHING FOR US when it could be doing something. while saying hey here is a free bp that's hard to @(*()$ get thanks to an event is nice and all, what sucks is it's horribly hard to complete so it hurts. especially for those of us not lucky or gifted enough to be able to go to such an exclusive place but hey that's okay i understand. i'll just go grind another hundred times to not get a key at all. mr exclusive pants.

Edited May 28, 2013 by MagnumKnight

[LongDraw]

Okay everyone, here's what really needs to happen.  During the entire live stream #6 on Wednesday, everyone needs to repeat the same simple message, not in caps and do it the entire time they are running the stream.  Now, I'm going to make the first suggestion on what that message should be at the bottom of my reply post.  If you agree with it, just click the green up arrow for confirmation.  Post with the most up votes will be chosen.

 

 

 

Refund all Void Key purchases.  Forma is pay2win because of labs in Dojo.

 

*edit* Btw, so everyone knows, I am taking the risk of getting a second warning point on my account with this post.  As most know, 3 points and you get your account banned.  But I do this because I know that this is the right thing to do and should I get banned, at least I leave with a clear conscience.

Edited May 28, 2013 by LongDraw

[DarkFenix2k5]

I really like this system.  There is nothing forcing people to buy these keys, you can easily grind them too. These keys aren't anywhere near as rare as something like the potatoes. You're buying the convenience of getting these keys without the grind, you're buying awesome missions to do. If everyone that spent $5 or $10 or $20 got these weapons, then tons of people would have them and it would be stupid. Now you actually have a reason to play the AMAZING looking void missions over and over and over again, for these extremely hard to get items. And with the key system it actually discourages people from playing them so often that they get burned out on them. 

 

I am frustrated that there are babies that have a fit because they can't buy everything in this game easily. There needs to be more exclusivity to items than who is willing to pay a couple dollars for it.

 

aTaVaX I don't think you understand what people are actually complaining about. People don't have a problem with buying keys for these missions, that is perfectly consistent with Warframe policy thus far; buy for quick convenience, grind otherwise. The problems is the frankly ridiculous rigging of the RNG, with people running literally hundreds of Void missions and receiving nothing for their troubles. Why? Because DE decided that they would lock away one component of each available item behind a ridiculously low drop chance (we're talking fractions of a percent, people with 50+ runs and failing to find the same items is not a rare or isolated case). This is a con, pure and simple, that is why so many people are angry. If anything I'm surprised this kind of deception is legal; it's certainly immoral and shows a tendency towards the worst kind of business practice.

 

As far as I can tell, there is only one solution to this debacle; DE must refund all platinum spent on void keys since update 8 went live and immediately hotfix the drop rates to reasonable levels.

 

In the meantime other players would be well advised not to purchase platinum, at least not until it becomes clear whether this kind of underhanded conduct is a one-off mistake or standard policy for DE.

Edited May 28, 2013 by DarkFenix2k5

[dierath]

50% of these atleast were t2, only 2 t3

 

Forma bp  - 6

 

frost prime chases bp - 1

frost prime helmet bp - 4

frost prime system bp - 3

 

reaper prime bp - 3

reaper handle - 6

reaper blade - 0

 

latron prime bp - 10

latron prime barel - 4

latron prime stock - 6

latron prime reciever 1

 

about 40 void runs

[Miaradz]

I know this thread is a little old by internet standards but I want to add my 2 cents. I'm a now inactive EvE Online player. Yes I will acknowledge my privilege of playing a subscriber MMO but I would think the same design principles would apply here, if only slightly changed.

When Apocrypha came out, there were wormholes. They lead to random places and were initially really hard to find, requiring specialised probe scouts and dedication to the art for scanning in 3D space. Much like our Alerts, they were even time-limited and would only let so many people in before collapsing. However the pay-off was great. You got to run anomalies for new wormhole specific resources and while drops are indeed random - they were still resources much like our Rubedo and Alloy Plates. This allowed you to actually dictate what you wanted to do with your effort. I could take the resources plundered from wormhole systems and build myself a shiny T3 ship, 1 for each faction. I could sell it on the open market and make a killing.

