Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[PapaFragolino]

Im amazed with that statment, and also of the so many upvotes...

Multishot and serration are huge problems, I rather see them gone or fixed.

 

And all your worries are obvious things DE will take in mind once they see that basic players DPS as been decreased.

It's obvious DE doesn't want us to loose 100% of the time, warframe would be a very stupid game, so its obvious they will take that in mind.

 

They are a problem and I'm ok with them going away, but not without revisiting the enemy level and armor scaling first.

 

They never mentioned anything about it, so I rather share my opinion instead of blindly putting all of my faith on questionable changes. If they really are aware of it, a reminder from the community sure isn't gonna hurt them.

[viamont]

Many people already mentioned it but ill say it again.

 

Some weapons perhaps wont suffer as much, still some like:

 

Khom

Soma/soma prime

Boltor/Boltor Prime

Braton Prime

 

Just tu mention a few will become trash (specially the khom and Braton prime among others, lets not even start with twin grakatas...they are going to become useless beyond belief). If DE trully wants to fix this they need to:

 

A) fix enemy scaling

B) Make weapons scale damage with rank just like they want weapons to scale the damage mitigation while defending

 

I like the idea of trying to give us more personalization with our equipment, but the way you De are doing it its absolutly wrong...as many have said, by doing this you are just going to force us to put another mandatory mod, yo uare closing doors instead of opening them

[CronoSMagnum]

I've been telling people to try the Mk1 Braton in high level content for a long time for one major reason:

It is way more balanced.

 

OUR power curves are broken. The enemies deal the right amount of damage at level 35 for end game enemies. We just deal way too much.

 

Cut our power, cut the enemy counts, cut the garbage from the drop tables. This makes every enemy important, reduces the repetitive nature of the reward system, and helps the game overall.

So are you a Grineer or Corpus Spy?

 

We're freaking Tenno! We are Era Ending, Civilization Destroying, Void Banished Space Ninjas! Sitting there and saying that every enemy is supposed to be some super special encounter is kind of dumb.

 

For the Grineer, the day that Excalibur visited their base was the most important day of their lives. For me it was Tuesday.

[NeoCrimson]

I've been telling people to try the Mk1 Braton in high level content for a long time for one major reason:

It is way more balanced.

 

OUR power curves are broken. The enemies deal the right amount of damage at level 35 for end game enemies. We just deal way too much.

 

Cut our power, cut the enemy counts, cut the garbage from the drop tables. This makes every enemy important, reduces the repetitive nature of the reward system, and helps the game overall.

 

This is absolutely wrong. Making the player feel powerful and competent is the cornerstone of modern game design. This is part of why video games are fun. Warframe, from the ground up, is made to be a horde shooter with you as a badass space ninja single highhandedly cutting through a solar system full of space bugs, corporatists, and fascist clones.

 

I agree that mandatory mods shouldn't be so, and that Multishot itself is. However, if anything needs to be changed it should not be done so to make the player feel weaker. Which is what this nerf will do. 

[S7ORM]

As it is planned, it will simply be the equivalent to a fire rate increase.

Instead,

 

Now, I didn't watch the Devstream but what I gather from this post is that multishot will now be taking extra ammo from the clip -- essentially it's just a fire rate boost?

That's not what I would have done. What I would have done was go the Archwing way -- reduce the multishot % chance significantly. That way, you're banking on the CHANCE of getting double damage versus the assurance of slightly more damage from an elemental or IPS mod.

I feel the option I just mentioned would provide more variety between players for builds -- and between weapons (faster firing weapons would probably be able to use Multishot mods with a lower % better than single shot weapons) -- because it would be dependent on the player preferences.

[weezedog]

DE's proposed change does nothing to make multishot less required. All they are doing is turning it into a

corrupted mod (+multishot -ammo effeciency)

Edited September 4, 2015 by weezedog

[Prospal]

I don't think what this fix is a good idea; it doesn't really fixes anything, and if that was the original idea, then screw the original idea, what we have now is better.

 

MJ12 did pointed out a fault with WF scaling problems in a very acccurate manner; it would be great if DE adresses that in one of their new big reworks... What became pretty common now.

[Carl_Bar]

I'm one of those who's been pretty vocal about multi-shot being bad. But this is just not the way to fix it.

