Multishot Mods Are A Problem. And It's Going To Get Worse.

[NN13]

The most simple idea would be -

 

Remove normal Damage mods and normal Multishot mods. By normal, I mean Serration, Split Chamber, Point Blank (Primed also), Hells Chamber, Hornet Strike and Barrel Diffusion.

 

Keep the corrupted mods and Lethal Torrent as it is, because these mods give us a choice.

 

Now to counter this, increase damage exactly equally. So, basically, don't nerf the overall damage we are doing now, but free up at least 2 mod slots.

 

People might say that players will just add in +90% elemental damage, but what people forget is that adding another element will change you secondary element in most cases. Therefore, you get a choice here as well. Go for more damage or go for the most suitable element type that you need.

 

Though this probably won't happen since we are getting multi-strike(this has got to be the weirdest idea I have ever heard, like really, we will deal 2 instances of damage on 1 swing, WTH).

[taiiat]

I really think multishot should vastly decrease accuracy.

hmm...

- +100% Multishot, -50% FINAL Damage.

- +100% Multishot, -50% Rate of Fire.

- +150% Multishot, +50% Spread increase per Shot -25% Accuracy.

- +200% Multishot, -50% Accuracy -25% FINAL Damage.

- +200% Multishot, -25% Accuracy +50% Recoiling Forces.

- +350% Multishot, -75% Accuracy -75% Status -50% Rate of Fire.

or a whole lot more.

ultimately, to really support these incredibly niche Playstyles that work great for this or that Player, i feel Players being able to create Mods with their own Stats would be ideal.

you'd need to pay this and that things to get the permission to create a Mod for yourself - so that there's still some time investment involved.

but it would let you add positive and negative facets to a Mod, and drag Sliders to where you want a certain positive or negative to be, and the other facets would automatically adjust to balance compensate.

want a Damage Mod that's +1000% Damage? well, you'll need to put on minimum 2 Negatives, and those Negatives are going to be pretty nasty.

Et Cetera.

to keep Players from cheesing with certain Stat types, Crits could go Negative, Accuracy can go as low as a 179° Spread, Status can go Negative(percent Chance to do the opposite of what it would normally do! yes, increasing Armor, adding or multiplying Health, making resistant or immune to CC for a short time, Et Cetera - obviously some serious fine tuning would be necessary here to keep Players from taking advantage of making Enemies more difficult. probably cap it to their original maximum Health and such, so Negative Viral or DoT would just Heal them, rather than making them have infinite Health).

-snip-

probably that if you use 8 Elementals, you have... atleast 20x LESS Damage than if you used Multishot and Base Damage with some Elementals.

that's a big difference. Players opting to take a bit less Damage for Utility Mods of sorts is expected, as the difference isn't that huge. but either Killing with one or two Bullets or Killing with 30-60? it's really hard to justify that.

Edited September 1, 2015 by taiiat

[Bibliothekar]

Folks in this thread seem to have a problem with one-shotting enemies.

They have a problem with being one-shot by enemies. No, wait, wrong thread.

 

Multishot mods are not simply "more damage" they are a "chance at more damage" which isn't guaranteed.  Even 90% multishot doesn't mean that EVERY 9 rounds out of 10 will be effectively double-damage.

Actually yes, it does. Unless they secretly changed the way multishot is calculated. It used to just add up the chance and each time you're over 100%, tadaa, second bullet. So with a 90% Split Chamber, the first bullet would be singular, the next would be two (because 90%+90%=180% -> create second bullet, keep 80%) and so on until the eleventh bullet, which would be singular again (bullet ten is 10%+90%=100% -> second bullet, carry 0%).

And on shotguns it just creates additional pellets. Say you have Hek which has 7 pellets. Each level of Hell's Chamber (20%) roughly equals one additional pellet. Constantly.

 

Who or what forces you to use Split chamber?

The way damage is calculated at the moment. Multishot is the best way to double your damage per shot. And because it's calculated on top of everything else, that makes a huge difference. And once in the mission, it comes at absolutely no cost, because those additional bullets are conjured out of some pocket dimension instead of taken from your magazine.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Bibliothekar

[Valkyrion]

how about we remove serration and multishot, and just let the gun base damage upgrades over time by when their level rises, kinda like shield and health on warframes.

