Multishot Mods Are A Problem. And It's Going To Get Worse.

[(PSN)Aryonas]

I've seen Multishot mods as a huge issue in Warframe for a long time. And I'm making this post to try and open the eyes of fellow Tenno to what is actually happening here with your weapon customization and how I think you should be getting more, by getting less.

 

To be clear I am talking about mods like Split Chamber, Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent, Hell's Chamber, Dual Rounds and even Scattered Justice. They add multishot to a weapon which is a percent chance of firing two or more bullets using only one ammo and trigger pull/cycle of the action.

 

Why do I see them as a problem?  I am an end game player. I interact with hundreds of other end game players and hundreds more mid game.  The former group has ALL multishot mods on ALL weapons. That means every primary and secondary has every applicable multishot mod on them. The former also has those mods MAX rank. The latter, meaning mid game, tend to use ALL the multishot mods, but differ in that they have them middle rank or so as they have not yet applied enough forma to their favourite weapons.

 

Let me explain what I see: On my Soma I see 7 (seven) mod slots. Not 8 (eight) slots. On my synapse, Cernos, Prisma Gorgon I have 7 mod slots. Not 8 mod slots. In fact, as far as most (Most. Not all MOST) of the end game community is concerned there is no option at all for an 8th (eighth) mod slot BECAUSE going without split chamber is NOT AN OPTION. My Hek has only 6 mod slots. If possible there is no reason on this planet I would go without Scattered Justice. The same goes for Hell's Chamber.     You understand what I'm getting at?

 

After DE acknowledged that Serration and Pressure Point are a problem, I thought they would catch onto this as well. But they're not.   In the most recent Dev Stream Scott said the idea of "multishot for melee" was cool. 

 

Just take a second to think about this.  Do any of your melee weapons NOT have Pressure Point?  If you don't have Pressure Point on all of your melee weapons I'd be inclined to doubt your understanding of Warframe as well as your end game ability.    So what you're saying is you have ONE less mod slot on all your swords.  And if there is a Melee Multishot, I won't believe the person who says they won't use it. In fact I would guarantee it's use to the point where all Melee weapons get their customizable mod slots reduced to 6 (six).

 

I am asking you to shout DE awake on this matter because it seems to be slipping their mind.  My hope for getting multishot removed was entirely reversed at hearing Scott endorse the feature for melee.

 

 

SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM

Now for those who think there is no way to fix it, or will accuse me of not proposing any alternatives, simply understand that Multi shot mods apply some very basic math to the stats of weapons. This math can be applied to the base stats of all weapons quite easily in the form of average base damage increases.    Imagine firing 100 arrows at 10 damage with a max split chamber. Just say 87 arrows were double shots, 13 were single. You're looking at 1870 damage over 100 arrows.  Now simply get rid of multishot mods and bring the base damage of that bow from 10 up to 19 (rounded from 18.7).    You see? The average damage of 100 shots was 18.7 each shot, up from the base 10 damage.  Now I understand that this could change because you may fire 100 more arrows and get 82 double shots something. But it does not make a massive difference. If you shot 100 arrows with 70 double, then fired 100 arrows with 99 double the difference in damage is only 480. So between an average of 15 and 20 base damage. It would be safe to adjust this example bow from 10 damage to about 17 damage and kill multishot.     The same thing can be done for status chance too, don't worry.    The only issue arises with Thunderbolt, which can be manually compensated to proc more often. The math would in fact suggest changing it to about 55%

[DaftMeat]

You know they're considering Multistrike for melee, right?

[(PSN)Aryonas]

You know they're considering Multistrike for melee, right?

The title says, "It's going to get worse." and in my post I clearly mention the melee multi shot, so yes, yes I do know.

[shut]

You know they're considering Multistrike for melee, right?

Come back when you read the thread.

 

 

 

OT:

I'm with you 100% on the fact that multishot is a problematic "required" mod, but I'm not so sure about the solution.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seemed to be suggesting that multishot simply add some more projectiles but cut down the damage of each one so overall damage is unchanged. Doesn't that make it a completely pointless mod? There's not much point to it unless:

a) a weapon's accuracy is so bad that the player feels the need to "stabilize" the damage distribution with a multishot mod,

b) a weapon has a greater effect based directly on the number of projectiles (e.g. shotguns with 100% Status chance, which proc on every individual pellet), and/or

c) (to a small extent) you want to squeeze a bit more Status per shot out of your weapon.

 

 

I feel that this is an ineffective solution because it doesn't solve the issue of "necessary" mods (of which Base Damage mods are equally necessary, if not more so) in the first place. The only ways to truly solve the issues of "necessary" mods are to either incorporate them into the weapon based on its level (so damage/multishot both increase based on the weapon's level, leaving more room for elementals and utility mods), or to nerf them into oblivion to the point that utility mods are overall sidegrades to them (so that players can use the mod system to truly "modify" their weapon to their tastes rather than being shoehorned into damage builds).

