Challenge? Hell No. Farming? Oh Yes, Give Us More Delicious Farming

[borehk]

Dear DE,

 

I'd like to start of by saying that I really appreciate your effort in making this great, Free to play game.

 

However, I'm a bit confused as to why you're so determined on killing your own creation. I honestly don't understand. You had this amazing game concept, space ninjas and all that stuff, but for some mysterious reason you turned it into a farm fest. 

 

From what I've gathered this is pretty much how you're supposed to play the game at the moment:

 

- Need mods? Go to Kappa/Kiste and spam your ultimate skill

- Need a new frame? Go spend a few hours killing the same boss over and over again.

- Need materials? Start a defense mission, open up the containers and leave after wave 5.

- Need void keys? Start a defense mission and hope you get a key on wave 5

- Don't want to farm? Pay up.

 

Now, honestly, I don't really have a problem with doing these things over and over again, but I do have a problem with the lack of challenge presented while doing so. Challenge is non-existent outside of high-leveled defense missions (where you're rewarded with an awesome Hellfire mod after you reach level 200 enemies, but that's another issue), and because of that the whole game revolves around mindless farming.

 

And now you even managed to ruin update 8 (which, in my opinion, introduced a lot of great content) with this crap. Latron prime, reaper prime, frost prime - amazing stuff. Once again, if you want this stuff you'll have to fire up the good ol' tractor, put on your work clothes and farm from dawn 'till dusk. Gee, how fun.

 

Why are you so afraid of giving the players a challenge in this game? I've yet to see a post on this forum saying "DE, X is too difficult, could you please alter the difficulty a bit?", but I've seen countless threads complaining about the farm fest that is going on at this moment.

 

So, please, for your own sake, stop shooting yourselves in the foot, stop rewarding farming and start rewarding skill and strategy.

[FiendFyre]

I agree, I love this game, but the farming is too much.

[Ameretat]

Hmm, I'm not 100% sure on this, but I heard rumours a while back they're planning to introduce difficulty levels at some point, but at the moment they want to keep it in the happy medium ground to cater for the majority UNTIL the option becomes avaliable.

 

Also, not sure if you consider it difficult, but I ran into a ton of level 90's during a L3 void run. Try soloing that for a bit of a challenge (Key word 'bit')

 

As for the farming, eh...what can you do really? It adds longevity to the game, it's all they CAN do really. If you could get all the items in say, a week from being super skilled, then what will you aim for? I suppose THAT'S the logic behind it...

[Guest]

I am genuinely worried about this game in its current state.

 

 

Hmm, I'm not 100% sure on this, but I heard rumours a while back they're planning to introduce difficulty levels at some point, but at the moment they want to keep it in the happy medium ground to cater for the majority UNTIL the option becomes avaliable.

 

Also, not sure if you consider it difficult, but I ran into a ton of level 90's during a L3 void run. Try soloing that for a bit of a challenge (Key word 'bit')

 

As for the farming, eh...what can you do really? It adds longevity to the game, it's all they CAN do really. If you could get all the items in say, a week from being super skilled, then what will you aim for? I suppose THAT'S the logic behind it...

Except the developers have said they don't want Warframe to be about farming or grinding. And yet they seem to be doing the exact opposite.

[Ameretat]

I am genuinely worried about this game in its current state.

 

 

Except the developers have said they don't want Warframe to be about farming or grinding. And yet they seem to be doing the exact opposite.

If that's the case, fair enough, it's still in beta...expect a few issues until they smooth things out. However, what would you suggest to fix the grinding? Bearing in mind I'm genuinely curious, that IS after all the point of these feedback forums .

[borehk]

Also, not sure if you consider it difficult, but I ran into a ton of level 90's during a L3 void run. Try soloing that for a bit of a challenge (Key word 'bit')

 

Haven't gotten a L3 key yet, but I'm glad to hear that there's higher level enemies.

 

As for the farming, eh...what can you do really? It adds longevity to the game, it's all they CAN do really. If you could get all the items in say, a week from being super skilled, then what will you aim for? I suppose THAT'S the logic behind it...

 

As I stated in the original post, I don't mind farming, and I absolutely agree with what you're saying. What I do mind is the lack of challenge. Players are actually encouraged to do lower level missions instead of higher levels. To me, that makes zero sense.

[laurentiud]

I agree. Farming is good, if you really need a lot of materials. But, if you want a important thing (like Void Key, new Warframe) farming will be very boring...