 

Here the relationship breaks down because EvE Online is an open-world MMO and soon the players colonised wormhole space and it turned into a merry wild west of corporations eking out a stake in a wormhole only to be pulped by a larger corporation in a neighbouring wormhole and having their stuff taken. Also because it is a subbed game there is no designed monetisation of the wormhole system - it's a gameplay concept from the get go.
 

The take-away from my anecdote is to give players more agency in choosing their rewards, be it a token system and/or simply another tier of resources. I feel, this should be the case for end-game and high-level content, especially if it is challenging. Sure you have an element of chance in your Void Key drop rate (which i think is a little too sparse) but putting another RNG behind that is double dipping in the microtransaction roulette and that is damaging your goodwill with players, as you can see.

 

Hell, integrate Prime research into the Clan Dojo system. It's a better way to incentivise dojo construction, and while yes this is probably gonna hurt small clans even more what with your Forma requirements (which I think is bad and should only be kept for key facilities not freaking hallways) but encourage what you, DE, are trying to grasp at, that is a more social experience for clans.

[SolidAcid]

i wonder how many ppl have resetted their account so they can do all those voidruns again?(ofcourse first put their ingredients(alloy plate rubedo n stuff) into dojobuildings).......

[SanguineXIII]

i wonder how many ppl have resetted their account so they can do all those voidruns again?(ofcourse first put their ingredients(alloy plate rubedo n stuff) into dojobuildings).......

Not many considering they immediately disabled the account reset as soon as they realized that people would be able to do that after the update.

 

Funny thing being, they were actually sure enough that people would literally reset ALL their progress in the game just so they could double dip the RNG tables, that they even bothered.   That goes to show you they knew how bad the situation was going to be before most of them went on vacation for memorial day weekend.

 

I have a feeling that when the reset does come back, there are going to be some new major rules.  One of which being, any consumable item you purchased from the market with platinum will not have the platinum used on it refunded.

Edited May 28, 2013 by SanguineXIII

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

I really like this system.  There is nothing forcing people to buy these keys, you can easily grind them too. These keys aren't anywhere near as rare as something like the potatoes. You're buying the convenience of getting these keys without the grind, you're buying awesome missions to do. If everyone that spent $5 or $10 or $20 got these weapons, then tons of people would have them and it would be stupid. Now you actually have a reason to play the AMAZING looking void missions over and over and over again, for these extremely hard to get items. And with the key system it actually discourages people from playing them so often that they get burned out on them. 

 

I am frustrated that there are babies that have a fit because they can't buy everything in this game easily. There needs to be more exclusivity to items than who is willing to pay a couple dollars for it.

 

This is what F2P games offer us to get the content:

1) pay to get stuff.

2) grind to get stuff.

 

This is what Warframe is offering us to get the content at the current state:

1) pay to grind to get stuff.

2) grind to grind to get stuff.

 

See what's the problem here? You pay money for a broken NG. It isn't even random.

 

Of course it is their business and they may do what they want BUT it is also their business to keep players interested in putting money in the game. I am interested in this right now? Hell no. After watching people who did like more than hundred Void runs paying hundreds of dollars to buy the keys and still missing a goddamn blade and a reciever, I am unwittingly starting to think: do DE think that I am a @(*()$ moron? No one sane enough will continue buying Void Keys if this BS continues. No one. Will this hurt DE? It will hurt a lot.

