Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

NO, you do NOT get to use the 'magic' excuse for this one. That is a statement from ignorance. And we cannot use ignorance in a game. We try to explain things rationally, so lets stick to that shall we?

Clues in the titles champ, "split" and "diffusion", the bullet is split, no magic required. Choice of name also casts doubts on the whole bug excuse too really.

[Deshiel]

That I agree would be harder to explain, unless it was somekind of special arrow that splits in midair. Also not everything is meant to be logical for example during previous devstream someone asked about multishot for melee weapons, and DE shown interest in the idea, now please someone explain to me how would it work with our laws of physics. also I want to see them balance multishot for melee weapons that dont use ammo....

 

I wonder... If multishot has no effect on simulor, will it still double the cost of ammunition?

[(PSN)whoistimjones]

Be a good playstation4 player, turn a page back and read my full conversation with that guy.

No thx.

[TheKurtiStryke]

multishot'new changes....just nope............no De no....nope stap dat,just no pee,no.....NOOOO De,bad De don't do dat,i sayd no.noooo.NO,NOOO bad De

 

......de don't touch the multishot's change on the fridge....DON'T touch,come down from the chair and be a good spaceninja

[Culaio]

I wonder... If multishot has no effect on simulor, will it still double the cost of ammunition?

 

Thats a really good question.

 

Also about multishot for melee weapons: I really REALLY want it, why ? because.."Tsubame Gaeshi"

 

"It is a technique where three concurrent arching blades close on the enemy from all sides to create a prison, allowing no chance for defense or evasion. While he downplays it as simply successive slashes, it is actually bending the laws of physics to multiply its existence. It starts with a flash from this world, followed by two absolutely simultaneous, over-lapping flashes that disregard the concept of time and space, producing a slash attack that arrives from three different directions."(type moon wiki)

 

[Culaio]

They finally made Multishot make sense. When I first got it, I though shooting an extra bullet would cost extra ammo. But it didn't. I thought it was weird, but I rolled with it.

You can't just expect to shoot extra bullets but not consume additional ammo. That's not how guns work.

 

You do realize that there is perfectly resonable explanation for two bullets per cartridge/ammo right ? its called duplex ammo, in this type of ammo there are two bullets per cartridge and since they are same size as normal bullets, 100 duplex ammo will take same amount of space as 100 normal ammo but have 200 bullets.

 

And since we have mods that can turn one type of ammo into another there is no reason why multishot mod cant turn normal ammo into duplex.

 

explanation how it works.

[low1991]

Clues in the titles champ, "split" and "diffusion", the bullet is split, no magic required. Choice of name also casts doubts on the whole bug excuse too really.

+1.

Maybe what DE meant to say was a name change & multishot change?

Multishot = chance to fire more shots (aka speed trigger)

or

Change to Bullet Split, chance to split a bullet while firing.

[SPP-1]

IT IS QUALITY OF LIFE 2.0, THEY WILL NEVER RECONSIDER THIS AND WILL PROCEED WITH IT ANYWAY.

 

Just brace your asses for the nerf . Whatever protests you shout out, they will not listen to it because "Quality of Life".

[MaverickZero]

IT IS QUALITY OF LIFE 2.0, THEY WILL NEVER RECONSIDER THIS AND WILL PROCEED WITH IT ANYWAY.

 

Just brace your asses for the nerf . Whatever protests you shout out, they will not listen to it because "Quality of Life".

We'll all be puking quality at that point and we're still gonna like it.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

I find it kinda funny, because despite any outrage these decisions cause, DE has already made up their minds and this thing is going live no matter what we do.

 

And there's no chance we'll show them that these were bad decisions by cutting their income at once. There's no way entire community would stop paying and playing Warframe to show DE that they seriously foxtroted up.

 

It's Hydroid quality of life all over again...

 

Oh, haha, this guy over me.

 

Quo vadis DE

Edited September 5, 2015 by Mofixil

[Leuca]

Do you honestly believe that they're capable of reworking 151 weapons(Current number for Primary and Secondary combined), while currently 20-30 of those are the only ones that'd be viable to take into an endless mission if you're going past 20, with almost all of those requiring multishot to be able to kill stuff efficiently?

Yes.

Nobody said it was going to be a walk in the park, but seriously, get over it. This is not something that will break the game by any means if they execute it properly. It isn't going to change how most weapons functionally operate or feel.

[TheBrsrkr]

Ideally, they should all hit the same enemy. That's not counting the AoE or Punch Through effect. Explosives are the only thing that you might want a little divergence on.

The problem with that is that explosives already had their ammo nerfed twice. This is going to kill their usefulness. The Angstrum use to be my favorite pistol in the game; it was just too cool. Now? It's too bad that it's crap to use.

(Carpet bombing pistol that already used multiple ammo per shot. Now -1.) shares ammo with primary weapons. -2.) Had it's ammo counts reduced to unreasonably low numbers {that primary weapons can use up}. -3.) Had it's ammo type switch to a rare ammo type in addition to having its count over-nerfed. -4.) Now, in addition to all that, even extra rocket procced will steal additional ammo.)

