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Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]


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i think the damage should be divided out on depend on bullets per shot, ex: a weapon deals 100 damage with 1 bullet and i equip a 100% multishot, so now each bullet will deal 50 instead of 100 while the weapon itself hasn't lost or gained any damage, it has gotten some utility instead.

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i think the damage should be divided out on depend on bullets per shot, ex: a weapon deals 100 damage with 1 bullet and i equip a 100% multishot, so now each bullet will deal 50 instead of 100 while the weapon itself hasn't lost or gained any damage, it has gotten some utility instead.

 

This, it makes multishot worth it for critical and status but not so much against damage because of armor

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The ostensible rationale for nerfing multishot is this. It's a "required mod" which reduces player choice.

 

The problem is, because multishot is a required mod, nerfing multishot isn't going to work. The same number of people will use it, they'll just run ammo mutators to reduce the drain of ammunition efficiency. Far from solving the problem of required mods, this change will just increase the number of required mods in the game.

 

To deal with multishot, we have to understand why it's a necessary mod, and why adding ammo consumption won't make it less necessary. After doing so, I will point out what is necessary to fix the issue this fix is intended to deal with.

 

Why is Multishot Necessary?

 

Multishot is necessary because in endgame content, such as T4 Voids, raids, and arguably even things like Pluto/Ceres, enemy health has scaled to a point where weapon damage is starting to fall drastically behind enemy health. Enemies require significantly more time to kill, which gives them more time to deal damage, and since their damage has also increased, this can get very lethal. Multishot helps make up this difference. By doubling or tripling your damage per second, it cuts down the time an enemy will survive by a significant degree.

 

Why is the Proposed Multishot Nerf Actively Counterproductive?

 

Compare, for example, the Braton Mk-1 and the Braton Prime. The Braton Prime has superior stats in almost all areas but spare ammunition, but its primary superiority is in damage. The Braton Prime does 35 damage compared to the Mk1 Braton's 18-a bit more than 190% the damage! ...coincidentally, rifle multishot adds +90% to your weapon's damage. +90% damage is the difference between a very good weapon, capable of taking you through all but the highest-leveled content, and a trash weapon that everyone recommends you shelve the moment you've done the missions necessary to get a better one.

 

This should demonstrate that the proposed fix, which makes multishot consume additional ammunition, doesn't fix anything. Nobody's going to take a Mk1-Braton into a T4S or T4D. Nobody. They're going to keep their multishot mod on their gun, and instead they're going to stick an ammo mutator in their gun to make up for the increased drain, which coincidentally leads to reduced, not increased loadout choice. Far from freeing up a mod slot for customization, you've eliminated one since now it's not just Split Chamber + Serration that's mandatory for a rifle, but Split Chamber + Serration + Rifle Ammo Mutator.

 

This fix does not succeed in even doing what it's intended to do, let alone achieving any other objectives. It is a bad idea.

 

So How Would You Fix It?

 

Well if I could tell DE how to fix their game and they'd do it for me, I'd run the company, and I don't do that, do I? But here's some food for thought.

 

The problem with required mods is simply this-you need the mods to increase your damage to the point where you can quickly take down the hordes of enemies that appear in a survival or defense. A 20 minute T2 survival will net you more than 500 kills-that's one enemy killed every 2 seconds. This is fun-murdering your way through battalions of enemy soldiers is the best part of Warframe. But it means that you need to be able to kill each of them quickly.

 

If you're going to want to eliminate required mods, the solution needs to make weapons viable in these situations without mods. I don't mean without multishot-I mean without any mods. No Serration, no Split Chamber, no elemental mods. This will either require enemy scaling to be adjusted or for weapons to gain damage while leveling up, or some form of both. Adding in elements of both will probably be most optimal.

 

Furthermore, weapon damage mods would have to be adjusted heavily. Call of Duty has demonstrated that if you're competing with utility mods, something like a +30-40% increase in total damage is about what you can expect to trade off against something like +100% reload speed (i.e. a utility mod). Assuming total damage is increased additively, the utility mods become more tempting as each damage mod creates a lower proportional decrease in time to kill.

 

So, let's talk rifles. A typical endgame rifle will probably have Serration (+165%), Multishot (+90%), and 2 elemental mods (+180%). We'll call those the 'mandatory' mods. So that rifle is dealing 2.65 * 1.9 * 2.8 = 14.1 times base damage. What this is saying is that level progression should account for roughly a 900% increase in base damage, with each "required" mod accounting for maybe a 100% increase in base damage.

 

This is a very interesting figure to come out to because it means +30% damage a level, which is ridiculous and clearly unworkable. This means that enemy scaling will probably have to be actually fixed no matter what you do.

