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[Solved] How Does Arcane Guardian's Crazy Armor Boost Work?

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Since nobody else seems to have made a thread on exactly how Arcane Guardian works, I did some experimenting for myself. I'm pasting in my post somewhere on the bottom of page 1 in this thread.

 
 
 
Note that the resulting calculations will be mildly inaccurate due to the received damage being rounded.
For reference, here's how damage works.
DAMAGE AGAINST TENNO
Tw8DzNT.png
Note that the "Alloy Armor" section is circled because my experiment has data that contradicts this. See the "CALCULATIONS AND ANALYSIS" section.
 
DAMAGE AGAINST ARMORED TARGETS
tMWD6Xu.png,
where
DM = "Damage Modifier" (where Inflicted Damage = Base Damage * Damage Modifier)
HM = "Health Modifier" (increased or decreased elemental damage against health),
AM = "Armor Modifier" (increased or decreased elemental damage against a given armor type),
AR = Armor.
 
For example, Slash Damage against an Alloy-armored target would have HM = 0.25 and AM = -0.50.
This turns the DM into:
DM = (1+0.25)(1-0.50)*300 / ((300 + AR(1+0.50))
       = (187.5) / ((300 + AR(1.50)).
Then we plug in our target's Armor value, and voila; we've got a value for DM.
 
More info:
 
RESTRICTIONS ON ARCANE GUARDIAN:
KNOWN RESTRICTIONS
  • Cannot be activated in the Simalcrum under any circumstance.
  • Cannot be activated from blocked damage. (Being hit from behind while blocking can still activate AG.)
  • Cannot be activated through self-damage.
  • Can be activated by enemies that don't have AI, e.g. arc traps, turrets.
  • Cannot be activated during health-invulnerability frames during Slash Dash. Whether shields are being constantly damaged or are already at zero while in Slash Dash, AG will not activate. (UNCONFIRMED. Not enough testing.)
UNKNOWN RESTRICTIONS
  • Can it be activated during damage reduction frames from rolling?
  • Can it be activated during other partial-invulnerability abilities like Rhino Charge and Tidal Surge?
  • Can it be activated during full invulnerability frames from abilities like Blade Storm?
  • Can it be activated from DoT procs?
  • Can it be activated from DoT procs while blocking?
  • Can it be activated from AoE splash damage while blocking, even if blocking successfully reduces incoming damage? (Yes, blocking reduces frontal damage from AoE damage now, although seemingly not to the full extent that the weapon usually reduces damage.)
  • Can it be activated from environmental damage (e.g. fire hazards, Ceres toxic waste, Europa outdoor DoT, Eris Hive Sabotage gas balls)?
  • etc.
Need some help testing these out.
 
EXPERIMENTAL DATA:
FRAME            -   Excalibur (225 base armour)
MODS              - Steel Fiber (R9; "+100% armor"), Armored Agility (Maxed; "+45% armor")
ARMOR           -  551.25 = 225 * (1 + 1.00 + 0.45)
ARMOR TYPE -  unconfirmed (for now)
 
 
ENEMY FACED                      -   Bombard (level 22, no Nightmare modifier); deals BLAST damage
DAMAGE TO SHIELDS           -   151
DAMAGE TO HEALTH            -   34
DAMAGE TO HEALTH (AG)   -   29
 
Note that all damage values were perfectly consistent; i.e. there was never a rocket that did 33 or 35 health damage while AG was not active.
 
CALCULATIONS AND ANALYSIS:
Blast Damage has no modifier against Shields whatsoever. Since the Bombard dealt 151 damage to shields, we'll say that base damage = 151.
Against health, the same rockets did 34 damage. This means that experimental Damage Modifier against default (i.e. no AG) health is:
DMexp_(no AG) = actual damage / base damage = 34/151,
                        = ~0.225.
 
 
Let's try to see if our result matches our formula:
DM(no AG) = (1+HM)(1+AM)*300 / (300 + AR(1+AM)),
where HM = 0.0 and AM = 0.25 for BLAST versus FERRITE-ARMORED FLESH*; and AR = 551.25.
 
We get:
DM(no AG) = 225 / (300 + 1.25AR) ,
                 = 0.227.
The results seem consistent! Both calculations indicate that BLAST versus 551.25-FERRITE-ARMOR FLESH is cut down to ~23% of its usual damage.
 
Note that the Damage 2.0 table says that Tenno have ALLOY armor, not FERRITE. However, plugging ALLOY into the DM(no AG) formula gave a vastly different value that did not match the experimental results. This indicates that my Excalibur either has FERRITE armor, or that Bombard rockets do a special type of BLAST damage whose modifiers do not match the Damage 2.0 table.
I'm wagering that the former is more likely.
 