[aTaVaX]

aTaVaX I don't think you understand what people are actually complaining about. People don't have a problem with buying keys for these missions, that is perfectly consistent with Warframe policy thus far; buy for quick convenience, grind otherwise. The problems is the frankly ridiculous rigging of the RNG, with people running literally hundreds of Void missions and receiving nothing for their troubles. Why? Because DE decided that they would lock away one component of each available item behind a ridiculously low drop chance (we're talking fractions of a percent, people with 50+ runs and failing to find the same items is not a rare or isolated case). This is a con, pure and simple, that is why so many people are angry. If anything I'm surprised this kind of deception is legal; it's certainly immoral and shows a tendency towards the worst kind of business practice.

 

As far as I can tell, there is only one solution to this debacle; DE must refund all platinum spent on void keys since update 8 went live and immediately hotfix the drop rates to reasonable levels.

 

In the meantime other players would be well advised not to purchase platinum, at least not until it becomes clear whether this kind of underhanded conduct is a one-off mistake or standard policy for DE.

 

yes, i understand that, and what i was saying, is they need that rarity because items need to be more exclusive then simply whoever is willing to pay a couple dollars for it.

[MyXmaN]

A token system would be really nice.

 

If they really want us to work harder on reaper blades or latron receivers, they can just make it more token-expensive then, right? So a person that does 50 runs actually gets something.

[NotaCobra]

except that... those keys are still pretty rng heavy so going to the void is pretty much at random for alot of people even if they preserver. alot of people want to go to the void because WE HAVE THE FROST PRIME BP FROM THE EVENT. if you want to talk about exclusivity THAT shouldnt be dropping in the void but it's nice that they care about those who couldnt participate, but oh hey wonderful @(*()$ news, is that since we only have the fp bp that kinda means it's just sitting in our inventories DOING NOTHING FOR US when it could be doing something. while saying hey here is a free bp that's hard to @(*()$ get thanks to an event is nice and all, what sucks is it's horribly hard to complete so it hurts. especially for those of us not lucky or gifted enough to be able to go to such an exclusive place but hey that's okay i understand. i'll just go grind another hundred times to not get a key at all. mr exclusive pants.

 

Holy crap.

You suck at english.

 

I don't know if anyone has told you that before.

 

 

But instead of Just insulting you, I'm going to re-write your post and THEN counter argue it;

 

While that may be partly true, regardless of how they are obtained, void keys rely heavily on completely random rewards, consequently, even players who put in a lot of time or money may still miss out on receiving a single complete reward.

Many players feel obliged to visit the void as they received the otherwise uncompletable Frost Prime Blueprint from the earlier fusion Moa event (That said, even players who missed out on the event are able to get what seemed like an exclusive blueprint, perhaps you should consider that when you bring up the subject of exclusivity.)

For the players who received the frost prime blueprint from the event, having it sit in their inventories, unusable, is nothing other than an aggravating taunt from DE.

Even those with the time and money have difficulty completing frost prime, and for those that have neither, it's simply infuriating.

In conclusion, I am a very, very, very angry person with no alternative or suggestion to offer, merely disgruntled and unable to fully articulate why.

 

In which case, I will say;

The frost prime blueprint is an unfortunate result...

I honestly think the event should have rewarded something more useful, or more easily obtained. The opportunity to have a chance to gain the pieces to construct a slightly better version of an existing blueprint?

It just seems cheap, especially when the Frost Prime blueprint can already be obtained within the void.

 

That said, There's nothing stopping you selling it, the event gave you 100,000 credits as well and while some may claim that "credits are useless" the same could be said for everything in the game right now except... oh that's right.. Void Keys.

 

Void keys being difficult to farm, and having an entirely random reward actually makes them more valuable, otherwise every player would get every weapon within the first few days, which means we'll be right back to pre-update 8; that is, everybody has everything and is whining about a lack of end game content. (not that that's not already the case)

 

Finally, your tone and phrasing makes your post seem like nothing other than a child's whining, think more carefully about what you say before you say it next time.