[FelisImpurrator]

meh, that UI object only updates like, twice a minute at best.

it wouldn't be the first time to queue up for a Mission with 'Active Squads' and find nobody, but instantly find Squads on a Mission that's 'empty'.

I've tried it - my ping hits the 300 cap dead easily, it just yoinks straight into Waiting for Players 3/4 of the time.

 

Wait. You're suggesting... meta-modding? Modding your mods?

 

That's... amazing. It's something that's rarely seen, and as a huge fan of upgrade systems in general, I love the concept.

 

It's also something that sounds hideously difficult to actually code and balance. So if they like it and could pull it off, sure, but it would take a hell of a long time.

The way damage is calculated at the moment. Multishot is the best way to double your damage per shot. And because it's calculated on top of everything else, that makes a huge difference. And once in the mission, it comes at absolutely no cost, because those additional bullets are conjured out of some pocket dimension instead of taken from your magazine.

On an unrelated note, what would be the point of multishot if it drew from your ammo pool, besides only making it useful on low-ROF weapons? Automatics would generally have to avoid it like the plague (dat 210 spare ammo on secondaries), and in general there aren't many weapons where you couldn't just fire twice, so that seems as though it would nerf multishot from essential to nearly useless in an instant. Except on shotguns, probably. Or on guns that are so slow you need to unload the mag in half the time.

[taiiat]

Modding your mods?

On an unrelated note, what would be the point of multishot if it drew from your ammo pool

kind've, i guess.

i imagine there'd be a basic Set of Mods like we have now, and Dual Stat/ Corrupted Mods wouldn't exist. instead, you must create your own Mods if you want more/less than the basic Mods.

alternatively, or preferably i guess, Corrupted Mods would be the only Mods that exist, and you can create your own Mods that do whatever if you want something more, more complex, or different.

even letting you create Mods which only give stat increases and no negatives, but the stat increase would be pretty low to compensate.

(by the by, if you really like that idea, take a look at 'Popup Dungeon'. that game is doing exactly that. create Abilities, Weapons, whatever - all completely from scratch. add anything and anything to create anything. add situational aspects to something to make it more powerful, or sacrifice power to make it easier to use. Et Cetera. pretty much anything you can think of can be used as an effect to affect your Equipment).

and for more technical excellence, their previous game, 'Ring Runner: Flight of the Sages' is a beautiful masterpiece of a skill based Space game. i'm a huge nitpicking bastard - and this game leaves me almost completely speechless, almost nothing to complain about. all complaints are trivial things, no major complaints about Gameplay.

if i've got you interested in this one, i have a brief review posted on Steam.

- - - - -

could work in that ideal situation where you can create your own Mods. Multishot would by default consume extra Ammunition, and have relatively mild Negatives due to consuming extra Ammunition.

but you could have it create magic bullets, but with much more significant Negatives.

ofcourse, that's not what that person is suggesting, but it's what i'm saying.

and yes, consuming extra Ammunition does relegate it to only being used on Weapons which are Ammunition Efficient in the first place.

*imagines using 3x Multishot on Wraith Vipers when it consumes 3x the Ammo*

:|

Edited September 1, 2015 by taiiat

[StratosOmega]

I don't think that DMG&Multishot mods are a hindrance at all, but I am still able to see that other people would like to stick more mods into their weapons. At first I thought "we need more slots" like I always said before we got the exilus slot (I was hoping for 4 additional slots at that time though).

 

So, here we are again, two sides of a coin. One side wants more slots to compensate the space, the other one wants the usual suspects to be gone.

I think this is really a thing, where "focus" should kick in. Imo, the higher the weapon level is, the higher should be its dmg and passive multishot chance. Maybe some weapons should have better growth rates then others, that could juice up some older weapons as well.

[Kayblis]

If you seriously believe DE will make up for the removal of multishot mods then you're delusional as F***. Look at coptering, did we get anything to make up for its removal? Hell no, parkour 2.0 is extremely slow compared to coptering and its faster to just run with rush and never bother with it unless you're jumping up.

