Multishot Mods Are A Problem. And It's Going To Get Worse.

[FelisImpurrator]

So a newbie should be at 40% Power of the best players can achieve? What's the logic behind that?

 

If you wait for challenging enemies, then you play again with the false mind. Strip off mods and enjoy your level 30 challenge! Then you don't need to wait for lvl 80 to rip through your team. Oh wait... does your team really want to fail because of your MINDSET?

I honestly, sincerely, have no idea what you're referring to, because I never said any of those things.

 

A newbie should be able to have powerful weapons without paying millions of credits and hundreds of cores they don't have. A veteran should have the same thing, but with more variety, because they have more utility mods to put on, but they shouldn't have to reserve four or five or six slots just for "required mods". That variety is also a form of power, but with an actual choice, so there is still progression.

 

What exactly is your point, though? What do you want? I want to have endgame mobs and rewards earlier. Fewer trash mobs that only waste time. I also want "necessary mods" to be part of the weapon so they don't waste space, not for everything to be weaker for no reason. You act like enemies would just stay the same but our weapons would all suck - but the point was, they would also be changed, and we would still have power, just that we wouldn't be forced to use the same mods on every weapon for it. My "MINDSET" is that there's no point to having Serration or something as a mod because everyone uses it anyway, so its effect should be added to the weapon when it levels up.

 

I also never said multishot should be removed. Only that it should be a chance, not a guarantee, or else it's just a second Serration that gives more proc chance.

[taiiat]

-snip-

?

XP-amajiggers isn't 'hard' to get. many Game Modes do a good job, from Defense, to Survival, to Excavation, to Spy, and some Interception Nodes (as only some of them Spawn Enemies at steady rates when you're not being abusive).

hell, some non-Endless Game Modes do surprisingly well for XP. walking to each corner of the map and back to the center, and then leaving is like playing a medium Difficulty Survival Mission in terms of Enemies Killed.

may not be as time efficient, but it's a moderately similar result nonetheless.

[MantisCore]

Yes, multishot mods are clearly a big potential long term issue. Until there is an alternative scaling system for weapons I'll accept the necessary evil of Serration but beyond that the multishot mods unique in that they are absolutely amazing for pretty much every conceivable build. This is because they stack multiplicatively with everything else.

 

Whether going for burst dps, sustained dps, status or even ammo economy multishot does it all. At the same time. With no downsides. No wonder that once a multishot mod is on that weapon, it's not coming off.

 

Ultimately, do we want options to be options? Or are we ok with the illusion of choice?

[FelisImpurrator]

?

XP-amajiggers isn't 'hard' to get. many Game Modes do a good job, from Defense, to Survival, to Excavation, to Spy, and some Interception Nodes (as only some of them Spawn Enemies at steady rates when you're not being abusive).

hell, some non-Endless Game Modes do surprisingly well for XP. walking to each corner of the map and back to the center, and then leaving is like playing a medium Difficulty Survival Mission in terms of Enemies Killed.

may not be as time efficient, but it's a moderately similar result nonetheless.

Whew, bad timing... but is this equally true for solo and squad play? In my experience, in solo, everything except Spy is pretty bad until/unless you get to a point where you can actually kill things on reasonably high-level planets with the crap fodder guns or the high-forma-investment ones like Amprex. Also, I've heard that XP wasn't rebalanced at the same time enemy levels were...

 

I suppose the best comparison I can think of is archwing, where four rounds of Earth gets you maybe one rank or two, ext gives you squat, sab is maybe half a rank unless you camp the tunnels for a good long while, and Caelus will laugh off your crap weapons unless you can fit on Corrosive (rank 20 on melee with no potato or polarity). But maybe I'm not running the right missions for solo runs, or something.

[Omnimorph]

The problem with this game is basic stats that should be tied to a weapon are turned into a mod.

 

I disagree, I think that's actually one of the best things about the game.