Edited May 28, 2013 by NotaCobra

[fishworshipper]

Void keys being difficult to farm, and having an entirely random reward actually makes them more valuable, otherwise every player would get every weapon within the first few days, which means we'll be right back to pre-update 8; that is, everybody has everything and is whining about a lack of end game content. (not that that's not already the case)

(The stuff I'm not quoting I pretty much agree with)

The one problem is that the rewards from Void Keys AREN'T random. You have about an 85% chance to get a Latron part (discounting the reciever) or a Reaper Handle, and about a 14% chance to get anything else. And a 1% chance to get a Latron Reciever/Reaper Blade.

[winterau]

I feel very lucky because I have gotten both a Latron Prime Receiver and the Reaper Blade (still looking for Frost Prime Chassis though).

 

I do tend to agree though that the whole, pay money for a chance at the RNG sucks to a large degree.

[MagnumKnight]

Holy crap.

You suck at english.

 

I don't know if anyone has told you that before.

 

 

But instead of Just insulting you, I'm going to re-write your post and THEN counter argue it;

 

 

In which case, I will say;

The frost prime blueprint is an unfortunate result...

I honestly think the event should have rewarded something more useful, or more easily obtained. The opportunity to have a chance to gain the pieces to construct a slightly better version of an existing blueprint?

It just seems cheap, especially when the Frost Prime blueprint can already be obtained within the void.

 

That said, There's nothing stopping you selling it, the event gave you 100,000 credits as well and while some may claim that "credits are useless" the same could be said for everything in the game right now except... oh that's right.. Void Keys.

 

Void keys being difficult to farm, and having an entirely random reward actually makes them more valuable, otherwise every player would get every weapon within the first few days, which means we'll be right back to pre-update 8; that is, everybody has everything and is whining about a lack of end game content. (not that that's not already the case)

 

Finally, your tone and phrasing makes your post seem like nothing other than a child's whining, think more carefully about what you say before you say it next time.

ACTUALLY.... i've been lacking sleep from constantly trying to run endless defense. about 2-4 hours of sleep because i happen to be a determined jack &#!. that's why im unable to properly articulate myself. but thanks for letting me know i need to improve at the first language i learned. :) but onward to the point, while i may actually agree that i could just sell it, there is also the question of pride. will i sell it? no because frost is my main warframe and i've been excited about the prime version of it. yes it's a childish tone and stubbornness that creeps into the way i type, i cannot let this go.

  The void keys being difficult to farm is one thing, it's still a complete pain in the butt to grind to grind and that's not a system that many smile upon. people have been looking forward to it. people have been let down. To grind to grind to get stuff as it has been put, is not a proper way to make something exclusive,to make them more valuable than they really are, and the system does clearly need to be reworked for something more fair, more flexible, more enjoyable. the fact that you can get other pieces of the latron prime and the reaper prime in spades while the other piece remains elusive, is not a proper way to implement such a fun update. it just feels like two layers of the same S#&$ we go through day in and day out. the amount of effort put into trying to get these items feels and actually getting them for said efforts completely and entirely out of the players control. what it is is just as it has been said, lottery, slot machining some content so it takes control from the player and chucks it over to lady luck.

  hell if you want a suggestion, i would suggest that instead of it just being simply a reward at the end of the mission like some kind of carrot at the end of a stick well it'd be a better way to immerse players into the whole experience by allowing them to actually find and pick up these items up through rigorous timed tests that would allow them to prove their mettle. hard enough that not every one will get it the first time but forgivable enough to allow players to adapt to what's going on around them and think on their feet within the allotted time. and to throw in an idea that's been thrown up perhaps of the things you pick up you can only choose one of them to take home to the foundry to tuck it away safely with the materials you have stored up. and maybe perhaps they're not always there and they're not always the same tests, and they're not always the same level of difficulty.

