Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[VoidNomade]

Just Scotts way to nerf shotguns.

 

 

 

 

That´s all there´s to say about this.

[painterman]

Unless this change comes with enemy scaling and armor rebalance, its gona be bad, very bad. Now we just will do half the dmg on shotguns/secondarys/one-shot tipe weaps.

[Lost_Cartographer]

Multishot and serration are only huge problems because of their interplay with utterly broken enemy scaling, because they are the only thing that really lets you kill in high level (70+) play. You can't fix multishot and serration without fixing this. You can't fix this issue by just changing gun stats around because right now the multishot damage is necessary in the threat environment we face.

No one's forcing us to go an hour into a survival or longer.  DE is only really obligated to give us the tools to make it to the first C rotation within a survival/defense run.  Beyond that?  The whole idea behind enemy scaling is that eventually they'll get to the point where we just can't compete with our enemies.  Whether that happens against level 60 or level 100 enemies, that really isn't DE's concern in the slightest. hence why they don't readily keep feeding us better weapons and mods despite everyone's desire for them.  What are they going to use them for?  To go another 5 minutes?  

 

DE doesn't have to fix "utterly broken enemy scaling" for the simple fact that it's all on the players to go as far as they do with the tools provided.  The infinite scaling is doing exactly as intended when enemies finally become too tough to kill and so dangerous they can one shot us.

 

DE is a bit obligated to make sure our rapid fires don't go dry with a tap of a button, but this has been a long standing issue for a while.  The loss of mandatory multi-shot is just going to bring that issue to the fore front.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Littleman88

[Bensaul]

So pretty much Multishot is gonna be a corrupted mod and a variant of fire rate mods. 

 

      You'd need extra rounds mods for low-ammo clip weapons for it to be at least a bit of a counter for this. (And due to Hek's maximum multishot you'd be shooting at a rate of 0.50/s without reload/extra rounds mods).

 

      You'd see yourself always needing ammo in missions due to the burning of rounds because of this mod, sure, you can just take it off, but what would happen if a random encounter such as Loka Eximus appeared?

 

      Consider the following - Endless missions like survival. What do you need a lot of in those? Ammo. What do you expend a lot of with the new kinda multishot? Ammo. What happens when you don't have ammo? A multitude of bad things to you. 

 

I understand the issue but I am going to watch the dust settle about this change because DE will have to buff the ammo economy on ALL weapons in the game. I want and hope to see them implement this change the right way.

     

      As BLK THORN said, DE would have to buff the ammo economy on all the weapons, but the thing is, the time saved with multishot is a life saver, the time needed to reload again would be put to getting cover instead of staying to fight with the enemy.

 

      It would disrupt the rifles with burst fire rates.

      

      Weapons with low rounds per clip would have to sacrifice a mod slot for extra rounds per clip, and another mod for extra ammo, and another one for reload speed.

    

      

      Even if this nerf is in the name of balance, there will always be the existance of better weapons.

 

so ye, don ac dum

[(PSN)inuyasha279]

They want give multishot a downside to ammo because it's "mandatory", while wanting it for melee...

[Cpl_Facehugger]

No one's forcing us to go an hour into a survival or longer.  DE is only really obligated to give us the tools to make it to the first C rotation within a survival/defense run.  Beyond that?  The whole idea behind enemy scaling is that eventually they'll get to the point where we just can't compete with our enemies.  Whether that happens against level 60 or level 100 enemies, that really isn't DE's concern in the slightest. hence why they don't readily keep feeding us better weapons and mods despite everyone's desire for them.  What are they going to use them for?  To go another 5 minutes?  

 

DE doesn't have to fix "utterly broken enemy scaling" for the simple fact that it's all on the players to go as far as they do with the tools provided.  The infinite scaling is doing exactly as intended when enemies finally become too tough to kill and so dangerous they can one shot us.

 

DE is a bit obligated to make sure our rapid fires don't go dry with a tap of a button, but this has been a long standing issue for a while.  The loss of mandatory multi-shot is just going to bring that issue to the fore front.

 

I'll take "what is raids for 500, Littleman."

 

Raids start at level 70 and get to level 110 or thereabouts. DE is obliged to make it so that I and my team of 7 other tenno can complete raids for so long as gameplay enhancing tools are available solely from that content. Meganerfing multishot in this way makes that significantly more difficult. To put it mildly.

 

So no, DE needs to fix their broken enemy scaling if they want to nerf player damage, because right now the damage and CC players have access to is the only thing letting us keep our heads above water here in DE approved endgame content.

