Multishot Mods Are A Problem. And It's Going To Get Worse.

[light_ryuzaki]

soo why not make an utility slot like for weapons , and put it there,but change the way it's working a little bit

[Rebellis]

I think it's great we can do 100k damage against level 3 enemies.

 

A game that let's you do that is perfectly balanced.

 

GG devs. Don't listen to anyone. You're system is expertly designed.

[motorfirebox]

And again short thinking on your end. Else you nerf or you buff. But this thread is about removing it. If the drawbacks are easy compensated, they can enhance it without any cost. If the power they give is to weak, you nerf just the veterans. Where is the improvement??? I don't see it.

Nothing in my post can be reasonably construed as a buff or a nerf.

[Phatose]

I think it's great we can do 100k damage against level 3 enemies.

 

A game that let's you do that is perfectly balanced.

 

GG devs. Don't listen to anyone. You're system is expertly designed.

 

Pretty solid game design, actually, with a long heritage.  Back in D&D you could reasonably expect a 45x damage output increase - from leveling alone - on the game's lower level enemies, as a fighter, who doesn't scale very well at all.

 

Figure your THAC0 goes up, and you go from hitting on a 15+ to hitting on anything except a 1, and your number of attacks per round will increase from 1 to 3 as you level.  That's before considering your equipment improving, and the drastic effect that would have.  And to say nothing of casters, who go from a puny magic missile a day to spells that kill everything in 50', 9 times per day.

[Ezariel]

I think it's great we can do 100k damage against level 3 enemies.

 

A game that let's you do that is perfectly balanced.

 

GG devs. Don't listen to anyone. You're system is expertly designed.

 

Well said.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

I think it's great we can do 100k damage against level 3 enemies.

 

A game that let's you do that is perfectly balanced.

 

GG devs. Don't listen to anyone. You're system is expertly designed.

Not sure if sarcasm or not. 

But it makes me think of Destiny where a level 34 player still has to get 2-3 shots in on a level 2 enemy to kill them... that seems plain wrong.

We could have that instead - and I'm really glad we don't.

Edited September 2, 2015 by (PS4)lagrue

[Bibliothekar]

So instead of giving options, you force the player into a specific way forever? And what if he made a mistake? Sorry no. Such a $&*&*#(%& system isn't helpful.

Who said it would be permanent? In Diablo you can change your skills and runes at any point for free, in Skyforge you have to pay a small amount of a special resource to reset. Which are about as easy to come by as Nano Spores. In Warframe, if they chose not to let us do it for free, you might have to pay a few hundred credits, or a Control Module, or a handful of Circuits. Something that everyone with a couple hundred hours has more than enough of.

[Rebellis]

It's not multishot that's the problem.

 

It's a broken system that still let's you play against low level enemies, regardless of the amount of damage or survivability you've obtained through modding.

 

There's no sense of proper scaling, and honestly, it's a system that's reached its tipping point.

 

Planet missions become easy, and in endless missions you must wait 30 or 45 minutes before enemies finally do scale to your level.

 

Mastery rank needs to be on a per Warframe basis, and tied to its abilities (which should be a skill tree), as well as tied to enemy scaling. Drop the mod system for weapons altogether (except for elemental modding), and have them scale based on whichever MR you were when you acquired them. Enemy health/armor and damage would need re-tweaking, but for example, if you have a MR 30 Frost, then you have 30 points to apply to his skill tree however you see fit and the enemies you face will range between level 28 - 35. When playing co-op enemies scale based on the highest level player in the squad. That favorite weapon you acquired at MR 24 won't cut it versus level 30 baddies, so farming for a new one becomes a thing. No more blowing through level 6 enemies with a 5 forma Atomos that you applied in a single day because of Draco.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Rebellis

[Lord_Xenon]

Who said it would be permanent? In Diablo you can change your skills and runes at any point for free, in Skyforge you have to pay a small amount of a special resource to reset. Which are about as easy to come by as Nano Spores. In Warframe, if they chose not to let us do it for free, you might have to pay a few hundred credits, or a Control Module, or a handful of Circuits. Something that everyone with a couple hundred hours has more than enough of.

 

Sure... I spending minutes to reskill for one mission. Oh wait... My teammates want another mission and need to rechange. NO.