 

The problem is multishot and other sources of extra damage that don't increase ammo consumption are rather key to making many weapons work as far as ammo efficiency goes at any level of content from the middle of the starmap up. And it doesn't just hit the top end, middle of the road players who are still working on acquiring things like dual elemental mods will take an even bigger hit because they literally have no alternatives to replace them with. In fact with the reduced status chances practical replacement is probably going to be impossible.

 

For many weapons all this would mean is removing the multi-shot and slotting an ammo mutation in it's place and accepting being trash tier beyond saturn. thats not a good way to work things out.

 

I said if they removed multi-shot, (and that's what this does for huge numbers of weapons), they'd have to buff base damage to compensate. I'd much rather see multi-shot and + raw damage mods replaced with a MR derived damage boost and damage type specific mods, (elementals e.t.c.), replaced with pvp like "convert x% of damage). You'd still get the same damage at high enough MR and wouldn;t have to burn a ton of fusion cores merely to keep up.

[shut]

This is absolutely wrong. Making the player feel powerful and competent is the cornerstone of modern game design. This is part of why video games are fun. Warframe, from the ground up, is made to be a horde shooter with you as a badass space ninja single highhandedly cutting through a solar system full of space bugs, corporatists, and fascist clones.

I agree that mandatory mods shouldn't be so, and that Multishot itself is. However, if anything needs to be changed it should not be done so to make the player feel weaker. Which is what this nerf will do.

Disagree. If "feeling powerful" is the cornerstone of game design, then why don't we just give every enemy 1hp and let us oneshot entire maps of the strongest enemies in the game with the press of a button?

As anyone who's played action games before can tell you, that would get stale very fast. There's no fun in playing a game in which your character is never really in danger, especially when the game is advertised as an action-packed shooter instead of a stat-based RPG.

A big part of gaming is to overcome obstacles that the game throws at you. Whether it be from grinding to get your stats up or accumulating skill in the game, challenge is what makes games fun.

Because of this, even heavily stat-based games should retain some challenge if they expect to keep endgame players hooked. Endgame gameplay should be satisfying, but not stupidly easy.

Edited September 4, 2015 by SortaRandom

[7grims]

They need to overhaul the ammo system if they do that.

 

You mean like having a sponge in one hand, and dirt in the other.

You fix in one side and brake it again on the other side.

 

Just like when DE replaced the skill tree with a mod system, but broke the mod system with mandatory damage mods, and ended up with the same result.

Edited September 5, 2015 by 7grims

[Sidathe]

This is absolutely wrong. Making the player feel powerful and competent is the cornerstone of modern game design. This is part of why video games are fun. Warframe, from the ground up, is made to be a horde shooter with you as a badass space ninja single highhandedly cutting through a solar system full of space bugs, corporatists, and fascist clones.

 

I agree that mandatory mods shouldn't be so, and that Multishot itself is. However, if anything needs to be changed it should not be done so to make the player feel weaker. Which is what this nerf will do. 

You can still feel powerful while getting your &#! handed to you on a silver platter. It's probably a terrible way to nerf Multishot, but at least it's more than doing nothing at all. So if it comes, lets just slap it silly until we can work out all the pros and cons, and if they even go deeper into the issue.

[egregiousRac]

So are you a Grineer or Corpus Spy?

 

We're freaking Tenno! We are Era Ending, Civilization Destroying, Void Banished Space Ninjas! Sitting there and saying that every enemy is supposed to be some super special encounter is kind of dumb.

 

For the Grineer, the day that Excalibur visited their base was the most important day of their lives. For me it was Tuesday.

 

Being an unstoppable force doesn't make for a good game though. This is a game that has content to last for literally thousands of hours, but is a cakewalk for nearly all of that.

 

Take all the mods off your frame, take an unmodded starting weapon, and go play around on Mercury again. You have to actually think about how you are playing, you have to focus targets, but it is about right for the beginning of the game. Not too hard.

Now put all your mods back on and go face Ceres or Pluto (the highest content that is designed to be fought). You die a decent amount faster, about in line with what you would be expecting from the endgame, but you slaughter enemies in droves.

 

Now go mod your weapons so that they have a similar time to kill against level 35 guys as the Mk1 Braton did against level 3 guys. Face that Ceres or Pluto mission again, and you will find everything seems much more tactical and balanced. Bows/Snipers can take hard targets quickly, but suffer against groups. Shotguns are the kings up close. Rifles are versatile, but don't excel anywhere. Balance.