 

The fact that this nerf is the final nail in teh coffin of all automatic pistols is just the topping on the poo sandwich, not the whole sandwich.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Batwing]

+1 to nerfing enemy scaling before changing the way our mods work

[(PSN)inuyasha279]

Planning for a nerf that won't affect multishot melee for the most part...

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

need to bloody equip a Mutation mod

Oh, good. Even more required mods.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

OP is right. People will just use mutators. In it's current stat you will not be able to survive a t4 survival without multishot. 

 

I am for the multishot removal as it can increase modding variety if done in conjunction with other tweaks. The problem now resides in enemy scaling, it scales too quiclky. Not only does health and sheild grow, but armor as well and that is the issue here.

 

Armor is the bane of warframe's damage system

[SicSlaver]

I'm not going to read through 18 pages of this thread, but I'll add that I welcome the change! Now it'll actually make sense like how I assumed it would work in the first place. I welcome this new challenge!

[VDeorsum]

good, now ammo mutations become mandatory...

Even more required mods 

Edited September 5, 2015 by VDeorsum

[AceAken]

DE's proposed change does nothing to make multishot less required. All they are doing is turning it into a

corrupted mod (+multishot -ammo effeciency)

Yea but it's not a corrupted mod.

I like how DE complains about the fact that Serration, Shred (I never use that but meeh), and Multishot are overused.

Okay then try to do a freaking mission without Serration and Multishot, do a t4 exterminate solo with an unmodded braton I'm curious.

This nerf is going to break the game, everyones build is going to die because we all have used a forma for that V polarity.

I don't understand why DE "complains" about overused mods, well duh they're not overused, they're NECESSARY. I don't want to empty a full Soma prime magazine in the head just to kill 1 bombard, and this is how it's gonna end with this multishot nerf. And what will happen to weapons with low mags like Tigris, Vectis or any bow ? Dual secondaries will be useless.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I'm not going to read through 18 pages of this thread, but I'll add that I welcome the change! Now it'll actually make sense like how I assumed it would work in the first place. I welcome this new challenge!

 

So you're okay with rendering all automatic weapons garbage then? Because that's what you're saying here. You're okay with all automatics needing ammo mutation to compensate for this nerf? Because that's another thing you're saying.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

You don't HAVE to use it.  It's absolutely in no way necessary even to endgame builds.

 

So you're another man to add into the "I cannot into raid" category then?

Because lol trying to kill five level 101 bombards in nightmare raid before one of them blows you off your pad and thus kills your whole team without the damage boost from multishot lowering your TTK.

[--DSP--]

This is dumb... this is soooo dumb. All they are doing is making weapons with less ammo efficient useless.

[BluelitHalo]

Now that we're on this topic...

The way it is now, the entire Mod system is just a mutable, non-permanent skill tree. so it's fair game that we grow our power through it with "required mods".  It's like how you require a high STR stat for a Warrior character in a typical MMO.  DE has been developing upon this foundation for years, many DPS-boosting "required" Mods have been released over time, and it also makes up a good chunk of the game's progression system to keep pumping Fusion Cores into the Mods and max them out.  Nerfing one mod is a terrible solution because we'll just go down the slippery slope of what the next best Mod is.

However, if they're gonna start nerfing Mods because "they're required", if they're gonna make the Mod system... an actual Mod system, then they shouldn't do it piece-by-piece.  They should be including this in one massive rework of the Mods so that we don't get some wonky, inconsistent system that doesn't know what it wants to be.  

 

I'm not shy to see nerfs happen to my gear unlike most people, but this solution seems like nothing more than a band-aid.

Edited September 5, 2015 by AzureEmulation

[Deruser]

It probably wouldn't be that bad to damage, you can always add another elemental damage mod, or a bane mod. It's pretty reasonable imo.

[Hueminator]

We now have more cause to ask for clip size, reload mod, and the regular status chance buff.

[EmptyDevil]

I'm not too worried about this change. I expect DE will do the necessary tweaking to all weapons, like they said.

 

I agree that something needs to be done about enemy stat scaling. They shouldn't have armor, health, AND damage scale infinitely. There has to be a sweet spot where their stats stop growing but they continue to remain a challenge without 1 shotting every frame. At the very least it would be fine if health scaled infinitely while armor and damage gets a cap.

[Nalesh]

Disagree. If "feeling powerful" is the cornerstone of game design, then why don't we just give every enemy 1hp and let us oneshot entire maps of the strongest enemies in the game with the press of a button?

As anyone who's played action games before can tell you, that would get stale very fast. There's no fun in playing a game in which your character is never really in danger, especially when the game is advertised as an action-packed shooter instead of a stat-based RPG.