Such systems are awful. For that we have loadouts! Oh playing against Grineer? Switch your skills first! Oh Corpus? AGAIN! Orokin? AGAIN! Infested? AGAIN! That's what I call a NO-CHOICE-SYSTEM. You are forced into one way and then you have to pay for it. Doesn't matter if it's your money, time or time.

[Rebellis]

Sure... I spending minutes to reskill for one mission. Oh wait... My teammates want another mission and need to rechange. NO.

Such systems are awful. For that we have loadouts! Oh playing against Grineer? Switch your skills first! Oh Corpus? AGAIN! Orokin? AGAIN! Infested? AGAIN! That's what I call a NO-CHOICE-SYSTEM. You are forced into one way and then you have to pay for it. Doesn't matter if it's your money, time or time.

 

Having to constantly switch between so many loadouts is a clear sign of bad game design.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Rebellis

[Lord_Xenon]

Having to switch between so many loadouts is a clear sign of bad game design.

 

Correct. And such BS was suggested from him... But your suggestion is even worse.

 

What happen to those groups, that don't have the exact same gear?

Helping newbies --> lvl 50 mobs against them because the lvl 50 player want to help out... Useless!

What happen to groups want to play together? Difference in gear make it very unhandy to handle the mobs.

What happen to the multiple farmings? No help possible!

 

So what's the benefit of your system? Illness on all ends! Noone is helped with such one. And you just annoy all. Especially veterans. They maybe don't want to fight hard stuff??? Why they use progression??? That they are the same weak player they were from the begin??? To have it EASIER not HARDER!

[Rebellis]

Correct. And such BS was suggested from him... But your suggestion is even worse.

 

What happen to those groups, that don't have the exact same gear?

Helping newbies --> lvl 50 mobs against them because the lvl 50 player want to help out... Useless!

What happen to groups want to play together? Difference in gear make it very unhandy to handle the mobs.

What happen to the multiple farmings? No help possible!

 

So what's the benefit of your system? Illness on all ends! Noone is helped with such one. And you just annoy all. Especially veterans. They maybe don't want to fight hard stuff??? Why they use progression??? That they are the same weak player they were from the begin??? To have it EASIER not HARDER!

 

None of that has been a problem in the games I've played that have a real progression system.

 

Let's just take your example of helping newbies. If you're level 50 and a lower level player wants to tag along, then the tremendous amount of XP that's shared from the higher level enemies would mean they level up faster. Also the higher level loot is worth more if they want to sell it or they can keep it for when they reach that level. Sure, it may be difficult for them stay alive and a challenge for the veteran to keep them alive, but no reward is without its risk.

 

I think that is much more helpful than what we have right now, which is a veteran player with OP weapons joins the squad and blows through all the level 12 enemies on some alert and everyone gets the same reward. That's not what I call progression. Especially, if you can get veteran players to taxi you to alerts or any mission you want all the time.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Rebellis

[Lord_Xenon]

None of that has been a problem in the games I've played that have a real progression system.

 

Let's just take your example of helping newbies. If you're level 50 and a lower level player wants to tag along, then the tremendous amount of XP that's shared from the higher level enemies would mean they level up faster. Also the higher level loot is worth more if they want to sell it or they can keep it for when they reach that level. Sure, it may be difficult for them stay alive and a challenge for the veteran to keep them alive, but no reward is without its risk.

 

I think that is much more helpful than what we have right now, which is a veteran player with OP weapons joins the squad and blows through all the level 12 enemies on some alert and everyone gets the same reward. That's not what I call progression. Especially, if you can get veteran players to taxi you to alerts or any mission you want all the time.

 

So instead of focusing to kill the stuff, I need to babysit the newbie??? Sorry, but this is a bad move. And how does the newbie will feel with no impact to the win? Especially such a system can easily be exploited(use configs, that seem 'weak' but are stronger as they are rated). Huge downgrade for no benefit out of ego-challenge.(What you describe with your text about equal/stronger mobs with everything you have)

 

And for me it's progression if I run through early content with ease instead of the hassle it caused before.

 

Your system bring NOTHING, just frustration. 0/10 rating from me.

[Rebellis]

And how does the newbie will feel with no impact to the win?

 

How about you tell me because right now a veteran player can unlock all the planets for a new player in one afternoon of playing.

