Scorpions Need A Nerf Asap

[Inofor]

What scorpions need is not a nerf, it's a bugfix. They can currently use the rope through walls. This needs to be fixed before the need for a nerf can be evaluated properly.

 

If you're having trouble with scorpions, shade is your friend.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Inofor

[Vercinaigh]

No, you said "Slowly dragging you through the floor with no way to counter attack, avoid or block it." i admit i read that as along because my brain interpreted it to make more sense. If you are going to tell me to re-read your post, please ensure it is accurate and sensical in the first place.

 

Also that is obviously broken yet your post says "They need a nerf immidently as they can likely kill if there is a large horde around, they are unblockable with a large range, the slow drag makes it worse than Mag's pull as you get shot along the way often arriving dead!"

 

You don't want that broken mechanic fixed you want them changed, to be easier, because you have trouble with them.

 

"... I shouldn't have to use health kits just because the game forced me to. It would be the same thing if Stomping MOAs would have instant stomp,"

 

When should you have to use them? when you are relaxing on a beach on pluto, cocktail in hand with not a care in the world? It seems to me you want to breeze a mission in seconds, with little challenge and no consumables used. I see this as warframes greatest threat at the moment, it is too easy so people are progressing far quicker than content can be delivered.

 

Don't reply to a post if you arn't going to read the OP's post, you clearly didn't read at all shut up, stop trying to defend your point when you didn't give someone the consideration to read what they said.

 

Scorpion: The female counterpart of the sawmen. Not very tough in terms of HP or defense with moderate damage. What makes you want to rage quit is the annoying as hell Pull ability.

Slowly dragging you through the floor with no way to counter attack, avoid or block it. It will drag you towards it and get a free hit, often disabling your shields, while being dragged you are subject to any attacks.

I have at times been pulled by Scorpion out of view, blocked by doors and crates. 

They need a nerf immidently as they can likely kill if there is a large horde around, they are unblockable with a large range, the slow drag makes it worse than Mag's pull as you get shot along the way often arriving dead!

At least rollers you could run away and shoot them, or jump. There was strategy to it. Scorpions simply get a cheap hit in and all you can do is flee the other way.

 

 

There, was it that hard to read before you post?

 

To the OP, yes, I agree, I had 3 scorches kill me for free just last night over it. Full to zero rank 605 shielded excal, dead, just like that lol.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Vercinaigh

[Kurochikun]

About that instant moa stomp attack... those heavy grineer have that and you cant jump it.

 

That's true but that is different, those are elite enemies, sort of mini bosses and there is also a tactic for those. They don't rush the player, often staying at medium distance and ONLY use their stomp once IF you get up close. That, is balanced.

[BoompigXD]

I have never. Ever. Been hit by a scorpion.

Pulled? Several times, a single shot to the head kills them and you have plenty of time to aim while they're pulling you.

The only annoyance as with rollers is when there are several at once, same with Commanders.

They're fine as is.

[Caernarvon]

They die with a shotgun blast or rifle burst to the face and unlike rollers are &!$$-easy to hit. No need for a nerf.

 

Edit: Wow pi*s is censored? Jesus christ.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Caernarvon

[VScipii26]

My simple suggestion:

Remove the wall hacks lasso, make it so you can shoot with reduced accuracy when being pulled.

[shinguv]

Make it blockable or put a short delay on the animation.. Instantly being knocked over with no counter play is not fun.

[NydusTemplar]

The biggest issue is a lack of telegraphing and a lack of actual tactic to counter them.  Let's compare to other 'challenge' enemies, shall we?

 

Rollers

Traits - Annoying, bladed balls to the chin.  They can jump impressively high, sometimes ramp to hit people on boxes, and stun you the moment you touch them.  At times they can never cease moving (though occasionally pause), have a fairly small hit box, and can survive multiple hits from weapons with lower damage output (usually coupled with higher fire rates).  En masse they can almost keep you stun locked.

 

Tactics - Awareness is key as the Rollers produce a distinctive noise when moving and telegraph an incoming attack with another distinct sound.  Standing on a box or other raise object can provide you a reasonable amount of protection from Rollers as they can jump to get you, but cannot stun lock you as easily.  This does make you a fairly easy target to ranged fire which the Grineer do not lack in the slightest, so its a decision you've got to make.  Additionally, if you've got the aim, you can try shooting them, though as mentioned they have a smaller hit box and can be difficult to strike.  Any hit with a weapon using a frost mod will make hitting them much easier, especially if its a very large AoE melee jump attack.  Needs to be executed carefully though, since Rollers can jump and stumble you out of jump attack animations.  Suitably powerful and indiscriminate AoE abilities such as Ember's Ring of Fire or Overheat can destroy them.  The Rhino's Iron Skin means you can flat out ignore them for the duration.  Finally, you can simply run or dodge out of the way, side stepping or otherwise moving to avoid them if you're fast enough.