A big part of gaming is to overcome obstacles that the game throws at you. Whether it be from grinding to get your stats up or accumulating skill in the game, challenge is what makes games fun.

Because of this, even heavily stat-based games should retain some challenge if they expect to keep endgame players hooked. Endgame gameplay should be satisfying, but not stupidly easy.

Sorry but let's look at a game like the souls series, insanely difficult, will punish you for the smallest miss steps,

 

Feeling powerful doesn't mean no challenge.

[Lost_Cartographer]

I'll take "what is raids for 500, Littleman."

 

Raids start at level 70 and get to level 110 or thereabouts. DE is obliged to make it so that I and my team of 7 other tenno can complete raids for so long as gameplay enhancing tools are available solely from that content. Meganerfing multishot in this way makes that significantly more difficult. To put it mildly.

 

So no, DE needs to fix their broken enemy scaling if they want to nerf player damage, because right now the damage and CC players have access to is the only thing letting us keep our heads above water here in DE approved endgame content.

 

The fact that this nerf is the final nail in teh coffin of all automatic pistols is just the topping on the poo sandwich, not the whole sandwich.

One example out of many a standard does not make.  Further, it's a game mode intentionally designed to be hard and ran with a group.  You're expected to have 8 Tenno in mission - try for some coordinated focus fire.  Literally every other mission/mode can be run solo.  Effortlessly.  Further, if raids do become too difficult, they can always readjust enemy levels within those raids.  It's well within their abilities to do so.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Littleman88

[7grims]

Multishot and serration are only huge problems because of their interplay with utterly broken enemy scaling, because they are the only thing that really lets you kill in high level (70+) play. You can't fix multishot and serration without fixing this. You can't fix this issue by just changing gun stats around because right now the multishot damage is necessary in the threat environment we face.

 

well, they arent fixing this so they can fix the broken enemy scale.

we always gonna have bad balancing and bad enemy scaling, would rather see all those damage mods removed, so the game can be properly balanced, and so we dont need mandatory mods to reach high levels.

 

sadly even this fix is not the ultimate solution, but im glad DE is looking into it, let them break their game as they do over and over, sooner or later they will realize they need to make real decisions and real solutions.

cause we all know DE and their bad band aids, seems they need to fail allot to finally get it right.

Edited September 5, 2015 by 7grims

[(PSN)ToastyFairy01]

I try to avoid these kinds of discussions because there's so much knee jerking that I could swear that they're having seizures.

[TheBrsrkr]

More overreactions. Let's see what it is this time....

The ostensible rationale for nerfing multishot is this. It's a "required mod" which reduces player choice.

 

The problem is, because multishot is a required mod, nerfing multishot isn't going to work. The same number of people will use it, they'll just run ammo mutators to reduce the drain of ammunition efficiency. Far from solving the problem of required mods, this change will just increase the number of required mods in the game.

THis would, if it bothers you so much. be true if you still needed  multishot, or if you really needed it in the first place. You now have the choice of NOT using it, if it bothers you so much.

 

To deal with multishot, we have to understand why it's a necessary mod, and why adding ammo consumption won't make it less necessary. After doing so, I will point out what is necessary to fix the issue this fix is intended to deal with.

IT's a necessary mod because all id does is "hurr durr 2x damage" with no drawbacks whatsoever. It's not hard to get. It's not hard to rank up. It doesn't interact with any other thing but damage and status, and it effectively DOUBLES the effectiveness of base damage. On RIFLES. It's even worse on pistols. At least shotguns have pellet count, which means you actually have to try to get the full damage instead of doing the exact same thing at twice the effectiveness. The only downside to using them is the 15 modpoints, in which case.....

 

Why is Multishot Necessary?

 

Multishot is necessary because in endgame content, such as T4 Voids, raids, and arguably even things like Pluto/Ceres, enemy health has scaled to a point where weapon damage is starting to fall drastically behind enemy health. Enemies require significantly more time to kill, which gives them more time to deal damage, and since their damage has also increased, this can get very lethal. Multishot helps make up this difference. By doubling or tripling your damage per second, it cuts down the time an enemy will survive by a significant degree.

Untrue. Realistically, tell me, how long does it actually take to kill an enemy? Oftentimes by my count it's 1 second thereabouts per enemy, not counting punch through. Until you get about 30 minutes into a survival, it barely makes any difference except in the really heavy ones like Bombards or Ancient Healer protected enemies. That isn't because of multishot alone, DPS is general on weapons is extremely high to the enemy's relative health until you get past the turning point that scaling suddenly ramps up for no reason.