 

I can also trade to that new player a Boltor Prime, Lex Prime, and an Orthos Prime which he can then take to Draco or some T2D's by taxi and apply 4 or 5 forma that evening, and never need any other weapons the entire time he plays Warframe.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Rebellis

[Rebellis]

And, if you need more proof progression is currently a joke, I know people who make a second or even a third account and rank them to just MR 2 (because that's all you need to unlock some decent weapons), and use those accounts to run multiple Raids per day, which is suppose to be high level veteran player content. They trade the arcanes to their high level account, keep the ones they want, and sell the rest.

[Lord_Xenon]

How about you tell me because right now a veteran player can unlock all the planets for a new player in one afternoon of playing.

 

I can also trade to that new player a Boltor Prime, Lex Prime, and an Orthos Prime which he can then take to Draco or some T2D's by taxi and apply 4 or 5 forma that evening, and never need any other weapons the entire time he plays Warframe.

 

What's the relation of scaling enemies and your post now? I don't see the reason out of calling the player - stay away from every enemy or I need to grap you up - because he need 10y for a single mob and I need 3 rockets instead of 20s for him and 1s for me. And buying gear is part of the game.

 

And taking persons to Defense would be a huge waste of time, because you have a hard time to fight the mobs and the newbie can do what? Right! Standing away and trying to spam cc to be a bit helpful. AND then your flawed system shows again its face: What happen with your scaling? What happen after Wave 4/20/20 minutes???? Do they scale even HIGHER so we can't really do a mission long??? Or do they remain on the same level forever independent of the progression in missionobjective??? And what is then the extractpoint? 10000billion mobs to overhelm the group??? Sorry, but such a system is flawed, unfunny and dishelpful!

 

Because you avoid the editing button: Nope this isn't a proof of a false system(not in the way you think). The only point there is: It's flawed to allow multiple accounts played from the same computer/network. And the trials are about CC and nothing else. Even with your scaling system it would be easy and especially again EXPLOITABLE.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Lord_Xenon

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

How about you tell me because right now a veteran player can unlock all the planets for a new player in one afternoon of playing.

 

I can also trade to that new player a Boltor Prime, Lex Prime, and an Orthos Prime which he can then take to Draco or some T2D's by taxi and apply 4 or 5 forma that evening, and never need any other weapons the entire time he plays Warframe.

That's highly subjective and situational.  A veteran player can certainly unlock all the planets for a new player in one afternoon; just taxi the newbie to each boss, and wipe them out.  

 

But what if this new player prefers bows? Sniping? I have a boltor prime that I never use because I prefer most other guns over it.  My favorite weapon is the Galatine, unlocked at MR3, which a newbie can't get to on one frame and 3 weapons.  Those 3 weapons are great, but unless you're going to give him all 24 "required" mods AND fusion cores, AND Reactors and catalysts, there's no way someone would want to get to Pluto and not experience any other part of the game.

 

I agree that the Mod system is counter-intuitive, but I wouldn't say that it's as unbalanced and broken as all that.  Or maybe I just don't understand the "meta" all that well.

 

Regardless, I feel like there's no reason to remove straight damage mods, unless De compensates by applying that damage bonus to the weapons.  I guess you're a super-good L33T player, but as for me: I suffered when I tried to play solo, and it was a long haul before I got any semblance of how to play this game properly.

[theammostore]

How they restrict the game? They doesn't. They enhance you in a way, that you can play the game further as you normally would ever can!

By making the number of mandatory mods small? That's how they restrict. If I want to be optimal, I have, HAVE to use these mods, which in turn restricts what I use and the number of free slots that I have. If multishot becomes something along the lines of 'split the damage evenly among all shots and only the damage' then you have a higher chance to proc statuses, get crits etc. And if we redo the elemental system where instead of just adding damage it converts a percentage of damage that already exists and then scale enemies around this new system we have something that's actually worthwhile and not a growth system in disguise like we have now.

[Bibliothekar]

Correct. And such BS was suggested from him...

Wait, I suggested the status quo? Huh ... Didn't know that.

Also, a well designed skill-tree (or similar) system might even need less time to change for different missions or enemy types than having to go through that multitude of mods we have right now. This is what the fully unlocked skill sheet for Skyforge's Paladin looks like. Each column corresponds to one skill slot at the bottom (some slots have only one skill that goes into them and thusly are preset), in the box on the right are talents (comparable to augments). If I need to reskill, I click on "Reset", pay those 60 (or less - depends on how much you've unlocked) tokens, and it takes just one click to switch a skill (two in the case of the last column and the talents, because I have to unselect another one first). No scrolling, no searching - it all fits on a single screen. And when I'm done, another click to save my current selection and I'm ready to go.