 

Disruptor Ancients

 

Traits - Armored and tanky with high run speed and fairly generous 'melee' range on tentacle strikes.  Their ability to strip shields, deplete energy reserves, and knock a Tenno down at short range makes them an extremely dangerous enemy if the player is caught unaware.  This is especially true if in the middle of a horde of rampaging Runners and other Infested, which is very likely.

 

Tactics - Awareness is also key with this enemy, and though they do not telegraph their presence like Rollers, Ancient Infested can be seen if suitable line of sight is present.  They are physically distinctive, towering above the other Infested.  Their 'bulk' gives them away.  Additionally, they have a unique color and a lack of telltale signs of their presence (green cloud or green aura) can be used to identify them at a distance.  You can occasionally be blind sided from a corner by one.  The enemy must move to close combat in order to use their abilities, and simply being near the Ancient is not a threat in and of itself.  So dealing with it from afar using any ranged weapon (preferrably one with a Frost mod to slow their advance, or one without a frost mod to stun lock them) is ideal.  Target the weak point (the knee) for maximum damage if no armor piercing or armor ignoring weapon is available.  Additionally, one can simply close to melee range, as many weapons will stun the Ancient on contact.  Charged strikes have a tendency to ignore armor (not all though), and if equipped with a frost mod will slow an incoming attack giving generous time to dodge and keep up the attack.  Finally, Rhino's Iron Skin can ignore the drain and knock down entirely for its duration, and other abilities like Mag's Crush or Ember's Overheat/Ring of Fire/World on Fire can disable and potentially kill the Ancient before its a threat.  Additional powers like Loki's Invisibility or Decoy, or Saryn's Molt can provide a suitable distraction to allow worry free elimination.

 

Scorpion

 

Traits - A fairly low profile enemy with a fast movement speed, capable of shooting a wrist mounted tether which will trip and pull the targeted Tenno in for as long as it takes them to climb to their feet.  They are not armored, and their melee attack is fairly low damaged.  This attack can strike a target with only the briefest line of sight and regardless of intervening obstacles.  There is little telegraphing and the effect is instantaneous.  Once the tether has been attached, there is no way to break free or otherwise react until the stand up animation has played.  During this time, you are vulnerable ranged and melee fire so long as they are close enough or have line of sight to exploit it.  This tether can strike targets on different levels, around corner, on the other side of intervening terrain and cover, and thru any obstacle that provides line of sight.  There are also reports of line of sight not being required, merely proximity.  This attack can be chained by multiple Scorpions with little to no down time between them.  Each Scorpion will only use this ability once before it goes on a cooldown.

 

Tactics - Awareness is, as always, the major defense against this unit.  The unit does not telegraph their presence at all, and the only noise played is after the tether has been attached to the Tenno.  A player must A) spot the low profile (by Grineer Standards) target from long range and B) shoot the target before they close to mid range to tether.  There is no other way to avoid this attack.  Once the tether has latched onto the target, the only way to reduce the time down and distance traveled is to install the Handspring mod.  It is possible that Rhino's Iron Skin will prevent this, and it is also possible that being mid casting animation will prevent this.

 

Conclusion - As you can see from the write up above about the most complained about enemies in the game, there are multiple tactics and avenues to deal with each except for the Scorpion.  The Scorpion is a binary enemy, you either kill it at long range or you get tethered.  There is no grey area or room to maneuver.  You cannot avoid the attack aside from removing the threat.  With every other challenge enemy, you can use a variety of tactics beyond Iron Skin or Kill it with Fire.  Finesse can be applied to the above two and knowledge allows for avoidance or reasonable counter.  There is no manner of finesse in dealing with the Scorpion.  It is shamelessly designed unit to enforce the usage of a lackluster mod rather than make the mod more attractive on its own merits, and to artificially increase the difficulty of a faction by means of a cheap ability rather than creatively designed mechanics.

 

If this is the path forward, I shudder to think of the ways elemental damage reduction will be enforced.  If anyone recalls the days of raiding in vanilla WoW and having to lug around bags of resistance gear, well, you just might get to relive those days.