If DE takes the high road, and is smart instead of lazy, they will stop calling multi-shot a bug, and they will dial it back in a reasonable way. How?

1. GIVE SECONDARY EXPLOSIVE WEAPONS THEIR OWN AMMO TYPE OR SWITCH THEM BACK TO PISTOL AMMO (WITH APPROPRIATE VALUES)

2. MAKE MULTISHOT CONSUME A FRACTION OF THE AMMO AS A REGULAR SHOT (e.g. IF YOU GET FOUR ADDITIONAL SHOTS THEN IT COSTS YOU ONLY ONE ADDITIONAL BULLET). THIS WILL NERF THE SYSTEM WITHOUT MAKING MULTISHOT ENTIRELY MEANINGLESS AND WITHOUT MAKING IT A POORMAN'S FIRERATE.

3. MAKE LAUNCHERS COMPLETELY IMMUNE TO THE ADDITIONAL COSTS OF MULTISHOT.

These three simple changes will let them nerf multishot subtly, without it being a trainwreck of an overnerf. I don't think it will happen, but there you have it.

1 seems a bit unreasonable. A whole ammo type for a subset of a subset? Seems iffy. Just giving them a separate ammo pool or allowing them to pick up regular pistol ammo.

2 wouldn't solve any problem at all. 4shots at the cost of one bullet doesn't limit anything without an extremely tiny clip, and it doesn't even do a good job there since it's 1 bullet. It's going to be just as required with a minor annoyance at the side, that most won't even notice because they're firing so much anyway that 5 or 6 bullets lost isn't a big deal.

3 just makes no sense. Why? Why should you fire double the shots for free unlike every other weapon type?

[MJ12]

Haha, the Dark Souls series was actually exactly what I was thinking about when I made my post. You work your way up and end up feeling incredibly powerful; yet the game remains skill-based all the way through, and even early-game maps can give you a good clobbering if you're not careful. (Or so I hear; I haven't played DS at all. Correct me if I'm mistaken.)

 

When I countered your "the devs shouldn't make us feel any weaker" post from the first page, it was because we're already statistically too powerful for any real challenge to exist (and, for newbies, high-leveled enemies are too powerful for any real challenge to exist). Right now, in terms of "difficulty", this game is pretty much Maplestory dressed up as a shooting game-- regardless of how skilled you are, the outcome of a fight will be determined almost purely by your stats. This is not okay.

I totally agree with you that we can (and should) feel powerful and experience challenge at the same time, but the game is simply too stat-reliant for that to happen. It's pretty much mathematically impossible for a skilled player in crap gear to contribute to a Pluto mission, and it's pretty much mathematically impossible for the most unskilled of minmaxed veterans to die on Mercury (unless he deliberately tries to do so).

 

I'm completely in agreement with the OP-- stat scaling needs to be flattened to an acceptable level, players and AI alike.

 

Dark Souls is very differently designed from Warframe and is, although something people love, probably not a good example to use for difficulty scaling because the way it works is that literally every enemy and encounter is very finely hand-tuned. Dark Souls-style difficulty doesn't work in a game which has random enemy squad composition and map design.

 

I don't think there's really a problem with Warframe being Too Easy outside of the veterans with tons of mods and game experience, or a problem with Warframe being Too Hard-it's more a problem that the difficulty curve is more or less bonkers, with the difference between 'comfortably crushing things,' 'being challenged,' and 'oh god run' being like, 5 minutes in a survival.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

The real issue is that enemy damage so outscales our health that if where not killing stuff in a fraction of a second we just won't survive. It's not that we've got used to killing enemies super fast, it's that killing enemies super fast is necessary if we want to actually complete content without going all out abusing CC.

 

 

This man has a point, If you disagree i suggest you run a raid with the following restrictions.

 

No Corrosive Projection. No Multishot Mods. No Crowd control of any kind. and no frost. Even with max defensive stats you will drop almost instantly.

[MJ12]

Yes.

Nobody said it was going to be a walk in the park, but seriously, get over it. This is not something that will break the game by any means if they execute it properly. It isn't going to change how most weapons functionally operate or feel.

 

It has been a year since Damage 2.0. During this time, the non-dual stat +Status Chance mods have not been changed. Once. They have not been made worth using at any point despite multiple major updates, and despite the only necessary change to those being "let's increase the percentages here." It has been a year since Damage 2.0. During this time, the rifle and shotgun +I/P/S physical damage mods, which everyone knows are so weak as to be emphatically not worth using, have not been adjusted upwards at any point.

 

This is despite Damage 2.0's goal being "making rainbow builds on weapons unnecessary," and making physical damage mods powerful enough to compete with elemental damage ones would accomplish this goal in one fell swoop.

 

Let me remind you of this. It has been a year since DE has inadvertently made nine mods useless, and those mods are still useless today.

[Bachuuu]

It might never happen u know, its just an idea

[Nighttide77]

Just my two cents: I look forward to the removal of mods that you 'have to use' in order to make a weapon viable in pretty much any stage of the game beyond beginning levels. This includes serration, hornet strike, and pressure point.