 
Now, let's look at this with Arcane Guardian (AG) activated. We'll look at the experimental damage modifier first.
DMexp_(AG) = actual damage / base damage = 29/151,
                   = ~0.192.
 
Since the calculations for DM(no AG) were consistent with experimental results, it's safe to assume that we can safely use that formula again.
DMexp_(AG) = 225 / (300 + 1.25ARexp_(AG)).
Plugging in DMexp_(AG) = 0.192 and algebraically solving for ARexp_(AG), we find that our armor with AG is:
 
ARexp_(AG) = ~697 armor.
 
 
 
Now, there are three most likely cases for how Arcane Guardian stacks onto your armor:
  • CASE 1 - Multiplies base armor by 1.60. (So I'd get 225*(1.60)*(1+1.00+0.45) = 882 armor with my current loadout.)
  • CASE 2 - Adds "+60% armor" using the same formula as Steel Fiber and Armored Agility. (So I'd get 225*(1+1.00+0.45+0.60) = 686.25 armor.)
  • CASE 3 - Adds +60 armor to the final total. (So I'd get 225*(1+1.00+0.45)+60 = 611.25 armor.)
Since CASE 2 is the closest to our ARexp_(AG) value, it seems very likely that Arcane Guardian stacks just like Steel Fiber or Armored Agility would!
 
 
 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

CONCLUSIONS:

 
1. Player Warframes in PVE (or even just specific frames) might use FERRITE instead of the wiki's stated ALLOY armor. More testing is required.
2. More importantly: 
 

The damage formula for Arcane Guardian is most likely:

TOTAL ARMOR  =  [bASE ARMOR] * [ 1 + (SteelFiber) (ArmoredAgility) + (ArcaneGuardian) ],

 

where SteelFiberArmoredAgility, and ArcaneGuardian are 1.100.45, and 0.60 if active and maxed out.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

 

(original thread)

I'm planning on getting some Arcane Guardians ("On damaged: 20% chance to increase armour by 60% for 20 sec") for my Excal, but I'm curious as to how much armour you actually get from the buff. And other various questions about it as well...


- Does the buff affect base armour or simply add 60 on top of your total? Or does it stack on top of mods like Steel Fiber and Armored Agility using the exact same formula?
Or, more clearly... say I have a frame that magically has 200 base armor, and I'm using a R9 Steel Fiber (+100%). For the sake of easy mental math.
Current armor is (200)*(1+1.00) = 400.
Will an AG buff give me (1.60)*(200)*(1+1.00) = 640 armor, (200)*(1+1.00)+60 = 460 armor, or (200)*(1+1.00+0.60)=520 armor?

- What happens if you stack multiple arc. guardians? Say I have two maxed-out ones equipped; will the buff have a chance to stack on top of itself, or will I pretty much just have double the chance to refresh the duration?

- When it says "damaged", are there any requirements as to how I take damage? Like, will it have a chance to activate if I damage myself with a Glaive or something, and does it work when health is invulnerable (but shields aren't) during Slash Dash? What if I get hit during Slash Dash when my shields are zero (i.e. the hit registers but health doesn't decrease)?


Much appreciated!

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The Rank 3/3 Arcane Guardian (AG) finished cooking, and I was able to test it today! I pasted the experiment into the OP so players can use this thread for information about how Arcane Guardian works. Note that there is still a lot of missing information regarding Arcane Guardian's activation restrictions, and I can't do all that experimenting by myself!
Here's the big fat experiment and the results, in all its juicy detail.
 
Note that the resulting calculations will be mildly inaccurate due to the received damage being rounded.
For reference, here's how damage works.
DAMAGE AGAINST TENNO
Tw8DzNT.png
Note that the "Alloy Armor" section is circled because my experiment has data that contradicts this. See the "CALCULATIONS AND ANALYSIS" section.
 
DAMAGE AGAINST ARMORED TARGETS
tMWD6Xu.png,
where
DM = "Damage Modifier" (where Inflicted Damage = Base Damage * Damage Modifier)
HM = "Health Modifier" (increased or decreased elemental damage against health),
AM = "Armor Modifier" (increased or decreased elemental damage against a given armor type),
AR = Armor.
 
For example, Slash Damage against an Alloy-armored target would have HM = 0.25 and AM = -0.50.
This turns the DM into:
DM = (1+0.25)(1-0.50)*300 / ((300 + AR(1+0.50))
       = (187.5) / ((300 + AR(1.50)).
Then we plug in our target's Armor value, and voila; we've got a value for DM.
 