 

Suggestions - It would be remiss of me to generate such a large and suitably bile-filled post without offering some manner of constructive criticism to current problem.

 

On the Scorpion - The Scorpion should be required to have line of sight to the target for more than an instant to use this ability.  Line of sight should be required for the entire duration of the ability, or it should end immediately.  A good way to do this is to have a cast animation and telegraph the tether.  Something like reaching up to prepare the wrist launcher for firing.  Even if it lasts only for approximately one second, its still enough that, should a player see one as they round a corner, they have time to either shoot or seek cover before being grabbed if they are paying attention.

 

Another alternative is to have the initial tether strike only immobilize the Tenno rather than instantly knock them down, giving the player time to shoot the Scorpion before being pulled down and dragged along.  In some ways this actually makes the Scorpion even more dangerous, but grants a window of opportunity for the player to respond to the attack.  A good way to do this is to have an animation of reaching forward to grab the line before pulling.  Again, about one or two seconds is probably more than enough for this.

 

Another suggestion (not mine, but a good one), is to place the player being dragged into the 'downed' animation with their secondary weapon out.  That way they can shoot at targets while being dragged, including the Scorpion or other threats.  This provides a reasonable counter play that, though the Scorpion is still stopping the Tenno from retreating or seeking cover, you won't die instantly when a Flameblade and a few Lancers kill you before you have a chance to respond.  This can happen very often to low level frames on frozen levels.

 

Finally, another idea on top of the other ones is to give a reasonably short global cooldown to the tether ability.  This prevents it from being chained together immediately and providing the enemy an extremely large window to simply kill the Tenno while the player can do nothing.  Handspring mod can only reduce this, not prevent it.

 

On Handspring - Though there are several enemies that have a knock down(Scorpions, Shield Lancers, Ancients [all types], Grineer Heavies, Leapers, Shockwave Moa, most bosses [all factions]), the Hand Spring mod simply doesn't have the benefits to be useful by comparison to many other mods already available.  Having a larger health and shield pool trumps a mostly avoidable mechanic with careful play (Scorpions being the exception).  So the trouble with Handspring mod is that there's little incentive to use it beyond enforcement.

 

I'd suggest some manner of side bonus to go with Handspring mod to make it more valuable.  A Handspring is a type of acrobatic maneuver, so rather than creating an entire mod to provide just one maneuver, have it provide something tangible in all manner of acrobatics.  Perhaps increased damage done to all attacks in air (including ground slams by melee weapons) and while wall running or sliding.  Allow for a new animation when 'stumbled' by melee shoves or Rollers which vaults the Tenno forward in a literal handspring, knocking all targets back in a close area.  Maybe it could be renamed and provide a resistance to stumbles and shoves, requiring more than one shove to interrupt a Tenno in close range.  Anything to increase its value so that it becomes a valid choice without make it a requirement.

 

That's all I've got for now, and I think there's plenty here as is, so please give it some more thought because this just doesn't seem right.

Edited May 26, 2013 by NydusTemplar

[CosyPigeon]

I don't mind the concept behind scorpions, but I do think they need some work. 

 

Their attacks should not auto hit (you should be able to dodge, jump, sprint out of the way, you know, like a space ninja would) and they should not be able to shoot you through walls/ceilings/floors like they can now. 

 

Hopefully this will be added to the hotfix list. In the mean time, the shade sentinel does a great job of making them redundant anyway, as it pretty much always turns you invisible whenever a scorpion nets you. 

 

 

EDIT: Additional feedback.

 

Had a few more suggestions, if the scorpion dies then the tether effect should end immediately, this way a team mate can save your bacon.

 

Handspring shouldn't be a mod. 

Edited May 27, 2013 by CosyPigeon

[Paradoxbomb]

To be honest, I just melee them to death the second I get back up, and I usually managed to survive being pulled into heavy crowds, but it definitely is annoying that you can't counter it and that it goes through walls. Instead of a tether, I say they should have a teleknietic ability (similar to pull) with a longer range. However, it should have a charging period in which a field of energy builds around you and the scorpion, giving you a chance to take her out. Even if she does catch you, you should have freedom to shoot while being telekinetically lifted, allowing you to try and fight any potential threats or use abilities.

[Whackhat]

I went on a solo rampage today, somewhere around 30 maps solo, and found that the biggest problems with scorpions are through-wall shots and doors.

 

Doors? wtf are u on?

 

Ok, so you walk into a room. you fall down, and have 10+ grineer with fully automatic weapons shooting you because some scorpion on the other side of a wall hit you with a rope. (I died before i could get up, as an Ash with 600/360 shields/hp).