((P.S. the credits werent useless, they've actually been a big help))

Edited May 28, 2013 by MagnumKnight

[unmog]

Okay everyone, here's what really needs to happen.  During the entire live stream #6 on Wednesday, everyone needs to repeat the same simple message, not in caps and do it the entire time they are running the stream.  Now, I'm going to make the first suggestion on what that message should be at the bottom of my reply post.  If you agree with it, just click the green up arrow for confirmation.  Post with the most up votes will be chosen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*edit* Btw, so everyone knows, I am taking the risk of getting a second warning point on my account with this post.  As most know, 3 points and you get your account banned.  But I do this because I know that this is the right thing to do and should I get banned, at least I leave with a clear conscience.

Dont see why that post would get you a warning or banned... seems like an innocent idea to try and get them to answer this particular issue.

[MistahBlitzy]

No offense to anyone, but after 15 runs, no one should've kept buying more void keys anyways. 

[Abzu]

Up to my 210th run, no reciever.  I did get.. ONE blade though.

[SweetSlaanesh]

I really like this system.  There is nothing forcing people to buy these keys, you can easily grind them too. These keys aren't anywhere near as rare as something like the potatoes. You're buying the convenience of getting these keys without the grind, you're buying awesome missions to do. If everyone that spent $5 or $10 or $20 got these weapons, then tons of people would have them and it would be stupid. Now you actually have a reason to play the AMAZING looking void missions over and over and over again, for these extremely hard to get items. And with the key system it actually discourages people from playing them so often that they get burned out on them. 

 

I am frustrated that there are babies that have a fit because they can't buy everything in this game easily. There needs to be more exclusivity to items than who is willing to pay a couple dollars for it.

 

 

Ok. Did the math based on reported rewards from void runs. The most promising drop rate for Forma BP's is around 4 percent. That equates to about 42.25 days of PLAYTIME to get the 95 Forma required to build a fully functional Dojo minus the Grand Hall, as the capacity isn't necessary for the base assets. This is based on the extremely generous idea that you can do 5 waves of Infested in 5 minutes on Proteus, with a drop rate of 1 key per 5 runs. That's insane.

[Miaradz]

To be fair, if that's a guild effort then that 42 days is spread out over all the active members - but wow that's a lot of playtime.

[Grandarex]

I agree with every sentiment that everyone shares. I too, am a victim of this rigged RNG. 

 

But I can't help but feel a bit impressed at this money-grab strategy DE utilized - taking advantage of I'm-almost-there feeling.

 

It's disgraceful and disgusting, yes. But just imagine the sheer amount of money DE made over the week. 

 

Regardless of what we say or do now, Digital Extremes won this war. 

 

Bravo, DE, bravo. 

[Aerensiniac]

EDIT: Also, Beta is Beta. They are actively adding in additional content as they complete it, and building this game from the ground up around us. Stop treating this as a finished product, when it clearly isn't.

>>Tells ppl to stop treating the game as a finished product

>>White Knights those who sell the unfinished game as a finished product

 

I love the smell of irrationality in the morning.

You've essentially told ppl that this is their fault for spending on a game in Beta, which branches into 2 conclusions:

1. Nobody should give DE money until the game is finished

2. Sucking you off with underhanded practices is a good thing

 

You essentially slapped both the players and DE in the face in order to put up your white knight one liner.

These posts are really unnecessary here.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[JerryMouse13]

>>Tells ppl to stop treating the game as a finished product

>>White Knights those who sell the unfinished game as a finished product

 

I love the smell of irrationality in the morning.

You've essentially told ppl that this is their fault for spending on a game in Beta, which branches into 2 conclusions:

1. Nobody should give DE money until the game is finished

2. Sucking you off with underhanded practices is a good thing

 

You essentially slapped both the players and DE in the face in order to put up your white knight one liner.

These posts are really unnecessary here.

 

My point was, that you can't rightly complain about 'lack of content' in a game that is marketed as a beta. You had to sign a legally binding contract stating that you acknowledged that this game represented an incomplete product, in addition to the fact that sweeping design changes where a possibility, in order to even play this game. 

 

Additionally, white knighting? really?

Edited May 28, 2013 by JerryMouse13