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[Mod Request] Reduce Ability Range And Increase Strength


Greatheart
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I think UltraKardas summed it all up nicely.

 

And I'll still point out that you seem to be replying only to select lines of peoples arguments. Ones that, when taken out of context, are easily shot down with a no-brainer.

 

Example:

 

 

better gameplay comes from warframes having 4 useful skills rather than just 1 overpowered one.

 

 

All warframes have 4 useful skills.

 

EDIT: As I had to take care of some real world business, the rest of my argument is below.

Edited by EirwynTelyn
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I was talking about the fun challenge...  The grind is an unfortunate consequence of F2P PvE games.

 

For some, the RNG elements CAN be the fun challenge. Seeing what you can get in however many runs.

Sure, very few, but a reminder that the view of "fun" changes from person to person, as does opinion.

 

Skill is the same in any game.  It is the same in any sport.  It is the exact opposite of P4TW.  It is doing things that other players know how to do and want to do but cannot do.   It is using the abilities as the developers intended and finding the game so easy that there's no need to P4TW.  It is taking weaker guns and frames to missions, not spamming skills and still getting the most damage, the most headshots, the most revives and the fewest deaths.

 

"It is doing things that other players know how to do and want to do but cannot do."

So, getting to Wave 60 without using P4TW. And they can get that far because all of their stats are capped at an extra 20, 40, 60%?

 

"It is using the abilities as the developers intended and finding the game so easy that there's no need for P4TW."

I still have yet to see a successful example of a player going to Wave 60 solo with a P4TW frame JUST using their P4TW skill.

And, at risk of taking this out of context a bit, using corrupted mods to be stronger is apparently not what the developers intended by this. Which brings me onto my next point:

 

Corrupted warframe mods are the direct cause of P4TW.

 

Show me the proof that even when our stats are lower we WON'T be building for the easiest route to beat RNG, or any other challenge in this game.

The unfortunate effect of having diversity in any game is that there will be things more powerful than other things, and things that do things in an easier way. The part you seem to forget is that you can't get very far just by using one thing, which is why your idea that corrupted mods are a DIRECT cause of P4TW is flawed.

 

P4TW is brought about by people seeking to do things quicker and with better efficiency than using what is "intended".

As you said, the grind is an unfortunate consequence of this being a PvE F2P game.

P4TW is an unfortunate consequence of people not wanting to spend more time grinding.

 

This is a disingenuous argument.  There's nothing wrong with a mod doing +20% range, +20% duration and you know it.

 

Yes, there IS nothing wrong with a mod doing +20% range and +20% duration.

I will point out that by JUST introducing mods with positives (and you HAVE to know that if we remove corrupted mods for Warframes, they will be forced to convert each one to a similar status of +20% something and +20% something else) it DOES create a lower power ceiling.

BUT there is suddenly no downside to using any mods. It's just positives stacked on positives.

What brings balance to corrupted mods is that you're sacrificing one stat for another. And if that sacrificed stat was hindering you, great! All the more power to fight through the grind.

 

P4TW is not just damage abilities although that exemplifies it.  All overpowered abilities are P4TW.  And that's what everyone uses in Trials.  You just made my argument for me.

 

Sudden clarification!

You are mixing up the terms "P4TW" and "metagame".

What everybody uses in Trials is what works and what makes it the easiest and most efficient, as I pointed about in my argument above.

Most of the time, we're using it because it makes it all more bearable. Efficiency and difficulty are factors as well, but as you said, grind is an unfortunate side effect.

You would think they would want to lessen that to make the game more fun, yes?

 

What should I outline that isn't my personal opinion?  I notice you don't make the same ad hominem attack versus Eirwyn.  Why is that?  Is it because you're on his side of the debate?

 

You accuse me of attacking people and then had the hypocrisy to do it yourself.  Do you attack lots of people or just join in when others are having a go at someone?

 

It's an indisputable fact that better gameplay comes from warframes having 4 useful skills rather than just 1 overpowered one.  When you accept that, it's clear I have a point -- even if it's an unpopular one amongst the current audience of this thread.

 

I will, once more, point out that you seem to be picking and choosing your arguments as carefully as possible.