[taiiat]

Whew, bad timing... but is this equally true for solo and squad play? In my experience, in solo, everything except Spy is pretty bad until/unless you get to a point where you can actually kill things on reasonably high-level planets.

i do a mixture, but do normally Matchmake for random Squads to make things more interesting.

alone, some Game Modes are not terribly amazing, yes. as long as your other Equipment can support the whatever you're Leveling to help funnel more XP to it, it should do okay.

spending, say, 20 minutes in a Capture Mission? yes, it's not the same as playing an Endless Mission with 4 Players for 30 minutes. still, you can get several Levels from doing such things, as long as you aren't trying to passively Level things since that doesn't work alone.

higher Level Enemies doesn't make a big difference for XP accruement, so just Missions that are decently high enough Level to Spawn many Enemies, but not high enough where you'll be unable to Kill at a decent rate.

since the recent Defense adjustments has significantly boosted the XP values of some Enemies that were previously complete poo for their threat to the Player or relative difficulty to Kill, a lot more Missions are practical now. (not just Defense ofcourse, XP values are the same between all Game Modes).

when playing alone, i don't and people shouldn't expect to get 30 Levels from a single Mission. it's not likely to happen unless you spend a lot.... of time in one Mission.

[Nako-Chan]

 

You do realize Multishot is not just a damage mod right? On soma it not only increases your damage but fills in the gaps in the spread of your shots. This is equally true for shotguns and other automatic weapons.

 

The solution then, in a world where Serration dies in a fire and Multi-Shot mods no longer multiplies damage to insane degrees?

 

Here is an example: a mod gives you +100% multishot at the cost of -50% damage. You have the same DPS, the same damage per click, but the gaps in spread are filled out. In this way multishot mods become a side-grade, a choice, a utility. All other +DPS mods should get the same treatment. If they really want choice, then they should be side-grades based on your play style and preference. Or like Vaugahn said.

 

If it's a growth system it should stop pretending to be a customization one, if it's a customization system it should stop acting like a growth one.

 

I think a lot of us would be less discontent with the system if the system knew what it even wanted to be.

[Lord_Xenon]

I honestly, sincerely, have no idea what you're referring to, because I never said any of those things.

 

A newbie should be able to have powerful weapons without paying millions of credits and hundreds of cores they don't have. A veteran should have the same thing, but with more variety, because they have more utility mods to put on, but they shouldn't have to reserve four or five or six slots just for "required mods". That variety is also a form of power, but with an actual choice, so there is still progression.

 

What exactly is your point, though? What do you want? I want to have endgame mobs and rewards earlier. Fewer trash mobs that only waste time. I also want "necessary mods" to be part of the weapon so they don't waste space, not for everything to be weaker for no reason. You act like enemies would just stay the same but our weapons would all suck - but the point was, they would also be changed, and we would still have power, just that we wouldn't be forced to use the same mods on every weapon for it. My "MINDSET" is that there's no point to having Serration or something as a mod because everyone uses it anyway, so its effect should be added to the weapon when it levels up.

 

I also never said multishot should be removed. Only that it should be a chance, not a guarantee, or else it's just a second Serration that gives more proc chance.

 

It isn't a guarantee. You have a chance to cause an additional bullet(single shot weapon) with full power. Even shotguns have a chancepellet(if it isn't a fraction of 5/10 pellets). You oversee the big picture.

If you remove for example serration(165% damage on max) and give it to the weapon, you make direct to things: You either buff them or nerf them.

But one thing is clear, the buff is for the lower end, while the nerf will likely everytime hit the upper end.

Even if you make it dependent on a pseudo mechanic like weapon rank, you just make it for newbies way to easy. A braton mk1 that hit harder as a Boltor Prime unranked??? For NOTHING they need to invest???

Yeah roflstomping the enemies with such power is yeah challenge... Second if you removed this serration mod, what do you think will then happen after your 'buff of weapon damage'? You really think, that anything else as another damage/elementmod will get the place???