[Lord_Xenon]

Only two big things stand out in this thread:

 

Big buffing for newbies while extrem nerfing veterans/pros.

Q.Q in different words for more modsslots. Else there are no arguments thrown out in this thread to justify a change.

[Ocaz]

Base damage and mutlishot mods are not a problem. The way they discussed making a different way to boost damage is. Getting bonus damage on an enemy who is unaware of you or something of that nature. Basically extremely specific scenarios will give bonus damage is what DE talked about. That sounds awful and too technical for an action game. Base damage boosts are good for an action game. Keeps things simple and easy to understand without having to apply 900 different strategies to get a slight boost against a couple of enemies. It'd turn each enemy into a chore rather than a threat. And a crowd something to flee from instead of tough out. It's an action game not a strategy game. If they come up with something that works and feels better then sure. But their current rework archetype is not very good.

[SilentMobius]

The mistake the OP has made is in the assumption that the mod system should be 100% for customization, it's isn't and IMHO shouldn't be

 

The mod system is for customization and global gear progression.

 

Serration and multishot are not "limiting customization" they are in fact not part of customization at all they are part of progression.

 

Just like "level" in other games, serration is a character-wide damage buff for a specific type of weapon. It's actually a very clever way of doing progression, allowing a very interesting scaling of additional gear.

 

In other games:

* If you get a global damage buff then new weapons get 100% of the buff. Making experienced characters immediately stronger with the same new weapon

* If you get an earn-able damage buff per weapon then everyone starts at the same level but veterans become frustrated that the need to earn the buff again for every new weapon, meaning they have a stronger tenancy to stick with one weapon.

* Warframe allows already earned progression (serration/multishot) to carry over onto new weapons but attenuates how much of the buff can be applied until you have used the weapon somewhat, with catalysts an/or forma mitigating that even further.

 

This combination of character-progression and customization in one system is actually very interesting, it makes the forma-cycle of high-end improvement much more bearable.

 

I strongly disagree that removing multi-shot and serration-style mods would improve the game.

[FelisImpurrator]

 

These ideas are beautiful and terrible. Beautiful because they'd make Mods 3.0 exactly what the system was meant to be in the first place - a way to grant people freedom of customization instead of railroading them into one or two fixed builds. Terrible because, again, this would be an unholy code overhaul.

 

...make a full Fan Concept thread and I'll get in line to throw in the +1s.

 

Popup Dungeon... sounds amazing. I have played a BIT of Ring Runner, enough to know I want to legit buy it because it's great (although I suck at it). I'll try to fix my lack of that game this week, considering there's a sale.

The mistake the OP has made is in the assumption that the mod system should be 100% for customization, it's isn't and IMHO shouldn't be

 

The mod system is for customization and global gear progression.

Except the problem is that it's roughly 80% progression and 20% customization. Consider the sheer volume of "mandatory" mods. Damage, multishot, elements, crit on crit weapons. It gets to the point where you have two or three slots left. That's the imbalance.

[Lord_Xenon]

These ideas are beautiful and terrible. Beautiful because they'd make Mods 3.0 exactly what the system was meant to be in the first place - a way to grant people freedom of customization instead of railroading them into one or two fixed builds. Terrible because, again, this would be an unholy code overhaul.

 

...make a full Fan Concept thread and I'll get in line to throw in the +1s.

 

Popup Dungeon... sounds amazing. I have played a BIT of Ring Runner, enough to know I want to legit buy it because it's great (although I suck at it). I'll try to fix my lack of that game this week, considering there's a sale.

Except the problem is that it's roughly 80% progression and 20% customization. Consider the sheer volume of "mandatory" mods. Damage, multishot, elements, crit on crit weapons. It gets to the point where you have two or three slots left. That's the imbalance.

 

Why call you it imbalance? You just refuse to use the forbidden 'I WANT MORE SLOTS DE'. Nothing else is your post about.

[Shiichibukai]

I dont see why ppl are still going on about this...I dont see a problem with the damage mods are you even gonna use half the other weapon mods? Even without having to slot serration etc? I think not. Multi shot okay i agree CAN be a little weird but I dont agree with serration. If anything they should just tweak split chamber etc and leave serration as it is. I dont wanna run around and shoot a level 10 mob 20 times before it dies...not the point of a fast paced game

[Ailissa]

The only way to change that would be to remove mods completely and that's going too far.