 

It's an indisputable fact that better gameplay comes from warframes having 4 useful skills rather than just 1 overpowered one.  When you accept that, it's clear I have a point -- even if it's an unpopular one amongst the current audience of this thread.

 

Yes, you do have a point that better gameplay comes from diversity.

Yet, you countered the entire point of this thread with a big "no": bringing in another corrupted mod.

 

Isn't bringing in another mod bringing in more diversity?

Bringing in another option isn't bringing in diversity, is it?

Edited by EirwynTelyn
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And I'll still point out that you seem to be replying only to select lines of peoples arguments. Ones that, when taken out of context, are easily shot down with a no-brainer.

 

Example:

 

All warframes have 4 useful skills.

 

All warframes have 4 useful skills.  Until you put a corrupted mod on them.

 

Your idea of shooting down an opinion is my idea of leaving an open goal LOL.

 

"It is doing things that other players know how to do and want to do but cannot do."

So, getting to Wave 60 without using P4TW. And they can get that far because all of their stats are capped at an extra 20, 40, 60%?

 

Did you just say there's something wrong with replacing corrupted mods with well-designed mods because you might not being able to get to wave 60?!?!

 

Show me the proof that even when our stats are lower we WON'T be building for the easiest route to beat RNG, or any other challenge in this game.

The unfortunate effect of having diversity in any game is that there will be things more powerful than other things, and things that do things in an easier way. The part you seem to forget is that you can't get very far just by using one thing, which is why your idea that corrupted mods are a DIRECT cause of P4TW is flawed.

 

Not at all.  You're conflating mod flexibility out of missions, with the inflexibility corrupted frame mods provide within a mission.

 

I don't disagree with you on RNG.  Recent non-Prime frames ie Equinox and Chroma have been ridiculous.  And yes most players will build / farm as efficiency as they can.  Which is why the game should prevent it and instead make the most efficient route the most fun one they can.

 

The most efficienct methods are determined by the rules or how things work within a game.  If the rules are different, the methods will be different.  The players won't care.  They won't say: "Why isn't there a small random chance to drop forma in missions?"  They'll just know where to farm them and go do that.

 

Yes, there IS nothing wrong with a mod doing +20% range and +20% duration.

I will point out that by JUST introducing mods with positives (and you HAVE to know that if we remove corrupted mods for Warframes, they will be forced to convert each one to a similar status of +20% something and +20% something else) it DOES create a lower power ceiling.

BUT there is suddenly no downside to using any mods. It's just positives stacked on positives.

 

What brings balance to corrupted mods is that you're sacrificing one stat for another.

 
We're not talking about balance.  The top 5 or so corrupted frame mods are balanced.
 
No, we're talking about how they make the game less interesting, more CC-frame, more P4TW.  Have you ever noticed that nobody* likes playing Frost in Tower Defence?  Nobody likes playing Trinity whose sole job is typically to provide energy for P4TW spam.  Vauban isn't particularly popular either.
 
*The pedant in you will cite a counterexample.  Don't bother.  I don't mean literally nobody.
 
Secondly, it's only the corrupted frame mods which are problematic.  Corrupted weapon mods like Vile Acceleration and Magnum Force are great, if weak.  Unlike the corrupted frame mods, they don't limit gameplay more than they expand it.
 
The downsides to using any mod are the opportunity cost of drain & the mod slot itself.
 
When I first replied in this thread, I didn't think reworking corrupted mods would be a good idea, but the more we've talked about it, the more it seems feasible.  I just don't think DE will do it and frankly CC frames can be balanced around corrupted mods.  But they'll still less far less fun to play than if they had 4 useful skills in every mission.
 
In case DE is actually reading, the way to do it is to introduce the replacements first, all of them.  Then start removing the old corrupted mods, tweaking the replacements as you go along.  Drop Nightmare Mods from Derelict and make the new Nightmare  mini-events have double the level of ordinary mobs with some really nice rewards like 5 gold cores, forma, potato chance, 50k credits at the top end..  Many players would love to walk into a mission with level 90 enemies.
 

What everybody uses in Trials is what works and what makes it the easiest and most efficient, as I pointed about in my argument above.

Most of the time, we're using it because it makes it all more bearable. Efficiency and difficulty are factors as well, but as you said, grind is an unfortunate side effect.

You would think they would want to lessen that to make the game more fun, yes?