If we want the truth: There is NO Endgame. You have mobs, that only scale in infinite mods. Else they are static. You have just a false picture of endgame mobs. THIS is your false mindset you bring in. Every mob can be an endgame mob, if you DON'T HAVE GEAR. Strip off all mods from all of your weapons and frames/companions. Play with a Braton mk1 and try low level stuff! THEN you will have challenge to stay alive against such trash mobs of lvl 10! And that's just without gear progression.

 

Gear progression make you harder. And you don't feel harder until you get stomped according to you. I don't want to fight 10s a mob, which is just trash of newbies only because people like you want that I don't have progression in power.

 

@Nako:

 

>>Here is an example: a mod gives you +100% multishot at the cost of -50% damage. You have the same DPS, the same damage per click, but the gaps in spread are filled out. In this way multishot mods become a side-grade, a choice, a utility. All other +DPS mods should get the same treatment. If they really want choice, then they should be side-grades based on your play style and preference. Or like Vaugahn said.<<

 

I say nope. You calculated it false/think about it in the wrong way. Just a free example:

 

100% base

+100% damage

+100% elementdamage

+100% multishot/-50% damage:

 

In total damage: 600% of the weapon's base damage.

Without your corrupted multishot:

 

100% base

+100% damage

+100% elementdamage:

 

400% weapon's base damage. A lose of 200%! of the weapon's possible damage.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Lord_Xenon

[OniDax]

DE should just make damage, melee damage (where applicable), and multi-shot mods' innate to all weapons by removing the mods and giving those weapons the stats that they currently have with those maxed mods equipped. And unlike they did when they removed ability mods, they should not remove 2 mod slots.

[Bibliothekar]

I think the easiest way to make multishot a choice instead of a necessity would be if it didn't create those additional bullets out of thin air but took them from your magazine. You want to mod your Hek for 300% multishot? Great - I hope you don't mind reloading after each shot because it takes all four instead of just one shell now. I just don't know how this could be applied to melee with stamina gone ...

[Nako-Chan]

Lord Xenon, you clearly didn't read my rather short post. There wouldn't be those +100% Damage +100% elemental damage mods either. Those extra equations you did wouldn't even happen in the first place. 

 

Edit: "All other +DPS mods should get the same treatment." Stormbringer would change the damage type of your gun to electric, and not give +damage anymore, for example.

 

Serration removed from the game entirely.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Nako-Chan

[theammostore]

Lord Xenon, you clearly didn't read my rather short post. There wouldn't be those +100% Damage +100% elemental damage mods either. Those extra equations you did wouldn't even happen in the first place. 

 

Edit: "All other +DPS mods should get the same treatment." Stormbringer would chance the damage type of your gun to electric, and not give +damage anymore, for example.

 

Serration removed from the game entirely.

I thought this was going to happen in damage 2.0 to start with, as this makes much more sense. 100 points of damage in my gun are physical, I had stormbringer and now 90 points of that damage is electric type and 10 physical. Much bigger impact to electric-vulnerable enemies but less impact to those resistant, as opposed to physical damage which is much more consistent. This is how it should be, as right now it's the same probably as before in damage 1.0 except we have to order them differently to get max benefit.

 

Multishot would do the same effect, just with an inherit bonus to status weapons and perhaps even dealing with hordes of enemies.

 

You sir are on the right track. Scale enemies accordingly to this proper damage system and we might actually have an interesting combat system

[MechaTails]

Stuff

 

That's all been brought up before and no one cares. The community at large doesn't care about balance or fixing weapons or any of that. If they really cared they'd completely stop playing warframe and giving the devs money until they address the issues.

 

Instead they gladly charge through every mission with their same grossly OP weapons of choice and complain that the game is too easy while pumping even more hours and quarters into the game.

 

Tenno. Feh.

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

That's all been brought up before and no one cares. The community at large doesn't care about balance or fixing weapons or any of that. If they really cared they'd completely stop playing warframe and giving the devs money until they address the issues.

 

Instead they gladly charge through every mission with their same grossly OP weapons of choice and complain that the game is too easy while pumping even more hours and quarters into the game.