 

As I understand it, enemy health scales to the square of their level. It does not scale arithmetically, but geometrically. An enemy at level 50 is not twice as tough as a level 25 enemy, but rather 4 times as tough. It gets worse with armored enemies, whose effective health scales to the fourth power of their level-a level 50 grineer lancer isn't twice as tough as a level 25 one, but rather sixteen times as tough.

 

Removing geometric scaling, and making enemy level scaling linear, will fix this issue. A level 50 enemy will no longer be 25 times tougher than a level 10 one, but 5 times tougher, allowing you to greatly reduce the amount of scaling necessary to have reasonable TTKs on endgame content. If you don't want 'mandatory' mods to exist, the scaling system for enemies must be brought in line, weapon base damage has to scale up enough that a unmodded weapon at 30 can take you through high-level content, albeit with difficulty, and since you're clearly determined to fix the issue of 'mandatory' mods, you're going to have to face the music at some point.

 

Why not now? If you had said "we're going to be completely redoing the scaling system because right now geometric growth means that enemy power curves are broken. Because enemies will be less powerful at high levels, some mods will have to be altered, such as multishot consuming more ammunition," people would have complained a lot less because it'd demonstrate that you're fixing things instead of just throwing down a band-aid.

Edited by MJ12
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i think the damage should be divided out on depend on bullets per shot, ex: a weapon deals 100 damage with 1 bullet and i equip a 100% multishot, so now each bullet will deal 50 instead of 100 while the weapon itself hasn't lost or gained any damage, it has gotten some utility instead.

Hmmm that idea is good too.

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Just remove 'mandatory' mods and increase flat DPS to compensate. Now players have room to experiment. Everybody's happy.

Exactly!!!

Just remove Serration, Hornet Strike and Pressure Point already.

This lie about how mutli shot was supposed to work from the beginning isn't gonna fool anyone.

They say it's for build diversity... But the biggest enemy of that is the flat damage mods (listed above).

Stop messing with fun mods that increase shot/ pellet count and deal with the real problem, DE.

I would be happy to see Serration etc go out the window and not expect ANY kind of compensation.

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Make multishot consume a fourth the cost of a normal shot.  So if you are firing a single round weapon that procs every shot then every 4th shot uses up one addition round of ammo. 

 

If each multishot uses up the normal amount of ammo then they just become crappier fire rate mods.

Edited by (PS4)DesecratedFlame
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I've been telling people to try the Mk1 Braton in high level content for a long time for one major reason:

It is way more balanced.

 

OUR power curves are broken. The enemies deal the right amount of damage at level 35 for end game enemies. We just deal way too much.

 

Cut our power, cut the enemy counts, cut the garbage from the drop tables. This makes every enemy important, reduces the repetitive nature of the reward system, and helps the game overall.

Edited by egregiousRac
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There are two things they can do to Split Chamber, Barrel Diffusion+Lethal Torrent and Hell's Chamber to not make it out to be another form of fire rate increase:

 

1.  Mod guarantees an extra shot on every shot once applied, but there's a percent chance to NOT consume that extra round.  Like Split Chamber might be default 6%, capped at 36% chance to not consume a round for the extra shot.  In the case of secondaries, Barrel Diffusion and Lethal Torrent each apply one additional shot, and their percentiles only count for their own additional shot.  So while Barrel Diffusion's extra shot might have an 8%-48% chance to not consume an extra round, Lethal Torrent's extra shot might have only a 4%-24% chance to not consume an extra round.  They don't create a lump sum towards negating the consumption of an extra round or rounds, they simply apply individually.  So sometimes a player might spend 2 rounds but shoot 3, sometimes consume 1 but shoot 3, and sometimes consume 3 and shoot 3.

 

2.  They nerf the bonus chance considerably to within the 30% range.  Something low enough that it might as well be another form of critical hit, but with additional chances for actual critical and status shots as a result.

 

 

 

Really, DE isn't concerned with the minute/wave 40+ bit of enemy scaling.  They never really balanced anything around that range, and they don't have to.  Infinite enemy scaling is meant to beat a Tenno eventually.  Whether that happens against level 60, 100, or 200 enemies is irrelevant, it's simply an expectations players should accept and with balancing tweaks and new weapons/frames, the limits a Tenno and go to will be constantly in flux, but there were never any promises of a hard line beyond what's available via the star chart.  My TL;DR advice for those upset over the loss of damage and concerns with enemy scaling and how this will hurt them in endless modes is this: Get over it.

1. Interesting. It alters the weapon's feel in a unique way. Maybe a bit chaotic, but that could make them interesting. Definitely worth a thought!

2. This is still my personal choice though.

 

As for the "how this will hurt them in endless modes is this: Get over it." I agreed. That's not my concern either.

My concern is with choice, fun and GENERAL balance.

* Current multishot is fun, but neither really a choice nor is it balanced

* DE's proposed "fix" to multishot (extra ammo consumed) sounds neither particularly fun nor balanced. But it is at least a choice.