Why is the Proposed Multishot Nerf Actively Counterproductive?

 

Compare, for example, the Braton Mk-1 and the Braton Prime. The Braton Prime has superior stats in almost all areas but spare ammunition, but its primary superiority is in damage. The Braton Prime does 35 damage compared to the Mk1 Braton's 18-a bit more than 190% the damage! ...coincidentally, rifle multishot adds +90% to your weapon's damage. +90% damage is the difference between a very good weapon, capable of taking you through all but the highest-leveled content, and a trash weapon that everyone recommends you shelve the moment you've done the missions necessary to get a better one.

 

This should demonstrate that the proposed fix, which makes multishot consume additional ammunition, doesn't fix anything. Nobody's going to take a Mk1-Braton into a T4S or T4D. Nobody. They're going to keep their multishot mod on their gun, and instead they're going to stick an ammo mutator in their gun to make up for the increased drain, which coincidentally leads to reduced, not increased loadout choice. Far from freeing up a mod slot for customization, you've eliminated one since now it's not just Split Chamber + Serration that's mandatory for a rifle, but Split Chamber + Serration + Rifle Ammo Mutator.

 

This fix does not succeed in even doing what it's intended to do, let alone achieving any other objectives. It is a bad idea.

What really sets the Braton Prime apart from the Braton, and indeed most other weapons, is the high status chance and Slash based damage, which ignores armor, and therefore can still function well against armore enemies.

It's 75% more damage, actually. Fake math calculations, ho! (see what I did there? Huh? Huh? Nevermind.)

Rifle multishot does not add 90% damage. It adds another bullet, with the same stats as the first, 90% of the time. The Pistol multishot mod gives you a guaranteed extra bullet with a 20% chance to spawn a THIRD bullet.

90% damage would be a big deal if we didn't do so much overkill damage. Seriously, using a build with Fanged Fulisade, 4x 90% elemental mod, 1 60% elemental mod and base damage mods is 9408 Burst damage per second. That is still WAY more than an enemy's effective HP on Ceres or T4, for a good long while. And it isn't even the best build out there, it's actually pretty horrible as Braton Prime builds go.

Again, just because YOU want to keep using multishot doesn't mean that EVERYONE is going to need multishot. If YOU want to waste another slot on Ammo Mutatoions, be my guest. If YOU can't keep your finger off the trigger, fine by me. However, don't suggest that you speak for EVERYONE when you say it reduces your mod freedom.

 

So How Would You Fix It?

 

Well if I could tell DE how to fix their game and they'd do it for me, I'd run the company, and I don't do that, do I? But here's some food for thought.

 

The problem with required mods is simply this-you need the mods to increase your damage to the point where you can quickly take down the hordes of enemies that appear in a survival or defense. A 20 minute T2 survival will net you more than 500 kills-that's one enemy killed every 2 seconds. This is fun-murdering your way through battalions of enemy soldiers is the best part of Warframe. But it means that you need to be able to kill each of them quickly.

And till 20, you will perform almost as well with multishot as without. Using the same Braton Prime with my crap build, you can hold your own since EHP isn't too near to 9000 at that point, heavy or not.

 

 

If you're going to want to eliminate required mods, the solution needs to make weapons viable in these situations without mods. I don't mean without multishot-I mean without any mods. No Serration, no Split Chamber, no elemental mods. This will either require enemy scaling to be adjusted or for weapons to gain damage while leveling up, or some form of both. Adding in elements of both will probably be most optimal.

 

Furthermore, weapon damage mods would have to be adjusted heavily. Call of Duty has demonstrated that if you're competing with utility mods, something like a +30-40% increase in total damage is about what you can expect to trade off against something like +100% reload speed (i.e. a utility mod). Assuming total damage is increased additively, the utility mods become more tempting as each damage mod creates a lower proportional decrease in time to kill.

Firstly, that's going to take a complete overhaul of almost every system in the game.

No, I'm serious. Somehow, a weapon has to be weak enough to not ROFLstomp it's way through the lower [planets and still keep up on the higher ones in a non-variable manner. Abilities are going to have to be toned down so that they compete with but not replace guns, and good luck with that when you're suggesting nerfs across the board. Which means energy nees to be less available, which means a whole lot of more ability balanceing to go with the weapon balancing. Then you actually have to buff every utility mod on both rifles and snipers in a way that they don't conflict, and make Forma and potatoes still viable. It's not a bad idea, but it's way too much work to feasibly implement in a timely manner At least your post isn't as ragey and outrageous as the others..