 

Tenno. Feh.

This is pretty much my feeling.  I will never complain about a game being too easy.  I would love to sit in a T4 survival for 2 hours and just rake in all the rewards, but at my best I do 40 mins, which is NOT easy.  

 

Folks in this thread seem to have a problem with one-shotting enemies.  When I'm using Vectis prime and score a headshot, it damn well BETTER drop whatever I hit. Soma/Prime, yes, I expect the enemies will take a few more hits before they drop.  Using Fang Prime, I expect to have to work at a foe before he drops.  Using Galatine, 1-3 swings should end whatever's in front of me.  If I'm not dropping enemies with efficiency, I don't feel powerful, and that's not fun.

 

Warframe is the only game I've played where the playerbase complains about things being too powerful and wanting to nerf everything.  

 

From a development standpoint: I agree with removing straight-damage mods, as long as they're complimented/supplanted with a new system.  All of my weapons being 165% less powerful does me no good if I can't build them back up.  A mod that simply is "more damage" is lazy, and I think De sees that.

 

Multishot mods are not simply "more damage" they are a "chance at more damage" which isn't guaranteed.  Even 90% multishot doesn't mean that EVERY 9 rounds out of 10 will be effectively double-damage.  If a weapon makes the game too easy, use a different weapon.  I don't care about the numbers as much as I care about having fun.  I'll take my Galatine and Oberon over whatever OP Frame/Weapon combination is most popular, because those are the ones that are most fun to me.

[wolf96781]

Hornet strike, point blank, serration, pressure point

 

 

Those are bigger problems

[FelisImpurrator]

i do a mixture, but do normally Matchmake for random Squads to make things more interesting.

alone, some Game Modes are not terribly amazing, yes. as long as your other Equipment can support the whatever you're Leveling to help funnel more XP to it, it should do okay.

It might be your ping, but my starchart usually reads zero active squads at most given times. Just saying.

 

Multishot is guaranteed on pistols and some shotguns. It's almost that on rifles. Try again. Also, any difficulty system that relies on "remove all your equipment and charge into battle naked" so the trash enemies stop being 35 straight minutes of trash is broken. End of story. I say I want progression, you accuse me of not wanting progression. I ask you what you want out of the game, you don't answer. So what's the point of even addressing you in conversation?

 

*sigh* I have no idea what you want or need so much damage for IF ENEMY SCALING IS CHANGED other than "I like big numbers and I don't want my big numbers to go away!"

[ss4chris]

I've seen Multishot mods as a huge issue in Warframe for a long time. And I'm making this post to try and open the eyes of fellow Tenno to what is actually happening here with your weapon customization and how I think you should be getting more, by getting less.

 

To be clear I am talking about mods like Split Chamber, Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent, Hell's Chamber, Dual Rounds and even Scattered Justice. They add multishot to a weapon which is a percent chance of firing two or more bullets using only one ammo and trigger pull/cycle of the action.

 

Why do I see them as a problem?  I am an end game player. I interact with hundreds of other end game players and hundreds more mid game.  The former group has ALL multishot mods on ALL weapons. That means every primary and secondary has every applicable multishot mod on them. The former also has those mods MAX rank. The latter, meaning mid game, tend to use ALL the multishot mods, but differ in that they have them middle rank or so as they have not yet applied enough forma to their favourite weapons.

 

Let me explain what I see: On my Soma I see 7 (seven) mod slots. Not 8 (eight) slots. On my synapse, Cernos, Prisma Gorgon I have 7 mod slots. Not 8 mod slots. In fact, as far as most (Most. Not all MOST) of the end game community is concerned there is no option at all for an 8th (eighth) mod slot BECAUSE going without split chamber is NOT AN OPTION. My Hek has only 6 mod slots. If possible there is no reason on this planet I would go without Scattered Justice. The same goes for Hell's Chamber.     You understand what I'm getting at?