 

Also, this has absolutely nothing to do with the problem of multishot mods any more.

[Lord_Xenon]

Wait, I suggested the status quo? Huh ... Didn't know that.

Also, a well designed skill-tree (or similar) system might even need less time to change for different missions or enemy types than having to go through that multitude of mods we have right now. This is what the fully unlocked skill sheet for Skyforge's Paladin looks like. Each column corresponds to one skill slot at the bottom (some slots have only one skill that goes into them and thusly are preset), in the box on the right are talents (comparable to augments). If I need to reskill, I click on "Reset", pay those 60 (or less - depends on how much you've unlocked) tokens, and it takes just one click to switch a skill (two in the case of the last column and the talents, because I have to unselect another one first). No scrolling, no searching - it all fits on a single screen. And when I'm done, another click to save my current selection and I'm ready to go.

 

Also, this has absolutely nothing to do with the problem of multishot mods any more.

 

I only read russian on your posted link...

It takes... 10s at max to rush through 4 weapons(primary, secondary and sentinel one) for all 3 faction layouts. I doubt, that your skill system beat this. And what's the relation to the multishot mod? The complete system.

 

As I said:

 

Buff of the newbies and/or nerf of the veterans.

Q.Q in other words for 'DE give us more slots'.

 

Your skill system is clunky and take way longer as our current one. And it isn't even so flexibel(if you rank up from a forma and so on to put different rank mods into it). I don't see any advantage in yours or any other 'change/remove/different suggestion' I had read in this forum. And no real response to the mentioned drawbacks.

[Omnimorph]

So just let the unhealthy design continue regardless of the outcome? I would hope not. These mods severely restrict the potential of the game, addicting or not. There are other ways to get people to like the game. For example, making a good game that doesn't require these sorts of addiction tactics and is made to be fun just because it hits all the right notes.

 

It's not "unhealthy" in this context, and it's also fun - i.e. it's addictive because it's fun, to (e.g.) gradually rank up Serration, and to finally achieve max rank in it.  It's certainly one of several things that kept me going through the game for a while.

 

You see your damage (one of the main things you "do" in any game) climbing because of your own direct efforts.  If your damage were either fixed, or increments given to you automatically at rank-up, that would be very, very dull by comparison.

Having to constantly switch between so many loadouts is a clear sign of bad game design.

 

Again, it is so totally not.  It is excellent game design, because it requires thought and effort to min-max your damage according to different circumstances.

 

Bad game design is where you have a one-size-fits-all build.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Omnimorph

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

Having to constantly switch between so many loadouts is a clear sign of bad game design.

 

Again, it is so totally not.  It is excellent game design, because it requires thought and effort to min-max your damage according to different circumstances.

 

Bad game design is where you have a one-size-fits-all build.

Yeah, I meant to address this earlier: how is having to switch between loadouts:

A) A sign of bad game design?

B) A CLEAR sign of bad game design?

 

I honestly want to know. Games that are designed poorly have what's called "most efficient means," where people will spam one move or one weapon or one item until they win the whole game.  Arguably, Dynasty Warriors has this problem, where its upgrades are purely superficial.

 

Warframe requires you to pick different frames and weapons for different situations.  You wouldn't use a Banshee for a solo defense, you wouldn't use Frost for exterminate.  You CAN, that's the joy of the flexibility of the game, but you often DON'T because you know other frames are better-suited for that (unless you like a particular frame/weapon set).  Impact weapons against the Infested are pretty much a bad idea, but if you love your Jat Kittag, NOTHING is stopping you from using it, though you're more likely to pick a slash-based weapon to maximize your damage.

 

Tell me again, how varying loadouts is a bad design decision? 

[Rebellis]

But what if this new player prefers bows? Sniping? I have a boltor prime that I never use because I prefer most other guns over it.  My favorite weapon is the Galatine, unlocked at MR3, which a newbie can't get to on one frame and 3 weapons.  Those 3 weapons are great, but unless you're going to give him all 24 "required" mods AND fusion cores, AND Reactors and catalysts, there's no way someone would want to get to Pluto and not experience any other part of the game.