 

You remove the need for multishot and another "must have" mod will take it's place.

 

Remove the need for the next mod and yet another "must have" mod will take it's place.

 

So on and so forth until you've removed every weapon mod in the game.

[(XBOX)BAMMM Lightning]

The entire modding system in general seems to need a rework. It's a good concept don't get me wrong, but some of the stuff we are modding FOR is what causes the problem. Because we HAVE to mod for damage, that leaves little to no room for other utility mods like faster reload or decreased recoil. The few instances these bonuses are seen is when they are part of a dual mod, where it is accompanied by another damage mod. 

 

I'm on the side of the fence that mods like Serration and Split Chamber should be removed but have their potential DPS added to the weapons innately. That will leave a lot more room for mods that affect the weapon's behavior like increasing magazine size or reducing noise. Mods like Heavy Caliber can stay since they provide a benefit for a cost, but maybe decrease the damage bonus since they will be dealing with a higher base damage. Elementals can stay as well.

 

When a majority of the modding space is taken up by required mods, it kind of defeats the purpose of the modding system, which is supposed to promote player choice. This will probably affect certain powers like Exalted Blade, but I'm sure a solution can be conjured as well. 

[Transientmind]

Yeah, I'm really wary of anyone who tries to claim that mods are problematic because everyone considers them non-optional mandatory.

 

You know who started thinking like that? WoW, about their talent trees.  They decided that talent trees needed an overhaul because the cookie-cutter builds were so universally reliant on several skills considered non-optional that there wasn't really much 'customization' involved at all.  

 

It meant that talent trees were eventually relegated to a very sparse and highly-limited selection of largely ineffectual fluff options with not much impact on gameplay, out of the fear that people might nerf themselves otherwise. 

 

We lost something, there.  I don't believe it was a good change.  I would prefer not to see the same happen to mods.  There's still a lot going on with the goal and cost of ranking up your 'non-optional's vs power cost vs how to effectively polarize for speedier ranking of your favourite gun...  Maybe let's not trim all that down to a scant handful of largely cosmetic and inconsequential decisions that are STILL cookie-cutter.

 

You will never, ever, ever remove the 'problem' of certain builds being considered essential without making everything blandly identical.  Internet people optimize knowledge.  Happens in everything.  Deal with it. 

Edited September 1, 2015 by Transientmind

[Kestral9999]

How do you see seven mod slots when you have to factor in for Multishot and +Base Damage mods?

[Arachne.]

honestly the only people ive seen complain about the mod system is people that dont understand how to utilize it, tha game in and of itself is fun and modding for harddr level mobs has reward, the higher mobs really are harder even with all the mods, as for the story, its still constantly being added to and tweaked, warframe is an ever changing game. its not complete but its also not bad. as they keep rolling out updates, they add reworks to missions, changes to bosses, and even new mobs and events, if the only thing you would get out of it are some sigil or badge, it wouldnt make it rewarding, so adding in powerful uniqe mods that are stronger than normal. only makes it better, and the community has a large influence on how the game turns out, this post seams like a " i just dont enjoy the game and want it to be a different game" more than a " i think we could make it better" post

[CY13ERPUNK]

Yeah, I'm really wary of anyone who tries to claim that mods are problematic because everyone considers them non-optional mandatory.

 

You know who started thinking like that? WoW, about their talent trees.  They decided that talent trees needed an overhaul because the cookie-cutter builds were so universally reliant on several skills considered non-optional that there wasn't really much 'customization' involved at all.  

 

It meant that talent trees were eventually relegated to a very sparse and highly-limited selection of largely ineffectual fluff options with not much impact on gameplay, out of the fear that people might nerf themselves otherwise. 

 

We lost something, there.  I don't believe it was a good change.  I would prefer not to see the same happen to mods.  There's still a lot going on with the goal and cost of ranking up your 'non-optional's vs power cost vs how to effectively polarize for speedier ranking of your favourite gun...  Maybe let's not trim all that down to a scant handful of largely cosmetic and inconsequential decisions that are STILL cookie-cutter.