As well, with the current meta, multi-shot mods are pretty much a necessity for every weapon you can throw them on, with a few exceptions. If these are also made to be more like choices for play-style such that they have an equal downside for their benefit, I wholeheartedly welcome the changes. This will open up mod slots for more options. Choice will be greater.

Of course, there is always the chance things can get screwed up with the introduction of different concepts. There was a chance for Parkour 2.0 to be ruined, but they really got that right, imo. The new conclave mods had a chance to go wrong, and some of them did, but they were reviewed and fixed to be more reasonable.

In light of this, I look forward to what DE plans to implement, from multi-shot mods to the new starchart. Things can be adjusted and fixed, or even reverted. However, over the years, all I've seen is progress from DE, and I'm sure this change will only continue to improve Warframe's evolution for the better.

It would be better to get the full details of DE's plans for multi-shot before dissolving into doom and gloom. DE does listen to their players, but it's more constructive and helpful to be patient than erupt in pessimistic attitudes. Change can be good, and in order for Warframe to keep being a living game, it has to change and adjust.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Nighttide77

[JohnViande]

It's a bit soon to rage over a change that has only be mentioned.

 

Anyway, multishot at the moment is on (or should be on) every viable build on every weapon in the game. If they change that, they have to make deeper changes into the game itself and especially on enemy scaling, armor and all this, or it's just going to trigger a civil war on the forums.

[ra9una]

I don't know... The thing that's really scaring me, is that I just can't see them reworking everything well, it's just too much work to accommodate one, small, weird *** change. Here's hoping for the best, but I'm still a little antsy.

[Blackout751]

See you in Update 18.

[CataReverb]

Oh, I have a miniature violin somewhere... Nope, that's my six forma synoid gammacor that I haven't used since its first nerf.

[I-Am-MoMoJoJo]

Copy and pasting my reply to a similar thread, because I'm lazy.

 

What DE mentioned in the dev stream was that a few mods are basically auto includes in every weapon, so for rifles they specifically said serration, split chamber and shred. Now as far as I know, not everyone auto includes shred, I personally do for the puncture through and I don't wanna waist extra capacity on metal auger. But here's the thing, serration is also an auto include, it's extra damage with no downsides, yea split chamber is damage crit and status with no downsides but its only 90%, not 165%. So I don't think multishot is the issue here, Actually I don't think it's an issue at all personally because with more or less every weapon in the game there is a handful of mods that are always used, and other put in for a certain play style, just like there is for Warframes. Warframes have flow, more energy for free as well as rage and quick thinking which is a staple in a lot of frames and DE incentivised using other mods with an exilus slot, they didn't nerf what was already heavily used. I believe they need to do something similar because nerfing multishot is not the way. P.S. I love it how they said at one point that they never run into ammo issues with really any weapon, I just laughed, there are plenty of fast fireing weapons with the same ammo pool as slower, much harder hitting weapons that I run into ammo problems with a lot, and I'm not even using the fire rate -damage mods.

[I-Am-MoMoJoJo]

Just my two cents: I look forward to the removal of mods that you 'have to use' in order to make a weapon viable in pretty much any stage of the game beyond beginning levels. This includes serration, hornet strike, and pressure point.

As well, with the current meta, multi-shot mods are pretty much a necessity for every weapon you can throw them on, with a few exceptions. If these are also made to be more like choices for play-style such that they have an equal downside for their benefit, I wholeheartedly welcome the changes. This will open up mod slots for more options. Choice will be greater.

 

I agree that multishot, serration, etc. are basically a necessity to make good builds, but, I believe that nerfing multishot into the ground is not the correct way to do things considering the clip and ammo capacity weapons, especially machine pistols. I believe that incentivising using other mods should be the way to go, ya know the old carrot instead of stick approach.

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

I find the fact that DE states that they want to change multishot by making it cost more ammunition to be highly illogical.

 

It has been a part of this game for quite some time and is quite obviously not a bug and yet they tell us it is?

 

I'm sorry but I do not believe that for one second.

 

Using "it's a bug" as an excuse is abhorrent and they apparently want to see how far they can get using that excuse since the coptering was a bug excuse worked. 

 

Know what DE? I have a counterargument. 

 

Remove multishot from the game but double the stats of all weapons that are affected by multishot at the same time as you remove it. 

 

If you just nerf multishot then no one is going to use it so lets just get to the point and remove it entirely. 

Edited September 5, 2015 by P0TAT0CANN0N

[blasron]

You do realize that there is perfectly resonable explanation for two bullets per cartridge/ammo right ? its called duplex ammo, in this type of ammo there are two bullets per cartridge and since they are same size as normal bullets, 100 duplex ammo will take same amount of space as 100 normal ammo but have 200 bullets.

 

And since we have mods that can turn one type of ammo into another there is no reason why multishot mod cant turn normal ammo into duplex.

 

explanation how it works.

 

So such thing ACTUALY exist in the real world. So thats mean that this nerf is more stupid that possible.

 

Its like when they nerf the ammo of braton P i said something in those line:

 

So a canadien infantry man can and have more fire power than a space ninja with surnatural power.