If the game were tuned as I suggest, drop tables would have to be boosted considerably. The fact is that them being terrible is really only a recent thing, partially as a response to the game being too easy. We can get ten, fifteen, or even twenty rewards from a single defence/survival mission, which means not all of those rewards will be good. If weapons were falling off at 20 minutes of a T4 there would be no need for junk.

 

Things like the damage caps on bosses, nullifier shields, and manics are also a response to this imbalance. The numeric gap between a low level player and a high level player is so great that you can't have something tuned to be handleable by a low level player without making it pointless to a high level player.

If the imbalance is resolved, all of these hated systems can go away.

Edited September 4, 2015 by egregiousRac

[MrJxt]

If this change goes through then ammo replenishment will need to be revisited.

 

Automatic weapons should have much larger max ammo pools than semi-automatic weapons.

 

I like the idea of ammo pickup/restoration becoming % of max ammo instead of a flat amount.

[Oishii]

Multishot is required for t4/ceres? What? Go to ceres or a t4 anything but an endless mission, unequip multishot from a fully forma'd potatoed weapon watch as you still kill enemies in .1 second by aiming at their foot. I remember when I first got into warframe and actually aiming at grineer heads because it killed enemies significantly faster

 

Oh noes people are going to go from killing dudes in .1 second to .19 seconds while still aiming at the general direction of enemies and spraying how terrible, better riot now! My press 4 draco runs did not prepare me for this!

Edited September 4, 2015 by Oishii

[egregiousRac]

This is absolutely wrong. Making the player feel powerful and competent is the cornerstone of modern game design. This is part of why video games are fun. Warframe, from the ground up, is made to be a horde shooter with you as a badass space ninja single highhandedly cutting through a solar system full of space bugs, corporatists, and fascist clones.

 

I agree that mandatory mods shouldn't be so, and that Multishot itself is. However, if anything needs to be changed it should not be done so to make the player feel weaker. Which is what this nerf will do. 

 

Warframe was not made to be a horde shooter. It has become a horde shooter because they implemented a poorly planned scaling system.

 

In the skill tree era it was much less of a slaughterhouse. The Hek had to be nerfed because it was way stronger than anything else, and it wasn't even close to the power that it is now.

[AutumnBramble]

Like, so say this change hits, and I have a grakata, and I wanna kill a Grineer. I fire my multi-shot grakata for a full second, and it kills the Grineer, and now I need a bunch of ammo. Okay, so I take off multishot, but now I do less damage, so I have to fire my grakata for like, two full seconds to kill that same Grineer, and I'm probably out nearly the same amount of ammo? 

 

There will still be literally no reason to not use multi-shot instead like the OP says it just necessitates using ammo mutators on all your guns. 

 

I mean all these people not wanting it to be a horde shooter, I mean, at this point this isn't even about multi-shot this is about wanting the game to change into a slow shooter or something where you take several minutes to clear each tile. Grinding would get so tedious. Imagine syndicate missions taking three times as long because you have to take every enemy as a super-serious threat and respond to it with all your focus and pbbbbbbbt.

Edited September 4, 2015 by AutumnBramble

[(XBOX)BLK THORN]

I understand the issue but I am going to watch the dust settle about this change because DE will have to buff the ammo economy on ALL weapons in the game. I want and hope to see them implement this change the right way.

Edited September 4, 2015 by (XB1)BLK THORN

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Warframe was not made to be a horde shooter. It has become a horde shooter because they implemented a poorly planned scaling system.

 

I only came into Warfram in U7 but I have to say what the hek are you talking about? From that point until now, the game has been about mulching huge hordes of numerically superior but qualitatively inferior enemies. And this was before the endless scaling system really became apparent.

 

Anyway, MJ's completely right. You're not going to fix this game by nerfing multishot. You're gonna have to rework the enemy scaling, DE, and rework it hard.

[egregiousRac]

Like, so say this change hits, and I have a grakata, and I wanna kill a Grineer. I fire my multi-shot grakata for a full second, and it kills the Grineer, and now I need a bunch of ammo. Okay, so I take off multishot, but now I do less damage, so I have to fire my grakata for like, two full seconds to kill that same Grineer, and I'm probably out nearly the same amount of ammo? 