The former "solution" is what most players in these forums would like to see, although it doesn't really change much since players would just go for the next most mathematically powerful build.

 

The latter solution eliminates mindless stat-stacking and solves the issue of ridiculously stat-based gameplay (since enemy scaling would obviously also be toned down with it), but requires a major change to the game's very focus since a large part of our current sense of progression is damage accumulation. It would also make a good portion of the playerbase quit on the spot, which is why it's ^{(unpopular opinion warning): sadly} not likely to happen.

Edited August 30, 2015 by SortaRandom

[(PSN)Aryonas]

Come back when you read the thread.

 

 

 

OT:

I'm with you 100% on the fact that multishot is a problematic "required" mod, but I'm not so sure about the solution.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seemed to be suggesting that multishot simply add some more projectiles but cut down the damage of each one so overall damage is unchanged. Doesn't that make it a completely pointless mod? There's not much point to it unless:

a) a weapon's accuracy is so bad that the player feels the need to "stabilize" the damage distribution with a multishot mod,

b) a weapon has a greater effect based directly on the number of projectiles (e.g. shotguns with 100% Status chance, which proc on every individual pellet), and/or

c) (to a small extent) you want to squeeze a bit more Status per shot out of your weapon.

 

 

I feel that this is an ineffective solution because it doesn't solve the issue of "necessary" mods (of which Base Damage mods are equally necessary, if not more so) in the first place. The only ways to truly solve the issues of "necessary" mods are to either incorporate them into the weapon based on its level, or to nerf them into oblivion to the point that utility mods are overall sidegrades to them.

The latter solves the issue of ridiculously stat-based gameplay, but requires a major change to the game's focus since a large part of progression is damage accumulation.

If you proc a multishot with split chamber on a bow you fire two arrows. Two arrows, 10 damage each.  And I agree that we should change the BASE STATS, which is exactly what I suggested in my solution. The stats should be changed to damage based on average damage done over time while taking the percentage of multishot into it. Observe my example above.

[Katinka]

The same can be said for base damage and every weapon needs at least one element as well (you just choose the flavour of it but it).  For high crit weapons the crit mods are pretty much essential/no-brainer choices too.  So by that thinking Soma, Synapse, Amprex, Dread etc. have 3 mod slots.  Your first five being Serration, Split Chamber, Point Strike, Vital Sense and <90% element of choice>.

 

The problem I have with every suggestion I've seen for removing base damage or multi-shot mods is that the space will just be filled by whatever mathematically gives you the next best bonus.  It will take seconds for people to decide the new meta and then we'll have the same situation.  So when will you stop?  Even reload speed, magazine size and stability boil down to how quickly and reliably you can put more shots into your target.  The only variation with weapon mods is whether or not crit mods are worth it and whether or not you want to sacrifice some elemental damage for status chance.

[Rekkou]

Want to know how people will use that freed slot? They will just use another damage mod that will be obligatory somehow, that damage mod removed, people will just use another damage mod. It's not going to end unless it ends completely.

[(PSN)Ninja_Reaper_916]

The same thing can be said about seration. Etc. Really mod system has many many issues it's confused on what it wants to accomplish

[shut]

If you proc a multishot with split chamber on a bow you fire two arrows. Two arrows, 10 damage each.  And I agree that we should change the BASE STATS, which is exactly what I suggested in my solution. The stats should be changed to damage based on average damage done over time while taking the percentage of multishot into it. Observe my example above.

 

I probably misunderstood your proposed solution in my first post...

Are you suggesting that we simply remove all forms of multishot but buff weapons' damage to compensate? So we basically do the same overall damage but have a free slot?

 

If that's the case, then as the Rekkou and Katinka said, it doesn't change anything since people would just find the next mathematically-strongest build and go with that instead. The issue of mindless stat-stacking with "necessary" mods is not solved.

[KnightCole]

Is this a thread QQing about the current meta?  Stop lol, its never going to end.  Even if they nerfed w/e meta we have now, there would come a new meta that would spawn an entire new billion page threads about how its OP/UP/broke, game breaking, boring, blah, blah, bullS#&amp;&#036;....

 

Yeah, damage is powercreeped up on mobs and our Warframes.....it aint gunna stop...power creep only goes up in MMOs..never down.

[rechot]

its only going to get worse you MEAN ITS ONLY GOING TO GET BETTER

[shut]

its only going to get worse you MEAN ITS ONLY GOING TO GET BETTER

 

Yeah, no. It's not.

 

Melee builds are stupidly cramped enough as is. And while melee obviously needs some love from the devs, I'd rather not lose one of my precious mod slots for melee builds when the devs could just boost the base stats and mechanics of melee directly.