 
The second stage of the Trial is badly design, with those bad design elements compounded in the Nightmare version.  People take the easy P4TW CC frames partly to avoid the annoyance of having to deal with enemies at the same time as dealing with randoms who don't know what they're doing and the bad design where they can wreck a stage or even the whole mission.
 
Now if the farming is less irritating, less easy, less boring, it doesn't seem so grindy does it?
 
One other game I play is Planetside 2.  The farm required is extreme but once you get the basics down, it's not grindy at all.  Farm is an inevitable consequence of normal play.
 

I will, once more, point out that you seem to be picking and choosing your arguments as carefully as possible.

 

If there were any devastating counterarguments I'm neglecting, I'm sure you'd let me know...
 

Isn't bringing in another mod bringing in more diversity?

Bringing in another option isn't bringing in diversity, is it?

 

Diversity in one small way, much less diversity in another.

 

Your best argument would be, the game is already screwed by corrupted frame mods.  One more won't hurt.  That might even be true, but these mods are prone to having unforeseen consequences.

Edited by Fifield
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No, I did not create an account to give myself an easy rebuttal. vv
 

Let's summarize and take a look at each point you bring up here, correct me if I'm wrong or repetitive with anyone else's point previously made.

 

I. Corrupted mods enable exploitative play and make balancing the game more difficult

 

 - By definition exploitative play is to use another person (or perhaps in this case an entity of some sort) to rise up through means of a greater advantage and/or beneficiary status gained toward the individual as they see fit. Corrupted mods are perhaps one of the core components that make Warframe’s modding sequences and patterns as unique as it is – finding that perfect balance for each individual player.

 

Corrupted mods are given for the directive and the priority to create the means of balancing of a mod in of itself - to have a threshold of both minimization and maximization. You don't seem to grasp this idea

 

You didn't present one.  Not a coherent, relevant one anyway.

 

On top of all this, I'm sure you've not once used a corrupted mod yourself in the entirety of since you signed up for this game, correct?

 

One of the weakest arguments I've ever seen.  If I had never used a corrupted mod, I wouldn't be qualified to talk about it.  Nor would I be able to join in on missions and would have to play solo.  I don't P4TW, outside of raids, where you can't get away with not doing it.

 

I would love to see the builds you create for your personal frames in efforts to reach these Endgame status since the game obviously does not present enough of a challenge for you (granted if you whole-heatedly believe this you have not gone very far into Endgame)

 

Firstly, I've gone 2 hours 20 mins into T4S.  Secondly, Warframe's end game is defined by abilities overpowered by corrupted mods.  Without those mods, the endgame is different.
 
I actually do raids blindfolded. /sarcasm.

 

 

II. Name one currently viable warframe that would no longer be viable without corrupted power mods.

 - All of them

 

Wrong.  Because this is how Warframe actually was pre-Update 10.

 

III. By removing all the corrupted power mods, you stop the CC frames being so overpowered and thus make more warframes viable.

 - No, by removing the power of the corrupted mods, you build onto the very means of the word "grind" to dig even further into the Endgame, not to mention the terrible enemy scaling protocols DE has implemented into Warframe's progressiveness as time goes on.

 

Oh you're a camper.  I get it now.  You want no scaling so you can camp for literally days and 'win' the game.  Also, that's another counterargument that falls flat on its face.

 

V. Skill is the same in any game.  It is the same in any sport.  It is the exact opposite of P4TW

 - Being someone who takes part in athletic activities, I will say skill is not the same in every game or sport, but that’s another discussion.

 

It is not the opposite in P4TW either. While this is a widely accepted theme circulating throughout the Warframe universe and its communities, please explain how pressing 4 by itself will lead you into greater challenges this game has to offer. Can you win against stalker by pressing 4? Can you just automatically win against high tier enemies using Nova’s 4 alone? They can still OHK you if you don’t pay attention, despite their reduced speed and overall agility.

 

LOL, way to make my point for me.  Your counterargument about P4TW was just incoherent.

 

VI. There's nothing wrong with a mod doing +20% range, +20% duration and you know it.

-       Really? There’s nothing wrong with +20% range + 20% duration buffs all in one mod? Hell let’s give the mod 10 slots, and at maximization you get +200% range +200% duration

 
Hey, your counterargument means we're giving each warframe a personal elephant to ride which can bash through walls.
 