 

There will still be literally no reason to not use multi-shot instead like the OP says it just necessitates using ammo mutators on all your guns. 

 

I mean all these people not wanting it to be a horde shooter, I mean, at this point this isn't even about multi-shot this is about wanting the game to change into a slow shooter or something where you take several minutes to clear each tile. Grinding would get so tedious. Imagine syndicate missions taking three times as long because you have to take every enemy as a super-serious threat and respond to it with all your focus and pbbbbbbbt.

 

Multishot would be more an alternative or additional fire rate mod post-change instead of being a damage mod.

 

Saying that there is no reason not to take it is like saying there is no reason not to take fire rate. There are reasons, namely ammo usage. You trade ammo usage for faster killing, where you could put on more elementals instead.

 

 

Research what the game used to be like some time. There have been a ton of mechanical improvements since then, but the core gameplay has changed considerably simply due to the player's weapon strength. Missions have much higher enemy counts, missions are larger in general, drop tables are diluted, and enemies have much hated damage caps.

[Fullmetal_Underpants]

I feel very dreaded by this "fix". I mean yes, it's more logical, but as the OP said, ammo mutation will be mandatory on ALL automatic weapons and ALL shotguns. I'm not even talking about secondaries at this point. Bullet-hose and beam weapons are all going to be beyond trash. Forget about your Grakatas.

 

The change in this style isn't gonna fix anything and is only gonna make the problem worse, because the ridiculous enemy scaling and unfair drop tables aren't going anywhere. And as far as we know DE, never will.

 

If a weapon doesn't use a multishot mod, its killing potential is halved at minimum. We shouldn't forget, that crits will occur less. Status procs will occur less too. This makes the content even thrice as hard to beat. 4xCP shall be pretty much mandatory as well.

 

I have watched the stream and Glen said, that they're gonna rebalance the weapons and it's gonna be fine an all... Well, definitely ain't gonna be fine. I'm not sure DE realizes, that they have to rebalance EVERY SINGLE WEAPON for them to not require multishot. It's a tremendous amount of work and i'm sure it won't be done decently.

 

Multishot nerf doesn't seem like a sober and well thought out decision.

 

As it is now, i'm against this change.

ffs, we can't even get them to re-balance weapons without screwing multi-shot over completely.

Multishot would be more an alternative or additional fire rate mod post-change instead of being a damage mod.

 

Saying that there is no reason not to take it is like saying there is no reason not to take fire rate. There are reasons, namely ammo usage. You trade ammo usage for faster killing, where you could put on more elementals instead.

 

 

Research what the game used to be like some time. There have been a ton of mechanical improvements since then, but the core gameplay has changed considerably simply due to the player's weapon strength. Missions have much higher enemy counts, missions are larger in general, drop tables are diluted, and enemies have much hated damage caps.

changing multi-shot to consume extra ammunition would basically work out to being the same thing as taking 100%+ fire rate mods, utterly pointless with the existence OF fire rate mods.

[RiouHotaru]

The whole point of the multishot nerf is to increase build variety. Forcing people to using another mod to compensate for Multishot reduces build variety. While not using Multishot at all reduces build usability. Forcing the player to make such a such a choice is not fun game design.

 

Changing multishot this way doesn't make it not-mandatory, it makes it actively detrimental to the game.

 

Also, if you're not meant to go that far in endless missions, why have them be endless at all?

 

You missed the entire first part of my argument:

 

"Just don't use it if you don't think it's worth the ammo."

 

It's a choice now.  Rather than being mandatory, it's a trade-off.  Sure you get close to double or even triple your DPS outcome.  At a proportionate increase to your ammo consumption.

 

You don't HAVE to use it.  It's absolutely in no way necessary even to endgame builds.

 

Again, 120 minutes of Survival and 60 rounds of Defense is a great thing to achieve, but it's not something the game will ever be balanced around.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Im amazed with that statment, and also of the so many upvotes...

Multishot and serration are huge problems, I rather see them gone or fixed.

 

Multishot and serration are only huge problems because of their interplay with utterly broken enemy scaling, because they are the only thing that really lets you kill in high level (70+) play. You can't fix multishot and serration without fixing this. You can't fix this issue by just changing gun stats around because right now the multishot damage is necessary in the threat environment we face.