I played 2 weeks for Ash!!!!! 6 systems, 10 helmets and only 1 chassis!!! That's is too ridiculous. Some challenges missions that drop a blueprint EVERY time will be a good thing. Why we need to play same S#&$ty and very weak boos over and over again for a new frame? It's better if we play same boss 3 times.. but the boss be stronger, with a lot of health and minions and other things that create a better atmoshere whe you battle the boss.

 

I like this game and I want to see more updates that make the game better :) sorry for my bad english bros :)

[Nirimer]

Perhaps if they added a puzzle element of some kind to some missions, or even more backstory to things like hostage rescue missions. It would at least add a tad more depth to the game.

[Guest]

If that's the case, fair enough, it's still in beta...expect a few issues until they smooth things out. However, what would you suggest to fix the grinding? Bearing in mind I'm genuinely curious, that IS after all the point of these feedback forums .

Add more mission variety?

 

Make the bosses actually fun to fight instead of DPS race bullet sponges?

 

Don't make the RNG so unfavorable to the player?

 

The feedback forums have been filled with these suggestions and more for months. And yet we've seen nothing from the past few updates beyond making the market even more unfavorable to new players or anybody in general and adding more RNG elements AKA the Orokin keys.

[Ameretat]

Add more mission variety?

 

Make the bosses actually fun to fight instead of DPS race bullet sponges?

 

Don't make the RNG so unfavorable to the player?

 

 

Okay, suggestions for mission varietys? Capture the flag for example?

 

Bosses, honestly speaking, for a more 'fun fight' requires more AI than anything else, unless they clone mechanics such as the saturn boss. Suggestions for new abilities for the bosses?

 

As for RNG, it's just that. Flip a coin enough times in a row and you'll get heads 10 times on the trot, even with a 50/50 chance. I'm not trying to bait you, or sound like a #$&(%, just trying to see it from both sides.

[Ameretat]

Okay, suggestions for mission varietys? Capture the flag for example?

 

Bosses, honestly speaking, for a more 'fun fight' requires more AI than anything else, unless they clone mechanics such as the saturn boss. Suggestions for new abilities for the bosses?

 

As for RNG, it's just that. Flip a coin enough times in a row and you'll get heads 10 times on the trot, even with a 50/50 chance. I'm not trying to bait you, or sound like a #$&(%, just trying to see it from both sides.

 

As I stated in the original post, I don't mind farming, and I absolutely agree with what you're saying. What I do mind is the lack of challenge. Players are actually encouraged to do lower level missions instead of higher levels. To me, that makes zero sense.

 

 

The only REAL way they could fix this, would be to add another planet with ridiculously high mobs, or even just one mission, defeat the boss and you unlock a vendor, where you can trade parts from other bosses (Say you have 3 banshee helmets, you can trade one for a BANSHEE chassis) or something, which would fix the RNG people are complaining about, still make farming the existing bosses viable, and add challenge (If they made this 'new' boss in the 80's-90's catagory.

 

It's probably a bad idea, but maybe there's a scrap of sense in there that can be salvaged.

[borehk]

If that's the case, fair enough, it's still in beta...expect a few issues until they smooth things out. However, what would you suggest to fix the grinding? Bearing in mind I'm genuinely curious, that IS after all the point of these feedback forums .

 

Right now, I'm farming void keys so I'll use that as an example.

 

I'm doing defense missions until wave 5. I found this to be the most effective way to get the keys. The thing is that there's pretty much no chance of failing the mission, even when doing it solo.

 

Personally, I'd prefer starting a mission 20 times, failing it 19 times due to the challenge, but getting a key after I finally beat the mission after the 20th try instead of doing a mission 20 times, easily beating it every time and getting one key after 20 tries. 

[Aerensiniac]

Refer to topic: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/49998-this-is-not-the-type-of-feedback-you-are-looking-for-after-all-your-work-with-u8-welcome-to-warfarmers/

[Ameretat]

Right now, I'm farming void keys so I'll use that as an example.

 

I'm doing defense missions until wave 5. I found this to be the most effective way to get the keys. The thing is that there's pretty much no chance of failing the mission, even when doing it solo.

 

Personally, I'd prefer starting a mission 20 times, failing it 19 times due to the challenge, but getting a key after I finally beat the mission after the 20th try instead of doing a mission 20 times, easily beating it every time and getting one key after 20 tries. 

 

The problem is (sadly) what about all the low levels who fancy getting the keys? Or frankly, the less skilled. I agree with you entirely, but as I mentioned earlier, I heard rumours of a difficulty option coming up...eventually.

 

Personally I'd be happy if they made it so keys drop from alerts, just like they do now, but instead made it so level 2 keys ONLY drop from (and this is the tricky part) Rather than say 'wave 10 or higher', mob level 40 or higher....because of course, kiliken was 10 is stupidly easy. Same with level 3 keys, encouraging people to farm the harder defenses, or go much further in the lower ones. 