See, I can reply in a way that's completely irrelevant too.  Also, do you really not know that you can only fit the same mod once in a frame?
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All warframes have 4 useful skills.  Until you put a corrupted mod on them.

 

 

 

 

And please enlighten me on how useful contagion, ripline, psychic bolts, tempest barrage, soul punch, well of life and bounce pads are. 

 

Removing corrupted mods changes nothing. Do you know why? Because not all abilities are created equal. Sayrns will still want to nuke everything instead of using contagion. Mesas will still want to blast everything to death. Excel will still want to leave everything in bloody pieces everywhere using exalted blade. 

 

Abilities have a natural progression from unlocking the more powerful abilities as they level up. How many teams do you see that expect a trinity to use well of life to heal the team? Nobody. The team expects trinity to keep herself filled with energy and use blessing when needed. How many excals do you see spamming slash dash to kill everything? None cause they are using exalted blade or radial javelin. And as much as you think the game is P4TW, you are just flat out wrong. Every frame has minimum 2 useful abilities that they use for different scenarios. Ex: Excal gets overwhelmed by enemies and uses radial blind to save himself. Ex B Excal sees a large group of enemies ahead and uses exalted blade to kill them all.

 

Not all abilities are created equal and you must be blind if you don't think other people don't use the other abilities. 

 

 

 

 

 

Firstly, I've gone 2 hours 20 mins into T4S.  Secondly, Warframe's end game is defined by abilities overpowered by corrupted mods.  Without those mods, the endgame is different.
 
I actually do raids blindfolded. /sarcasm.

 

 

 And first i have no reason to believe you lasted that long in a t4s. Secondly if you actually did, you had a team that had abilities to make it manageable. A team comp is the opposite of P4TW. Do you know why? cause without your team you wouldn't be able to last that long or suppress the enemies to prevent them from killing you. You wouldn't do enough damage with your abilities to win. Your team had enough weapon damage, enough sustain and defense to kill enemies that long.

 

I will admit Im half way curious how you managed to deal with the hundreds of level 150+ nullifiers as they would one shot everything without a defensive ability. Did you have a frost or volt on your team using shields? All warframes have their role and you need other abilities and roles to fill what your warframe cannot do. Having a mesa and a nova work together to kill everything isn't P4TW. Its teaming up to kill everything as a mesa's peacekeeper can't do everything. It can't slow down enemies, it can't give her health, all it does is do damage and she needs more then her ultimate to win, Hence the nova. The nova can support the mesa by slowing down enemies and increasing mesa's damage with molecular prime. Offer them an escape route with wormhole and take out concentrated groups with antimatter drop. It ALL depends on the situation and what people need. Ultimates are the most powerful but aren't always what the team needs. How many times have you been saved by a frost snowglobe a volt shield of been given energy by a trinity? How many times has a loki disarmed the enemy with irradiating disarm then gone invisible and let the enemies fight themselves? How often does a mirage use eclipse and hall of mirrors for killing things then prism as damage/blind? Not all abilities are equal but if you think this game is P4TW then you need to do something other than draco.

 

Like the raid for example. Where everyone has a different job. And different abilities are needed to win. Spamming miasma in a raid will not make you win. What wins the raid is power synergy having many abilities protect or suppress the enemy. Most raids like to have a frost for protection and avalanche, freeze to kill he faster.

 

The day a sayrn call slow enemies down, buff damage and heal her team by just using miasma alone is the day P4TW actually exists. ( It doesn't)

 

I've beaten the raid without a hud... which felt like being blindfolded... 

 

P4TW means you use one ability in every scenario every time for every enemy and it always wins. Need health? Miasma won't help. Need damage? Miamsa does damage. Want to buff your team? Miasma can't help you there. Need a defense? You SOL. Nullifiers, ancient healers and leach eximus laugh at your ignorance.

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And please enlighten me on how useful contagion, ripline, psychic bolts, tempest barrage, soul punch, well of life and bounce pads are. 

 

Please enlighten me how this is in anyway relevant to your argument.  Also ripline is great, soul punch has a nice mod, bounce pads are pretty damn useful in nightmare raid.