[Urlan]

I disagree with your position Aryones, all damage mods are pretty much auto includes by the nature of game's design. With the nature of infinitely scaling enemies damage is required. The actual issue in this state isn't the mods themselves but the state of how the enemies scale, the same issue as the damage mods can be seen in how most 'late game' players feel they must use Corrosive Projection to even hurt the later levelled enemies. The damage mods and by extention the vitality and redirection mods on your warframe exist because the nature of the game's design and reliance on mods for real stats. The only way to remove that would be to make the mods inherit to the warframes and weapons; at that point reducing much of the point of the mod system in the process.

 

Instead, to cover your feelings of an issue with those of the devteam responding to feelings like it, the main change would have to be creating a clear growth plaeau for both players and enemies. As it is, enemies scale infinitly with little reasoning to their increasing power while players who grow using mods, are capped at the maximum ranking of the mods used to upgrade their equipment in the arsenal before the mission. To correct this, enemies would have the infinite scaling removed and in its place, a system to give the equivalent of mod points for the game to modify its troops going to a maxium of fully forma'd and catalyzed/reactored equipment. This creates a 'power plateau' - an important concept in game design - as it gives both a clear late game aspect and a clear maximum growth for all the players, cpu or human in the game. At this point, damage mods and survivability mods could be either phased into being stat increases for the equipment stated or done away with entire as now the playing field would be both more level as damage would be a non scaling stat.

 

The problem of such a stance is that it would eventually lead to less difference in builds as the removal of choices always leads to, there are excellent game design books on the subject. Basically though, creatures tend to do whatever makes a task easier or more enjoyable and will gravitate towards choices that do one or the other even if, in the long term, the 'meta' that they are doing removes their ease of use or enjoyment in the long term. Still it would give the closest to a balanced playing field the game could have while still accepting that some players want challenge and others want fair play.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Urlan

[IronWolfKnight]

I think the only solution to fix Multishot mods although this is a very controversial fix is to nerf it by dividing the damage, crit chance and status chance between the original shot and the new shot just like Shotguns with innate multishot.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Want to know how people will use that freed slot? They will just use another damage mod that will be obligatory somehow, that damage mod removed, people will just use another damage mod. It's not going to end unless it ends completely.

Then let's end it completely.

[shut]

Then let's end it completely.

 

This.

 

People keep saying that the stat-based nature of WF is impossible to stop. It's not. All we need is an overhaul to the mod system (with simple flattening of enemy scaling to go with it) so that mods are truly "weapon modifications" (like in shooter games) instead of "straight stat increases" (like traditional fantasy RPGs).

[KnightCole]

Instead, to cover your feelings of an issue with those of the devteam responding to feelings like it, the main change would have to be creating a clear growth plaeau for both players and enemies. As it is, enemies scale infinitly with little reasoning to their increasing power while players who grow using mods, are capped at the maximum ranking of the mods used to upgrade their equipment in the arsenal before the mission. To correct this, enemies would have the infinite scaling removed and in its place, a system to give the equivalent of mod points for the game to modify its troops going to a maxium of fully forma'd and catalyzed/reactored equipment. This creates a 'power plateau' - an important concept in game design - as it gives both a clear late game aspect and a clear maximum growth for all the players, cpu or human in the game. At this point, damage mods and survivability mods could be either phased into being stat increases for the equipment stated or done away with entire as now the playing field would be both more level as damage would be a non scaling stat.

 

 

GEEZ your a genius, make  this so.

 

The scaling seems to take flying leaps in power.

 

Where like 1-15 mobs are manageable and easy.  15-30 they are not so bad, a slight notice in power, dmg and  the like, but nothing to bad.  Then suddenly at 50, they start to 4 shot my Rhino....all maxed out wiht all possible defensive mods.  THey take immense more damage and yeah, I cant even begin to imagine what its like vs 60-70, 100+ mobs....

 

THe mobs should get increases equal to mod card dots.  Like every 5 lvls is an increase equal to 2 more dots on a 10 dot mod card.  Then, like every 10 lvls, they get an increase, equal to adding another mod card to that. 

 

Then, make that scale, based on the average number of dots on each player's mod cards, where if every guy has maxed cards on everything, the mobs get a nice increase. 

 

RIght now scaling seems to be similar to if our Serration ranks went 15, 30, 45, 60, 120, 250, 370, 550, 875, 1250%.....

This.

 

People keep saying that the stat-based nature of WF is impossible to stop. It's not. All we need is an overhaul to the mod system (with simple flattening of enemy scaling to go with it) so that mods are truly "weapon modifications" (like in shooter games) instead of "straight stat increases" (like traditional fantasy RPGs).

 

 

Removing mods like serration and split chamber?  leaving in utility mods?  I to kinda wish this game took a different approach, more like Planetside 2, where everything is viable in its own way, instead of like we have it where go meta or gohome.