 

 

And all your worries are obvious things DE will take in mind once they see that basic players DPS as been decreased.

It's obvious DE doesn't want us to loose 100% of the time, warframe would be a very stupid game, so its obvious they will take that in mind.

 

Just like DE took acrid into mind when they went to damage 2.0, right? Just like the dual ether blades retained their uniqueness in damage 2.0, right? Just like DE buffed scythes when they were buffing heavy weapons, just like they buffed detron/bronco/pyrana when they were buffing primary shotguns, right?

 

Fact is, DE's approach to balancing these things has been hugely haphazard in the past, so a lot of people aren't willing to assume they'll suddenly get it right on the first try.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

The one major question I have is how this would even work with shotguns.Because say you have 10 pellets per shot.With hells chamber you now always fire 22 (120% multishot), or the equivalent of 2.2 shots.So would you only use 2 shells or 3? Because using an entire extra shell for only 1/5th of a shot would just be unfair.Multishot just doesn't work the same way on shotgun type weapons so I'm just curious how they will make this change affect them.

I'd leave it the same on shotguns in terms of ammo consumption in that they are actually flechete/buckshot-type rounds...but adopt the more shots, less damage per shot that you see on corrupt fire rate mods like Anemic. Overal it would be a +2/-1 type of ratio but shotguns would benefit.

Maybe that's a different mod...

Edited September 4, 2015 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Kaisty]

I'm sure plenty before me probably suggested this for the game, but if not I am just throwing it out there; I do agree that the mandatory mods should be removed and the weapons should get fixed. My idea involves that the mandatory damage mods effects should be tied to both the weapon levels and how many polarity / formas on the weapon. For the example, I will use serration.

 

E.G.

For each three levels, another point of serration/ would be added to the weapon, unless it has a polarity. So the Braton would hit max serration level at level 30, but give it a forma and instead it starts with two points in the weapon, thus lowering the level for Max serration to 24. Each polarity would cut down six points till you reach five polarities and your weapon at unranked would start with max serration on it. For every forma after that, it could add more damage / do nothing / or possibly include something extra for the weapon that is fully polarized.

 

As for the reimbursement for those maxing said mods, that would have to be up to DE on how to give the players what could be considered fair trade for such a change. And if DE ever needed ideas to possibly improve their game better, they need to either possibly contact companies that have shown a bit more skill at fixing weapon balances (Gearbox) and asking for tips or possibly play some of the other games and get ideas from them so that these changes won't feel as jarring as they do now.

[painterman]

All of this "multishot nerf/rebalance" its a bit weird because for a long time it touches something that needs looking at: and thats progresion as a whole, including weaps dmg and enemy scale. On one part im ok with this change, is what it should do, its the first thing we you see the multishot mods " O, a mod that alows me to fire 2 shots at once, it must consume double the ammo, Wait, it donst? nice" and will make it, at least for me, an optional mod in most of the weaps. But there is a mayor problem with this, and thats the low-magacine weaps, and the ones oriented to one-shoting things(hek, TIGRIS, snipers, sibarys, launchers, etc etc, and dont even count the secondarys with 180% and 5 magazine). On the primary side, it is a huge nerf to most of one-shot weaps but not counting ones with a lot of firerate because they will mostly get a ammo buff. On the secondary this means that the long king of secondarys got nerfed to the ground again( the brakk), and its counterpack(the detron) is also now mostly useles. 

 

A lot of people will say: well, dont use multishot now. And i will respond: but i still need the same dmg to kill a enemy. A great example of this is using a hek, no forma, at 30 you will usually use one combo, multishot and primed point blanck. With this you should one-shot a lot of things, and can shot 4 times in a row, after the change, and if the ammo wont get fixed, you will loose half of your dmg because you cant use multishot: a 2 round shotgun with half the dmg it was doing, but no enemy nerf to compensate. And you forgot that it exclusive mod just hives 200% multishot, so you make a 4 round shotgun into a 1 round shotgun, with 2 sec reload, just to do the same dmg you did before.

 

As it was said: enemy rebalancing is needed, a maxed lv weap shoud be fine in the solar system, not necesary in the void, but at least make it usable on ceres, not a pea shooter. PS: this also brings up again the remobal of serration and the rebalancing of the whole enemy.

 

Sorry for my bad english :P