More info:
 
RESTRICTIONS ON ARCANE GUARDIAN:
KNOWN RESTRICTIONS
  • Cannot be activated in the Simalcrum under any circumstance.
  • Cannot be activated from blocked damage. (Being hit from behind while blocking can still activate AG.)
  • Cannot be activated through self-damage.
  • Can be activated by enemies that don't have AI, e.g. arc traps, turrets.
  • Cannot be activated during health-invulnerability frames during Slash Dash. Whether shields are being constantly damaged or are already at zero while in Slash Dash, AG will not activate. (UNCONFIRMED. Not enough testing.)
UNKNOWN RESTRICTIONS
  • Can it be activated during damage reduction frames from rolling?
  • Can it be activated during other partial-invulnerability abilities like Rhino Charge and Tidal Surge?
  • Can it be activated during full invulnerability frames from abilities like Blade Storm?
  • Can it be activated from DoT procs?
  • Can it be activated from DoT procs while blocking?
  • Can it be activated from AoE splash damage while blocking, even if blocking successfully reduces incoming damage? (Yes, blocking reduces frontal damage from AoE damage now, although seemingly not to the full extent that the weapon usually reduces damage.)
  • Can it be activated from environmental damage (e.g. fire hazards, Ceres toxic waste, Europa outdoor DoT, Eris Hive Sabotage gas balls)?
  • etc.
Need some help testing these out.
 
EXPERIMENTAL DATA:
FRAME            -   Excalibur (225 base armour)
MODS              - Steel Fiber (R9; "+100% armor"), Armored Agility (Maxed; "+45% armor")
ARMOR           -  551.25 = 225 * (1 + 1.00 + 0.45)
ARMOR TYPE -  unconfirmed (for now)
 
 
ENEMY FACED                      -   Bombard (level 22, no Nightmare modifier); deals BLAST damage
DAMAGE TO SHIELDS           -   151
DAMAGE TO HEALTH            -   34
DAMAGE TO HEALTH (AG)   -   29
 
Note that all damage values were perfectly consistent; i.e. there was never a rocket that did 33 or 35 health damage while AG was not active.
 
CALCULATIONS AND ANALYSIS:
Blast Damage has no modifier against Shields whatsoever. Since the Bombard dealt 151 damage to shields, we'll say that base damage = 151.
Against health, the same rockets did 34 damage. This means that experimental Damage Modifier against default (i.e. no AG) health is:
DMexp_(no AG) = actual damage / base damage = 34/151,
                        = ~0.225.
 
 
Let's try to see if our result matches our formula:
DM(no AG) = (1+HM)(1+AM)*300 / (300 + AR(1+AM)),
where HM = 0.0 and AM = 0.25 for BLAST versus FERRITE-ARMORED FLESH*; and AR = 551.25.
 
We get:
DM(no AG) = 225 / (300 + 1.25AR) ,
                 = 0.227.
The results seem consistent! Both calculations indicate that BLAST versus 551.25-FERRITE-ARMOR FLESH is cut down to ~23% of its usual damage.
 
Note that the Damage 2.0 table says that Tenno have ALLOY armor, not FERRITE. However, plugging ALLOY into the DM(no AG) formula gave a vastly different value that did not match the experimental results. This indicates that my Excalibur either has FERRITE armor, or that Bombard rockets do a special type of BLAST damage whose modifiers do not match the Damage 2.0 table.
I'm wagering that the former is more likely.
 
 
Now, let's look at this with Arcane Guardian (AG) activated. We'll look at the experimental damage modifier first.
DMexp_(AG) = actual damage / base damage = 29/151,
                   = ~0.192.
 
Since the calculations for DM(no AG) were consistent with experimental results, it's safe to assume that we can safely use that formula again.
DMexp_(AG) = 225 / (300 + 1.25ARexp_(AG)).
Plugging in DMexp_(AG) = 0.192 and algebraically solving for ARexp_(AG), we find that our armor with AG is:
 
ARexp_(AG) = ~697 armor.
 
 
 
 
Now, there are three most likely cases for how Arcane Guardian stacks onto your armor:
  • CASE 1 - Multiplies base armor by 1.60. (So I'd get 225*(1.60)*(1+1.00+0.45) = 882 armor with my current loadout.)
  • CASE 2 - Adds "+60% armor" using the same formula as Steel Fiber and Armored Agility. (So I'd get 225*(1+1.00+0.45+0.60) = 686.25 armor.)
  • CASE 3 - Adds +60 armor to the final total. (So I'd get 225*(1+1.00+0.45)+60 = 611.25 armor.)
Since CASE 2 is the closest to our ARexp_(AG) value, it seems very likely that Arcane Guardian stacks just like Steel Fiber or Armored Agility would!
 