* My proposed change to multishot, just nerfing the values a bunch, still keeps some of its fun (maybe a bit less fun, but it's at least not entirely removed), makes it a choice and balances it better.

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I've been telling people to try the Mk1 Braton in high level content for a long time for one major reason:

It is way more balanced.

 

OUR power curves are broken. The enemies deal the right amount of damage at level 35 for end game enemies. We just deal way too much.

 

Cut our power, cut the enemy counts, cut the garbage from the drop tables. This makes every enemy important, reduces the repetitive nature of the reward system, and helps the game overall.

 

The problem isn't that we do too much damage or that there are too many enemies-it's that weapons can scale in a way that's beyond linear (multishot multiplies damage, serration/etc multiply damage, elemental mods multiply damage, and all of these stack multiplicatively) and enemies scale in a >linear fashion, while Warframe durability and powers scale linearly.

 

DE needs to figure out a scaling regime and stick to it. If enemies scale to the square of their level, so should weapons and warframes. If enemies scale linearly, so should weapons and enemies. Borderlands 1 did linear scaling, Borderlands 2 did geometric scaling, and both of them were (relatively) balanced (outside of their highest difficulty mode which broke things)-it's just that Warframe has linearly scaling survivability, geometrically scaling enemy firepower and toughness, and pseudo-geometrical weapon scaling with a hard ceiling.

 

This combines to make all progression a mess.

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Honestly, you could just...not use the multishot mod?  I mean for the most part by the time you were actually having to spend longer than a second or two on a target to kill it, the scaling was high enough to actually be dangerous to spend that much time on a single target.

 

I mean sure, the Boltor Prime murders stuff with a quick squeeze of the trigger anyway, you never HAD to hold down the trigger on it.

 

I can still use my Torid + Mirage without Multishot. and murder just fine too.

 

This knee-jerking is hilarious to behold.

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[OP]

As can be seen by my post previous to my reading this thread:

 

Now, I didn't watch the Devstream but what I gather from this post is that multishot will now be taking extra ammo from the clip -- essentially it's just a fire rate boost?

That's not what I would have done. What I would have done was go the Archwing way -- reduce the multishot % chance significantly. That way, you're banking on the CHANCE of getting double damage versus the assurance of slightly more damage from an elemental or IPS mod.

I feel the option I just mentioned would provide more variety between players for builds -- and between weapons (faster firing weapons would probably be able to use Multishot mods with a lower % better than single shot weapons) -- because it would be dependent on the player preferences.

I am in agreement with the OP.

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It's about time DE starts fixing the serration problematic.

(and kids, the serration problematic isn't only about serration, its about all those stupid damage increase mods, that are no-brainers, that are mandatory to basic gameplay, and that totally kill build diversity)

 

Maybe the upcoming multishot fix isn't the best or brightest solution of them all.

But its a start, maybe DE will look closer at this big problem the community as been talking for a long time now.

 

Nowadays the mod system is a pure skill tree system, since all the mods players use are for basic stats upgrading, there was no point to invent the modding system (that was originally created to introduce freedom, choice, and playstyle), if the correct way to use it, is for buffing up the base stats, so we can upgrade and go into higher levels.

 

 

Hopefully, they will also figure out, that the serration problematic, isnt limited to weapons, frames have the exact same problem, mods for range/continuity/strength, mods for shields/armor/health, mods for efficiency and etc, are also mandatory, those are yet again basic stat upgraders that everyone obviously chooses first above all the other mods.

And 1 (one) miserable exilus slot isn't a fix, its a very bad band-aid, we have around 50+ frame mods out there, yet we only use around 9/13 mods for 8 slots, and that 1 (one) single slot is not what makes build diversity a reality.

Edited by 7grims
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Or, OP.

 

Here's a novel idea.

 

Just don't use multishot if you don't think it's worth the ammo cost.  Or find a way to slip an ammo mutation into your build.

 

Most weapons overkill even high-scaled endgame content.  By the time you reach a content point where enemies take longer than a few seconds of sustained fire is about the time you leave anyway.

 

You're not meant to do survival for 120 minutes, or go 60 rounds of Defense.

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Honestly, you could just...not use the multishot mod?  I mean for the most part by the time you were actually having to spend longer than a second or two on a target to kill it, the scaling was high enough to actually be dangerous to spend that much time on a single target.

 

I mean sure, the Boltor Prime murders stuff with a quick squeeze of the trigger anyway, you never HAD to hold down the trigger on it.

 

I can still use my Torid + Mirage without Multishot. and murder just fine too.

 

This knee-jerking is hilarious to behold.

Nah, we just don't want more worthless mods added to this games collection. Unless we react like this DE will never realize this kind of direction isn't a good one. (but then even if we protest it's pretty unlikely for de to have a change in thinking sadly)

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