 

The sucker-punch is what i believe people have a problem with. They can knock you down before they are even able to be shot at. I'm assuming the through-wall shot is a bug and will be hopefully fixed soon, but lets continue.

 

SO, you walk through a door, and BAM! hit by a scorp (on your side of a wall). Now, in the time it takes for you to get back on your feet, and entire room of Grineer is shooting at you, so you shoot back, only to be sucker-punched by a second scorpion.

 

The scorpion isn't so devastating when with a group that can provide cover, but while playing solo/2 ppl, there isn't much room for error.

 

I don't have a problem with rollers. Why? You see them coming, you hear them coming, and they only stagger. They're like mosquitoes. Easily killed if you can land a blow, if they get you, it itches for a bit, then goes away. And you know they're there because of an annoying buzz.

 

Scorpions are like that greasy annoying kid who sits next to you in your Chemistry lecture. You can try to avoid them, but out of nowhere, they'll appear without warning. And you can't get rid of them, you sit there for like five minutes about them talk about what they had for breakfast, while you pull your hair out.

[thedrag0n22]

"I have at times been pulled by Scorpion out of view, blocked by doors and crates."

and floors 

[KJay1010]

I really hate scorpion's pulling ability not because of damage they doing but they interrupts flow of attacks...

 

Whenever I do killing spree with melee but suddenly they pulled my leg, that interrupts gradual intensity of killing.

[Thaumatos]

It definitely goes through walls, crates, boxes, ALL FRIENDLY GRINEER, and it doesn't always pull you towards the scorpion who cast it.

Honestly anyone who doesn't notice this is just not paying attention. This is why you only use software and don't test it for a living.

[Ced23Ric]

I summarize: Scorpions need better LoS checks and Ability-LoS checks, so they don't perform miraculous wallhack effects. Otherwise, they are actually fine.

 

Will drag it upstairs, see what the bosslady says.

 

On a personal note: The Scorpions are a much more flavourful form of CC/stun than the Rollers. Rollers are annoying. Scorpions at least can pull off funny things, such as ping-ponging you between them for extra giggles.

[Karpanen]

A bit off topic. Scorpions look really silly as well. They remind me of little kids running around the park in the winter with their helmet hats and overalls. When their abilities get a nerf, their look could get a buff. That way we're all happy. I don't like shooting little kids.

[PapaKicks]

I kind of feel like Scorpions were DE's spiteful response to all the roller 'whining'.

[CosyPigeon]

I summarize: Scorpions need better LoS checks and Ability-LoS checks, so they don't perform miraculous wallhack effects. Otherwise, they are actually fine.

 

Will drag it upstairs, see what the bosslady says.

 

On a personal note: The Scorpions are a much more flavourful form of CC/stun than the Rollers. Rollers are annoying. Scorpions at least can pull off funny things, such as ping-ponging you between them for extra giggles.

 

 

Not having them auto lock on would be nice too, I don't want to get auto hit even if I perfectly timed my dodge roll just because she is an aimbot. 

[Boomstick720]

Alright so I had a crazy idea here, so just level with me.

 

What if we actually BUFFED the scorpions as they are now, but NERFED the appearance rate?  In other words, make them an elite enemy.  We have 2 different "male grinneer" elites, but we only have one "female grineer" elite.  

 

My proposition is this.  I say that while we remove the wall hacks autoaim stuff, we give the scorpion the range of a sniper, and buff the health a bit.  That way, its like fighting a sniper, but its actually a very valid threat.  The Lotus basically saying that "an elite enemy is coming" I think would be sufficient cause for warning of this enemy, and it would provide a very dangerous threat that requires you to be extremely aware of not only your close quarters, but also your long range.  This "elite" could be different from the rest in that it in itself is not as much of a bullet sponge, but it can be strong enough to warrant notice from a team.  It also kind of forces a team to be mobile, as they can be pulled out of an entrenched position, which further reinforces the idea of "moving fast and often" stuff.

 

Just a thought on it, and I would be curious as to what others think of it.

[PapaKicks]

Alright so I had a crazy idea here, so just level with me.

 

I will level with you. The phrase you wanted was 'bear with me'.

[Supern00b]

The amount of "Do you even lift bro" dude gamers is very concerning.

Where did their empathy to those less endowed... hell where did their common sense go?

 

Yes Scorpions are a challenge. A challenge on about the same level as Nervos.

I think these people were the same people who campaigned to have the Grineer shockballs reintroduced to the game.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Supern00b