[Bryntwulf]

Well, they did mention adding in another slot for firearm utility mods. I think thats in either 17.5 or 18. 

[Plushy]

Too much math. Not enough(if any) good reasons why multishot is purely bad and evil as so many people seem to think it is. Out of spite, I'm going to use my multishot laden penta and angstrum all day! :D more explodey is better!

[7grims]

???????

So... yah, all this is obvious... its sad ppl are still slowlly realizing this.

 

Serration is a huge problem, even if you remove it, what will ppl always use all the time?

multishot, if multishot is removed what will ppl always use all the time?

heavy caliber mods, etc etc etc

The problem goes on and on.

 

What I see in this tread is that you didn't get that the serration problematic, isnt only about serration, but about all damage increase mods, that become mandatory and break with build diversity.

 

Its sad and shameful that DE as recognize this problem long ago, and yet they keep working and doing the exact opposite, by keeping on releasing all sorts of damage mods.

 

And if you think the serration problem ends with weapons, then you have much more to learn.

With frames, everyone always uses the same 6 or 7 mods for all frames and for all builds.

Mods that affect range, continuity, strength, efficiency are equally problematic as serration-like mods.

 

 

Still +1 for bringing up this topic again, hopefully more ppl will wake up, and make DE realize how bad their mod system is.

DE evolved from a skill tree to a mod system, only to end up doing a mod system that functions exactly like a skill tree.

Edited August 30, 2015 by 7grims

[Ashiotomi]

You do realize Multishot is not just a damage mod right? On soma it not only increases your damage but fills in the gaps in the spread of your shots. This is equally true for shotguns and other automatic weapons. Doubling the base damage would not have the same effect. Also I am fairly certain this would murder the living hell out of status builds on a lot of weapons. They just need to add that utility slot. See? Then you would have your 8 slots just fine. Assuming of course that you don't count base damage mods as required, or elemental mods.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Warframe's current modding system is a fundamentally good idea that's been doing nothing but chugging lead paint 24/7 for the past 2 years. The idea is to give the player a vast array of possible setups to work with, but due to all the lead paint chugging, the system is somehow even more limiting than something like Destiny's upgrade trees. At least they had a few variable perk choices. The only way I could possibly see the current mod system being salvageable is if every single mod in the game was completely reworked.

 

The award for best weapon customization system in any game ever is probably tied between Blacklight: Retribution and Loadout, with the former about fine-tuning the stats of your gun to make every single stat exactly what you want it to be, and the latter about drastically altering the nature in which your gun behaves to make it something completely unique to you. The best weapon customization system I can conceive of is one that combines Blacklight's finesse with Loadout's endless variety.

Edited August 30, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[7grims]

You do realize Multishot is not just a damage mod right? On soma it not only increases your damage but fills in the gaps in the spread of your shots. This is equally true for shotguns and other automatic weapons. Doubling the base damage would not have the same effect. Also I am fairly certain this would murder the living hell out of status builds on a lot of weapons. They just need to add that utility slot. See? Then you would have your 8 slots just fine. Assuming of course that you don't count base damage mods as required, or elemental mods.

 

its sad to see that way of thinking.

Utility slots isnt good or a improvement.

 

The ideal of this amazing mod system, was to create build diversity, which will never happen with mandatory and essential mods for basic combat.

 

What the devs should aim for, is in fact the total liberation of the mod system from damage and resistance mods, utility mods should be the only mods existing (for both frames and weapons), that would give players the true and open mod liberty, and diversity to create builds.

Edited August 30, 2015 by 7grims

[KnightCole]

its sad to see that way of thinking.

Utility slots isnt good or a improvement.

 

The ideal of this amazing mod system, was to create build diversity, which will never happen with mandatory and essential mods for basic combat.

 

What the devs should aim for, is in fact the total liberation of the mod system from damage and resistance mods, utility mods should be the only mods existing (for both frames and weapons), that would give players the true and open mod liberty, and diversity to create builds.

 

 

Without damage mods, weapons like the Soma would be absolutely useless.  Alot of the guns would need some serious buff to base numbers.  Soma is only good with critical and damage mods jacking it's damage out of the gutter.  Even that 100 round mag means nothing when you need all of it to kill 1 or 2 guys.

 

Basically all the LMG weapons would be utterly useless, they all have kinda bad dmg or really bad spread, or both. 

 

Maybe some mods could use some reworking and the scaling for sure on enemies could, but removal of dmg mods? no.

 

I do think we could use a rework of enemy scaling, maybe a nerfing of damage mods, a buffing of utility mods, a Aura and Exilus slot for guns/melee and buffing weapons that have really bad base dmg to kinda compensate.

[owendawgx]

MultiS#&amp;&#036; is the worst thing in the entire game in terms of modding weapons, and ruins the point of certain other weapon options. Agree, remove multishot from the game. Please.