 

After DE acknowledged that Serration and Pressure Point are a problem, I thought they would catch onto this as well. But they're not.   In the most recent Dev Stream Scott said the idea of "multishot for melee" was cool. 

 

Just take a second to think about this.  Do any of your melee weapons NOT have Pressure Point?  If you don't have Pressure Point on all of your melee weapons I'd be inclined to doubt your understanding of Warframe as well as your end game ability.    So what you're saying is you have ONE less mod slot on all your swords.  And if there is a Melee Multishot, I won't believe the person who says they won't use it. In fact I would guarantee it's use to the point where all Melee weapons get their customizable mod slots reduced to 6 (six).

 

I am asking you to shout DE awake on this matter because it seems to be slipping their mind.  My hope for getting multishot removed was entirely reversed at hearing Scott endorse the feature for melee.

 

 

SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM

Now for those who think there is no way to fix it, or will accuse me of not proposing any alternatives, simply understand that Multi shot mods apply some very basic math to the stats of weapons. This math can be applied to the base stats of all weapons quite easily in the form of average base damage increases.    Imagine firing 100 arrows at 10 damage with a max split chamber. Just say 87 arrows were double shots, 13 were single. You're looking at 1870 damage over 100 arrows.  Now simply get rid of multishot mods and bring the base damage of that bow from 10 up to 19 (rounded from 18.7).    You see? The average damage of 100 shots was 18.7 each shot, up from the base 10 damage.  Now I understand that this could change because you may fire 100 more arrows and get 82 double shots something. But it does not make a massive difference. If you shot 100 arrows with 70 double, then fired 100 arrows with 99 double the difference in damage is only 480. So between an average of 15 and 20 base damage. It would be safe to adjust this example bow from 10 damage to about 17 damage and kill multishot.     The same thing can be done for status chance too, don't worry.    The only issue arises with Thunderbolt, which can be manually compensated to proc more often. The math would in fact suggest changing it to about 55%

 for a end game player. your reasoning is very  broad.

Like even with multishot mod without CP its hard to go through armor.

dont change Multishot mods change enemies stats or the stats/ mechanism of the  game. 

DMG 3.0 :D

[Green-Bean]

I'd love to read a response from DE on this thread. 

[FuzzyRamen]

Return to Update 9 (beta at its best) armor and health scaling at its best for survival. I don't mind the power creep, makes you want a bigger challenge for better rewards.

[Boatsniper]

How about we go one step further, and rework everything involving enemies, players, and their weapons?

 

- Remove all (or nearly all) damage and health scaling for players and enemies.

 

- Have Multishot unchanged... but ammunition consumption increases by 1 for every extra shot fired (goes with bottom point).

 

- Extra weapon ammunition is based on clips instead of whatever crap we have now. Ammunition drops give one clip instead of a static value.

 

- Elemental and Physical damage mods convert damage instead of adding it.

 

- Supplemental mods have a drawback of some sort:

    [+ Fire Rate / + Melee Speed | - Impact / - Slash / - Puncture]

    [+ Critical Chance | - Fire Rate]

    [+ Status Chance | - Magazine Capacity]

    [+ Damage | - Projectile Velocity]

    [+ Airborne Melee Speed | - Ground Melee Speed] : Imagine flipping with Jat Kittag extended and spinning in a vertical circle, like Sonic's spin jump thing.

    [+ Armor | - Mobility]

Just some examples.

- Common, Uncommon, and Rare variations of existing mods; usually have higher benefits and drawbacks at higher ranks.

 

- Warframe abilities are generally stronger, but gaining energy is a bit tougher.

 

- Enemies are now modular (variations of armor plating and types, weaponry, and utilities), but remain consistent within their tilesets.

 

- Enemies also gain new abilities and modifications the further you progress.

 

- Dual wielding can now be done with any two one-handed secondary/melee weapons. Furis and Vasto? Cestra and Brakk? Whatever; go wild. (Shooting second weapon uses alt-fire, aiming and overall accuracy reduced.)