 

You will never, ever, ever remove the 'problem' of certain builds being considered essential without making everything blandly identical.  Internet people optimize knowledge.  Happens in everything.  Deal with it. 

 

while u have some valid points, u are basing it all on the presumption that no system can be made that doesnt slip into the same pitfalls

 

i disagree with that assumption

 

and there have been several very well explained and thought-out ideas about how to remove or replace the 'serrations' from the mods while still giving the players even more build variety over the years on the forums

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

The only way to change that would be to remove mods completely and that's going too far.

You remove the need for multishot and another "must have" mod will take it's place.

Remove the need for the next mod and yet another "must have" mod will take it's place.

So on and so forth until you've removed every weapon mod in the game.

This can be disproven by so many different games with customization options. Heck, even in this game it can be disproven. Do you prefer Firestorm or an elemental on launcher weapons? Do you use punch through mods? Would you rather have Wildfire or Thermite Rounds? Do you use Berserker on most of your melee weapons? Do you find Critical Delay or Hammer Shot worthwhile? Do you prefer max damage or dual stat elementals? Do you use faction specific mods? What PVP mods do you use?

Point is, there are only about 12 mods per class that would need reworking or removing (Serration, heavy cal, elementals, multi shot, and their secondary/melee equivalents). Player preference would play a bigger role, but none of it matters next to "these mod allows your weapon to actually damage enemies", something everyone needs on every weapon. Everyone doesn't need faster reloads, less recoil, larger magazines, etc.

Edited September 1, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[A1CZERO]

Even if that's true, it still needs work. If it's a growth system it should stop pretending to be a customization one, if it's a customization system it should stop acting like a growth one.

 

The best quote in here.

 

 Nerfing things is never the solution.  The only thing you can do is make everything else on par.

 

The dumbest quote in here.

[Azamagon]

The best solution? Exilus slots (multiple ones)

 

No really. I find that to be the best solution. We can keep progression mods (Serration, Multishot, Damage mods, Punchthrough, Fire Rate) AND allow the use of customization mods (Reload, Magsize, Ammo reserves, Recoil, Ammo mutation, Silencer, Zoom, Whatever-else-utility) at once.

 

If everything moddable (Warframes, Archwings, Weapons, Companions etc) had MULTIPLE Exilus slots, like 3 of them, NOT tied to grinding (while a 4th slot could perhaps be unlocked with the item from Simaris?), which had their OWN seperate modpoint pool (30 points at max rank, unaffected by Reactor/Catalysts?), then there would be no need to remove mods like Serration and similar (they could still require some toning down though, along with toning down enemy defenses, for an overall better and more healthy scaling).

Edited September 1, 2015 by Azamagon

[motorfirebox]

Why call you it imbalance? You just refuse to use the forbidden 'I WANT MORE SLOTS DE'. Nothing else is your post about.

I don't want more slots. I'd we had more slots, they'd just get filled up with more damage mods. Suddenly we'd all be using faction damage mods or those 25% puncture mods.

What I want is choices that require some thought, some real cost-benefit analysis. I want a real choice between multishot and something else that might fit my playstyle better.

More slots won't do that. Only more interesting mods will.

Edited September 1, 2015 by motorfirebox

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

The best quote in here.

 

 

The dumbest quote in here.

I appreciate the attention :) 

The philosophy of not nerfing things come from Blizzard devs - not me-  highly succesful devs in games with massive customization systems and arsenals, call me dumb - but I got it from them.  

You can call me dumb, but you can't call Blizzard dumb as one of the most successful video game developers out there.

"I remember a GDC talk by Blizzard’s Rob Pardo where he outlined a concept any MMO designer should be familiar with. “Always balance up,” he said, talking about both World of Warcraft and Diablo 2 (this was a while ago). If you find something in your game that feels overpowered, that’s good. Players will enjoy it. The solution is never to remove that feeling of power, but to power up other things in the game to meet it. When you weaken your most fun tools, you push everything into a mushy middle. Better to explode everything out into weird and new directions by enabling the players."

 

Edited September 1, 2015 by (PS4)lagrue