 
 
 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

CONCLUSIONS:

 
1. Player Warframes in PVE (or even just specific frames) might use FERRITE instead of the wiki's stated ALLOY armor. More testing is required.
2. More importantly: 
 

The damage formula for Arcane Guardian is most likely:

TOTAL ARMOR  =  [bASE ARMOR] * [ 1 + (SteelFiber) + (ArmoredAgility) + (ArcaneGuardian) ],

 

where SteelFiberArmoredAgility, and ArcaneGuardian are 1.100.45, and 0.60 if active and maxed out.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

Phew.

Now somebody please go update the Wiki. I'm taking a nap.

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Enchants like that depend on the frame. Its 60% of whatever excels armor is at the time. So if it is 225 he gets like an additional 132 armor or so making it a total of 337 till it expires. So for your example if you have 400 armor you will get 640

 

are you sure about that ?? cuz from what i know all the buffs are related to the frame's base states, wich mean at his example he have 200 base armor, the other 200 he got from steel fiber won't be affected, so it should be 520 total armor till effect expires.

 

please if you have anything that confirm what you said (a post made by devs, a post at wiki that have confirmed information, etc...) give me a link, cuz if it's like that my Val will be so happy XD

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I've never seen a definitive answer to this question, just threads asking it. I've never seen test results. It's been on my to-do list for ages :S

 

I'm building the arcanes right now; I'll try to see if I can confirm the formula for myself once it's all done. It's gonna take a few days to build the things, though.

If someone's able to test it out right now and post here before I do, that would be hugely appreciated!

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Slightly off-topic but

One of the reasons I've not done any testing on the Arcanes is that they won't proc in the simulator

Are you sure? I haven't tried arcane guardian but strike and awakening have worked for me all the time in there.

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I've never seen a definitive answer to this question, just threads asking it. I've never seen test results. It's been on my to-do list for ages :S

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Are you sure? I haven't tried arcane guardian but strike and awakening have worked for me all the time in there.

Oh. Um, well, no, I'm not sure at all now. I know they *didn't* right after it was released, I guess they might now. Huh.

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Just tested it and guardian does not proc on simulacrum.

Just tried in the simulacrum as well. It turns out guardian and agility don't proc in there.

I'm thinking this means all arcanes that proc on being damaged will not work in simulacrum. Not sure if this is a bug or intended.

 

Like Darzk said, guess it's back to testing guardian the old-fashioned way in missions.

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I am 2 arcanes away from having a full set on my Valkyr/Chroma. May be I will buy me the 2 last ones and try some tests, but not sure how to go about doing the tests. :x

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Enchants like that depend on the frame. Its 60% of whatever excels armor is at the time. So if it is 225 he gets like an additional 132 armor or so making it a total of 337 till it expires. So for your example if you have 400 armor you will get 640

 

Its usually when an enemy hits you. no self proc damage has ever proceed for me.

 

No they will not stack. Just more chances of it proc-ing

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Just tested it and guardian does not proc on simulacrum.

eeeer thats a bug most likely tho makes it difficult to test yes?

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I have always wanted to know this as well. Thank you for taking the time to test this, SortaRandom.

 

If you need someone to help out with testing your arcane guardian's interactions with armor ability buffs like Warcry or Ice Ward, I'd be happy to help.

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I'm building the arcanes right now; I'll try to see if I can confirm the formula for myself once it's all done. It's gonna take a few days to build the things, though.

If someone's able to test it out right now and post here before I do, that would be hugely appreciated!

 

One of the reasons I've not done any testing on the Arcanes is that they won't proc in the simulator, so you have to use the old system of finding the same level enemy to hit you both with and without the buff active. Although thankfully you won't need to change up your build and can just use the same guy.

 

Because we're talking about armor reductions, we need testing data from an enemy that hits you with a single element attack. IIRC the best enemy for this is a Fusion Moa, but the first tick deals different damage from the others so dont worry about that one.

 

If you can fetch the data I'd be glad to back up the math! :D

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Enchants like that depend on the frame. Its 60% of whatever excels armor is at the time. So if it is 225 he gets like an additional 132 armor or so making it a total of 337 till it expires. So for your example if you have 400 armor you will get 640

 

Its usually when an enemy hits you. no self proc damage has ever proceed for me.

 

No they will not stack. Just more chances of it proc-ing

Cool, thanks!

By the way, out of curiosity, are there any threads that have experimental data confirming that it's just a 60% base armor (or total armor; mathematically equivalent) increase, as opposed to a +60% armor boost treated the same as an additional armor mod?

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