 

- Weapons have weight! Equipping heavier armaments will greatly reduce your mobility; lighter weapons will reduce it less; unequipping weapons will offer you the best mobility. The lightest you can go is only Kogake; you're stupid fast, but can only punch things.

 

This is generally what I have it mind. There's enough enemy variety to justify the removal of vertical scaling, I believe.

[taiiat]

It might be your ping, but my starchart usually reads zero active squads at most given times. Just saying.

meh, that UI object only updates like, twice a minute at best.

it wouldn't be the first time to queue up for a Mission with 'Active Squads' and find nobody, but instantly find Squads on a Mission that's 'empty'.

-snip-

please do not confuse uninformed subjective opionions with objective facts.

It isn't a guarantee. You have a chance to cause an additional bullet

yes/no.

Rifles have a 90% Chance for 2 Projectiles.

Pistols have either a 20% Chance for 3 or an 80% Chance for 3. minimum 2.

Shotguns get exactly 2.2x the Pellets. there's no Chances save for if the result is straddling one extra Pellet, then you can have shots that have one more or less Pellets. (this only applies for Shotguns that use Shotgun Mods).

Rifles are the only ones that really feel the Randomization. the others have it much easier.

[motorfirebox]

I really think multishot should vastly decrease accuracy. Anything else, and it will still always be the best choice for every weapon.

[Keiga150]

Huh that is indeed very interesting OP. Not sure how many players run with or without those mods but i for one do run with them on every weapon i have. I have an idea that can "probably" do away with Multishot and possibly other weapon mods minus Serration since that's another problem entirely. I'm not sure what i would slot in mods like multi shot where gone.

 

Remove the mod card entirely and make it a passive ability that can be acquired via Forma. Right now Forma just adds polarity to a weapon, and some people probably already have the number of polarities they want on there favorite weapons. So why not give Forma a second function to add passive abilities to weapons like Multishot? Of course you'd have to chose one either polarize the weapon or passify? the weapon.

 

This of course brings its own issue of you must get Forma to get "X" passive for your weapon to be "good". You'd have to get a weapon to 30 over and over to get passives which might scare away some Tenno. Forces you to chose passive or polarity, Is not readily available to the smaller of Tenno. Wont fix Serration.

 

Just a random idea.

[Shadow009]

Let me explain what I see: On my Soma I see 7 (seven) mod slots. Not 8 (eight) slots. On my synapse, Cernos, Prisma Gorgon I have 7 mod slots. Not 8 mod slots. In fact, as far as most (Most. Not all MOST) of the end game community is concerned there is no option at all for an 8th (eighth) mod slot BECAUSE going without split chamber is NOT AN OPTION. My Hek has only 6 mod slots. If possible there is no reason on this planet I would go without Scattered Justice. The same goes for Hell's Chamber.    

Oh, one question.

Who or what forces you to use Split chamber? Why do you say is "NOT AN OPTION"? If using your mentality, then going without Serration/Critical mods (not in all weapons) is also "NOT AN OPTION"

One of the features of this game is letting you mod and paint your weapons as you want. Gives you freedom to do as you please. So, basically if i want to (and i have done so) I can go without Serration/Split chamber on my Braton and go with Pure elemental dmg. Who says i can't? Who Says going without Split chamber is "NOT AN OPTION"?

If you don't like using Split chamber in your build, don't use it.

-Shadow

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

yes/no.

Rifles have a 90% Chance for 2 Projectiles.

Pistols have either a 20% Chance for 3 or an 80% Chance for 3. minimum 2.

Shotguns get exactly 2.2x the Pellets. there's no Chances save for if the result is straddling one extra Pellet, then you can have shots that have one more or less Pellets. (this only applies for Shotguns that use Shotgun Mods).

Rifles are the only ones that really feel the Randomization. the others have it much easier.

Spot on, but there's no guarantee all those extra pellets will hit the intended target, which is what makes multishot on shotguns less 'straight' damage and more 'bonus' damage.