 

Potatoes are in the market, and getting those required mods (even ranked ones) is pretty easy.

 

It's nothing $40 worth of platinum, a few Raid missions for credits, and an evening in the Trade channel couldn't solve.

 

 

Again, it is so totally not.  It is excellent game design, because it requires thought and effort to min-max your damage according to different circumstances.

 

Bad game design is where you have a one-size-fits-all build.

 

No, it's horrible. One size fits all is basically what we have now.

 

With warframes, you mod for just 4 things - strength, duration, range, efficiency, and that's it. The utility slot is there, but you'll need to commit further to a build by applying even more forma use it.

 

With weapons, you apply the 3 - 5 required mods for it, and then your elemental/status mods. That's it.

 

There are 30+ warframes and 200+ weapons in the game, but they all end up with the same cookie-cutter builds - a duration build, a max range build, magnetic + toxin for Corpus - it's all the same. They released new weapons today, and you know what? People are just going to mod them the same way they do all their other weapons. One size fits all.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Rebellis

[Omnimorph]

No, it's horrible. One size fits all is basically what we have now.

 

With warframes, you mod for just 4 things - strength, duration, range, efficiency, and that's it. The utility slot is there, but you'll need to commit further to a build by applying even more forma use it.

 

With weapons, you apply the 3 - 5 required mods for it, and then your elemental/status mods. That's it.

 

There are 30+ warframes and 200+ weapons in the game, but they all end up with the same cookie-cutter builds - a duration build, a max range build, magnetic + toxin for Corpus - it's all the same. They released new weapons today, and you know what? People are just going to mod them the same way they do all their other weapons. One size fits all.

 

Different Warframes can have very different requirements, and because of Corrupted mods, most of them also usually have several viable builds with quite different emphases and major trade-offs (e.g. efficiency, versus duration, versus range versus power strength).  There are very few Warframes that really have only one cookie-cutter build - off the top of my head, I can think only of Nyx, who you'd pretty much always build in the same way.  But at the other end of the spectrum, you have frames like Banshee, who has several quite different viable builds, emphasizing either stealth melee, mass cc, or Sonar.  And while not all Augments are successful, the ones that are can dictate very different builds (from Augment-less builds) for the Warframes that have them.

 

With weapons, I'll grant you it's a bit more as you say - but there's still a fair bit of leeway in terms of whether you build for crit, status or pure damage. And even then, for raw damage you sometimes have a choice between another elemental and fire rate, for example, or magazine size, or reload speed - all of which can also affect sustained dps quite substantially on some weapons. Or again, do you put Heavy Caliber on or not? -  with some weapons it's a no-brainer, with others, it's a genuine puzzle that depends a lot on the innate accuracy of the weapon, your playstyle and the types of mission and mob you're up against.  Again, for melee, you have some choices between, say, Life Strike for safety or another elemental for more damage. 

 

The real cookie-cutter weapon builds are only made by people on Warframe Builder who go for theoretical raw dps, but such builds aren't always optimal in practice, there's quite a lot more variation possible than that.  And even with elementals, there are still many choices to be made per weapon, per build and per mob type (e.g. the "typical" Void cold/corrosive loses out to heat/viral for higher level Void with the team all carrying CP - or even electric/viral for more cc).

 

This amount of diversity is about average for games - some games have more, but many games have less, and are still good games.

 

I appreciate that you might prefer more diversity of certain kinds, but you're not going to get very far convincing people that Warframe is particularly "cookie-cutter" when it so obviously isn't.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Omnimorph

[Rebellis]

I appreciate that you might prefer more diversity of certain kinds, but you're not going to get very far convincing people that Warframe is particularly "cookie-cutter" when it so obviously isn't.

It's very cookie-cutter.

Once you have maxed mods, any potatoed weapon with proper forma will kill any enemy you'll face on non-endless type missions quite easily using a corrosive build. That's because the game is so broken. Enemy scaling is hard set per mission for everyone, and totally ignores how much damage someone has obtained through modding, which can be grossly more than what's needed.

The only time you would need to switch elements would be for long endless corpus missions (core farming Triton) or when using 4 CP auras. Even then it's just a simple matter of replacing a mod or two.

And then there are Raids, which is about as cookie-cutter as it gets. Try joining one with a frame that doesn't fit the mold, and see what happens. If everyone is nice, you won't be asked to leave but you won't be of much help either.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Rebellis