 

It's also fine as far as levels/skills go, because yeah. Level 90s in level 3, if you can't kill some high mobs in the defence, you shouldn't be IN void level 3.

 

Long story short, fix the key reward scaling.

[borehk]

The problem is (sadly) what about all the low levels who fancy getting the keys? Or frankly, the less skilled.

 

I'm not saying keys shouldn't be available at low levels, but I think better rewards for harder missions make perfect sense. It's always been this way in every game ever and I don't see a reason to change this.

 

 

Long story short, fix the key reward scaling.

 

That would be ideal, yes.

[N4G4M4K1]

Rage at a game that, for a change, actually forces its players to work for the stuff they want. I fail to see the rationale behind your arguments. You're complaining about them making all of the content available without spending a dime.

 

Do you understand why they made the game? It's the same reason anybody does anything. Money. They have for make money, otherwise the game was a complete failure of an investment. Digital Extremes doesn't make games just because they think it's fun, Warframe was made for commercial and financial purposes. I've had it with all these people raging over nothing, get your head out of your &#! and stop being so ignorant.

 

Sorry for having to phrase that so harshly. If I did it any other way, it wouldn't have as much an impact. My apologies.

[Guest]

Rage at a game that, for a change, actually forces its players to work for the stuff they want. I fail to see the rationale behind your arguments. You're complaining about them making all of the content available without spending a dime.

 

Do you understand why they made the game? It's the same reason anybody does anything. Money. They have for make money, otherwise the game was a complete failure of an investment. Digital Extremes doesn't make games just because they think it's fun, Warframe was made for commercial and financial purposes. I've had it with all these people raging over nothing, get your head out of your &#! and stop being so ignorant.

 

Sorry for having to phrase that so harshly. If I did it any other way, it wouldn't have as much an impact. My apologies.

RNG is not "working" for anything. It's luck of the draw and nothing more. One person could get all the stuff they want in a handful of runs. Another person could spend days and not get their stuff.

 

"Do you understand why they made the game? It's the same reason anybody does anything. Money."

 

According to Mynki and Geoff, they made this game because they've wanted to for the past ten years. I would be very @(*()$ worried if they made this game purely for profit. That's a sure sign that your game has zero heart or soul and will die within a few months.

 

Steve has said countless times during livestreams that he doesn't want Warframe to be about grinding. What in U8 rectified that? Nothing. It made it ten times worse.

[vieuxchat]

Dear DE,

 

I'd like to start of by saying that I really appreciate your effort in making this great, Free to play game.

 

However, I'm a bit confused as to why you're so determined on killing your own creation. I honestly don't understand. You had this amazing game concept, space ninjas and all that stuff, but for some mysterious reason you turned it into a farm fest. 

 

From what I've gathered this is pretty much how you're supposed to play the game at the moment:

 

- Need mods? Go to Kappa/Kiste and spam your ultimate skill

- Need a new frame? Go spend a few hours killing the same boss over and over again.

- Need materials? Start a defense mission, open up the containers and leave after wave 5.

- Need void keys? Start a defense mission and hope you get a key on wave 5

- Don't want to farm? Pay up.

 

Now, honestly, I don't really have a problem with doing these things over and over again, but I do have a problem with the lack of challenge presented while doing so. Challenge is non-existent outside of high-leveled defense missions (where you're rewarded with an awesome Hellfire mod after you reach level 200 enemies, but that's another issue), and because of that the whole game revolves around mindless farming.

 

And now you even managed to ruin update 8 (which, in my opinion, introduced a lot of great content) with this crap. Latron prime, reaper prime, frost prime - amazing stuff. Once again, if you want this stuff you'll have to fire up the good ol' tractor, put on your work clothes and farm from dawn 'till dusk. Gee, how fun.

 

Why are you so afraid of giving the players a challenge in this game? I've yet to see a post on this forum saying "DE, X is too difficult, could you please alter the difficulty a bit?", but I've seen countless threads complaining about the farm fest that is going on at this moment.

 

So, please, for your own sake, stop shooting yourselves in the foot, stop rewarding farming and start rewarding skill and strategy.

Why not add materials as a resource when you earn some challenges on mission ? On every mission ?

Like the 5 class kills. Do it and you get a random materials from all of them (not only the mat from the planet)

Or 3 headshots in a row and you get a x1,05 multiplier on all the resources you got in the mission.

Do the 5 class kills AND the headshot one and you up the chances to get a rare material for the 5 class kills.

Or play a level with subpar weapons (for instanc ea level 15 with level 10 gear)

Or play with a warframe with only one skill and use it twice at most in a level twice your level.