 

Removing corrupted mods changes nothing.

 

So stop opposing it then LOL

 

Every frame has minimum 2 useful abilities that they use for different scenarios.

 

So basically you're admitting that corrupted frame mods halve what makes a frame interesting in game.

 

And first i have no reason to believe you lasted that long in a t4s.

 

I have no reason to believe you ever played the game.  I just do because ad hominem attacks are bogus arguments.

 

Secondly if you actually did, you had a team that had abilities to make it manageable. A team comp is the opposite of P4TW. Do you know why? cause without your team you wouldn't be able to last that long or suppress the enemies to prevent them from killing you. You wouldn't do enough damage with your abilities to win. Your team had enough weapon damage, enough sustain and defense to kill enemies that long.

 

Yes, you need a team to go that long.  No, that doesn't make it not P4TW.

 

No I'm not going to reveal how we did it because people camp enough in this game.  If a DE employee wants to know, PM me.

 

Having a mesa and a nova work together to kill everything isn't P4TW.

 

Yes it is.  It's a classic example of skill-free play.  Literally, a 4 year old could do it.

 

P4TW means you use one ability in every scenario every time for every enemy and it always wins.

 

No it doesn't.  You don't get to define what P4TW means just because you're a P4TW'r.  The terms exists to mock your style of 'gameplay'.

 

And don't get me started on raids.  What a disappointment...

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Please enlighten me how this is in anyway relevant to your argument.  Also ripline is great, soul punch has a nice mod, bounce pads are pretty damn useful in nightmare raid.

 

 

So stop opposing it then LOL

 

 

And don't get me started on raids.  What a disappointment...

 

 

Removing corrupted mods changes nothing because warframes become less powerful meaning it takes more to kill enemies. This changes nothing as nobody will switch their play style. They will just use lots and lots of energy pads. And since every frame is weaker instead of one sayrn nuking the entire map you will have four to make up for the damage decrease. This makes things even worse as no power would be valid after awhile. 

 

Also whats wrong with the raids? too difficult for you? 

Edited by (PS4)IIIDevoidIII
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Balancing things out and sacrificing some aspects to exaggerate other aspects is what takes a warframe to the next level. By min maxing valkyr I sacrifice range for duration and i sacrifice efficiency for power. Do you know what i get? I get an unlimited duration warcry that doubles my armor. I also get a crazy long hysteria and one that hits hard. I sacrifice paralysis (which nobody ever uses) for 2 combat buffing abilities. 

 

This is balanced cause if it was on a scale the negative range would balance out the duration. Im also focusing two abilities.

 

That same build buffs 3 of nova's abilities making null star do 4k damage total, having and hit like atom bomb and making molecular prime awesome.

 

Im min maxing and still getting the most out of all the abilities in a way i like. And i still use wormhole believe it or not.

 

 

Your issue is how warframe works fundamentally. It works like any other mmorpg where you level up and whatever skill you get at the level cap is the strongest. Except you pretend people don't use other abilities.

Please enlighten me how this is in anyway relevant to your argument.  Also ripline is great, soul punch has a nice mod, bounce pads are pretty damn useful in nightmare raid.

 

No it doesn't.  You don't get to define what P4TW means just because you're a P4TW'r.  The terms exists to mock your style of 'gameplay'.

 

Hysteria is better then rippling, Why would i focus on making ripline stronger opposed to hysteria and warcry? I make ripline weaker as i never use it for combat to buff war cry and hysteria so i get the most out of them instead of waisting time on ripline. Same thing for the rest of the abilities. 

 

Shadows of the dead > Soul Punch

Bastille, > bounce pad

exalted blade > slash dash

link > well of life

 

You can min max frost and toss a good part of duration out a window and build him all strength, or range and efficiency and all his abilities won't get hit too bad so you can have your cake and eat it too with him.

 

Sonar/silence > sonic boom

turbulence > everything zephyr has

 

Also, didn't you say this game requires no skill? Then in that case isn't P4TW the most efficient way to kill things? So you either are mad because everyone is better at killing then you are. Or you are pretending that you have skill by using other weaker abilities? And what do you think of me using corrupted mods to benefit the best skills a warframe has? 

Edited by (PS4)IIIDevoidIII
Removed Rudeness
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