Etc.

Yes, challenges, as you said.

Small things like that that you can't exploit (for instance rewarding reviving teammates could lead to teammates letting them dieing so you could revive them)

[borehk]

Rage at a game that, for a change, actually forces its players to work for the stuff they want. I fail to see the rationale behind your arguments. You're complaining about them making all of the content available without spending a dime.

 

Do you understand why they made the game? It's the same reason anybody does anything. Money. They have for make money, otherwise the game was a complete failure of an investment. Digital Extremes doesn't make games just because they think it's fun, Warframe was made for commercial and financial purposes. I've had it with all these people raging over nothing, get your head out of your &#! and stop being so ignorant.

 

Sorry for having to phrase that so harshly. If I did it any other way, it wouldn't have as much an impact. My apologies.

 

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say. What the hell does DE's profit have ANYTHING to do with this? I'm not saying "give us everything for free please, I don't want to work for my stuff", I'm saying "give us an actual challenge, make us use our brains to earn our stuff, instead of mindlessly shooting at level 15 infested chargers on Io defense missions". I suggest you re-read the thread.

 

EDIT: Also, since you so kindly explained to me that DE has to make money (and here I was thinking DE grew their money on trees, good thing you stopped by to explain otherwise) I'm going to go ahead and address that too. Now I don't really know much about running a business, economics and all that stuff, but I'm pretty sure that no interest in your product (Warframe) equals no customers (players) which results in no monies.

 

I'm also shocked to see that as a founder you're actually against constructive criticism, because so far that's what the thread's been about: making Warframe a better game. Why anyone would mind such a discussion is beyond me...

Edited May 26, 2013 by borehk

[IlIlllIO0pallaO0IlIlIlIl]

I just want them to fix the damn random drops. A single run of wave 30+ should yield much more stuffs than doing multiples of wave 10s. I'm not saying take it out of context entirely, but going upto level 30 and getting Redirection is really REALLY annoying. Lack of reward for both skill and difficulty.

 

Oh yeah, and let's not forget that last time when we went on Void Extermination 3 and got Reaper Handle.

[Guest]

I just want them to fix the damn random drops. A single run of wave 30+ should yield much more stuffs than doing multiples of wave 10s. I'm not saying take it out of context entirely, but going upto level 30 and getting Redirection is really REALLY annoying. Lack of reward for both skill and difficulty.

 

Oh yeah, and let's not forget that last time when we went on Void Extermination 3 and got Reaper Handle.

Agreed with everything you said.

[IlIlllIO0pallaO0IlIlIlIl]

Rage at a game that, for a change, actually forces its players to work for the stuff they want. I fail to see the rationale behind your arguments. You're complaining about them making all of the content available without spending a dime.

 

Do you understand why they made the game? It's the same reason anybody does anything. Money. They have for make money, otherwise the game was a complete failure of an investment. Digital Extremes doesn't make games just because they think it's fun, Warframe was made for commercial and financial purposes. I've had it with all these people raging over nothing, get your head out of your &#! and stop being so ignorant.

 

Sorry for having to phrase that so harshly. If I did it any other way, it wouldn't have as much an impact. My apologies.

 

This is not just some click and hotkeys MMO. This is a shooter, and despite being PVE should REWARD for exceptional players and their skills. Learned how to do double headshots with Kraken? Great. Got upto 30+ level on Xini? Awesome. Here is your reward: Redirection.

 

This is basic of all basics in game design. Rewards should be proportional to difficulty. I do not mind farming for rarer mods, since that's classic RPG element and makes those rare mods all together more valuable. However, the lack of scaling in basic resources on higher waves + just stupendous RNG reward for each defense check points? These need to be fixed. 

[vieuxchat]

Maybe every 10 waves you get one more mods. And each mod in addition has a better drop table.

For instance :

You have 4 droptables : low, medium, high, very high with associated drop chances for mods (a very high tabl ewould have a better chance for rare mods)

Wave 5 : a low mod

Wave 10 : 2 low mods

Wave 15 : 1 low and 1 medium

Wave 20 : 1 low and 2 medium

Wave 25 : 1 low 1 medium and 1 high

Wave 30 : 1 low 1 medium and 2 high

Wave 35 : 1 low 1 med 1 high 1 very high

Wave 40 : 1 low 1 med 1 high 2 very high

After that you get 1 more very high mod every 5 waves.

So the guys who did 80 waves would have : 13 mods with 10 of them from the very high table (which could contain BP and forma etc.)

 

If they chose to fight low level defense mission then they woul dget less mods from the enemies than from a high level defense mission.